Jessica Woolbright and Michelle Rhode

[00:05] JESSICA WOOLBRIGHT: My name is Jessica Woolbright. I am 47 years old. Today is October 20. I am in St. Louis, Missouri, and I am here with my co worker and friend.

[00:21] MICHELLE ROWLEY: My name is Michelle Rowley. I am 53. Today is October 20, and I'm also in St. Louis. And my relationship to Jessica is that she is my coworker and my friend. Okay. I know we talk about. Describe the work that you do, but I want to back up a little bit and ask you, this is going to sound like a therapist. What brings you here today?

[00:49] JESSICA WOOLBRIGHT: Oh, it does sound like a therapist. So the work that we do. So we work at St. Martha's, which is a ministry of catholic charities. We work with women and children who have been impacted by domestic violence. So while there's a lot of awareness around domestic violence and resources and services, I don't think there's a lot of awareness around the people who are doing the work on a day to day basis. And not that we're doing it because we need that respect or that praise. It's more about being so proud of the women that I get to work with every day that I want people to know how strong and how fierce and how courageous they are in the work we do every day.

[01:49] MICHELLE ROWLEY: What did you think you were going to be when you grew up?

[01:52] JESSICA WOOLBRIGHT: A social worker. Really? You did? But I. But not in domestic violence. Like, I never thought of domestic violence. So my parents were foster parents for a good part of my life, so we always had babies and social workers in our house. So I loved seeing that connection. I like to joke and say I became a social worker. This was how I rebelled against my father, who was a police officer, that becoming a social worker was his worst nightmare, but not really. So went to school to become a social worker. Did my very first practicum in the prosecuting attorney's office here in St. Louis county. Over 90% of my cases were working with women who were in violent relationships, and I never looked back. What about you? Did you always know you were going to be a social worker?

[02:51] MICHELLE ROWLEY: I always knew. I always had a burn for social justice. I had a friend who lived down the street when I lived in Texas. I was like, six or eight years old, and she had a t shirt that said, kids are people, too. And I loved that t shirt. Right? Because I was like, yes. And then when I went to undergraduate, people would say, what are you going to do with this sociology psych degree?

[03:16] JESSICA WOOLBRIGHT: Right?

[03:17] MICHELLE ROWLEY: And I would say, I want to help the homeless. Fast forward. I graduated, and I didn't have a job. Didn't know what I was going to do, so I started volunteering at battered women's shelter. And that was it. That was it. Like, it was in me. I was bit by the, you know, I was. That was it. And so I went back to graduate school so I could do that. And then I found St. Barthos. Just by happenstance. Just by happenstance.

[03:43] JESSICA WOOLBRIGHT: Me, too.

[03:44] MICHELLE ROWLEY: And my first interview was with Michelle. So tell me who Michelle is. Not me. Michelle, the other.

[03:53] JESSICA WOOLBRIGHT: So there's two michelles. So Michelle Schiller Baker is the founder and long term, long time director of St. Martha's who had the wisdom that none of us, we always knew she had the wisdom, but she used it and was smart enough to retire in December of 2019 right before a global pandemic. But Michelle, and I like to say that in all the ways that matter, we were raised by Michelle Schiller Baker. So we are still in, still talk to her all the time. She's still very much the part of what we do. But she was here for 40 years, and St. Martha's as an institution. But the advocates who learned from and with Michelle Schiller Baker are like no other. I mean, it is, when you talk about somebody who just had it in their blood, she nurtured the fire and that fire in the belly that we already had in ways that made us so proud to do the work that we do. She's a friend, she's a mentor. She's a mom. I remember when my daughter was eight years old asking me, mom, remind me, how are we related to Michelle again? And I said, in all the ways that matter. But you, I know you.

