Jean Anderson and Rosemary Ramroop

Recorded April 30, 2021 Archived April 29, 2021 38:43 minutes
0:00 / 0:00
Id: mby020624

Description

Friends and colleagues Rosemary Ramroop (57) and Jean Anderson (67) discuss their long friendship, Rosemary's experiences with being HIV positive, and the work they've done together in women's health.

Subject Log / Time Code

JA and RR discuss how long they've known each other. RR describes her experience learning that she was HIV positive.
JA talks about RR being one of her first patients with HIV. RR describes feeling isolated because of the treatment she received from others after her diagnosis. RR talks about her initial fears of visiting an HIV clinic.
JA talks about the lack of available treatments for HIV when RR initially got sick. RR describes how her fear kept her from seeking out treatment, and how important it was for her to learn more about HIV in order to survive.
JA talks about some of the first HIV drugs, and how they evolved over time. RR describes her experience trying to navigate those drugs.
RR describes her experience working with JA at a women's health program. She reflects on what's been most rewarding about her work, and describes how JA has become a family member to her.
JA and RR reflect on the bond they share, and discuss the fear and stigma in medicine surrounding HIV during the early days of the epidemic. RR talks about her life now.
JA reflects on when she knew she and RR had a bond. RR asks JA what it was like to give RR her diagnosis.
RR describes how her own experiences have helped her be the councilor she is today. She expresses her love and appreciation for JA.

Participants

  • Jean Anderson
  • Rosemary Ramroop

Transcript

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00:04 I'm Jean Anderson. I'm 67 years old. Today's date is Friday, April 30th, 2021. I am calling in from Rehoboth Beach where my conversation partner is Rose ramroop, who is a long time, patient colleague and friend.

00:32 Ambrose ramroop, I'm 57 years old, April 30th 2021. I am here in Dundalk, Maryland calling in.

00:46 And I my special friend. Yes.

00:52 Change.

01:00 Hygiene, how you doing? A rose?

01:12 What 33 years, 34 years has 34 years almost. Now, you know, we've been friends for a long time before we were friends. I was your doctor. Yes, I

01:32 I wanted to start out by asking you to tell me about the time you found out you had hid, I remember so clearly, December 22nd 1987. I was a patient at the Baltimore Health Plan. And I remember that when I found out you were walking down this, long hallway, and you would have one to give me my diagnosis and

02:09 That's how we first met. I didn't know you that well, during that time. But you're when you told me that I was positive, right then, and there was like, it went in one ear and I didn't hear nothing else after, but, I felt you touching. My hand asked me. Is there anything you can do or, you know, it was like,

02:33 Really much back, then that a person can say because this was like a death notice, you know that they were, you know, when when you were first diagnosed cuz you here so much, but then I was in a state of

02:48 I never accepted it.

02:50 I was.

02:52 Like really and then I looked at myself and I said, I don't look sick. And then I remember when I left that clinic and I was walking up the hill and I start wheezing. I thought I was ready to drop dead, right then and there cuz I thought that was it cuz I didn't understand what it meant to be hiv-positive. It was a little scary.

03:16 But then, I didn't believe it at one point. Did you, did you tell anybody? Oh, yeah, I told my mom my husband, but then they kind of my husband say, oh no, that's not, that's not possible. He's like, he didn't have it. And I'm like, okay, how do you say you probably got it by, you know, drawn people, blood and stuff. And then I thought they had a finger stick or anyting. But long story short. He had it, he knew he had it a year before he met me.

03:52 So that's when two years at a year. After that. I started investigating and life totally changed right in the net was like reality, really it in between 6 to 6 months to a year.

04:09 Because, you know, he had so many secrets.

04:15 I remember, I remember you very well. You were one of the first patients I ever had with Hib, you know, this was early enough that

04:31 I never learned about HIV in medical school, why I never learned about it or saw a patient residency.

