Jamal [No Name Given] and Jamie Hadwin

[00:06] JAMAL [NO NAME GIVEN]: My name is Jamal. I'm 33 years old. Today is Wednesday, February 23, 2002. I'm located in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma. My partner's name is Jamie and my relationship to department is a one small step conversation.

[00:27] JAMIE HADWIN: And my name is Jamie. I am 35 years old. Today's date is Wednesday, February 23, 2022. My location is Oklahoma City, Oklahoma. My partner's name is Jamal and my relationship to partner is one small step conversation partner.

[00:54] JAMAL [NO NAME GIVEN]: And Miss Jamie's writer is that she was originally from Louisiana but moved to Oklahoma in middle school. She's always been a curious person and likes to explore new places and learn new things. Jamie considers herself a lifelong learner. She recently had a baby, so her perspective on priorities has changed recently. She is driven by a sense of fairness, justice, and transparency for all. Jamie is drawn to causes for social justice, education and empowerment.

[01:33] JAMIE HADWIN: So with Jamal's bio, Jamal believes in democracy and more specific, the expansion of democracy into the economic realm as opposed to the totalitarian manner in which businesses are or which businesses run. Today, this means he is a socialist and wants to dispel myths like people thinking there is socialism in the US. Liberals and conservatives have great incentive to demonize cooperative economics and have twisted people's understanding to maintain an unbalanced power structure that creates huge inequalities. And then they blame it on socialism.

[02:36] JAMAL [NO NAME GIVEN]: So you said you, how do you, what draws, what draws you to causes of social justice, education? What kind of, like, first led you down that?

[02:56] JAMIE HADWIN: Well, I think I've always been drawn to having a strong sense of empathy with people and, you know, recognizing that if something seems unfair or, you know, that something's going on that doesn't quite seem right in the sense of kind of that balance of, you know, things that they may have access to or not have access to or trying to see, like, all sides of things, I feel like I've always had a strong sense to be able to pick up on that for people. A lot of it's probably influenced by my dad, who I think is, also has that strong sense and, you know, just trying to understand the bigger picture of what's going on and not, you know, looking at things in terms of black and white. And because of that, I think I, like kind of recognizing that there's a lot of complexities when it comes to living in this country and living in the world that I think a lot of people don't really look into very deeply, kind of see things at surface value. And so when I am drawn to these causes because I want people to be on as equal playing field as possible to be able to achieve what they want out of life or to be able to, you know, even have, like, basic comforts or basic access to things. And so I think, you know, for me, I'm drawn to that because I have that empathy, I have that understanding that there are a lot of things going on with people that I don't think enough people sit and have conversations about. So part of that is like, why I think I'm drawn to those movements because I feel like those are areas that are kind of at the core of, you know, why we're, you know, having, you know, some of these inequalities and balances, imbalances, as you mentioned. So kind of reading through your bio, you know, I was interested in learning a little bit more about kind of the economic side of it from like, the inequalities, the unbalanced power structure that you view as, you know, helping to create those inequalities.

[05:25] JAMAL [NO NAME GIVEN]: Well, I think in my opinion, there's a lot, a lot of the things people fight for. Today I've got an opinion that if we fight for economic focus on economic inequality, all these other things we want will be byproducts of that. Anyway, it's the structure of, when I say the structure of the workplace, we don't have any. We have very little method for collective bargaining. Thankfully, there's a lot of strikes going on. It looks like unions are starting to make a comeback. Finally. I don't get my statistics exactly right, but roughly, union membership used to be like 30% of the workforce and now it went down to ten. But beyond that, even unions are still kind of a weak leverage and they can be corrupted still. And so what socialism means to me, I love, and most leftist suppose is whoever, well, I guess owning the means of production if you own, you know, that sort of jargon. But cooperatives is one example. Basically, if you work there, you own the place and you have partial ownership and both democracy in the workplace, there's this economist, Richard Wolf, I follow a lot. He delves into it. So, yeah, I think if we can get an economic foothold and we can, most of our other problems will kind of float away. So. Yeah. Do you have any because you said you're into social justice.

[07:30] JAMIE HADWIN: Can we do follow up questions now or we can. Okay, I did, but it sounds like you had one that you were going into first. If you, if you want to, go ahead.

[07:46] JAMAL [NO NAME GIVEN]: Oh, I just saw his, or they sent a question in the chat.

