James Devlin and Mary Harmon-Christian

[00:07] KATHY HARMON CHRISTIAN: My name is Kathy Harmon Christian. My age is 55 years old. I am in Muscogee Creek, territory of Decatur, Georgia. Today's date is February 17, 2021. My partner is Jim Devlin and they are my friend.

[00:30] JIM DEVLIN: My name is Jim Devlin I am 65 years old, and I am in Peachtree Corners, Georgia. Today is February 7, 2021, Ash Wednesday, if you're Catholic. My partner is Kathy Harmon Christian, although sometimes she likes to be called Pelly. And she is one of my dearest friends and a incredible spiritual mentor to me, and I love them dearly.

[01:01] SPEAKER C: I'm sorry to jump in, Jim, so can you. Today's February 17th. Could you just go ahead and make that clear on the recording?

[01:08] JIM DEVLIN: Today is February 17th, 2021. Okay.

[01:15] KATHY HARMON CHRISTIAN: Jim, that was so nice of you. Oh, my goodness. I just love it. What a wonderful thing to say. You spoke, sweetheart, you. Gosh, you've thrown me for a loop there. No, Well, I think it's fabulous that we get to record this on Ash Wednesday and we've just spent this time together because we both know we've been anticipating being able to talk about your time having Covid and the spiritual experiences you've had. So I just really want to jump right in. I have been longing to hear your story on this. So start wherever you want, but tell me your story.