04:42 And there was a lot of beer and stigma. Then that what it? What I remember you were afraid to tell people where to get care. Tell me a little bit more about the reason I was. So afraid is that, you know, when you talk to your family member, you think that's your biggest support that can help but my family turned against me is like nobody wants me around them. They treated my kids as though, they had the disease. So, like just completely stopped and I went into the real dark place that I felt alone. I felt isolated and I felt like I wasn't a part of human society because the way people were treating me. So,

05:35 I think I forced myself in a Denali. I just stopped going around people. I wouldn't open my shades. You know, I wouldn't let the light in but some reason when I had GYN issues and I needed to see a GYN provided you had left the health plan. So then those doctors didn't treat me very well. So I remember this lady told me, you went to John Hopkins and I followed your Trail to find you.

06:09 And you cuz you always treated me with respect and you didn't treated me different. So that's where I was like, I got to find this lady. I didn't know your first name. I just knew it was Anderson and I knew what you look like and I knew that southern accent so I had to find you and then that's where they day. I found you at the main hospital. So like was my wife and changed dramatically, even though I didn't believe it on one hand, but the way I was treated it changed completely in life.

06:46 Remember initially you didn't want to go to an HIV Clinic. They scheduled me to come to this clinic at Hy-Vee clinic and when I walk through the doors, people would look like they were about ready to the diet. Look like a.

07:12 How would I describe it?

07:15 People was so sick and so frail, they look so different from anything I ever saw and it was a lot of males and back then I didn't believe I had it because the fact that I said, this was a gay male disease. I'm not gay. I'm not a male. So I said somebody had to make a mistake. So when they went back there, that's good. Morning friend. I'm praying out that door. I went in the door. So I have to go. See people were and I ran back out that door and I wouldn't come to the clinic. And then I had a nurse named Sharon that used to call me to get me to come back in and I was like, all right, I'll come today, but I'm not coming any other time but then you had started a clinic in that clinic and because you started that clinic in that clinic, I will come for GYN.

08:11 Basically, I was like getting my Healthcare monitor through you, instead of primary care provider. And then that's when you introduced me to Jean the other Jean color, and she became my primary care provider. But even though,

08:28 That's when it was scary. I would not sit. If I had to send in that waiting room. I would get up and leave and if somebody came and set my name out loud, as amp out on them because I didn't want to be known in that clinic. So then my nurse she's so sweet. She used to catch me before I could run out that Clint soon as she knew I was at. She was flagged as you would have me come and sit to the back and wait until I was staying and that's how I was. So non-complying though, even though all that. I was just non-compliant. I would not come out like you. All right. I got an appointment, but I wouldn't come and then Jean Callaway completely to GYN. And I had to get a male doctor, another doctor. And I could not stand the mail. I went in the room when I first met this doctor and I came back out to Gene Keller and told her. Oh, no, you got to be my provider cuz I don't like him. He's not a good doctor.

09:27 And he said, oh, you should give him a chance. I said, no, I want you to be my doctor and she said, I can't and I said, well, I guess I'm a wind up dying and she was like, I'm going to talk to her, you know, and the next thing I know, when I sat down with him, he was kind of like I know what's going on with you. It was like people would talk to you but not talk talk at you but not to you. And I looked at him when I say will, you can't treat me for nothing. If you don't know what I'm here for, I ain't talkin to you, and that's when he changed his whole tone and he sat there to get to know me as that person and we good friends today, you know, so he became like, and I'm a hypochondriac. So everything. When I saw people die, and I knew I had it. I said, oh I look like that my hair thinning, you know, what nothing was wrong with me. I look healthy, you know, so but I can't, you help me get to that clinic.

10:26 Oh.

10:28 You know, when you were first diagnosed, we really didn't have any treatment. No, I remember telling you that I could take care of you up to a point. Ya heard it getting sick.

10:44 That you needed some more infectious disease specialist, Karen.

10:53 Yeah, it happens.