[05:33] MICHELLE ROWLEY: I feel the exact same way. I feel the exact same way. So when, so we've been working together for 20 plus years, and our roles have changed, our locations have changed, and our relationship has changed. So do you remember, well, I guess. Do you remember the first time you met me? And then also, because I want to share this with you, is there a moment when you were like, hey, I think this might work for the two of us?

[06:16] JESSICA WOOLBRIGHT: So I was, I was telling you this. I was telling Michelle this morning. So Michelle started at St. Martha's before I did, but then she met a boy, and she had to move to Kansas City for a year or two. So I didn't meet her until she came back the second time. So we had a position open, and everybody was talking about interviewing Michelle or interview Michelle. Michelle Rowley is going to get the job. And I didn't like her because I kept hearing so much about her. Oh, Michelle. He's so great. Michelle's so great. And I was like, nobody can be this great. I'm so over it. Right? And then I met her, and I was like, ah, shoot. I get it. Like, it's really great. So the first time I met her was in the interview, and, of course, knew she was fabulous. We've been through so much together, personally, professionally. Like, there is no boundary. I don't. I don't remember a time not trusting you, so I don't remember the first time, but I. Because I feel like it's just always been there.

[07:26] MICHELLE ROWLEY: It had to be tested. You have to earn trust.

[07:28] JESSICA WOOLBRIGHT: Right?

[07:28] MICHELLE ROWLEY: Right.

[07:29] JESSICA WOOLBRIGHT: Absolutely. I remember.

[07:32] MICHELLE ROWLEY: And I'm not challenging.

[07:33] JESSICA WOOLBRIGHT: I'm not.

[07:34] MICHELLE ROWLEY: Like, it just. It makes me think.

[07:36] JESSICA WOOLBRIGHT: I think, for me, that trust just built. It wasn't one thing. I remember you were the second person at work that I told when I was pregnant with my son, who's now 19 years old.

[07:50] MICHELLE ROWLEY: I do want to stop there because that is the moment where it changed for me. So I'll back up so that we can talk a little bit about what works. St. Martha's does specifically.

[08:04] JESSICA WOOLBRIGHT: Right.

[08:06] MICHELLE ROWLEY: St. Martha's in a nutshell. We do domestic violence advocacy. We advocate for women who are experiencing intimate partner violence. So we do that a couple of many ways, through offering shelter, through offering a drop in center support and services, and through community education. But we are so much larger than the sum of our parts. Right. Something about St. Martha's is that not only are we here 24/7 for the women who live here and for the women we serve, but we're here twenty four seven first staff as well, and for each other. So, I mean, I don't know if that's. Yeah, right. I don't know if that's enough about what you need to know for St. Martha's, but that's what we do in a nutshell. And I. The moment I remember when you walked into my office to tell me you were pregnant with Luke, and I had just started, I was new. And the fact that you came to me and said, I'm telling you first, I was in a leadership role. I had no idea what I was doing. But to see that kind of model of respect given to me and that you thought about it in that way, I was like, this is a woman who thinks through things and wants to do them ethically and correct. And it just filled me with such admiration, respect and gratitude.

[09:52] JESSICA WOOLBRIGHT: I was like, oh, oh, we're partners here.

[09:55] MICHELLE ROWLEY: Like, it really took me like, wow.

[09:58] JESSICA WOOLBRIGHT: You came to me first.

[10:00] MICHELLE ROWLEY: And I was like, well, that makes sense. Yeah, of course.

[10:02] JESSICA WOOLBRIGHT: And yet.

[10:04] MICHELLE ROWLEY: So, anyway, that's the piece where I was like, okay, there. We have potential here.