[01:52] JIM DEVLIN: Okay. Well, the reason I wanted to do Covid was, you know, my spiritual journey has been a very unique one over time. And, you know, people have called me an old timey Catholic. And I think it's because, you know, I got. Didn't get the upbringing that everybody else did necessarily, although there's a lot of things that I remember. And once I had had kids, I jumped right into the church. And of course I got the whole conservative this, that and the other thing. So as a gay man coming out, divorcing, all that kind of stuff, and, you know, I had to try to find my way. So I struggle a lot in the church, but. And with the church. However, one of the things that I'm. That I don't struggle with is my connection with God. And I. I believe that. And I could be wrong on this. I believe that most people that believe in God, if they come to a crossroads in their life at some time and they pray at some time, will feel the overwhelming presence of God in however that presents itself. And I've had that blessing a couple of times in my life when I was younger, but very significantly when I had Covid. So let me just talk about that. Covid was the Worst thing I'd ever experienced in my life. I did not have the congestion and the sneezing and the, you know, coughing and all that kind of stuff. What I did have is horrible body aches. I mean, torturous body aches that were worse than rheumatoid arthritis. And no matter what medication I took for the, for the high fevers, it never affected the body. Pain coupled with that, which makes it really, really significant, was I had insomnia. So to have that kind of pain at night and lay there, I mean, the only thing you could do was pray. You know, I really, I was sick enough to. Where I really needed somebody to care for me 247 without being in the hospital. And that was my husband. And we got to be home because the doctor believed the way we were set up and the medical kinds of things we had because our mothers had passed away and they had every medical device known to man with the exception of an oxygen tank. We had every. Everything. And they said, okay, we'll let you go home, but you need to report to us every day. So he dutifully, I mean, he was the best caregiver in the world. I couldn't have gotten better care anywhere in a hospital or anything. But anyways, during the most difficult time. And the illness, the serious illness, it started at first in a couple of days, then it ramped up very quickly. So there was about 10 days during that two and a half week period to three week period that I was really sick. Spiking fevers, over 102. And, you know, you're sick when you have to look across from the. Look at your husband and say, honey, do we need to talk about this? Because, you know, it could have gone south as easily as I could have recovered. Right. And my husband, as practical as he is, oh, yeah, we covered all the financial stuff. And I know where everything is. And I'm thinking, okay, I'm thinking, like, well, really talking about the love, you know, okay, well, then we'll just brush that aside. But he's very practical, you know, and so that's how he copes. And so that's how we dealt with that. But I realized when you, when you realize that you have to have that conversation with somebody that you love with all your heart, it's very humbling. And so that ramped right into me getting really sick. My fevers, my body aches were so intense that Jim would, you know, he would rub my arms, my legs, my back and my chest. And, you know, his touch, just touching, alleviated the pain in the spot where his hands were. And he would come and do that, Kathy, you know, three and four times a day. And he slept next to me every night, even though he could have gotten it. And he wore a mask every night just to be next to me while I was sick. So during probably the highest point of my sickness. And remember I said about everybody experiences God at some point in their lives. And I believe that God presents himself to people when they are the most open. Well, how open can you be when you're laying there in pain and doing nothing but praying? I mean, I was praying for groups of people. I was praying for people by name. And interestingly, during that process, I was praying for people whose names just came to me that I've never heard of, first names and last names. And so maybe I was delirious, I'm not sure. But all I felt was that I was supposed to pray for these people. And that's what I did most of the night. So one night as I was praying, there was Jesus right next to the bed. I kid you not, I looked at him, I said, you're here. He said, I'm always here. He said, I'm not going to leave you. He said, I will be by your side the whole time. I'm with you always. And he put his hand down on my hand. And when I looked down, it was Jim's hand on my hand and, you know, tears just rolling down my face. I mean, I was just sobbing. And during this time, and this is really interesting, I am not a martyr, nor do I ever care to be a martyr. But for some reason, when I was in Jesus's company, I wanted to suffer more. I mean, I said to him over and over again, I can take more suffering. I can do more. And it was almost like I wanted it so badly, not even thinking about what the suffering, but I just wanted to do it for him. And he said, no, no, you don't have to do that. Everything is right where it should be and all that kind of stuff. And. And then I just remember that, you know, when he put. When he put his hand on my hand and I was crying and stuff like that, I just. I think I fell asleep. And that's all I remember about that encounter with Jesus, other than the fact that I knew he was there and I knew that he wouldn't leave me. And with me, through my husband Jim, he was caring for me through Jim. So that was the first encounter. The second encounter, which was even a little more intense, was. And I Could have been a days later. I have no idea how long it was, but there Jesus was again. And I said, oh, you're here. Like I did the first time. I'm surprised he didn't roll his eyes and said, yeah, I told you the first time I was going to be here, but yes, I'm here. And as we were talking and I was praying and I was thanking him for being here, and again asking him that I can suffer more if what I. What can I do to help for the salvation of souls? What can I do to help for the conversion of sinners? And I can do more. And he was like, no. And then what happened was I was all of a sudden in this light. Every. You hear people when they die, they go into this light, but it wasn't that kind of a light, but it was a bright light. And I realized when I was in that bright light that my mind and my heart were in exactly the same place. And I. And that dawned on me because too often in life, that's the problem with us, is that our hearts and our minds just don't connect, right? And for me, my heart and my mind were in the exact same place in this bright light with Jesus. And I. I remember saying, I can see. I can see. And Jesus said to me, what do you see? He said, I can see all the people. I can see all the people. I can see into their souls. I can see the fire, the light in their souls. I can see the murderers. I can see the child molesters. I can see the children that have suffered needlessly, the women that have been abused, the people. Just the sorrow and the hurt and the harm that we inflict on each other because we don't understand and we don't talk and we're so set in our ways. And I'm sobbing again like I am now. I mean, it just. I could see. I could see so plainly to the soul of every human being. And Jesus looked at me and he said, every single human being is made in the image and likeness of God the Father. Everything is created in his beauty. Your responsibility and the responsibility of all humanity is to look at each human being to their soul, to know that that fire is in their soul. And your job is to fan that flame. That could be by a word of encouragement. That could be by being silent and not speaking when you shouldn't. That could be a hug. That could be a letter. That could be a variety of different things. The Holy Spirit will be with you. And if they ask you, they will give you what you're supposed to do. And he said, these flame does not get extinguished until it's either extinguished by me or you do it yourself. And I remembered asking him, what do you mean? And he said, when you distinct. When you extinguish it yourself, it means that you don't want to be with me. You've just taken it upon yourself too. And I asked him about people that commit suicide and stuff, and he said, that's a different story. He said, those are emotional issues. I'm talking about people that, you know, just don't want have to do anything to do with. With God and eternity and all that kind of stuff. And I said, okay. And then I was back to the, you know, help me to help those people, you know, give me more suffering, because I'm not sure that I can do that on earth. I mean, when I. When I come out of this. And he said, just keep it in mind and tell people that when they look at another human being that they are seeing the face of God, that he created them perfectly. So, and then I remember kind of waking up or I went to sleep or whatever the case may be during that whole thing, I was just boohooing. I was, you know, I'm an emotional Irishman. I'm one of those, right? So, you know, I see. I see a bird on the ground and it makes me cry, you know, so what's the bird doing if they're injured or something like that? So I. So I remember coming to on that, and I remember thinking that I have to tell people about this. And I don't know how to do that because I don't know that how many people would believe me or not. And then I came to the place where I really didn't care. What I really needed to do with is share it with people that I love and that know me and that know that I wouldn't make this up. And by virtue of the fact that I can still remember it vividly, I mean, vividly always leads me to believe that that is truthful, right? Because typically things that aren't, you know, you just kind of pass them off. But I remember this so vividly that nothing will ever tell me that Jesus wasn't present those two times with me there with me. So I've only shared it with a few people, you being the third that I've shared it with. I have not even shared it with my husband yet, but I will. He's got to be in the right place. Otherwise, you know, just like that conversation about, you Know I'm really sick. What's going to happen? He might be really practical and blow me off. So, so that was, that was my Covid experience. And then from that, you know, Jim was still doing those things. I mean, when he, When Jesus put his hand on me and it was his hand, I realized that he was taking care of me. And I mean, Jim did unbelievable amounts of things to get me. Well, he did say, and he did tell me, he said I was an excellent patient. Yay. Because, you know, I was. I couldn't do anything. I literally couldn't do anything. I was literally at the, at the mercy of whoever was tending to me. And I know I wouldn't have gotten that kind of care in a hospital. There's no way.