[07:51] JAMIE HADWIN: Yeah.

[07:55] JAMAL [NO NAME GIVEN]: Right now you can do your follow up question if you want.

[07:58] JAMIE HADWIN: Okay. Yeah, I kind of wanted to kind of follow up with. So I worked in higher education for a while, and I also worked in education through, I did a program with communities and schools when I was in Ardmore. And I I also worked with a private school that helped families who were coming out of homelessness to provide a kind of like a stable school environment. So I wanted to maybe see where you felt education fit into that. And I can go a little bit into the higher ed. I kind of have become a little not necessarily jaded. I do think there's a place for higher education, but I definitely don't think it's as important as its push should be to achieve, you know, that economic foothold, as you had mentioned. I do think that was part of a, you know, maybe a dream or a goal that was created that's maybe a little outdated at this time. But I definitely, like I said, I consider myself a lifelong learner. So I love being in educational environments, but I really, like, have started to go back to, you know, kind of the earlier stages of education and how that affects, you know, our paths in life, how that gives us our footholds at whatever level we end up being kind of, you know, looking at it from that perspective. But I did enjoy your take on the economic as well.

[09:44] JAMAL [NO NAME GIVEN]: In regards to schools because, yeah, you're right that partially, the Internet is partially responsible for kind of rendering obsolete the whole you need a degree to get a good job sort of thing. And the Internet is a double edged sword, of course, but see a lot of opportunities as well, for self education, for one. But, yeah, it's, you mentioned you worked in both private and public. And, I mean, because what's tough about it is I want to say, you know, we fund all these other schools anyway. We might as well fund higher education, too, and improve it. And it's true, we do need to improve it. But, like, because, see, I'm for the state and our government implementing programs also, you know, and helping to, you know, create more opportunities for lower class, redistribute the wealth in certain different ways. But our government, as it is today, as it has been for a long time, is so, you know, kind of the way it functions is so everything's always, even if they create something new, it's underfunded, they're making shortcuts. It's, you know, they go out of their way to make it not the best it can be. And so people's faith in, you know, government implementing things has rightfully gone away. But at the same time, private schools, because you mentioned accessibility earlier, that's an I. Important thing is accessibility. And when it comes to private schools, that's kind of the key features that not accessible. So, yeah, I think. I mean. So, yeah, I mean, how did you feel about all the teacher pays? Were you part of the teacher strikes and whatnot that happened here in Oklahoma?

[11:46] JAMIE HADWIN: So I wasn't actually a teacher. I did support the teacher pay raises because I. I feel like our teachers are severely underfunded to begin with. Our schools in general as well, but our public schools. And the school that I worked at was actually, it's a private school, but it is a nonprofit private school. So the tuition is funded through donations and grants to provide the school for people. So it was kind of a weird balance of nonprofit government, like social sector education, and even, you know, being in that type of environment, you would think, hmm, like, that sounds like a, you know, great cause to have school. You know, there's. There's inadequacies, I think, even in some of our social service sectors as well, whether that's nonprofit or government. So I got to see a lot of that from that perspective as well. And it really kind of opened my eyes, I think, to realizing that I think there's this myth with working for, like, oh, you need to work for the cause. The cause is good. You should be, like, completely committed to that. But there were a lot of times that I questioned not necessarily the cause, but how we got there or how we were getting there, because I felt like there has to be a better way. Like, why are things so complex? Why are things so convoluted? You know, why are there these, for lack of a better word, politics involved with this? And it's very much. A lot of things that become politicized. And I think sometimes that does jade your view. Sometimes when you get into things and you kind of have that enthusiasm, you're all gung ho to go out and change the world or to make a positive impact. And then you see it's not as easy or as straightforward as. As you thought it would be. You kind of get challenged yourself on things that you once thought were kind of like this. This dream that you had in your head, this reality that the bubble kind of gets burst.

[14:09] JAMAL [NO NAME GIVEN]: Yeah, well, in my opinion, I think pretty convinced. A lot of those. I think a lot of these, because when I say the government's not good at implementing these things, I think that's by design. It's meant. I think we're meant to be the same courage to the symptoms. They make the system more converted, more convert, because there's always somebody loot anything that's not meant to be profitable. Yeah, someone's gonna make. Someone needs to make profit as well as. So it looks like, you know, there's always been a fight against public schools for a long time. Yeah, I just think that people want to make money off of it. So anything the government does, there's not money to be made. So I don't know. I guess, for lack of a better word, maybe. It's not like there is evidence all over the place.