[10:09] JESSICA WOOLBRIGHT: And that potential is grow. I mean, we've definitely met our potential in that. So, you know, we didn't talk about, like, what was off bound. So you can. You can stop me at any point. But. So that was 19 years ago, almost. My son's now in college. You fast forward a few years. Not too many from that. Michelle literally goes into labor at the shelter for water breaks. Early, early. Very early. Way too early. Ben is fine now. And it was in high school, but it was your first. And we were all very young women at the time. We didn't even know what we didn't know. And I remember you saying, I'll be back. And we're like, her water broke. Like, she's. But you. But we can also see the fear and the panic in your face and what? I don't know. And maybe we told you this and maybe we haven't, but, like, the minute after. Because Michelle Schillermaker drove you to the hospital where your husband was waiting for you. All of us who were working that day just, like, stood around holding hands, crying, thinking of you, like, wanting updates every five minutes. And I remember Michelle wanting to call the hospital, like, every hour. And we were like, Michelle? Like, her Aaron's there. He'll take care of it. We're not family. And the look on Michelle's face when somebody said, we're not family was like, oh, yes, we are. Right. We are absolutely family. So, I mean, we have raised our children together. Again, maybe not the happiest time, but you were the first person I called when I found out I had breast cancer in 2020 in the middle of a pandemic. And you said all of the right things. You were the first person I called when my dad was dying, because I knew you would give me what I needed. Not necessarily what I wanted or what I. But you would give me what I needed in that moment. And, I mean, yes, of course, working together forever is part of that. But I also think that because we work at St. Martha's and because every day we see the resiliency and the courage of women at the worst times of their life, that. That's why I can trust you, because I've seen you do it for other women. And I want to. I want to feel that myself. Right? Nope. Like. And you hear me? Like, it's Michelle and I talking today, but you could go through every 20 staff members that we have here in those same relationships exist. I think, to maybe oversimplify it, it is truly the power of women helping women. It's nothing any more difficult than that.

[13:22] MICHELLE ROWLEY: I only want to be as good as you. You're so good. I did want to ask something else. I don't know.

[13:46] JESSICA WOOLBRIGHT: Ask it. It's fine.

[13:47] MICHELLE ROWLEY: No, well, okay. I was thinking of it when you were talking about breast cancer, because you said, we didn't talk about what was out of bounds. And so I was like, well, is breast cancer out of bounds? I remember when you came to my office and you said, I have a pain in my breast. Do you think I should do anything about it? And I was like, yeah.

[14:06] JESSICA WOOLBRIGHT: Because it was one day, like, it was one day that I had this pain.

[14:10] MICHELLE ROWLEY: Yeah, yeah.

[14:11] JESSICA WOOLBRIGHT: And it might sound silly, like, of course, but this was the height of COVID Nobody was going to the doctor if you didn't have to go to the doctor. Right. So it was sort of like. But it just happened today. Like, should I wait? And you were like, absolutely not. Do not wait. And. And, yeah, I mean, I. Yeah, but. But that's a lot to. To put on you, too. Like, what was your experience in me telling you and having to be there for me? No, that's a not.

[14:48] MICHELLE ROWLEY: You're not putting anything on me by doing that. We're walking together shit. Excuse me. I mean, also, I mean, what? I mean, with my sister's experience, like, I knew what was gonna happen. Yeah. Yeah. I knew what was gonna happen.

[15:18] JESSICA WOOLBRIGHT: I think so. Fast forward. I'm fine. My hair's growing back. I had a double mastectomy. I'm on the right path. So we'll start with that. I think one of the reasons, because I had lots of doctors and nurses not trust my instinct, and when I finally got to the right person, it was fine, right? Like, doctor Hoffman was fabulous. She knew from the very be, like, didn't know it was cancer, but trusted my instinct. But I had multiple men in the medical field tell me, oh, it's nothing. Just wait till your next mammogram. But what didn't make sense for me in that was it didn't show up on a mammogram. So why would I wait for the next mammogram? But because for the last 25 years, what I have been taught and what I have tried to share with other women is trust your instincts. Right? That is a Michelle Schiller Baker 101. Trust your instincts. And I did. And I can't say that I knew for sure it was cancer. I mean, I was still shocked to hear that. But something told me to keep moving forward, right? To still take that next step. So I very much believe that if I didn't have the strong women you, your sister, who personally, I still have never met, face to face supporting me, you know, what I learned to tell people is it's a. Having breast cancer is a really terrible team to get recruited to. To get drafted to, but there's some amazing players on the team. So I was used to leaning on women. I was used to getting support from women, and it made that whole journey and that whole process that much easier. I can remember coming every time I would come home from chemo, there would be something on my porch from somebody at St. Martha. So the first gift I got was my Joe Biden aviator sunglasses to wear during chemo. One time I came back, and Diana had left this beautiful, like, nail polish kit. And my husband looked at me and said, how does St. Martha's always know exactly what you need? And I said, they just know. Like, they just know. And I think it's just. It's always been like that. We laugh here about the magic of St. Martha's because it's things that we can't explain in any other way. But there is a magic that is here.