[14:34] KATHY HARMON CHRISTIAN: What an extraordinary, you know, experience you've had. And you said you've never been that sick. Never, never been the worst you've been.

[14:42] JIM DEVLIN: I might like that as a little child.

[14:45] KATHY HARMON CHRISTIAN: Yeah.

[14:47] JIM DEVLIN: Right.

[14:49] KATHY HARMON CHRISTIAN: But just not, I mean, just like your awareness of being really sick.

[14:54] JIM DEVLIN: Yes.

[14:55] KATHY HARMON CHRISTIAN: You know, that's. This is the first time and you're, you know, we hear so many things about COVID not being serious. And so you're, you're able to really sort of share. Express that your experiences. It's really serious.

[15:10] JIM DEVLIN: Well, for some people. You know, I had, I was under the perception when I heard people say, oh, yeah, I had it. And it was just like a little bit of a flu for a couple of days. And it used to really irritate me because I used to think they weren't too. Taken it seriously. And then after Covid, I thought, God bless those people. They've been blessed because they didn't have it any worse than they did. Right. And they, they were blessed as a result. So I, you know, and the other thing was, is I was really on the fence about the vaccine because I didn't know that it was tried and true or tested long enough. And now that I've had Covid, there's absolutely no question in my mind that I'm getting the vaccine because I never want to outside of my Jesus experience. I don't want to have to be that sick experience him. Do you know what I mean?

[15:55] KATHY HARMON CHRISTIAN: Yeah.

[15:55] JIM DEVLIN: And with my gym experience, I realized that he's so tangible in all the people I. I love.

[16:03] KATHY HARMON CHRISTIAN: Yeah.

[16:04] JIM DEVLIN: You know what I mean? So tangible. And, you know, so that was kind of what my whole thing was with, with COVID Wow. It was a horrible thing.

[16:17] SPEAKER C: Can I. I'm sorry, Jim, do you mind telling Kathy? So just a bit about the chronology. When did you know and how did you find out?

[16:30] JIM DEVLIN: January 11th is when I had Covid. We went and got tested, and I wasn't really feeling anything all that intensely yet, I don't believe. But we decided. Jim and I decided we'd both go get tested. We did. And my test came back positive. And so I was sick. And so. So I was sick from that time until I went and got my exit test, so to speak, on February 5th is when I was cleared of COVID So from the 11th, the time period was probably a day or two after that is really when we got into being sick. You know, it started getting progressively worse. You know, I wasn't hungry to eat anything. I lost my taste. I lost my smell. I had no appetite for everything. And even today, I have a really hard time with cooked hot chicken and cooked hot beef. I'm kind of adjusting to the chicken because you can do so many different things to that. That makes it not chicken, but, like, steak and hamburger and stuff like that. The smell on the side of it just turns my stomach.

[17:42] KATHY HARMON CHRISTIAN: Really? Wow.

[17:43] JIM DEVLIN: Yes.

[17:45] KATHY HARMON CHRISTIAN: And that's totally new since COVID Well, yeah.

