Jade Andrews and Brenda Ford

[00:03] JADE ANDREWS: Hi, story. Hi, storyCorps Atlanta. My name is Jade, and I'm here with Brenda. I'm going to be telling my story of being married to a covert narcissist and coming out of over a decade of hidden abuse.

[00:22] BRENDA FORD: Jade, could you please say today's date just so we have that on the record?

[00:26] JADE ANDREWS: Yes. Today is Saturday, June 24, 2023.

[00:31] BRENDA FORD: And I'm Brenda, and I am here with Jade, who I just met. And we're going to have a. We're going to have a conversation. And today is Saturday, June 24, 2023. We're at StoryCorps Atlanta, and let's dive into it. So the first thing that I'd like to know is just a little bit about your childhood growing up, the kinds of examples of marriage and relationships that you had that kind of shaped your expectations of what would happen to you when you grew up.

[01:05] JADE ANDREWS: Yeah. So I grew up in a large family that was shaped both culturally and also by our faith community. And so marriage was something that was prized. Marriage was something where you waited for marriage, you saved yourself for marriage. Marriage was the goal. I grew up with examples of, like, I was surrounded by couples and family members that have been married for years, decade. Not many divorces that I see, but the marriages weren't healthy. The marriages weren't. You didn't really see joy there. You may have seen happiness, people looking happy, but the marriages weren't healthy. And so growing up, it was, this is the prize. This is what you go for. And if you don't have joy in it, it's okay. But at least you're married. And if you're in it and you don't find joy, you're stuck, because God hates divorce. And so it felt almost like I kind of approached it as well. If I can at least get to marriage, I'll find the right partner. I'll become the right partner, and things will just be different for me. That was kind of my idea or goal with marriage.

[02:34] BRENDA FORD: How young were you when you came to these realizations? Like, when did you know that? Maybe, and if you don't mind giving an example of if it was maybe your grandparents or even your own parents, when. How old were you looking at these relationships and going, something is not. Something is not correct here?

[02:55] JADE ANDREWS: Yeah, I would say one of the earliest memories I had was at the age of six and watching my parents in an argument. And we know people argue back and forth and whatnot, but this was an argument wherever. There wasn't, like, fighting, but there was tussling. And I just remember, I remember watching the lack of resolution afterward, if that makes sense. I was sitting down watching, like, my mom was doing my hair. And I remember my dad had been watching basketball on television. And from nowhere, my mom just changed the channel. And in that moment and that age, I remember thinking, well, she just wanted to change the channel. But in my adulthood now, I'm like, well, that's not nice. That was kind of rude.

[03:55] BRENDA FORD: Maybe instigating something.

[03:57] JADE ANDREWS: Yes, yes, yes, yes. And when she changed the channel, my dad kind of froze a bit and was like, but why did you do that? You know, I was watching it, and it was like, towards the end of the game, too, and they went back and forth a bit. And I remember at the end, you know, one of them ended up with a scratch on their arm. And I remember feeling torn because I'm seeing both of their faces. I love both of my parents. Who do you support? Who do you help? Who do you, you know? And so I remember walking away from that feeling like, well, that's not the right way that marriage should go. Especially when we're growing up in this faith community. We should. There's a different way to solve things. And so it was that kind of confusing, nebulous, kind of vague way that arguments would happen. And then days later, it's, well, that's just how marriage is. You just keep going. You just kind of ignore it. You know? It left me very confused. I think it also painted a picture of who is the real. It was a distortion of who is the real victim and who is not the real victim. I think growing up, I saw in that example that was my father, the one wrong. But in my adulthood, I sit back and I'm like, no, he wasn't doing anything. He was watching a game, you know, and kind of watching how. It's hard to say my mom, but because of the example I'm sharing is now in my adulthood, seeing how there are very subtle ways that people create argument, people create instigation. Yeah.

[05:57] BRENDA FORD: Just the example that you provided just makes me think that there might have been something legitimate that your mom needed to have an argument about or, you.

[06:11] JADE ANDREWS: Know, but didn't know how to articulate it.