[17:53] MICHELLE ROWLEY: Absolutely. But, gosh, I don't know. Sometimes I think. Sometimes I wonder, like, I don't believe in magic. Right. So what makes that magic? It's got to be something concrete. It's gotta be. I don't know.

[18:17] JESSICA WOOLBRIGHT: I think it's all of the above. I think it's all of the above. I think it's all of the above. Like, when I think of who we have had the honor of working with and for sometimes working against. Right. Like, we can be fierce. We. We always try and do it in very smart, strategic ways, but we are absolutely forces to be reckoned with. Um, we don't have a weak link at St. Martha's. We just don't like. Because if we see a vulnerability, everybody else sort of circles around it to make it that much stronger. Right? So I think of this time, my daughter was 18 months old and broke her leg. First of many broken bones for that one. But I didn't know what that meant. Like, I thought, gosh, like, she's really little. She broke her leg. Is she gonna struggle for the rest of her life? Like, is there just gonna. Is it gonna have a long term effect? And the doctor said, no, actually, that part of her bone will grow back even stronger. Like, that's just how kids bodies work. So that would be the strongest part, her leg. And that has stuck with me, because the minute this doctor said that, I thought, like, that's. That's kind of how my heart feels doing this work. Like, my. We have had terrible tragedies. We have had to bury women and children that we have known and worked with because they were killed with the hands of their father, their partner. And your heart breaks. I mean, there's still a tombstone that I go to every November for a child that have died. And your heart breaks. And your heart breaks seeing the mom go through that. But your heart, the scar never goes away, but it just grows back a little bit stronger because there are still kids that need us, and there are still women that need us every day. You know, we're doing this recording from a little office in the shelter, and I can hear the women and kids. This is real. It is. This is as real as it gets.

[20:40] MICHELLE ROWLEY: How do you do it every day? Like, what. There's gonna. What. What do you draw on? Especially when things are changing and hard here and you don't get to see the women every day now in your new role, how, like, what do you draw on? What drives you?

[20:58] JESSICA WOOLBRIGHT: I could. I could not even think about doing this work without the coworkers that I have. And I say that for people that I worked with for 23 years and people that I worked with for five years. I mean, at St. Martha's, we still consider five years new because we don't have that much turnover. Everybody brings something different to the table. Yeah. I don't know.

[21:34] MICHELLE ROWLEY: Do you ever feel like getting up every day?

[21:39] JESSICA WOOLBRIGHT: I do. I mean, if being honest. But it never lasts for more than a split second, right? Like, every day. I think I could go be a social worker at a school, have my. At least part of my summers off. Not to say that school social workers.

[21:58] MICHELLE ROWLEY: Have it easy, right?