[17:48] JIM DEVLIN: I mean, you know, what do we have for Christmas? We made that of New Year's. That. That huge steak roast that I made. Remember that?

[17:56] KATHY HARMON CHRISTIAN: Yeah. Yeah.

[17:57] JIM DEVLIN: So I'm. I was a real fan of a good steak and a good burger.

[18:01] KATHY HARMON CHRISTIAN: Yeah.

[18:02] JIM DEVLIN: But now the thought of it just. Even the smell of it just. It just. So chin. Then the chicken, too. And Jim's like, oh, God, what are we gonna eat?

[18:14] KATHY HARMON CHRISTIAN: Vegetarian, my friend.

[18:17] JIM DEVLIN: So I keep thinking of.

[18:19] KATHY HARMON CHRISTIAN: No, no. So I was gonna. I wanted to go back to your. Your experience with Jesus, and. Have you ever had an experience like that before?

[18:29] JIM DEVLIN: Yes, but differently. And that was. I was in therapy with a Catholic priest who I love and adore. Love and adore. And he's what kind of brought me out as a healthy gay person, so to speak. I was married at the time. My kids were young. I was in therapy with. I used to drive 45 minutes to an hour to him every week and. And then go to work. And he was. We were together for about three years, and he brought me through the process of. It's okay, Jim, that you're gay. You know, your wife probably already knows. Although I. You know, I think she may have suspected, but not because of anything I'd done, but because of what other people might have said to her. But I. You had. The question is. Is that. And I can remember leaving therapy one morning, driving in my car, and feeling this entire presence of light. Light. And that God was just. I mean, just in an envelope me while I was driving. I burst into tears. I pulled over to the side of the road and I felt absolutely nothing but incredible joy to be who I was. And the words that I heard were, jim, I love you just the way you are. You need to live your truth. That was another really significant time when I knew that there was no question that God was there and he loved me just the way I was. Now I wish I'd been able to carry that forward in my life because, you know, I still went through the self hatred and all that kind of stuff and the people I hurt and all this kind of stuff. But, you know, God's always there waiting for me to turn and come back.

[20:17] KATHY HARMON CHRISTIAN: So. Yeah, I mean. And so now that you've had this incredible Covid experience and these two incredible experiences with Jesus and you're, you know, kind of trying to get back into regular life, how do you think you'll carry that with you? Or how are you carrying it with you?

[20:35] JIM DEVLIN: Well, I think I told you that, you know, when you look at every human being and you see God, it's the first thing I try to think of every time I encounter a person, especially somebody that. Whose views or philosophies might not be the same as mine.

[20:49] KATHY HARMON CHRISTIAN: Yeah.

[20:50] JIM DEVLIN: That I don't have to bear my soul to every individual that I meet, but I can be kind and compassionate and loving and recognize that they're on a journey too. And that the hard part is to what can I do to fan the flames? And sometimes it's just listening, being, you know, in that one on one relationship. So that's my goal. And, you know, part of that is recognizing your own shortcomings and be able to put them in check, you know, before you encounter another person. Right.

[21:26] KATHY HARMON CHRISTIAN: Yeah. Yeah, right. So it's. Did you think about why or did you think about the Blessed Mother when you. Because you. I would have. I guess I would have just assumed that maybe she would have come to you because you have such a devotion to her.

[21:42] JIM DEVLIN: That's a good point. My spirituality is very. Marian. I very much love the Blessed Mother, but for some reason over the past year, you know, Mary's always said, you know, the prayers aren't for me. The prayers are to Jesus. Direct all your prayers to Jesus. So when I pray the rosary or something like that, which I do often, I'm really thinking about Jesus and I feel this closeness to Jesus that I've never felt, you know, so early on when my coming out story, God was just God. There was no, he wasn't Jesus. He wasn't the Holy Spirit, he wasn't Mary or anybody. He was just God. This was clearly two instances with Jesus. Now, I would have loved for Mary to be there, but I think that she likes the fact that I continue to pray the rosary and all that kind of stuff and I am directing my prayers to Jesus. I think she likes that. Yeah, because that's what she tells us to do, to direct all your prayers to Jesus. Don't worship me. He's the one you need to be worshiping and praying to.

[22:49] KATHY HARMON CHRISTIAN: Well, it sounds like you, like you somehow tapped into that.