[06:13] BRENDA FORD: She didn't know how to dive into it. So she did what in her mind, like, she took the easiest path to starting fight or an argument because there was something real that she needed to talk about. And I'm wondering, and you might not remember, but did they ever get to. Did they ever get to what needed to be discussed? Or was it just purely about the. Did the argument stay about the basketball game on tv?

[06:43] JADE ANDREWS: Yeah. Well, I don't know the specifics around the resolution around the game on tv, but in general, you know, there were periods later on where, you know, they went through, you know, like, marital counseling. There were periods where, you know, they started to get involved with people in the church to try and help resolve, but it never really hit the root of it because there is an odor of conflict that happens. And as kids like you can smell it, it doesn't go away. And that was present throughout childhood. No matter how much you smiled, no matter how much you get up, you put on your clothes, you go to church, there's an odor, you know.

[07:30] BRENDA FORD: Did your parents stay married? Are they still married? Yeah, they're still married.

[07:33] JADE ANDREWS: Yeah, they're actually still married.

[07:34] BRENDA FORD: How many years have they been married?

[07:36] JADE ANDREWS: This is now 30 years.

[07:38] BRENDA FORD: 30 years married. Wow.

[07:39] JADE ANDREWS: So in one sense, you say it's.

[07:40] BRENDA FORD: A blessing because, as you said, that long term marriage is the example that was set, and that was the prize. That's the prize that, that you had in mind regarding relationships.

[07:55] JADE ANDREWS: Yeah, that's the blessing. But then you look back and, man, I wish that some of the tools that I have learned in my own kind of journey, I wish that they had it, you know? So I think also, too, in part, that's why I'm telling the story, too. I think there is a chance, though, for like, a double healing, if that makes sense. There's a healing in the sense that, yeah, my parents made it to 30 years, but I also do think in this season, in this era, there's the chance for. To almost walk through that healing process again. I think it was Allison who mentioned kind of like healing going in spirals now.

[08:38] BRENDA FORD: Allison's Alison's our story core facilitator. She's my colleague. So that's who Allison is.

[08:45] JADE ANDREWS: Yeah. And how healing going in spirals. So I do think that there is room for couples who have been in longer term marriages that may not have been as joyful to have the chance to look again and heal again and revisit.

[09:04] BRENDA FORD: What advice on marriage did you receive before getting married?

[09:08] JADE ANDREWS: Stay married. That was the advice. Stay married.

[09:12] BRENDA FORD: And who did that come from? Everyone.

[09:15] JADE ANDREWS: Mainly the women. The women. Okay. So my mom, aunties, aunties in the community, stay married. Whatever your husband says, just give him what he needs. You know, men are, sometimes men need help, you know, so you just be there for them. Give them the help that they need. Don't fight too much, don't argue too much. Don't raise your voice too much. I think the number one thing, make sure you cook. Cook, cook a lot. Cook well, cook every day. Have options, you know.

[09:48] BRENDA FORD: Was wear makeup part of what you were told?

[09:50] JADE ANDREWS: Funny enough, it wasn't ever associated with marriage, but my mom was someone who believed in how you present yourself as everything. So that was more of like, a personal advice from her to me, but never so much with marriage. It was mainly cook. Cook, yeah.

[10:09] BRENDA FORD: Did you go through. You mentioned being part of a faith community. Did you do premarital counseling through your church?