[15:27] JAMIE HADWIN: I think I definitely like to circle back. You talked about a lot of things that I think I'd like to circle back on, but I definitely want to get through Kevin's questions, those three that he said he was going to ask us. So do you want to go ahead and talk about someone that you feel has been maybe the kindest person to you in your life or a very kind person that's made an impact?

[16:00] JAMAL [NO NAME GIVEN]: I suppose the first person that comes to mind is my dad. I guess just because he's taller than me for my whole life still helps me out to this day here. But he. I guess I was kind of raised into politics. He's liberal, he's the Democratic Party and whatnot. I've got. So I was kind of raised into that. And my extended family, I've actually, since it's actually Bernie Sanders who started moving more left for him to destigmatizing the word socialism. And so I think he helps tremendously push a lot of people. But I kind of got off track here. So, yeah, I guess my dad's crime scripturally, given those circumstances.

[17:09] JAMIE HADWIN: Yeah, that's actually very similar to me. I mean, I would say my dad has probably been one of the kindest people, you know, to me or to others that I've known. Just because he, as well, is very tolerant, I remember things that I look to him as an example of the type of person I want to be. He gave a lot of people chances throughout his professional career that I don't think maybe would have been given the chance because they were considered different or other. They didn't quite fit into the norm, and, you know, ended up being some of, you know, his longest friends, longest running friends, or really, you know, great employees that have gone on to do great things or have really gotten, you know, their careers established. So I think that kindness that he. Intolerance that he shows to others definitely been something that I've noticed throughout my life, whether or not it took me until my twenties to realize that. But looking back, I think I definitely see a lot of his influence through that kindness and tolerance and empathy for others. So. And I think part of it was influenced. He was adopted from the Philippines, and he moved to a very small town in Louisiana, and he was one of four asian, darker skinned asian children in the community. And I think that that made him feel different, even though he was accepted in ways that a lot of other people in his community weren't from other racial or ethnic groups. But I think he did realize that he kind of stuck out there and that it could have gone a very different way for him. So I feel like that was the chances that he was given growing up. He wanted to make sure that other people felt like they were included and accepted. And he's just always kind of had that very positive, very positive attitude. He's much to my mom's annoyance, he likes to joke about everything. So I can tell sometimes my mom doesn't realize when he's just kind of egging her on, and I'll kind of, I'll laugh in the backseat, and I'm like, oh, that's just my dad, you know, being, playing a joke on her or trying to tell a joke on her. Mom's like, don't, don't say that. And gets all worked up. And I'm like, dad, give her a break. Like, you're, you're getting her worked up. But he just, you know, he does it in, like, a very playful way. And he has his own quirky sense of humor, but ultimately, it all comes from, like, kindness and good heartedness.

[20:10] JAMAL [NO NAME GIVEN]: So that sounds like my job, too. He pulls my wrong leg all the time. Very kind hearted. And he also was, because I'm half lebanese and he's on his, that's my lebanese side. So he was a dark skin. Growing up in Texas. What is your earliest memory?

[20:44] JAMIE HADWIN: So it's kind of a weird memory, but it's actually if. Do you remember the cartoon animaniacs?

[20:53] JAMAL [NO NAME GIVEN]: Yes. I love the music.

[20:56] JAMIE HADWIN: So when they talked about Bill Clinton playing the sacks and the Animaniacs, I had no idea who Bill Clinton was at the time. But when I did figure out, like, when I was old enough to, like, figure out who Bill Clinton was, it was something that, like, really stuck with me, that it was something that was referenced in a cartoon about a sitting president playing saxophone. And I think that's really when I kind of started realizing that there was this, like, whole political body, this governing body out there that was, like, larger than, you know, any one person. But this is the president of, you know, the United States, and there he was, a cartoon character on the. A really, you know, crazy cartoon show. So. And that's kind of my first memory of realization of what politics was. It's like a. The larger picture, I think.

