Jeffrey Fisher and Deana Graham

[00:04] JEFFREYREY FISHER: My name is Jeffrey I'm 47 years old. Today is September 12, 2024, and I am in Cumming, Georgia, and I'm here with my one small step partner, Deana

[00:23] DEANA GRAHAM: And my name is Deana I wish I was 47, but I'm 60. Today is September 12. I'm in Columbus, Georgia, in my art studio where I teach classes, and I'm here with my one small step partner, Jeffrey

[00:43] JEFFREYREY FISHER: So I'm going to read Dina's bio. Deana is active, 60 year old says she can't believe it, who loves her church, Trinity Episcopal, taking her dog on hiking adventures, kayaking in the springs in Florida, laughing with her family, playing games, and teaching art.

[01:05] DEANA GRAHAM: And I'll read Jeff's bio. I grew up in southeast Tennessee. I taught 8th grade there for seven years. I then became a librarian. I met my wife online and have been married ten years. We have two wonderful children. Faith is important to me. I became a serious believer at the age of 19 through the church of Christ. My maternal grandmother had a big influence on me, and I was blessed that she lived into my late thirties. I grow more and more concerned with the anger I see in society.

[01:42] JEFFREYREY FISHER: So, Deana I will ask you, why did you want to participate in the one small step program.

[01:50] DEANA GRAHAM: To play on your bio? I think I grow more and more concerned myself with the anger and how we put people in groups and just assume you're. That I'm. That he's over there, she's over there, and I'm tired of it. I also am a avid listener to NPR, and I love story core, so anything they do, I thought, well, this will be good. I'll do it. And it just. Just the chance to meet someone and just share a friendly conversation. How about you? Why did you want to do this?

[02:29] JEFFREYREY FISHER: I think it was. I'll just echo some of what you said. I think it was the chance to just talk to someone. I feel like one challenge we face today is we don't have human connection maybe as much as we did in years past. I see that a lot with young people. You know, there's online contact, but I just don't think that's as deep or as important as just face to face interaction with people. Yep.

[03:05] DEANA GRAHAM: Yeah. It's a sad thing happening with our kids, too, because they think they're in touch with people, those things they do online. Based on my bio, what was your impression of me?

[03:19] JEFFREYREY FISHER: Well, it's interesting because it's sort of a small world, so we're episcopalian as well.

[03:25] DEANA GRAHAM: Oh, that's funny.

[03:26] JEFFREYREY FISHER: Yeah. Yeah, I came to, in fact, the whole family. We came to Episcopalianism about two years ago. We're just looking to make a change, and I think we found a really good parish to attend, and my kids have made a lot of connections. But I think one thing we liked about the faith was just, I think, a lot of open mindedness and willingness to listen to other people.

[03:55] DEANA GRAHAM: Yeah, yeah, I agree. I feel like we go to church with lots of different kinds of people, and I like that. So I guess the thing that jumped out, I don't know that I had an impression of you other than that. I immediately noticed some things we had in common from your bio, that I've been a teacher a long time. I no longer teach in schools, but I teach privately art lessons, which I just love. Groups and little kids, even adults. And then also that your grandmother had had such a strong impact on your life, because both of mine did, too. But one in particular, mine was my paternal grandmother. A lot of impact on my life, on my personality, on my christianity. So I really just. I kind of thought that was interesting. That was neat. I thought it was neat that you thought to write that.

[05:03] JEFFREYREY FISHER: No, it's. And that's interesting to hear as well. Yeah. I wouldn't say she had a tremendous amount of impact on, you know, I think I. In some ways, she had a big impact on my faith. In other ways, she didn't. She was not an active churchgoer most of my life. But then I would come into the house a lot of times, and I would hear her whispering as she read out loud. She had just this huge King James Bible that she would read out of, and she sang a lot of hymns walking around the house. But, you know, it was never like. How can I say? I never felt she thumped it over. Over my head, so.

[05:44] DEANA GRAHAM: Right. Yeah, it was pleasant.

[05:47] JEFFREYREY FISHER: Yeah.

[05:48] DEANA GRAHAM: Yeah. That's cool.

[05:52] JEFFREYREY FISHER: I'll just say real quick, it was interesting to read that or hear that you're, you know, an art teacher. I just. I'd be interested to see what you think about this. But I feel like art has a way to connect people, especially when people make art or do creative things. I feel like that's sort of a unifying activity.