[10:17] JADE ANDREWS: Yeah, yeah, we did premarital counseling. And the way we did it, I mean, it wasn't as. I think, kind of looking back, it wasn't as in depth as I would have wanted. But then what could one even kind of. You cannot have imagined that this is what you're walking through. You know, kind of in, like, in hindsight, you cannot have imagined that I would be walking through a separation from my partner. So even though I wish it went deeper. Yeah. It didn't kind of touch some of those darker areas. And I think, though, in general, you know, if I could redo premarital counseling, you know, it would be almost having a pastor that would force you to have the hard conversations. I think sometimes we talk about. Well, a, are both of you believers? That's check number one, and I agree with that. B, are both of you. Are you in alignment with big decisions? Do you both want kids? Where do you both want to live? What kind of life do you want? Like, do you want to do ministry? Do you want to work this type of job? You know, these kind of cursory things, we go down and it stops. If one of the main reasons for divorce is abuse, why don't we talk about abuse and premarital counseling? If one of the main reasons for separation is adultery or having affairs or pornography or just not wanting to be, why don't we talk about those things? And if one of the main things that, you know, one of the two things that I heard was always taught when it came to marriage and my church and my faith community, Washington. A, God loves marriage. B, God hates divorce. So if the main thing that we're going to give to people getting married is that God hates divorce, then we should make sure we are teaching what a healthy, biblical marriage looks like. And that's not what we get. We go down a list. We check. Yes, I put my hand up. We both want kids. We both want to live in a four bedroom house. We both want to live for God. But yet no one teaches you the best biblical standard of what marriage should look like. So when I say, I wish somebody went there with me, that's what I wish. That's what I wish. But now we have many people who like myself, who. I saved myself for marriage. I read all the books I threw myself in church community. I. Brenda, I did nothing. I did not date. Who I married is my only boyfriend. That's my only kiss. So you have men and women who are not experiencing relationships for the hope that they're making the right step to honor God, but yet are ill equipped to know what was right and what was wrong.

[13:39] BRENDA FORD: So when did you know something was wrong with your marriage or in your marriage?

[13:52] JADE ANDREWS: I would say, honestly, if I'm honest, it started before we got married. There was a day when we were. I forget where we were driving to, but we were on the highway, and I remember we got into an argument, silly argument, a nothing argument. And from nowhere, he starts to speed up in the car, starts putting his foot on the. On the pedal. And I thought, okay, maybe he just. In a. You know. Cause he was agitated, and he's moving around. Maybe he pressed the accelerator back like a macho.

[14:34] BRENDA FORD: Like a macho?

[14:35] JADE ANDREWS: Yeah, like, okay, but he's gonna stop. And so I kind of braced. I'm holding onto the door here, and I'm holding here, and the car is just going faster, and I'm like, okay, okay, it's okay. Well, let's just stop. Let's stop. It's okay. Stop, stop. But still going fast. Zoom, zoom past this car, pass. This car finally does this for about a minute or so, and I'm like, what is going on? Who do I even call? And I'm trying to even remember. I don't even think at that time, I had a cell phone. You know? I don't even think I had a cell phone. Cause finally he pulls over to the side of the highway, brakes really hard, jumps out of the car, and is walking down the side of the highway, just pacing. And I just remember sitting back in my seat, like, is this real? Is this what an argument looks like? And I remember feeling. I think this is where, like, I can say, it's like that disconnection that happens in your body. My heart is racing. My hands are shaking. My legs had gone numb. But in my head, I'm thinking, okay, okay, stay calm, though. He's not gonna do anything to you. Is he gonna do something to you? He's not gonna do anything to you. Okay, we'll pray, pray, pray. Okay, he's not. Just stay calm. Stay calm. Do I go after him? Do I don't. Don't do anything that will make it worse. And I'm thinking, well, what have I done to bring it to this point?

[16:10] BRENDA FORD: Did you think it was your fault and that you needed to fix it?

[16:13] JADE ANDREWS: I thought if I said anything more, I would make it worse. Like I was. I'm okay with. I don't believe arguments are bad, if that makes sense. People have conflict. I think it's how you resolve it. I felt that. Okay, clearly, we've come to a conflict that maybe is a lot for him. And I didn't want to. I just didn't want to make it worse. Cause then here we are on the side of the highway. What was I gonna do? Who do I call? Do I chase after him on the highway?

[16:49] BRENDA FORD: As you said, you probably didn't even have a cell phone. So who do you call?

[16:53] JADE ANDREWS: Do I flag a car down? And also trying to think how. I don't know. When you see someone kind of acting out of turn like that. I'm also trying to gauge how just how drastic is this gonna go? Is he gonna run into traffic? Is he gonna. So I kept my eyes on him, and I'm still holding onto the seat and still gauging. And so that was the first time. And this is before marriage.

[17:25] BRENDA FORD: How far away from marriage were you when this major incident occurred?

[17:31] JADE ANDREWS: It was just under a year before you got married? Yeah.

[17:34] BRENDA FORD: Okay.

[17:34] JADE ANDREWS: Just under a year.