[22:00] JESSICA WOOLBRIGHT: Like, walk out the door. You know, I could find something that I am not as passionate about as I am, but I can't separate anymore. Jessica and St. Martha's. It's part of who I am. Of course it's frustrating. Of course it's challenging. And I have never doubted for a second that we are absolutely doing what we're supposed to be doing. And then you have those moments where you see it work. You get a guilty verdict in a trial, or you see a child get the services that they need, or you see a woman just come back into shelter, maybe for the second or third time, but you see something a little bit different this time. There's a confidence there. And I know we've talked about it before, but it really is the staff. Like, when I'm having one of those days, and somehow there are 23 years, you and I have never been in the same place at the same time. Right. So those days where I'm like, I'm done, you remind me. Right? I mean, the pandemic was a perfect example of this. So we were fighting two fronts. We were still fighting domestic violence, and now we were fighting a global pandemic where we could not serve women the way we knew we needed to serve. I mean, you and I were probably in contact 12 hours a day figuring it out as we went.

[23:30] MICHELLE ROWLEY: That is another place where I don't know what it. Something happened, and it turned for me because it literally, Jessica, it was you and me, because we didn't have all of the different staff we have now. We didn't have a. We didn't have development. We didn't have great. A women's program director.

[23:51] JESSICA WOOLBRIGHT: Great.

[23:52] MICHELLE ROWLEY: The two left standing was you and me.

[23:56] JESSICA WOOLBRIGHT: And what we realized fairly early on, I think you're the one that said it. Michelle had just retired.

[24:01] MICHELLE ROWLEY: Yes.

[24:02] JESSICA WOOLBRIGHT: So we were already sort of finding our footing of what St. Martha's looks like.

[24:06] MICHELLE ROWLEY: I heard of a woman 30 years in that role, and now she's gone.

[24:11] JESSICA WOOLBRIGHT: And you said it. We do. You hit the nail on the head one day. You said, we are a tricycle that has lost its wheel. Like we lost a wheel. So it was. It was not just me being in a new role or just you being in a new role. It was two of us trying to. How to figure out how to fill a really big hole. Yeah, a really big hole.

[24:31] MICHELLE ROWLEY: Yes.

[24:33] JESSICA WOOLBRIGHT: But we did.

[24:34] MICHELLE ROWLEY: I think we did.

[24:37] JESSICA WOOLBRIGHT: We did. I mean, I think back to some of the things we had to do during COVID just to stay open. I mean, the amount of. I remember going in and I was on my cell phone talking to you in target and saying, and this was probably like February of 2020, and saying, oh, gosh, you are going to be so proud of me. Don't worry. I just. I just picked up ten bottles of hand soap and hand sanitizer. We're good, right? And it was like, two weeks later, like, full shutdown, had to reduce capacity at the shelter. Putting women in hotels, lay off stuff.

[25:13] MICHELLE ROWLEY: We never had to.

[25:14] JESSICA WOOLBRIGHT: Never had to lay off staff.

[25:15] MICHELLE ROWLEY: But, like, restructure how we staff.

[25:18] JESSICA WOOLBRIGHT: We are a. We are a people job. Remote work and social distancing and all of those things do not work. And what we realized pretty quickly is that we were the biggest threat to the people we were trying to serve because we were the ones going home to family. The residents weren't even able to leave shelter, so we were constantly trying to figure out the best way to do that. And, you know, early on, we realized one of the only options we had when a new woman came into shelter. And it gives me chills to think about it, but she had to quarantine in a room by herself for two weeks. And for a woman who has already been so isolated and so emotionally abused, to not even be able to have face to face contact, but knock on wood, we never had Covid in our shelter, like, staff got it, but we net, like, if it would have broke out in a shelter, I don't even know what we would have done. Residents, staff, like, and we never had to deal with that. And that was a huge win, right.

[26:33] MICHELLE ROWLEY: Which is unlike most infections and illnesses, we all get it, right? Yeah.

[26:42] JESSICA WOOLBRIGHT: So we keep talking about Michelle and there's other women, right, who have, who have been very instrumental in our upbringing, but whether you and I like to admit it or not, we're becoming those people for younger staff, right. That's a lot of responsibility. How do you, how do you balance that? How do you do that?