[22:57] JIM DEVLIN: Well, I think it's about praying though, in the openness. But, you know, he came to me at the time, Kathy, that I was helpless, literally, physically, mentally, emotionally. I mean, had nothing to give.

[23:10] KATHY HARMON CHRISTIAN: And what do you make of that? What do you make of why that would be the time?

[23:14] JIM DEVLIN: Well, and it could have been different for different people. I think that, that when we are our most vulnerable is when we are most open. And so we're, we're okay with hearing the voice of God and you know, you know, stories and I can tell story, you know, people that have talked to God and they know that they've just been spoken to, but it's that openness, you know, the telltale sign of a really spiritual human being in my mind is when you're in their presence, you feel nothing but peace. Nothing but peace.

[23:50] KATHY HARMON CHRISTIAN: But I do, I do think that God often, I mean, if you look at history and so often you see St. Francis after the, you know, he was laid up for over a year from being shot in the Crusades. And that's what transformed his life, is his right, his having to be quiet and still and listen. And I also think about, and I think about my brother who when you were saying that, I made the direct connection because even though he's paralyzed, he can feel pain. And much of his life is he can't sleep. He's counted every single infinitesimal water spot on the ceiling of his room because he doesn't sleep much. And so I do understand that notion of body aches. And I mean, I think it can almost be, you know, a, it's almost an out of body experience to be in that much pain. Right?

[24:44] JIM DEVLIN: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[24:48] KATHY HARMON CHRISTIAN: But so interesting what you talked about, that in that moment you felt like you could, you wanted to suffer even more. Do you know what that was about?

[24:56] JIM DEVLIN: That was, it was surprising to me too, because I can tell you I do not enjoy pain. People, People will tell you that, you know, they think I have a very low pain tolerance. And I'll say I don't, but they think that I do. And. But I'm not one that would really like to suffer. But there was something about, in each of those moments that it was almost like a gift. It was almost like I wanted to because I want. I loved him so much and I wanted to do what I thought he wanted me to give him. And there was nothing about my being that was reserved or held back. It was. I was all in. If you need for me to suffer more, please give it to me. I'll do it, I promise. I. I can handle it. And all this kind of stuff, which, you know, surprised me, honestly.

[25:43] KATHY HARMON CHRISTIAN: But I have to say that I'm happy that Jesus said no, because I think you have suffered a lot. And I don't think, I don't think he wants you to take on more than you have. I think that's so funny that you say that. A beautiful message.

[25:59] JIM DEVLIN: Yeah. And it's. But still, I still think to myself that I haven't suffered enough. I look at people in the world and I haven't suffered nothing in comparison to what people, how people in the world have suffered. And I think, how can I make their lives easier? And the only way I know how to do that is to pray for them. Right. That seems to be the way to communicate with God the best. And, you know, if you're avid about it and diligent and disciplined in doing it, I think that God rewards you. You know, we don't see what God does. You know, in my little data sheet form I wrote that I've been so very blessed in my life with. Just blessed in many ways. And one of the lines I put in there was that I've been blessed in many ways that I don't even know. You know, because we can't see all the supernatural, spiritual kinds of things and we can't see all the protections that we may have gotten. So I'm sure there's many ways that all of every human being has been helped, but they don't know at all.

[27:06] KATHY HARMON CHRISTIAN: Yeah. So can we shift gears a little bit? Unless. Do you have anything else you wanted to mention about that? It's very powerful and I'm glad you were able to share it. So thank you.

[27:16] JIM DEVLIN: You're welcome.

[27:17] KATHY HARMON CHRISTIAN: So you mentioned your coming out story and so can you share that again?

[27:24] JIM DEVLIN: Okay. So my coming out story, it was really an interesting thing. You know, Irish Catholic. My dad was in the Navy. I got married, had kids, because that's what I was supposed to do. And I don't mean to be rude accrued or anything like that, but when you're young, you can really have sex with anybody, let's face it.

[27:44] KATHY HARMON CHRISTIAN: I mean, some people can.

[27:47] JIM DEVLIN: Most men can, I would say, because you're young and your body is doing all this stuff. Right. So I thought to myself, you know, at one point in time I thought about being a priest. And then it was. I learned I couldn't have sex. So I thought that was completely out of the question.

[28:05] KATHY HARMON CHRISTIAN: And that's true for many people.