[06:13] DEANA GRAHAM: I agree. I think it. Part of it is, it's relaxing for the most part, unless you're under some sort of stress about it. But, yeah, I think it breaks down your barriers, kind of. You stop living in your head so much and you just get a little more comfortable. And I know even with kids and with adults, there's always good conversations that come while people are creating. And they're always conversations I never would have thought would have come up. So it's kind of neat. I think it's a good bonding thing. I love it. So.

[06:52] JEFFREYREY FISHER: Yeah, that's good.

[06:53] DEANA GRAHAM: Yeah. So are you still a librarian?

[06:57] JEFFREYREY FISHER: I am, mm hmm. Yeah.

[06:59] DEANA GRAHAM: In a school. In a middle school.

[07:01] JEFFREYREY FISHER: No, in a public library. And I had done college libraries before that. Oh, that's been in libraries about 15. Yeah, close to 15 years. Yeah.

[07:11] DEANA GRAHAM: That's cool.

[07:13] JEFFREYREY FISHER: Yeah.

[07:14] DEANA GRAHAM: Well, the librarian, that was our, in our, we used to live in Covington, Georgia, and our children's, our favorite children's librarian, we've been gone from there from twelve years, and we still talk to her. So that's an important job. It's important to the world, to the community. So good job on that.

[07:39] JEFFREYREY FISHER: Well, thank you. I tell you, it's nice that you all made that connection. And I think it's important it seems like those connections, you make, that again, you can't really take the place of it online. You know, I think about those connections I have, and it, you don't see people person to person a lot, but you call them, and I feel like that's even so much better than an email or a text or.

[08:08] DEANA GRAHAM: Yeah. Yeah, I agree. Totally. Well, this is a, this is a biggie. What was your life like? What was life like for you growing up?

[08:22] JEFFREYREY FISHER: Yeah. Grew up in, just quickly. I grew up in southeast Tennessee. You know, looking back, I realized we were probably the income level I grew up at, which I don't, if we ever struggled financially, I wasn't aware of that. We were probably like, you know, what you call working class, lower middle class. Not totally sure how to define that. You know, lived in what, by today's standards is probably a smaller home, about 1700 square feet. Lived in a neighborhood in a small city. My parents got divorced when I was in high school and then both remarried. Had, you know, don't want to get too much in this. Had a lot of medical problems I had to deal with as a kid. But I think, you know, just had a really enjoyable childhood. It was the eighties. It was, you know, GI Joe was big, cartoons were big. He man, you know, it was, yeah. Cable tv. I don't even know if a lot of younger kids know what that is, but we had cable, so that was great. So it was Boy scouts. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I'll ask you the same question. What was your life like growing up?

[09:39] DEANA GRAHAM: I grew up in Athens, Georgia, so a medium sized town, but it was a kind of a cool place to grow up because there was always something going on since the university is there, so got to see a lot of sports things, cultural things. My parents were good about kind of taking advantage of that, so I didn't know to appreciate that then. I appreciate it a lot now. The same way, I think we all lived in smaller houses, and they were just fine. But I lived in a good, fun neighborhood where we all just lived at the pool, and that was fun. I did ballet. Seriously? Pretty much every day. And my parents got divorced when I was a freshman in high school, and that was really hard. My dad got remarried, and my mom never did. And then she. She was killed in a car accident when I was 27.

[10:40] JEFFREYREY FISHER: Okay. I'm sorry to hear that.

[10:42] DEANA GRAHAM: Well, thank you. I look back on it now, and I think, gosh, that was. I had a great childhood. You know, there's so many things we had you had that I wish our kids had now. Things they're missing.

[11:02] JEFFREYREY FISHER: So I'll ask a question. It says, what do you believe has influenced your personal political beliefs the most, like a person, an event, religion, etcetera?

[11:17] DEANA GRAHAM: I think probably my parents, they were both really involved or sort of outspoken with us about civil rights things. So I'm a little ahead of you. So I think in Georgia, I was the first class to go all the way from kindergarten through graduation. I never knew anything about it. I mean, you know, it's just great to me. I didn't know anything about it. No, no. I didn't see hardships that it wasn't a strange thing. It was. But my parents never told us what to be or what to believe, but they kind of just shared a lot with us. We got to watch them. They always took us with them to vote. I don't even remember discussions about who they were voting for as much as the fact that they were voting. So I think just the way they lived. Sort of not an event, but just the way they lived. My dad was a therapist, and my mom was an english teacher. Both people, people. And, yeah, I think I just watch them, listen to them, and I feel like I've sort of wound up about where they were, but not because they said, you need to do this. I'm sure I would have felt the other way if they said that. How about you?