[27:10] MICHELLE ROWLEY: I don't think about that. No, I stay present. I stay present. And, you know, I did, I did that when I was just started as an advocate. You know, in 8 hours a day, when you're literally bearing witness to trauma, like looking in the eyes of trauma, that's really. That can take a toll on your soul. Right. We know, we see the new advocates and we're like, I don't know if she's got it, you know? So I would drive home and I quickly realized, you got to get a grip on this, michelle, or you're not going to be able to sustain this. And I compartmentalize and I leave work. I do what I can. It's not always possible now to just know I gave those 8 hours, I gave the best I could in those 8 hours. Like, I'm all in, in eight. But then, like, when I've gone, I gotta, I gotta and stay present with my family, right? And stay present with myself. So I stay present because if I start thinking about all of the significant impact and the fears we have about what could happen, I get lost. Yeah, I'd get lost in it. I stay present and I think it's.

[28:32] JESSICA WOOLBRIGHT: Yeah, so we try and role model that. I have joked before that there's days that I feel like I'm doing okay job as an advocate, and there's days that I feel like I'm doing an okay job as a mom, and there's days that I feel like I'm doing okay days as a daughter and a wife. But none of those things ever happen all on the same day. They never happen all on the same day. And that's okay. Right? So when we have younger staff, people start letting them see us be very human. And I think we've even said before, like, please don't put us on this pedestal. Like, we understand there's a responsibility to sort of bring along that younger generation, but we're human, and we are going to make mistakes. I want my daughter to learn that. I want my son to learn that. Like, it's okay. It's okay. But I also think it's really great for them to see a mom who works just as hard and who has a job that is just as important, because we're really trying to move the needle. We're really trying to make a difference.

[29:51] MICHELLE ROWLEY: I was on the fifth floor when a whole cluster mess happened with the woman who reached out via our website. And Layla, a newer advocate, was there, and she saw me. You know, I told you that one is my button. A woman who reaches out and we can't, or we don't, she feels maybe neglected or abandoned.

[30:27] JESSICA WOOLBRIGHT: Right. Because, you know, when women are looking for services, obviously in 2023, one of the first places they're gonna look to find help is the Internet. Right? So they find our website and they send an email. And for those of us who've been doing this work for a really long time and don't even. We know that we don't know enough about technology to know how to safely reach out to her. And we don't ever want a woman to feel like we've abandoned her or neglected her or ignored her. And everything, every decision we make, every day is about minimizing the risk. So the minute we don't reply to an email, it's not because we're ignoring. It's because we don't know who's on the other end of that email.

[31:16] MICHELLE ROWLEY: And we were right this time.

[31:17] JESSICA WOOLBRIGHT: And we were right this time. And I know you sort of had this knee jerk reaction, like, I'm sorry, I'm never going to be okay with that technology. And I remember saying to you, stop apologizing for your experience. Right. Technology is a blessing and a curse. But we have learned a few things in our combined 50 years. We have learned a few things. And everything in our gut, in our instinct knew that that was going to be a potentially bad situation. Could have been worse, but it could have been better. So to see a younger advocate not just push back. Right. Not just be like, no, it's 2023. We have to use technology. We can do it safely, was like, no, you're right. Like, you're absolutely right. And that's what gives me hope. What would you, what would you say to yourself, like, if you could go back ten or even 20 years ago, what advice would you give yourself 20 years ago? I don't know.

[32:27] MICHELLE ROWLEY: Be gentle with yourself. Don't regret. I don't know. What about you? That's a good question.

[32:37] JESSICA WOOLBRIGHT: I feel like, yeah, this isn't what I was going to say. I'll come back to that. But I always think that one of our guiding principles at St. Martha's and Michelle introduced us to this years ago is we have to make tough decisions every day and sometimes they're not black and white. Yeah, but what you told me 20 years ago was, listen, could you go on Dateline and defend this decision? 60 minutes. 60 minutes. 60 minutes. If you were to go in 60 minutes and defend this decision to all of America. To all of America. And if you can't, then you need.