10:57 I mean, you started getting sick. I got chicken 94 around the middle of 94. I thought of losing weight and then cuz I hadn't had a CD4 count was back. Then. All he did was CD for. I hadn't had a CD4 count drawn and almost seven years cuz I would never go get my labs done. I was very young compliant. I was scared to find out. I felt like no news was good news. If I don't know about, I don't have to deal with it. And so, when I finally got my CD4 count done and it came back that I had 33 teeth. So I was living a new diagnosis all over again and it just became more of a reality but it didn't settle in until

11:45 You know, I remember the new medications was coming out and that was in 95, but by then I had this rash on my face. My head is molluscum in my head and I never heard of molluscum a day in my life, but it was huge. I had like a big one and then this man came through the door. I remember, my nurse was rolling him to the back to the treatment center and his man. Look, the phone. He had molluscum all over his face and I sold my God, that's what I'm going to look like. So like I told you, I was a hypochondriac everything, anybody happen to me and

12:22 Joel and 95 had told me about the new cocktail, drugs, the heart therapy and I was absolutely. I was like no, I don't want it. I want it. But, you know, how he got me to take it. All he had to say, was these words that he said, I found out from some of my patients that when they started heart that face cleared up their act up the skin, irritations and diseases, cleared up message. Okay, write me to prescription. He knew how to use. He was lying to me. So, well, that he could use things to know that I was very vague about how I met my parents was that he could use that and that's how he got me to start taking the heart medicine and then I was on Crooks Ave and AZT and another one. And then I got these big, huge Dolly, Parton breast.

13:20 That I was like I was like what my prayers really changed. But then I start seeing people with this thing called Kristen Van belly, and that was kind of making me. Like, I want to take this medicine, they were looking pregnant and there were men. That was the one that that look pregnant. They say they legs got small and I remember one time I told Joel that he's that I had a little bit of a button. You took it away by put me on these drugs. I got the Dolly Parton boobs, but no, but and but he encouraged me to take them. And then, I kept getting kidney stones.

13:58 And I had him seven times and I told him if he got to figure out something else. If it's not breathing, then I'm coming off the medicine and he knew I was going to take myself off and then another regiment. So by then regiments was starting to come in, and he would help me. Studying. I had to learn about HIV in order to survive. That's why I would come in and ask you questions, even though I was, you know, asking for myself sometime, I use the third person say, oh my friend had this or somebody I know had this, you know, to learn the information not to let y'all know. I wanted to learn it but

14:38 Do he taught me? You taught me, especially when it came to complications with GYN in Hy-Vee, so I'm not from the back.

14:49 So let me you know, I think on the medical side of it at that point, you know, we were we had very few.

15:01 AZT was the first job. We had drugs.

15:08 Then, you know.

15:12 Fortunately, we were just one step ahead and more drugs that were developed and more we learned and you can ride in the time. To really remember. Ricky told me told me that I was going to be used as a guinea guinea pig, and that he was wants to buy them and I wasn't and I looked at him and I said, well, you don't have MD behind your name. So I guess Imma have to go with the guinea pig and I told him because of our relationship in the lies. I didn't trust him, but

15:57 When the Act was out for some reason, I would did not want to take AZT because I kept saying how people nails are getting darker skin tones with changes and then you come and find out, they really didn't know how to dose.

16:13 To really properly dosed patients and stuff. And that's what, you know, it was like, you know, people were dying by the waterfalls and, you know, and I really

16:27 Appreciate the gay community because of the gay community, that enforced a lot of issues of finding ways of helping us.

16:37 I want to change your face has two women that were heterosexual that are getting infected by their Partners or their husbands, you know, and

16:49 It helped me motivate me to want to help other women just like myself. Cuz I kind of said, if Jeanne can help somebody. What can I do? What part can I do? And I think when I came to your member, having this conversation with you and I told you, I said, when I've had got sick, people wanted me to go on disability and I was in the GYN office with you and I was crying. I said, I think if I go on disability is submitting that something is wrong and I think I'll dye. My work is my life. It's keeping me alive. And you was like if that's the way you feel, you should continue doing what you doing. So

17:34 You was a big encouragement to me. So, when did you start coming? Start working with our program with our women's day in 93, October 21st of 93. I remember that cuz I was working with another program and then I remember coming out about my disease. I got angry about men having Affairs knowing that they had this virus and I felt like I had to warn women and

18:13 When you asked me to call you no work for you. I was happy. I was I am honored to work for that. You were like, you are Legend and everybody was like, you were that the Archangel that save people, you know, even if you we didn't even if people die, you, you, you show so much compassion to wear.