[13:06] JEFFREYREY FISHER: I think it's pretty similar. You know, my parents were not real overt about it. I mean, if I asked them, they would. They would tell me who they had voted for, but it was kind of unspoken, like, you know, don't go. Don't talk about that to other people, which is what I tell my own kids when they asked me. Yeah, it just, it wasn't something that was talked about at the dinner table or, I do remember going to vote with them a few times. Felt like the machine seemed a little simpler to use. Yeah, I, that's, that's probably, you know, my age coming out some, but my grandmother had some brothers who were much more vocal about it and that, that got a little old. Just kind of, you just kind of sign, like, well, you know, here they go again. Which I could have cared less what they felt. It's just like, you know, let's, let's talk about something important like the Falcons or something.

[14:12] DEANA GRAHAM: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[14:13] JEFFREYREY FISHER: You know, but it was funny. I do remember show family ties, Alex, Pete Keaton, you know, kind of playing that business yuppie. And I, for whatever reason, as a little kid, I thought that was cool. But, you know, I think that was more, he was playing more businessman than a politician, looking back on it, so. But, no, it's just a real similar situation. It was talked about, but it wasn't just out front.

[14:41] DEANA GRAHAM: Yeah, well, it was talked about. I remember, like, when my parents had dinner parties and stuff, it was talked about. And what I wish, what I think about now that I wish we had is that so many times I can remember going to bed and hearing them talking about it with friends and people disagreeing, but it was so just no problem. It was just like, oh, you're voting for them? I'm voting for them. Why are you voting for them? Well, because of this. I mean, like, it didn't get. It wasn't this hate filled stuff that happens on both sides with so many people. It's. I mean, I have one of, I have three children, and one of my children, who's a young adult, is kind of scared of the whole thing. She makes her anxious. She's constantly afraid to say what she thinks because people get so. And it's too bad because we used to be able to talk about it. It'd be like, oh, you're voting for Nixon. We're voting for Kennedy, or whatever it was. I mean, it was more like a, you go to that church? We go to this church, kind of is the way I remember it. Not so much tension, and there was just room for everybody. And now it just seems like you have to just come down on one side and that's it. And you don't talk to the people on the other side. Of course, I have lots of friends on both sides. I'm a pretty active Democrat. I have lots of friends who are Republicans, and I only have a few friends who vote differently than me that we can really have great conversations where we can both say, like, I get, like, y'all. Y'all got that figured out, you know, and they can say the same, but what about this? And, like, I hate that. That's so rare. But it is rare as I see it. So anyway, that makes me sad. So I felt like this kind of thing was just. Whether we were talking about politics or not, just. Just people getting to know each other.

[16:52] JEFFREYREY FISHER: Yeah.

[16:53] DEANA GRAHAM: You know, just being kind. Just because we're all people.

[16:57] JEFFREYREY FISHER: Yeah. Yeah. I just. I remember people used to say, you know, we'll just have to agree to disagree on something, and we just kind of laugh and again start talking about serious stuff, like, you know, what was for dinner.

[17:09] DEANA GRAHAM: Yeah, yeah.

[17:10] JEFFREYREY FISHER: Movie we saw or something, and. But I just. I feel like as a. When I was a teenager in the nineties, that's when I kind of saw stuff getting a little more. A little more intense with it, a little more vitriol. And I just don't ever. I just don't ever really talk about it with people anymore, Kenny. Just don't know how people are going to react or I just think about, you know, is it worth losing a friendship and you. Yeah, I don't know that it is, honestly. I just. Yeah, I just. I would hate it if that situation ever happened. I don't. I hope and pray it never does, but.

[17:53] DEANA GRAHAM: Yeah, and you're right. You don't know people on both sides. Some people will just surprise you, just lash out about something and you just kind of, you know, even if they're on your. Even if they vote like you, people just get so angry about it that it's. But, you know, if you watch the news, they're all getting angry and they're all telling us what they think. And I miss Walter Cronkite just telling us what was happening, you know?

[18:24] JEFFREYREY FISHER: Well, and that kind of, I guess, is the lead in our next question is have political discussion or arguments strained any of your relationships with your friends, family or coworkers?