[33:15] MICHELLE ROWLEY: To take a second look.

[33:17] JESSICA WOOLBRIGHT: And I use that all the time. Now, is the, is all of America going to understand my reasoning if they haven't always worked in domestic violence? Maybe not, but that's a good, that's a good check for me. Right. Because we do have power in the situations that we're in, and we have to be responsible with that. I think the advice that I would give myself, I like to have grace, don't overthink things. And this might seem a little in conflict with that, but always have a strategy. So when I was younger, I think I probably had a lot more knee jerk reactions to things. And I thought that the best advocacy was sort of that, like bulldog fierce fighting everybody. And I learned very quickly that that might work once. Yeah, right. It might work once, but it's not going to change the game.

[34:17] MICHELLE ROWLEY: Yeah.

[34:17] JESSICA WOOLBRIGHT: It's not going to change the court systems or the laws. Those things are built on relationships, and relationships are so important in doing this work. So reminding myself, never burn a bridge, Colleen Kobel, who is another one who was the executive director of our state coalition for years, used to always say, we do not have enemies. There are just friends we haven't made yet. And that's really powerful. That's another, like, wise woman in my world. And if you listen to those wise women a lot, they're saying the same things. They put their own spin on them that they have unto them.

[34:59] MICHELLE ROWLEY: You're right. We have been guided by a number of wise women. And if only. I don't know, um, maybe we'll. I don't know, maybe we'll be those wise women one day.

[35:14] JESSICA WOOLBRIGHT: I know I hear sooner than later.

[35:16] MICHELLE ROWLEY: Um, this is a really good question. What lessons has this work taught you? Life lessons.

[35:24] JESSICA WOOLBRIGHT: Oh, gosh. Um.

[35:28] MICHELLE ROWLEY: Changes your worldview.

[35:29] JESSICA WOOLBRIGHT: It absolutely changes my worldview. Um, it has taught me that. Let me start crying. It has taught me that how I raise my son is so important. Of course, I will teach my daughter all of the same things that I was taught about how to protect yourself, how to, you know, not go to a party and, quote, unquote, put yourself at risk. And, of course, I will teach her all those things because I know that the threat is very real. But I have tried so hard to raise my son in a way that maybe the generation of girls that he's growing up with will have one less young man to be scared of and that he has the power as a young white man to really make a difference. And I don't think I thought about sons the same way doing this work. But I also think right up there with that is trusting your instincts. Like that, to me, is the. Whether it's as a daughter, a wife, a mom, an advocate, a friend, trust your instincts. Because sometimes, you know, even with people here, I think sometimes, like, oh, maybe she doesn't want to talk about that, whether it's staff or residents. But what's it going to hurt if I ask?

[37:00] MICHELLE ROWLEY: That's right.

[37:00] JESSICA WOOLBRIGHT: Right.

[37:01] MICHELLE ROWLEY: I have learned you could ask anything and say anything. Do it from a base of love, and you can ask or say anything. I've also learned, and I've learned that, like, we are the masters of our own destiny. And I say that around here that people laugh now, but it is so true. And I see that with our women that we serve. I see that with our staff. Like, if you want this life, then you go create this life, and we'll.

[37:32] JESSICA WOOLBRIGHT: Have your back while you do it.

[37:33] MICHELLE ROWLEY: And we'll have your back.

[37:35] JESSICA WOOLBRIGHT: And there will be challenges and things out of your control.

[37:38] MICHELLE ROWLEY: Yes.

[37:39] JESSICA WOOLBRIGHT: Yeah.

[37:39] MICHELLE ROWLEY: Yeah.

[37:53] JESSICA WOOLBRIGHT: Wonderful, you guys. Thank you so much. We're just going to do 10 seconds of silence now for editing, and then we'll stop the recording.