18:39 Patient. It was like they didn't want to see no other GYN person, but you so your lines was getting so long and I was like why it's taking me so long to see Jeanne and I just realized it was so many women. They love you. It's not just me that you helped a lot of women.

18:56 So grows your, you've been such an important part of our program, since that time 1993 the most rewarding.

19:10 Can you do with that program? Helping other women about our program? Is that in? OB and GYN one? It was empowering women to help educate women to learn about their health and spicy ones that were pregnant. I had my mission not that it was the same and you have is to prevent transmission from mother to child and also have the mom stay healthy. Because, you know, when we do HIV is not just taking care of the mom, is the whole family, you know, because it's the whole family in that that household not together, then it's going to have a breaking point. So it's so rewarding, just to see women.

20:03 Get on Madison and state on Madison.

20:07 And we have,

20:11 What's S2000? No infected babies so far? We got knock on wood. So and the amazing training that you have done among doctors because

20:28 If it wasn't for your training and then I help you with a lot of that we doing presentation is going from here today. These doctors was so ignorant and y'all changed the whole outlook. Just look at patients now.

20:42 So I'm just saying, I love what I do is a rewarding job at first was just oh, I got to warn people but then it became bigger.

20:54 It became bigger, just quit clarifying, question. Could you just describe a little bit about what the program is? The name of it? Things like that? And then do we name the program? When we just say the special for the patients and stuff?

21:26 And so coming to, let me just say that we reproductive Health Care to women with HIV pregnant and non-pregnant women.

21:42 And that's a rewarding job, you know actually made a career out of it.

21:48 You know, didn't know it was going to turn into that, but I did. And then I was going to just

21:56 Hey, that, you know.

21:59 If we look back 33 almost 34 years you were so afraid. I was were you didn't want to tell people and now you speak and have spoken all over the country.

22:17 About about HIV. You know what? Tell me how that's how that's been because well, let's try be changed. And yeah, they are has changed but it's still there.

22:35 The thing about it is that when I start speaking out about it, I started out of anger because I wanted to stop my husband from passing the Box, the other women, but then it became bigger than that. Because I saw something more than this. It was the way people treated at with people. So it was a good time to talk about scenarios, like, how family members, you know, when we'd put patients in the. ER, and if family members found out about their children, they was, I mean, we went through some more breakfast stuff with people spray Lysol on them. They put them out of their home for me. I was so afraid.

23:23 Because the fact that I had David had children at the time and I didn't want to be where if people was ripping people kids away from them, that from the positive one was like, okay. I'm going to take these kids so they don't have HIV with the mother or you know, it was like I am new families and I was so terrified of that to where that's where some things we used to hear with people, tell you what they want you to know, but not what was really going on and I didn't have that fear with telling you. So what I did was you became a family member to me cuz I couldn't tell my own family. The things I told you and I said, well, they cast me out of that family. I'm going to build my own family. So I went and got a sister to sister. I got you Sharon, at your three, you Shannon Jean. And then I went and got a brother that he was so annoying at 2.

24:23 That was Joe Gallant. But the thing is, is that from that I was able to talk to you guys. I think if I had a held back in.

24:35 It would have died, you know? Because you encourage me and I never felt with everybody there that I was being judged or like when I would go to the ER or something and I told the doctor how I became infected and they'll go. Oh you had to use drugs and I'm like I never used drugs the day in my life or you was a prostitute. I'm not a prostitute, you know, so people didn't realize that you can get this disease just from one person.