[28:07] JIM DEVLIN: Okay, all right. Right. So. So anyway, so I. I came to the place in my relationship and take, keep this in mind. I loved my wife. I still love my wife to death. We had two beautiful kids together. She and her husband, who I introduced them to, are some of my dearest and closest friends. In fact, I just talked to her yesterday for about 45 minutes. So we're very close. Right.

[28:32] KATHY HARMON CHRISTIAN: And I love that that you introduced.

[28:34] JIM DEVLIN: Your ex wife to my best friend.

[28:37] KATHY HARMON CHRISTIAN: To your friend who's now her husband.

[28:40] JIM DEVLIN: Yes.

[28:41] KATHY HARMON CHRISTIAN: Oh my God, talk about amazing.

[28:42] JIM DEVLIN: And they've been married for 30 years.

[28:45] KATHY HARMON CHRISTIAN: More divorced people could learn from you.

[28:48] JIM DEVLIN: So anyway, so in the whole coming out process we were going through all this, Marion kind of learned of, you know, she didn't know that I was gay, but she thought maybe I always have. I was a slut, let's put it that way. You know, I was gay, I was in a marriage with a woman. I really wanted to be with men. So I'm ashamed to say it. I've offered it in confession. I was a slut. I slept with everybody. It was amazing that I even lived. But she thought something was going on. And then she started hearing gossip and all those kinds of things. Put two and two together. And so through my therapy process, I remember sitting on our front porch in Maryland and coming out to her and she said, I know. We both cried, we hugged each other. It was very humbling and very loving, A beautiful thing. And then, you know, so we kind of decided, we separated bedrooms and then kind of went down this path of moving toward divorce and what we're gonna do with the kids. We even got therapy to. For the kids, family counseling for. So that if they started hearing things, you know, they were young, they were only like 10 and 6, that they would know kind of how to. What to say and what not to say or what they thought. And so then I had to tell my parents and I did. And my dad said, well, I don't understand it, but I love you anyway. And my mother said, you know, I think I've always known. I said, well, of course you've always known. I used to watch you put your. Not that I wanted to get dressed up in women's clothes, but I used to watch her put her makeup on with fascination like this, like, wow, how do you do all that? And. And you know, said, I think I've always known. So, so it kind of went. Started going down that road. I started coming out to people. Some people, people received it well, some people didn't receive it well. The interesting thing about my kids, my son Sean, who was six, when we had the conversation with him, he said, he said, well, I'm gay too.

[30:35] KATHY HARMON CHRISTIAN: Did Sean say that?

[30:37] JIM DEVLIN: Because he said, he said, well, I'm gay too because I love my friend Casey, you know, so, you know, it was just cute. It was a cute thing. And then as my kids got older and Marion and I were separated, this was really interesting too. When I asked my kids about Marian and I getting divorced, both of them said no, it wasn't really a big deal for us. We knew that you both loved us very much and now we had other people that were giving us.

[31:00] KATHY HARMON CHRISTIAN: That is precious. That is precious.

[31:04] JIM DEVLIN: Yeah.

[31:05] KATHY HARMON CHRISTIAN: Okay, so we have. I have to ask you, how did you meet Jim?

[31:11] JIM DEVLIN: Okay, kind of a seedy story. We met in a bar. I. I actually met him in a bar at the wee hours of the night. I was actually there with my ex partner and he walks in, our eyes met and we did not leave each other's side until 4am we learned about each other's lives. I like the fact that he not only was incredibly handsome, but that he was Italian, that he was raised, he's a cradle Catholic and that he was very much into his Italian heritage. I very much into my Irish heritage and was a cradle Catholic. And we had a of that stuff in common. And he lived in Florida at the time and was playing at the opera at the Fox Theater. And I remember when he left, he told me about his story about his ex that just got up in the middle of the night and disappeared with his dog and everything. And Jim never heard hide nor hair. He could have been murdered for all he knew. So he went back to work in Florida and I sent him a dozen yellow roses because I told him at one point in time during the conversation, I said, you just need some old fashioned wooing. So I sent to where he worked. I sent him a dozen yellow roses, and I. And I wrote on the car. So everybody in his office was like, who's Mr. Woo? What did you do in Atlanta?

[32:29] KATHY HARMON CHRISTIAN: Okay, did you have more?

[32:33] JIM DEVLIN: Well, and then that's how it started. Then we were on the phone every night together. He lived, ironically enough, two miles from where my sister lived in Tampa. So Thanksgiving, we met on Halloween. Thanksgiving, I was there. Christmas, I was there. I mean. And then finally, after about a year, I asked him if he wanted to move in.