[21:56] JAMAL [NO NAME GIVEN]: That'S a good. Mine was. I mean, I kind of want to say it might. My early family is probably what I mentioned earlier, going to my extended camp, my early family in Dallas, and listening to everybody's memory. I thought I was in middle school and watched watch 911. It's probably my earliest memory because one of the kids in my class said something like, it's probably the publicity spent or something like that, because at first. So how would you describe yourself? Like, why did you want to do this interview today?

[23:01] JAMIE HADWIN: Honestly, because I just love meeting new people. I took that strength Finder quiz as part of a work thing one time, and one of my strengths was connectedness. And when I was reading it, at first, like, this doesn't describe me because it talked about connectedness from more of a spiritual or religious perspective. I was like, that's a know. That doesn't describe me at all. But then it. I kind of went further down, and it was talking about, you like, to meet new people and talk philosophically and, like, yes, that's me. Like, that's totally me. And kind of, like seeing the connectedness of things. And, you know, even in, like, the conversation that we've had so far, I mean, there's a lot of parallelisms between, you know, your life and my life, which is kind of crazy and kind of seeing how it comes together. And so for that, like, and that. And just being a big fan of storyCorps, I kind of make a joke sometimes is that I don't really consider myself an emotional person, but when it comes to StoryCorps, they always happen to pick, like, really, really good sound bites. And it's, you know, people who are for StoryCorps, they know each other, and a lot of times they bring up things that, like, oh, when I was younger, you know, dad, I thought that you would disapprove of this. And so I never talked to you about it. And then there's always, like, some type of emotional pull. I'm just like, dang, story core, like, getting this tear coming out of my eye, like, trying to drive, listening to public radio, and it's like, making me, you know, like, oh, man, there is some, like, humanity left in the world. This really cool conversation so, you know, I think it was inspired by, by that just sense to get to, you know, desire to get to know new people and that sense of wanting to connect, I guess. So what about you? What, what made you, I think you had said that you saw about one small step on a Reddit thread or social.

[25:13] JAMAL [NO NAME GIVEN]: This was weird about it. I was, it was a few months ago, so I don't quite remember what exactly it was. And I thought it was specifically like, is this specifically about politics? I'm not sure because it seems more general than I anticipated. And so that's why, like, when you read my biotech, looked deeper into what I was doing. That's kind of how I am jumping. But yeah, and I'm, I wanted to, I was, well, what drew me to it was the idea of trying to, because I've always been bridge builder. That's how I would argue with all the other leftists on there, just, oh, these liberals, oh, these conservatives, oh, these pretty much everybody, but, but them. I'm like, what do you do? What are you trying to do here as a political project? Just argue amongst yourselves. You gotta, like, reach out to people. So, I mean, like, it's, because it's kind of weird. I was surrounded by right wing people growing up, and then I kind of got into left wing myself later. So I feel like that's kind of a strong understanding of both mindsets, I guess. So to say. Yeah, I was going to ask how you suppose. Well, no, I mean, that's too specific. If you're uncomfortable with that on a.

[26:59] JAMIE HADWIN: Scale of one to ten. No, I consider myself to be pretty liberal when it comes to a lot of social issues, but actually more moderate. What is it? Slightly conservative when it comes to financial issues. And the reason I do that is because I say that is because I've seen a lot of systems, I work in governments, I work for the Department of Health. So I've seen a lot of systems that do receive and use money maybe not exactly in the best way. And I have to think, like, there has to be a better way to be able to achieve the goals that we say, like we're setting out to while still being financially responsible. So there are, you know, I think a lot of times when I talk to people, a lot of people in Oklahoma or with my family growing up in Louisiana, they're, you know, pretty conservative, that they're actually a little surprised when, you know, I, I would like more transparency and more oversight on, onto things like that, not necessarily from, um, kind of that totalitarian approach but just, like, let's. Let's try to be more, like, plan better. Let's, you know, let's not just jump into the, the first thing that we say we're going to do just because it's the only option that we've come up with at the time. Like, or let's try to figure out how things are connected so we're not duplicating things with money, and maybe we could, like, better spend that money on something else that maybe then eliminates the need to spend money on that in the future. So I don't know. For me, I'm, like, always thinking, like, trying to think, like, is this the best way that we could have gone about these things? And I've seen it across all the sectors that I've worked in. So I know it's not just something that's limited to governments or, you know, corporate business, but, like, I've seen it in nonprofits and I've seen it in education, and I've seen it, you know, even, like, in large or small, like, small business, there's, like, a lot of, with the capitalism, there's a lot of competitiveness, which I'm not saying capitalism is necessarily a bad thing, but I think it's sometime to the detriment of understanding, like, what is actually needed versus where there are gaps. Like, when I, when I worked in the nonprofit industry, there were so many nonprofits that did, like, the same thing. It's like, why are there so many, like, why are we split so much? And the money's going here, you're here, and you're all trying to do the same thing. But it was still competitive in the nonprofit sector, which is, you know, for me, kind of a turn off to, like, man, it's everywhere.