25:10 And it happened. So I just build our friendship in a relationship and became we became family it. So people used to ask me about my family, after all Jing Jing, Zhou, my family and you guys had a relationship with my children. So this thing is now from what it was back, then how, you know, people, you know, what put people out and they had nowhere to go. That's the fearful thing. And then losing their job. You know, God bless me in so many ways. He landed me this job. He bought, he, drew me to you, because I always wanted to work somewhere where I didn't have to fear about. My HIV status is like, hard to keep a secret. And is it a kill you to keep that secret and hear when I start working for you? I didn't have to keep those Secrets. I mean, I came like an open book.

26:10 It took a while but it became a big open book and

26:16 Then I think, because of that and my family saw that this didn't bring me down. That's when I start seeing a little bit acceptance from them, a little bit normalcy, but no, it's a, you know, never have I

26:34 I've always, you know, and Families. My media family. I have gotten thrown up in my face about my disease and stuff, and then people was telling people that something that was not true. But you won't why listen to that and tell my own truth? And that's what I did.

26:53 You know, I think that

26:55 Those of us who were

27:00 Around in those early days on the medical side. There was a lot of fear and stigma.

27:09 Oh, we were some.

27:12 Sometimes isolated and I think all of us really bonded with each other. My best friends come from those days. Best friend and and that includes you mentally help each other. Cuz we saw so Much Death.

27:32 Back, then. It was like it was not a day went by that. I didn't that somebody didn't die or more people die. Now you don't see that.

27:44 Yeah, it's a. We used to have weekly medical meetings of the service and that's exactly what it was. It was all the people who have died.

28:01 But it's it's like a miracle Rose.

28:09 Tell me about your life now, because well, I'm going to tell you. I never thought I would have this life I have now with my first husband died in that headset reality for me. Oh, wow. This disease is real because, you know at that time. Nobody was really getting sick. Like we were but then 94 even though I got sick. I still didn't believe it, you know, and then

28:36 When I met my husband, I'm with now. We be married for 23 years. December 1st, will be 23 years and we chose the sum of the first because that was World AIDS day. And I told him, I said, well, you know what?

28:53 AIDS day. I had to live in always different and I said, I want to do something positive on that day. And that was the day, we chose to get married. So he's negative and I always thought that, you know, he treated me with so much respect. You know, I always kept saying people kept telling me when you let other people in your life. That's all he going to benchley. Throw stuff up in your face. Never did you can have arguments or whatever? Never done that ever ever. And he's a wonderful man. So, you know, and we even had no one and I'm positive. We had it a child even after, you know, we look, we came to you about the safe way of doing it. And back then, people were still.

29:41 Discriminating about a person should not have children, you know, and all the, the the medication and stuff, we knew then and the transmission. Right, you know, you had to go to the back for me, on a lot of stuff because I had my tubes tubes, tied, and I got in reverse and, you know, I never forget that when I talk to you about it, you was like, absolutely. But the thing is, is that we wasn't sure how it was going to get paid for. And I said, well, you know, if there's a will, there's a way God will provide and

30:20 Here it is. And that baby is 20 years old and she's negative. So, and I knew women were going to want not just me cuz I remember I can't see you as a third person. I said, you know, I hear around the women talking about. Now that transmission is down to 5.5%. It was like 8 to 5 %, Oregon them, taking the other medication was bought at 2%. I said that people thinking about having babies all over again. And you know, what time you want to come to me before anybody gets pregnant and I was in there, tell her. I'm just let me just be honest. I want to have a baby. I want to get that license that I didn't have, you know, because my life as being a wife.

31:09 It was like once 87 happen. December 22nd, my life changed and it was no more happiness of being married and my husband now, he's a good stuff over and I still have wondered what it would be like to have a baby with him, and you encourage me so much. And here it is. That little pumpkin. She was a preemie. She's here, and she's going to look like, no, cuz that's a big girl.