[32:50] KATHY HARMON CHRISTIAN: So. So this was the thing that your lovely husband was not supposed to tell you, because this was a slight little trick, because we asked him how he met you, and so I wanted to ask you how you met him. And I am so touched that your stories match up really well. And. And on top of that, he added a. You. You both added detail to the real. To the story. And it's just lovely because you both remember it very fully and very clearly, especially about you. Locked eyes. And you were, you know, with each other the rest of the night. He said the other folks, because it was Halloween, were wearing costumes and you two weren't. He added that detail. But, oh, my gosh, how beautiful you two really are. Were absolutely meant to be together.

[33:38] JIM DEVLIN: And I liked going out on Halloween to gay bars because of the drag queens. You know, they get wasted and they have these big headdresses on, and they'd be tilting this way, and they'd be tilting that way, and the next thing you know, they're on the floor.

[33:50] KATHY HARMON CHRISTIAN: There's nothing like a good drag queen. I'm telling you. I love a good drag queen. Oh, my God, they bring so much joy.

[33:55] JIM DEVLIN: And he was there.

[33:56] KATHY HARMON CHRISTIAN: Yeah. Yeah, totally. Oh, Jim, that is so wonderful. Now, you've been together 20 years. You've been through a lot. You've been through a lot.

[34:04] JIM DEVLIN: Yes. Death of a child, and that's a whole different thing. And a lot of people died in our lives, starting with my grandmother. Starting in 2003. You know, we got together in 2011. So starting in 2000, 2001. And starting in 2003, my family started dying. Then his family died, all within five years. He became an only child with no parents.

[34:27] KATHY HARMON CHRISTIAN: And just. And how you guys have cared for all. I mean, you just cared. Your mother just died recently after she lived with you for eight years. Years. Just extraordinary. And what. What was her name again, Pat?

[34:42] JIM DEVLIN: Patricia.

[34:43] KATHY HARMON CHRISTIAN: Patricia Devlin And so recent. I mean, how do you. How do you feel about that now.

[34:49] JIM DEVLIN: When, you know, my mother and I were so Close. Growing up, I couldn't have had a better mother. However, when she got older and my dad started declining and they almost like, changed roles, My dad, who I was not close to, I got very close to at the end of his life. My mother, who I was to. Oh, my God, she was a witch at the end of her life, and we were just combative. But when she died, I. It was unexpected. She did die at home, though, thank God. It was so unexpected. After they came and took her away, I laid in her bed for two days sobbing, because of the relationship we had at the end of her life. And all I could do was apologize. And I could hear her say to me, I love you, Jimmy. You know, I love you. And she knows that I loved her. And it just. It was just the circumstances, you know, of taking care. Nobody can prepare you for taking care of a parent. It's really.

[35:41] KATHY HARMON CHRISTIAN: Well, and most people don't do it. I think it's extraordinary that you and your husband, you know, didn't even see each other for so many Christmases because he was going to take care of his mother and you were taking care of your mother. I mean, that's pretty extraordinary, you know, and. And I just. You know, I feel like sometimes I just want people to understand that for whatever they might feel about gay people, you're the heartbeat of our church most of the time. I mean, honestly, the devotion and the love and the way in which you keep the church going in spite of the persecution. It's often persecution within the church, especially Christian church. And then how you care for your parents. I mean, most of us, to be quite honest, there our parents are in, you know, are not cared for at home.

[36:36] JIM DEVLIN: And you have, you know, my. My dad. My dad. Jim became my dad's best friend before he died. I mean, literally, my dad would tell you that when things were really bad at their place up in Alpharetta, they had code. If my mother was really being verbally abusive with him, he would say, oh, Jim and I are supposed to go to the movies of my mother. No, you're not. No, you're not. So she would call him up on the phone, said, you know, Dunk said that you're supposed to go to the movies. Dunk was my dad's nickname. Dunk. And Jim would say, oh, yeah, I forgot. Tell him I'll be there in 15 minutes. And that was code for him to get him out of the house. And they became very, very close. Very close. And when my relatives talk about what an. My dad was, Jim would come right to his defense. That is not the man that I knew. And it wasn't the man that I knew at the end of his life either, because my brother's sister and I looked at each other one time and said, where has he been all of our lives?