[30:09] JAMAL [NO NAME GIVEN]: Yeah. Permeates our culture. Sorry.

[30:13] JAMIE HADWIN: Yeah. So I'm thinking at it from, you know, that perspective of, like, I really am drawn to these causes, but at the same time, not to just, like, jump into them blind and. And not question things.

[30:27] JAMAL [NO NAME GIVEN]: Yeah, there's a cloth talks a lot about how we should, instead of jumping, acting, we need to stop thinking first. So we aren't know what we're doing in a way, as best we can anyway, but. So, yeah, so you're in the fray of it in terms of, you know, government spending and stuff. It's interesting. I come from a small business myself, our family, just that out of the kids after the COVID hit. But construction is where we worked on before that. But when you say what we're. We need to be spending things the right way. Do you think? You think certain things? I think we need to. Like what makes me think of people who want to increase budgets for these places thinking that that budget increase would increase the effectiveness, throw money into the environment, budget to protect the environment.

[31:52] JAMIE HADWIN: So I don't think me, I don't think money solves everything.

[31:57] JAMAL [NO NAME GIVEN]: No. Well, that's the problem is because without we just try to throw money. But when you talk, that's what I was going to mention when you talked about capitalism. It sort of outlived its usefulness in a lot of ways. That's why I think if everybody who's working in the factories have a say on how factories operate, things would be a little more different. Maybe the excesses would be curved in some ways. And foremost, get the corporate money out of politics that way when who we're electing actually comes from our communities and, you know, professional politicians, so to say, because there's this quote I really love. It goes, America is also a one party state, but in typical american extravagance, they have two of them because it's, they're both the capitalist party. They both cater to this, cater to interest, just different interests. And so, you know, they have different goals because of the interests they have to cater to.

[33:19] JAMIE HADWIN: I can see that. I definitely think people have taken advantage of the spirit of capitalism in this sense. Like, if you boil it down to, if you want to, like, try and get it down to its core definition, but, you know, for their own purposes. And I think it definitely shows in, you know, kind of where we are right now. But at the same time, you know, that the spirit of capitalism also, you know, kind of can discourage monopolies in a way, even though we're not doing the greatest job of that because of things getting taken advantage of. But, you know, it could with trying to get that, like, you know, one entity could be at the top of the world one day and then get knocked back down the next is, you know, something that's still a possibility. But at the same time, I feel like people have manipulated the system to, to try and make sure that that doesn't happen. So then we get, you know, kind of the bigger, larger entities that are then have their hands in a lot of different systems, like you said, like lobbyists, money in politics, driving, you know, possibly driving a lot of who our elected officials are versus really people like driving it with their own sense or, you know, duty to democracy or even an understanding of it. I feel like we don't, as a country, don't really understand democracy very well anymore if we ever did, but definitely not in the sense of if we, you know, kind of try to understand it in its truest sense, then a lot of the things that we're doing right now are not very democratic.

[35:22] JAMAL [NO NAME GIVEN]: No, exactly. I think, yeah, our democracy is more of a brand than a definition of our system, and it's very controlled at this point. I was reading more about history of capitalism at one point, and I realized what made it so why they thought of liberating and stuff and why they brought to them in the beginning is because it was sort of pre industrial. It was like the largest factory had maybe ten people. So they didn't even conceptualize one guy giving orders to hundreds and hundreds of people. And not only that, but multinational corporations.

[36:12] JAMIE HADWIN: Yeah, no, it's definitely evolved. I think it's kind of, like you said, its core definition, that society has evolved beyond maybe what the intent originated, but. Yeah, I know, I think I never thought it about it that way of like, the beginnings of it, like the time period that it was in.