[17:36] BRENDA FORD: And given. I'm just gonna call that a red flag, because looking back, that probably was a red flag. What was your thought process? Was it just. This happened. I loving and committed to this person. I want to marry this person. What did you do with that red flag?

[17:57] JADE ANDREWS: I think, like any girl who has girlfriends, you call your girlfriends. So I called my. I called a few friends, and as I'm recounting the story, my heart is still. There is shock and disbelief on their side. Like, no, that's not. Are you serious? So then what happened? Well, he eventually just came back in the car, and then we drove off to where we're going. Oh, that's so weird. Well, what do you think? And then there's laughter, and then there's. Well, I don't know what to say. And it's the laughter and the disbelief that makes me now say, did I overthink it? Maybe I overthought it. Maybe this is what everybody goes through. And I'm also considering this is the first guy I'm dating, now marrying. So I don't have a context of. I also want to protect my parents image of him. So a lot of this I didn't share with my parents, you know, so it is their dismissal of it that makes me now say, okay, I'm overthinking it. Let me just keep going.

[19:09] BRENDA FORD: Just keep going.

[19:10] JADE ANDREWS: Yeah.

[19:10] BRENDA FORD: So I kept going, and maybe it'll never happen again. Maybe it was just a thing, and I'm going to do better.

[19:16] JADE ANDREWS: And it wasn't until I had now started the process of trying to come out someone. There was a counselor that I had been speaking with who pointed me to domestic violence.

[19:28] BRENDA FORD: When you say come out, come out of the marriage.

[19:31] JADE ANDREWS: Out of the marriage.

[19:31] BRENDA FORD: Okay.

[19:32] JADE ANDREWS: Yeah. I was just in the process of kind of looking at everything, trying to make the final decision, and she pointed me to a domestic violence brochure. And on the bottom of that page, it was like, page two of the brochure, on the bottom, it said, signs that you may have been in an abusive marriage. And one of the examples was, it was like fast car riding when you're in the car with the person.

[20:04] BRENDA FORD: I was like, wow. That I'm sure. I'm sure your brain just.

[20:08] JADE ANDREWS: My brain wins. Because for so long, this was something that happened to me that I had buried after those conversations with friends and thinking, okay, I just have to leave it. But to know that that wasn't just a crazy experience, that was a red flag, as you had said it. So.

[20:30] BRENDA FORD: So just for, you know, folks who might listen to this, what is. What is hidden abuse? What. How do you define hidden abuse?

[20:40] JADE ANDREWS: Yeah, I think societally, we are familiar with abuse as force applied to something or someone, and it leaves a mark or wound. Right. So we think of the person who does physical abuse. The black eye, bloody nose. Hidden abuse is more about force applied to the atmosphere or the environment of the two people. So it creates an environment where the victim cannot thrive, they cannot do well. It makes them doubt themselves. It makes them second guess. Was that good or was that bad? It is about. Hidden abuse is about creating an environment where the abuser and the one being abused, they are isolated. It is only. They're the only ones that's really seeing it. And the person who's the victim, or I hate to say victim, but the one who is being experienced experiencing it. Like, there's a clinical term called failure to thrive where you have a baby, where they're not growing well, they're not. And so hidden abuse is about creating an environment where that person cannot thrive. It becomes difficult now because of accidents or incidents like the car riding experience. There's a jitteriness now. There's hesitation when they're now driving. And so if you ever now, you know, show that hesitation in front of others, it's like, why are you hesitant about them driving? And then you start thinking, how do you explain how that made you feel? And the person, the abuser will even come out and say, oh, yeah, she's worried about that. One time I drove fast. Yeah, she always hangs on to stuff like that. And so it's an environment where you're not believed. It's an environment where there's a lot of denial to what you've experienced. A lot of gaslighting occurs in this also with hidden abuse. You have aspects of it that are like financial abuse. Throughout my marriage, I came into it. I have what's, can you say, a tertiary degree? Like, I've gone to school.

[22:56] BRENDA FORD: You're well educated.