[18:38] DEANA GRAHAM: Um, I think probably the thought of them has strained it. Sort of, like you said, like, I just don't want to talk about things because I. Yeah, you don't know how people will be, and you certainly don't want to lose a friend over it. I think that's where I wish it could just be more like it, like it used to be. How about you? Have you had to be in any.

[19:11] JEFFREYREY FISHER: No. You know, a workplace, it's never, never discussed, and I'm very grateful for that. Just, you know, when I'm around friends, it's rarely discussed. I'm not going to bring up, you know, sometimes I'll hear people say things and maybe kind of mentally inside sigh a little bit or think, well, I don't know about that. But again, it's just not worse.

[19:41] DEANA GRAHAM: Yeah, I get you.

[19:43] JEFFREYREY FISHER: It's not worse. Arguing over.

[19:45] DEANA GRAHAM: Yeah, I agree. We missed. What does patriotism mean to you?

[19:51] JEFFREYREY FISHER: Oh, okay.

[19:53] DEANA GRAHAM: I just noticed that.

[19:59] JEFFREYREY FISHER: I mean, you know, I guess I think one thing is just being civic minded and being respectful when you need to be respectful. I think there's a lot of ways to display that. I mean, we have people who serve in the armed forces, which is something I've never done. But again, I think part of it, too, is, you know, being a productive member of society, treating other people the way they want to be treated, just kind of getting up and making a positive impact in the world every day. And that doesn't mean you have to save the world, as the phrase goes. But just being a good, good, honest person, I think, is a lot of it. Yeah. I think it's just, you know, I think it's having just respect for the norms and institutions of society, respect for your neighbor, helping your neighbor. I think that's a lot of it for me. Yeah.

[20:59] DEANA GRAHAM: I actually completely agree with you. I don't think it's as much, whether you want to display your flag or not, like, that's great, or it's okay if you don't want to. I think it's about boating and just. Yeah. Being kind, being listening to other people. What you said was, I'm not saying it. It's not coming out exactly right, but you said exactly what I think. I think it's a lot about how you treat people. I think the people that founded our nation sort of had that in mind. So I feel like we're patriotic when we're doing that.

[21:41] JEFFREYREY FISHER: Yeah.

[21:47] DEANA GRAHAM: You want me to read the next one, or you want to read it?

[21:50] JEFFREYREY FISHER: Sure, that's fine. Yeah.

[21:52] DEANA GRAHAM: Do you ever feel troubled by the people with the same beliefs as you, like, the people from your own side of the aisle and how they communicate those beliefs to others.

[22:03] JEFFREYREY FISHER: You know, anymore? I don't know that I care too much for the phrase my side of the aisle. You know, I see things both sides do. I will say, you know, my views have kind of changed over time, especially over the last decade in a lot of ways. But I think sometimes people are a little, it's interesting when, when you think you're in a like minded crowd and we've all been guilty of this, you might offer an opinion a little too quickly, only to realize, hey, there's some people in this group that don't necessarily agree with that. So it's like, you know, hey, let's, it's almost all thing. If somebody's not in the room, let's not say something. You know, if they're not here, avoid saying something bad about somebody. And it's, it's almost kind of that way. It's like, yeah, I mean, you may see some things that are kind of crazy or whatever, but I think, you know, just matter. Of course, demonizing a group of people is just not healthy either.

[23:10] DEANA GRAHAM: No, putting them in a group is not healthy, I would say my main problem with that is my stepmother, who I adore, but she is bound and determined to get her beliefs out there. And, I mean, she will ram them in your head, and it's just like, oh, you know, what's for lunch? Let's just, and we feel the same way. But I'm just thinking you're not bringing anybody. Nope. Nobody's changing their mind because they read a Facebook post on either side. I mean, you know, it's just like, so I think that's like you. That's when people just assume they know what someone thinks or assume that everybody in a group feels the same is kind of a dangerous situation.

[24:07] JEFFREYREY FISHER: Yeah. Yeah. It's, I think, and this is an overused word to echo chamber. You know, it's almost like you have to get out of that sometimes and just kind of see what other folks are thinking. I'll read the next question. Are there any issues that motivate you to engage what is extremely important to you? Why? How did you come to these beliefs?