[37:31] KATHY HARMON CHRISTIAN: Yeah. What a testimony to how people can change, you know, depending on what you know. And. And how interesting, too, that whatever your parents both experienced that they kind of flipped at the end. That's so interesting. But you knew that because you were with them, you know, I think that's extraordinary.

[37:46] JIM DEVLIN: Yes, exactly.

[37:47] KATHY HARMON CHRISTIAN: And. And even now, you know, one of the things that this time of COVID has done is the four of us. So Ginger, you, me, and your husband, we have created our own church. We have. And the first of the month, we try to go to the cemetery to go see Ginger's husband Stewart, to go see who died this year, your mother who died this year, a neighbor of mine's son who died 12 years ago. And you know that we've created these new traditions that have come up in this time of COVID bringing devotions to our lives in an even more personal way.

[38:28] JIM DEVLIN: And I think a sense of peace about our loved ones and our lives. Right. You know, we feel that love and.

[38:34] KATHY HARMON CHRISTIAN: Connectedness, and I just love that you. A detail that I think is so important. When we first went out to the cemetery, out at Mount Vernon Cemetery there, you brought a little dustpan and a broom, and you. You'd sweep off and kind of cut around each of the graves, and you'd bring your own water bottles, and you'd bring different flowers for the season and how we go. And we would pray the whole rosary at your son Sean Devlin's grave. And we go over to Ginger's husband, Stuart Cashin, and her whole family and pray there. And we pass different priests, you know, along the way that are buried along the way. And we'd go over to Kenny Wiener's grave and just how all this kind of. This communion of souls and kind of praying over these folks. And I would say so much of that is your devotion and your practice of the faith. And I just. I just feel it's so important to shout out to the. To the beautiful gay men like you and like Jim, who are so faithful to each other, so loving and bring so much goodness into the world. And. And what a shame that so many people miss that. What a. What a shame.

[39:56] JIM DEVLIN: Right?

[39:57] KATHY HARMON CHRISTIAN: So.

[39:58] JIM DEVLIN: Yeah, so I've been blessed, like I said.

[40:02] KATHY HARMON CHRISTIAN: Well. Well, you've been blessed, but you also are A blessing. Your name, your memory, your life is a blessing to me, and I want you to know that. And I am so. You know, you are my found family. You are my found family. And I am honored to have two wonderful men both named Jim, who are my friend Jim Dublin.

[40:28] JIM DEVLIN: Yeah.

[40:28] KATHY HARMON CHRISTIAN: From our Spanish class. You will always now be Jim Dublin instead of Jim Dublin and Ginger and you and me. So I love you and I respect you.

[40:39] JIM DEVLIN: I love you, too.

[40:39] KATHY HARMON CHRISTIAN: And I am so glad we've had this time together.

[40:43] JIM DEVLIN: Me too.

[40:45] SPEAKER C: Jim, do you mind telling Kathy what made you decide to go get tested for Covid?

[40:55] JIM DEVLIN: We wanted to get tested anyway because it was going around and, you know, I was feeling a little lethargic, you know, achy and stuff like that. And Jim said, well, why don't we just go get a COVID test? And we just did. It was just time to make it happen.

[41:09] SPEAKER C: Could you also, if you don't mind, tell Kathy? So what did you feel when you got that positive test? What was going through your head?

[41:20] JIM DEVLIN: I was a little nervous. Okay. So when I got the COVID results positive, I was nervous from the standpoint that, okay, we don't really know what's going to transpire, you know, so this is when we're leading up to me having the conversation with Jim sitting in the bed. You know, do we need to have a conversation about this? Me coming from a very serious place of, you know, I could go south very quickly and die right as people. I'm 65, so I'm not the most 100% healthy person. So I was kind of nervous, honestly. And then it got really bad. And then I couldn't think of anything else but how I felt. And then I had the Jesus experiences. So it kind of. Any anxiety I had about dying kind of like went out the window.

[42:05] KATHY HARMON CHRISTIAN: Did you ever ask Jesus if you were gonna die? I just.

[42:10] JIM DEVLIN: Yes, the very first time. And he said, not. Not yet.

[42:13] KATHY HARMON CHRISTIAN: Wow.

[42:14] JIM DEVLIN: He said, no, I'm gonna be here with you.

[42:17] KATHY HARMON CHRISTIAN: Oh, wow, that's so cool.

[42:21] JIM DEVLIN: Okay, so.