[36:39] JAMAL [NO NAME GIVEN]: Yeah. Because apparently, like, when it was beginning, everybody was. That's why that was what was literally everyone was gonna be self employed artisans and stuff like that. You were your own employer, you're your own boss. And, you know, factors didn't really exist. They want those hierarchical. Well, they did, but, you know, not excessively. I was thinking now it sounds a lot more like freedom than it does to day, where it means, you know, shareholders, board of directors and stuff like that. And. Yeah.

[37:17] JAMIE HADWIN: So what are your thoughts of me working for a state government agency?

[37:22] JAMAL [NO NAME GIVEN]: Well, it's because it's, I'm thinking about it more and more because I also pay attention internationally. What attracts me to socialism is everywhere you look at it, the first things they do when proper socialist government gets in place is education, health, housing. The first thing they do is make sure, and you can look at statistics they have, like, Cuba has health care in the world in some areas, but when you think about it, but it can't be applied to here. And that's where the conflict is, because the whole purpose of our state is to serve the market is a quote unquote free market, which it's never really existed because you always need government to set, set the main rules. I guess so, yeah. I mean, our government exists for an entirely different purpose. So it's hard so, like, think, you know, we need to make universal health care and, you know, all this sort of stuff, but it's hard to imagine it conceptualized through our system because of its unique. And so I think we'll have to go about it. What do you think about you working in government?

[38:55] JAMIE HADWIN: What do I think about me? You said you're a small business owner, so I was gonna actually, that's gonna be my next question, was, what do you focus on for small business? But you were asking what I think about me working in government.

[39:08] JAMAL [NO NAME GIVEN]: Well, how the experience is, like, what. What the impression of government you have is from your experience.

[39:14] JAMIE HADWIN: I was very surprised that I actually enjoy it as much as I do. But I think part of it is because I came into an agency during a time that it was very. A spotlight was on the need to change. And while there have been a lot of things that maybe, like, sometimes I do consider myself a little idealistic in terms of holding high standards for the places that I work. And you wouldn't necessarily think that with working with a state government agency, especially one like a, you know, a health department right now during the Covid-19 but I'm around a lot of people who just really want. Who genuinely want to improve public health in our state. Now. Is that everyone? Is that 100% everyone? No, but I kind of get energized by the fact, knowing that there are people who are passionate about it. So, yeah, I was very surprised that. That I found myself enjoying where I was at as much as I do. But I definitely looked at it as a temporary position at first. As I mentioned, you know, I recently had a baby, so I left one place. I was like, well, I'll just take this temporary job, and then when I'll take a couple months off and everything will be, you know, it'll work out perfectly. But then I ended up liking the people that I worked with so much that when they offered me a permanent job. Hmm. Never thought I would be a state employee. And I took it because it was probably the most positive experience I've had in a workplace environment in a while other than several years back, which is in a different city. So I, you know, wasn't going to move back to, like, just go work there, but so, yeah, it's very surprising. And what about you? What's your small business area? What do you focus on?

[41:12] JAMAL [NO NAME GIVEN]: I'm not a small business owner. I come from a family. It's my long story short. My dad got out, had a short prison stance, started business, and so I worked for him for a lot of my life. And it was actually kind of an interesting dynamic because it was actually, my sister's experiencing it now. She's just now going. She's just now going to work, realizing that she can't see anybody's true character because everybody treats her as the boss's daughter, which was okay. When I first learned my dad, I made sure to treat me like everybody else when I was at work, so I was treated like him. They treated me like. So. Anyway, I'm getting too. I've been reading a lot about psychology, too, which we did. We all did all participate in this cannabis business, and it was quite illuminating seeing how the market functions, because it didn't take long for big money to roll in and run off all the small groups. And, you know, realize the more money you have when you start, far greater chances of your success as a business. A lot of money from marketing, all this different stuff, and it's just games rigged against you. The smaller you start up challenges are to get anywhere. But, of course, like, I also mentioned Covid hit and my dad also. It was an interesting experience in Oklahoma, especially because our market was one of the least regulated parts.