[24:38] DEANA GRAHAM: Whoo. Let's see. I think I'm much more concerned with how we treat each other than, as you said, like, the sides of the aisles. I'm sort of sick of every, I feel like until we all meet in the middle, we're just, we're going to do nothing. I mean, either. Both polls or if we stay there, we're not doing anything. So I guess one issue for me is just that, that we start to try to figure out how can we not be. So my thing is right and your thing is wrong. That's important to me. And I think, I think my parents kind of instilled that in me, they sort of encouraged us to read and try to think about what we felt, stuff like that. I don't know that I have. I mean, I think the things that are important to me are that there's a we keep the world okay and keep it okay for our future great grandchildren, and that we don't blow each other up for nothing. I mean, you know, where's that going to get us? But I don't really. I don't have, like, a thing that I, you know, I'm always thinking about or going for. How about you?

[26:27] JEFFREYREY FISHER: Yeah, I would agree. And I don't have just one issue that just, you know, drives me to. To become involved with some type of movement or group or etcetera. You know, sometimes I'll see or hear things and be like, okay, yeah, I'm definitely going to think about that when I engage at the ballot box. But again, I think that's your most effective form of participation. I mean, I think one thing. I've grown concerned about it, and I do agree with you. Environmental stuff seems to be kind of moving more and more to the forefront of things. You know, I feel like in some way, somehow, we've lost this, what I'll call common culture in this country. It just, like, when I was real little, you know, it seemed like everybody watched the last episode of MAsh, and everybody watched and just those kind of things. And then, you know, cable and certain other things came along, and your interests became more and more specialized. So, like, when you talk at work, hey, did you ever watch that show? And most people gonna say, I've never heard of that.

[27:41] DEANA GRAHAM: Right?

[27:42] JEFFREYREY FISHER: Because there's just so much that we can just kind of. And it becomes almost. I can be as guilty of this as anybody. Instead of spending time with people or even your family, you start to just retreat into your interests and hobbies and media and so forth, and that's probably not good. So I think trying to find some way to pull ourselves out of that, but I don't even know that I'd consider that a political issue, but just something that kind of seems to be concerned me a little bit.

[28:20] DEANA GRAHAM: Yeah, it's funny that you say that, because I was talking with one of my kids the other day, and I was saying, I can't really explain this to you, but it was really fun when this didn't sound fun to them, but I said it was really fun when we all watched Carol Burnett, and the next day, everybody was talking about it or whatever it was, mash, whatever it was, because we had all those things we shared, those cultural things we shared. And now every night everybody's got a different thing. So there's no. I don't know. I missed that. But that's funny that I was just talking to one of my kids about that. I think. Well, we're up to date. Let me ask you. Oh, can I ask you what church you go to? I'm just curious.

[29:16] JEFFREYREY FISHER: Yeah. We attend St. Aiden's and Milton.

[29:19] DEANA GRAHAM: Yeah. Okay.

[29:20] JEFFREYREY FISHER: Yeah.

[29:21] DEANA GRAHAM: My husband's an episcopal priest, so that's why.

[29:23] JEFFREYREY FISHER: Okay. Okay.

[29:25] DEANA GRAHAM: Brought us here.

[29:26] JEFFREYREY FISHER: And you said Trinity and Columbus, is that right?

[29:31] DEANA GRAHAM: There's two big episcopal. Big. Not huge, but big episcopal churches here. So we're at the one that's downtown. It's neat. But the episcopal church is kind of a small group, you know? So. Yeah, my husband would definitely. If I told him the person I talked to was an Episcopalian and I didn't find out where he went to church, he'd be like, what?

[29:59] JEFFREYREY FISHER: Yeah, that's it. Yeah.

[30:02] DEANA GRAHAM: Who is the priest there?

[30:07] JEFFREYREY FISHER: It's so funny. I'm so used to calling him Father Reggie. I've forgotten his last name.

[30:13] DEANA GRAHAM: I get it.

[30:14] JEFFREYREY FISHER: If you take a look at our.

[30:15] DEANA GRAHAM: Website, it's all, I'm just curious. That's funny. Was there anything that you were hoping got discussed in today's conversation that we didn't discuss? I guess.

[30:37] JEFFREYREY FISHER: I wouldn't say so. I mean, I'm kind of glad we didn't get into, like, specific issues or something. I don't think that was really the purpose of today, at least as far as I was concerned. I think it is nice that, you know, here we are, total strangers, and we've just been able to have a real civil, you know, conversation. I think the challenge is it's when you bump into somebody, like, out on the street or at this store or something, and it's, are we able to do that same thing? Especially when there's that potential for agitation, like you bump into somebody or. Yeah, you know, Atlanta area is not known for its polite driving, so there's a lot of. Yeah, aggression with. With the way people drive anymore. But it's, you know, sometimes that's tough to handle. But I don't know. I feel like for the most part, when people are sitting across from each other on a one on one basis, things tend to, you know, for the most part, go pretty smoothly.