31:39 So I looked at what, what, what I did in life I encourage other women because you can have that normal life.

31:51 And it's just that learning about your HIV learning how to control, taking your medicine, and keep an open communication. Because I remember, when I brought my husband to you, to talk to him about my HIV status, because I said, he won't believe it, for some reason, because, you know, what is everything look good, feel, good smell. Good, to you, ain't always good for you. But the thing is, I told him, I said, if you don't want to, if you don't be with me, you need to know how to protect yourself. And that's why I was like, my goal was to educate him and then he thought and he ain't nobody in his family. So his whole family know, they accepted me, you know, and I was like and it was a funny thing. He was like, when should we tell anybody? I said, well, that's because if they don't like me,

32:41 Is because they don't like me because of me. I don't want them to use this disease to say. Oh, I don't like rose. So when they everybody found out in 94 because I did that documentary, remember that documentary. That's what they said. It was supposed to be just for educational base, but it went worldwide. So his mother everybody found out during that time and she looked at me and said Rosie.

33:09 Its 270 have it, I said no. And I talked to her about it. And then she said, what I love you so much. You want to die outside, Lady ain't down. I said, I ain't Donald what you a whole lot. So, you know and I had to educate dumb because when I start saying that they were having relationship issues, so now is good. Let me just ask you before we finish. If you have any questions, you've always wanted to ask, you always wanted to ask you this.

33:45 When you first met me, because I always want to the relationship. We have is like sisters. We we can be friends. We sisters you when I got sick. Remember when I got sick and I've lost all that weight than anything. And I was going to all these medicine, 30, 30 pills, and I said, I'ma die you and Gene came to my house with me, orange juice and lemonade, you would just come no matter what, what made you think? How do you think our relationship will always want to know? How did we just get here? You know? Because you are a doctor and I used to look at people as doctors not like, you know, friends like that, but we had something. I just want to know from you. When did you know?

34:34 You know what?

34:36 As I said, I I

34:40 I never learned about HIV when I was in medical school or residency. I remember the first patient. I saw just a few months before I met you, you had Hy-Vee and I stood outside her door.

34:56 And thought can I go in, you know, and I felt some beer and I if I can't go in and treat her.

35:07 Like any other patient and I can't be a doctor. And I, I decided right. Then that

35:17 This is what I wanted to do. This was sort of my mission and I, you know, and it wasn't much I could do at that time, but I felt like

35:32 It was important to me to get people Comfort if I couldn't care of them and if I couldn't help them live. So you came along not long after that, and I just we just we just clicked and department, but I would not see nobody else, but you and you took me on no matter what.

36:00 So, I just kind of wondering cuz, you know.

36:04 Me and you became more than just friends. We became family, but to see your eyes and your compassion when you walk down that Hall and you saw me that you had to give that diagnosis. How was that for you?

36:23 Well, it's it was like giving a death sentence, you know, you

36:33 I don't know if I can even express. You are one of the most important people in my life together, you know, when our moms was here and they got sick. We've been through a lot together.

36:52 And you're, you're an amazing role model for women. You've helped a lot of women.

37:05 Come to the park with their HIV, helping them with disclose disclosing Dad, helping them deal with the fear and the stick and you are very lucky to have met you from my experience of what I went through with my family and friends, help me be the counselor. I am today because I've experienced a lot of that and I know when I see patients come through the door, I don't understand what they going through. I have a meeting where they at and build that trust one, but I have to build that trust very fast because now everybody call me Mama.

37:50 Mac, say they want your grandchild wants your Mike Holcomb. I got that many grandkids, but them, but I just remember, I can see your face and your white coat walking down the hall and look like you was ready, cry more than me.

38:08 So that's why I was like you amazing person and I love you. I love all the people that took care of me because I don't think I've been here if it wasn't for y'all and the educational, you know, when you educate someone and you educate them medical, you broke it down in the layman's term that I could understand.

38:30 And I appreciate.

38:34 And I love you. I love you, too.

38:38 Whatever.