[43:42] JAMIE HADWIN: Yeah, definitely. I remember when you were talking about. I think you mentioned that, like, the cannabis industry and how, like, quickly that blew up in Oklahoma, and just remember them talking about, like, the Green Mile in Oklahoma City. Or it's like, you know, dispensary after dispensary after dispensary. And, you know, my husband and I would drive down the road, like, man, how did. How are there so many, like, popping up and, you know, wondering which ones we're going to be able to stay in business? Because, like, there's so, so many options. And I'm kind of surprised as many of them are still open right now that I see driving by. I don't know, financially, how they're doing, if they're hanging on by a thread or if they're thriving. But, you know, I've seen some come and go, but some of them, I'm like, well, there must be, you know, enough of a market to. To keep them afloat if. If they're still operating right now. So, um, that was something that was, you know, really interesting to me and my mom, my aunt. They're like, oh, we get our. We have our medical card, and we get our oils and stuff, and, you know, I personally, you know, have never. I don't really, like, you know, smoke a lot or, you know, I've tried it before. It's just not really for me. It's. I get in my head too much, I think. So I'm like, I'm just gonna, you know, enjoy not being in my own thoughts in that state. But, you know, it's just. It's just kind of funny to see the differences, like, generational differences of like, oh, yeah. Like something that, you know, like, oh, no, it's like the war on drugs. And let's, you know, let's tackle that. And then 20 years later, something that, you know, someone would have gone to prison for. For ten years, like my aunt and my mom are rubbing on their knees and like, this is a miracle. So it's been interesting. It's been interesting to see that evolution of like, oh, well, now it's legal, but, you know, 2030 years ago, lock them up.

[45:58] JAMAL [NO NAME GIVEN]: That's actually one area I have very strong feelings for because as mentioned earlier, well, I mentioned too much because I mentioned before, victim of the drug war. That's one area. So I have strong feelings for and pretty much a full drug advocacy. Like, I. We need authentics. We need to do all sorts of better stuff. Psychedelics are actually coming around, and that's what I'm happy to see. People are healing. It's just another area where it's just antiquated. Just antiquated government laws that are too hard and I are too difficult to change with the will of the people. That's another area that we could have discussed more if we didn't have three minutes left. But how slow it is to implement the democratic will of the people. There's just so many things that majority of people want, but we just can't make that.

[47:12] JAMIE HADWIN: Yeah, well, you're the one that brought up that we only have a few minutes left. So I was going to get in a closing question to kind of. See, I know you said that you. Your expectations maybe coming into this were a little different than what you thought with how you wrote your bio. So with participating in this conversation, was there anything that, like, surprised you about this experience today, Orlando?

[47:38] JAMAL [NO NAME GIVEN]: Um. Oh, just that. Just that part of it was. It was more story oriented, like the name of the company implies or the organization implies story for more about our stories, which was more comfortable. Halfway through, I started, like, went in a little nervous. Yeah. What about you? You handle it a lot better than I did. I was a little underprepared, snuck up on me because there's been a lot going on in my life lately, so.

[48:13] JAMIE HADWIN: Well, I won't lie. I have a. I work in communications, so I have a communications background, and I think I probably prepared me a little bit better for being on air. I've been on tv and radio before, just with some of the roles that I've been doing. But, I mean, really, I think what I was surprised most about is, as we were talking about things in our lives, just how similar, like, a lot of similarities that us and our families had even, like, down to, you know, growing up in Texas versus Louisiana with our families and, you know, some of our life experiences or how our fathers were both really, you know, impactful, shaping who we are, our identities, how we view the world, or how we treat others. So. And now, like, kind of going back, my. My husband just walked in with our. Our little one. Like, that's just blowing my mind now of thinking of this from a completely different perspective of things that, you know, I was, like, all gung ho and energetic about things. Now I'm like, oh, gosh, now I have to think about how I'm preparing him to be successful because I never thought, you know, I'd be at this point in my life of having a kid talk about that. Yeah. So it's definitely a lot of the things that we've talked about today I feel similarly about, but I think I have been changing views. Some to are not necessarily my views, but my perspective, trying to think about the future. And I'm like, oh, gosh, now I have brought someone into this world. What am I. What am I going to do about that now? So it's causing me to think a lot more these days.

[50:06] JAMAL [NO NAME GIVEN]: Yeah. And what I got from you is pretty much what I mentioned earlier about, because you mentioned your fiscal. I. Government budgets, fiscally. How what I want our government to do has to go through that sort of barrier, I guess. Anyway, it was nice. This was a nice discussion. I enjoyed myself.

[50:39] JAMIE HADWIN: Yeah, same here.

[50:42] JAMAL [NO NAME GIVEN]: And is there anything else or.