[31:34] DEANA GRAHAM: Yeah, I definitely agree. There's always more that that is similar about us than different. And unfortunately now, so much of the time, our heads buried in a phone. So we may have the potential to have a conversation and we miss it. My head's buried in the phone. The other person's head's buried in the phone. I mean, I'm just as guilty as, you know, you're waiting in a line. You just immediately, or I do. And sometimes I think, you know, I'm missing getting to know whoever's behind me, in front of me. But, yeah, I agree. I think when two people sit down, it usually works out. I guess we need to do more of this.

[32:22] JEFFREYREY FISHER: Yeah, that's it.

[32:25] DEANA GRAHAM: Um, who's been the most influential person in your life, and what did they teach you?

[32:34] JEFFREYREY FISHER: Uh, yeah, I mentioned my bio. You know, I think my, uh, I think my maternal grandmother had a big effect on, on me. Uh, and I think one thing she taught me was, uh, I think, kind of a patience with life. I know when I taught middle school for about seven years and again in the small town I grew up in, so everything's about ten minutes away from everything else. And I'd come home after, you know, get out of school at 03:00 be over her house by maybe ten after, and she'd already have dinner ready, you know, and sometimes I'd kind of say, you won't believe what were when them kids did day. And. Or you'd talk about stuff in the newspaper. You know, she still got the newspaper. And she just kind of say, yeah, but you just got to remember there's just more people than there's ever been, so you're going to hear about stuff more than you, you know, you used to. And I think it's just kind of, you know, reminding, like, things have always kind of been challenging in a lot of ways and just kind of taking it as it comes. I mean, faces are new, but the problems aren't. And, you know, just kind of like, well, we just deal with it. And in the meantime, we got to mow the yard and we got to, you know, pull the weeds and we got to go grocery shopping and clean the house and do all that stuff. So there's no need kind of putting our head in the sand and just rolling over. Yeah.

[34:02] DEANA GRAHAM: Yeah. Getting upset about one thing, that's neat. A patience with life. That's, that's a good gift. I'm trying to think. I think all of my grandparents were influential. I think my parents. I just think I had a really amazing mom, and I have a really amazing father, and they talked a lot to us and also listened a lot to us. I can't think of just one nugget. But I feel like I kind of try, when I think about it, to sort of live like they live and lived, touch people when you can in the right ways and realize that you don't ever really know what somebody's dealing with. You don't ever know, even sometimes your best friends are. So I try to try to live like that. I think I got that from my parents and I'm.

[35:15] JEFFREYREY FISHER: Yeah, that's, you know, I liked how you said you felt like they listened to you. I think listening is such a valuable, that's something I really work on is listening, uh, not just hearing somebody talking and getting thinking about what you're going to say, but really trying to listen to them and.

[35:35] DEANA GRAHAM: Yeah, it's hard to listen for what they're saying instead of listening for what you're going to say. Yeah, um, and I'm guilty. Uh, you know, sometimes you just get in a hurry, you're ready to tell your point and move on, and then you think, wait a minute, I don't even really know what they're saying, you know, so. But my folks did listen. So you want to take the next one?

[36:04] JEFFREYREY FISHER: Yeah, I'll ask that one. Is there a historic event that occurred in your lifetime that impacted you and how so?

[36:16] DEANA GRAHAM: Well, I don't know if they really meand an event that we all know about, you know, certainly 911 times like that. But I think for me, in my history, my mom's death was sort of like my life before, my life after. And, you know, it's hard and it's, you know, she never knew my husband or my children. But there are also things that happen because of that that are good. There are ways that I live that I probably wouldn't have thought to live if I didn't realize how, how tenuous life. I mean, how it's how uncertain things are. But I'd say that's the biggest thing in my life.

[37:10] JEFFREYREY FISHER: Yeah, I think if we're talking about some kind of big common event, yeah, I would have to say September 11, I think just really affected all of us. And I think it's still affecting us and just a lot of ways and it's tough because, you know, my kids are getting an age. It's probably a little easier to talk to them about that sort of thing, but they've grown up without that impact. And it's like, how do you, I guess my grandparents generation, it was, you know, how do you convert, convey what Pearl harbor, what that initiated in terms of the war and everybody going off to serve and et cetera. And how do you convey that to somebody who just wasn't around?