[22:57] JADE ANDREWS: You're well educated. I'm exposed. And I went into this marriage, and all of a sudden I'm in an environment where I can't do the things where I could do before the level of work and training, I could not keep up with that. A lot of it was, there's a lot of emotional burden that you're carrying. So you're trying to do your work and deal with being up all night because you argued with someone you're trying to. When that. When my first career stopped trying to get jobs, I would apply for other work, but he would have a problem with getting a new job. He would question why I wanted a job. There's a particular role that I had applied for. It was like a dream job, gotten through like three or four levels of interviews for. It was chosen to do it, and it would have required a move on our part. And the minute I. And this move was something we had been in agreement about prior to we had talked about it, we're trying to move to this particular state. When I got the job first, dream job first, all of a sudden, it was, well, I don't think you should do that. I don't think that's the best decision for you or us right now. Well, why not? Well, I think I should be the one to get. And I, as in he, he should be the one to get a job first. And when I still pressed, I was like, well, what is wrong if I get the job first? One of his statements was, well, who's gonna watch the kids? Like, I won't be able. Like, if you go that means that he would have to watch the kids by himself. And I was like, but if you went, I would have to watch, like, aren't we in this together? So when we talk about financial abuse, it is making it hard for someone to get work, making it hard for someone to maintain a job. That was also then, too, where we used to have, like, a joint account, and that stopped. He would not put money in our joint account. So it would be things like, I need gas in the car.

[25:25] BRENDA FORD: How are you? Are you currently on the other side of the divorce, or is it still.

[25:31] JADE ANDREWS: It's still ongoing?

[25:32] BRENDA FORD: It's still ongoing.

[25:33] JADE ANDREWS: It's still ongoing. There is an aspect of hidden abuse, narcissistic abuse, where they call it post separation abuse. And so the minute the filing started, things, I would say, got worse. Things got worse. Where we are now trying to think through. He had things on the lighter end of the spectrum. He had things done where he had my phone cut off. He had. He sent a vehicle with people to follow my kids and I while I'm taking them to school. He cut off my car insurance so that. And then. But all of these things were not things that he was telling me directly. He cut off the car insurance and then would send a message and say, hey, come. Can you come and see me at this location? I want to discuss something. And I'm thinking, if I didn't know that my car insurance was cut off and I had gone, what? Like, what would have happened? That was the lighter end of the spectrum. He would take the kids and. Because now, by this point, we'd had a hearing and the kids were primarily with me, he would take the kids and then take them out of state and not let me know as we speak now, he has my kids. He has our kids, and he will hide their iPads from them so that they're not able to call me. He will tell them things like, they're not allowed to call me, so that when they are with their iPads, it's like, are we gonna get in trouble if we call mom? When you are. When you are separating? Hidden abuse is not just from the person. Hidden abuse can be in the system as well.

[28:06] BRENDA FORD: What do you hope for your future and your kids to be safe?

[28:14] JADE ANDREWS: I want to drive and not think that somebody is following me. I want to make a phone call and not wonder if. Does he have access to my phone still? I've had friends who have. In this process, he has smeared my name and I don't say this. I think what's hard about this is that there are certain biases and assumptions that in divorce that it's a woman scorned. I have no scorn. I want my life. I want my life. I want my children to be safe. That's it. But I have watched him destroy a decade of relationships. A decade of relationships. I have watched. Whereas I would get phone calls routinely. Those phone calls died for those who were able to find me again because it's not like I went anywhere. But for those who were able to get in touch with me again, they would show me logs. I called you on this day. I called you on this day. I called you on this day. I facebooked you on this day. Ig message you on this day. And I'm showing them nothing came through. What kind of technology is that that can block your calls? That can block. So what I hope for is I want to. I want to have a picnic with my kids and not wonder if someone is around. I want to.

[29:56] BRENDA FORD: Yeah.

[29:57] JADE ANDREWS: Yeah.

[29:57] BRENDA FORD: I'm so sorry. Um, I hate to wrap it up at this point, but I think. I think for now, we've. I think. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for coming in and for trusting me to receive this information. And I wish you all the best. And I would like to invite you to come back and see us again and let us know because I'm going to go home and worry about you. So thank you for having this conversation with me.

[30:38] JADE ANDREWS: Thank you. Thank you, Brenda.