[37:57] DEANA GRAHAM: You know, it's hard to try to explain that. We can't really explain to our kids about watching tv and watching a plane flying to the second building, literally watching them crumble. You can't have. You can try. And they're, oh, gosh, that's terrible. But, you know, it's not. They're not. It's not in there. How old are your kids?

[38:24] JEFFREYREY FISHER: So third grade and fifth grade.

[38:29] DEANA GRAHAM: Oh, cool.

[38:30] JEFFREYREY FISHER: So eight and ten. Yeah. I mean, I hope to take them up to Shanksville, Pennsylvania, one day to the memorial they've put up there. I've been up there, but that was before they had built the permanent memorial. It was more of a temporary thing back then. But, yeah, I hope the opportunity arises to take them up there one day and even go out to Oklahoma City, too. I've been out there and seen that. But, yeah, I think in some ways, it was a lost opportunity for us as a way to maybe try to come together a little more. I think that happened for about, you know, two, three days, and then we were already back. And again, I'll just point my example at myself. You're already back to you kind of worried about, you know, this and that and the busyness of life and a lot of stuff at the end of day just doesn't really, it doesn't really matter, but we get worked up about it, you know, air conditioning goes out or the Internet goes down or just awful. Just. Just silly stuff at the end of the day. Hill of beans, as they say. So, yeah, you're right.

[39:38] DEANA GRAHAM: I mean, those days after we, we were all together.

[39:42] JEFFREYREY FISHER: Yeah.

[39:44] DEANA GRAHAM: And it's terrible that it took that and then that it went away. Yeah, I guess we know we can do it. But anyway, what are your hopes for the future, both personally and politically?

[40:09] JEFFREYREY FISHER: I think, you know, hopes for the future. You hope that you're contributing in a way that when it's time to hand it off to the next set of people. And I think that handoff a lot of time occurs during your life, you know. Uh, but I think just trying to leave it better than what you found it, hopefully. Uh, and that can be on a big scale as well as a little scale. Uh, I kind of hope the. The shouting and the, the arguing, you know, dies down. I think the worm is slowly turning on that and that a lot. I just hear more and more people say they're just, just getting sick of it. Uh, just, it's like I don't need to yell at somebody to make my mind up about how I'm going to vote or this or that, and it's just such a turn off. But I do. I do have hope that we're. We're coming out of whatever little phase we're in. Everything's cyclical.

[41:11] DEANA GRAHAM: Yeah, but you're right. I mean, I hear more people saying, this is crazy. Why are we. Why are we yelling at each other about this? I think personally, for the future, I'd like to stay healthy and live to see grandchildren and enjoy my life, keep enjoying it. And politically, I'd like the same thing. Whatever we're going to do, I'd like us to just chill out and just, you know, listen to each other and, yeah, just stop the screaming matches and, yeah, I mean, show our kids a better. A better world. Show them what we could do. I hope we'll be able to do that.

[42:06] JEFFREYREY FISHER: Yeah.

[42:10] DEANA GRAHAM: Well, what is something you'll take from this experience?

[42:17] JEFFREYREY FISHER: I think it's just been nice to talk to, I guess, just somebody you might never have met in the course of your life and just hear kind of what some of their hopes and fears and struggles are and just kind of hear about your background again. I feel like we found more in common than we have differences, definitely. So, way more in common. So that's been nice.

[42:48] DEANA GRAHAM: Yeah, I agree. And I think we do have a lot in common, but I'm thinking with us sitting here talking, that probably even people that don't have a lot in common would be decent to each other if they just sat alone and talked, not with their big group or not with whoever they're siding with or whatever. But just. So I'm going to try, I think, after this conversation, to look for times when I can talk to people that I don't know and just kind of not for a reason, just as one little way to close all these gaps, I think.

[43:34] JEFFREYREY FISHER: Yeah, well, I think we can wrap up our time together, but it's been. It's been really exciting talking to you. I think, you know, just the odds of two Episcopalians coming together, that's. That's just, you know, so, yeah, it's been a real pleasure.

[43:52] DEANA GRAHAM: Yeah, it's been a pleasure for me, too. Thank you so much.

[43:56] JEFFREYREY FISHER: Thank you. Yeah.