Jim Manhart and Debora Moore

00:01 Lil Wayne more. I am 54 years old today is Tuesday, October 26th 2021.

00:10 I am located in King, William, Virginia.

00:14 My recording. Partner's name is Jim.

00:18 And he is my one small. Step conversation partner.

00:25 And I am Jim Manhart, ages. 65 today is October 26th 2021. I'm located. In Somersworth New Hampshire. My recording partner's name is Debbie and she is my one step conversation partner.

00:53 And I'd love to pose to you, both is just to share with each other. What made you interested in doing a one small step conversation with each other today?

01:06 Okay. I know we've been trying to do this for a while. I enjoy meeting people and

01:16 I'm open to new conversations and learning about people. I've always been a bit philanthropic.

01:28 And sociable for the most part. So I look forward to having real conversations with my peers.

01:42 And mine. I actually had seen some news report on one of the news networks about one story and I signed up for it, because we keep telling us ourselves for the last twenty years, were a divided nation that we have political polarisation, and I liked one stories philosophy of sitting people down with different ideas and just listening to each other. Having a conversation, trying to get back to

02:23 Where does America go in the future? Now that we've come the way we have so far. How do we make a better future for all?

02:38 For sharing that.

02:42 If you are comfortable. And the next thing is, just, if you can read out loud, you're recording Partners Bayou. And once you've both done, that, feel free to kind of return to those and ask her any questions you have or things that you were curious to know about each other.

02:59 Okay, I'll read. Jim's, Ohio.

03:04 And it says I'm a single man. I lived in the midwest, Minnesota and Iowa from birth until age 42, but work brought me to New Hampshire in 1998.

03:17 I love the n. H Live Free or Die, Moto and hiking in the White Mountains.

03:25 During my formative years country in, Catholic religion, promoted heterosexuality. That's my big life event was accepting myself as gay and getting on with my life and political issues that I support include education. Medical research nature science, historical and social relief efforts.

03:49 And reading the boras.

03:52 Bio. I am from the pamunkey Indian tribe here in Virginia, and live with my Traditional Values. Close to my heart, but not against adaptation, my

04:08 People were the best at that and evolving.

04:13 Growing up on the reservation. Gave me a sense of Pride for my culture, but leaving home and living in the urban world as challenging as a young girl. I am now 53. Founder of a nonprofit tornadoes and in college traditional Master Potter and spiritual advisor too many.

04:41 Debbie. If I could ask you, I have many questions from your bio actually.

04:50 Baby starting with your first part, where you can, you share more about what your Traditional Values are that, you hold close to your heart. And then what you meant by not against adaption. Or I think the original one I actually said, adoption is to whether there's a difference between those two words.

05:20 Okay.

05:23 Let's say, I grew up with Traditional Values. I grew up in my community with my culture. So, for me, and those around me, when we speak of tradition and Traditional Values, it's pretty. We all agree on that in and feel the same way. It's something you grow up with. So, it's interesting that you ask because I've never really had to answer that question before, which I like, which is great Traditional Values for me or

05:58 I'm not a religious woman, but I am a spiritual Woman and

06:04 I've tried, I played piano in my church, I grew up on my reservation with the Baptist Church. That was put there.

06:13 But it was very confusing living in.

06:16 Trying to be a Christian and a native. There was a disconnect and my Traditional Values have to do with.

06:25 My spirituality and

06:28 Everything I do. I pray on when I have big decisions and my prayers are conversation with my maker, like I'm having with you, but there could be an involvement of sage and Cedar burning.

06:44 I believe in that relationship with the higher power. That's where my strength comes from. I've had quite a challenge in life. So that is my culture and those values really kept me. Lifted through all of it.

07:05 I'm not against.

07:09 Evolution of my people, you know, where

07:14 In much of the world when people learn that your Native American, you're treated like an artifact or

07:23 Something of the past. So when they see us as we are now.

07:31 You know, they're expecting something from Hollywood or from an old western movie. That really doesn't exist.

07:38 So, I've had to fight for my

07:41 Native identity all my life, even from other Indian people cuz we are so diverse.

07:48 And so different with each of our tribes and I am also a, my father was native, but he was also Italian and English.

07:58 That my mother is a full-blood. I'm pretty much but I grew up native. That's how I identify I grew up on the reservation and my father died when I was a year-and-a-half-old. So we left, Pennsylvania that time.

08:14 And came back to the reservation for. I've spent most of my life, but I'd I see a lot of

08:23 Native people that keep us in the past as well. I danced at the powwows. I do programs at schools and universities. I have two nonprofits that I was I was the founder of but I had to put them on the back burner for now with everything that's going on. I just lost my sister.

08:48 Thank you, and it's been a challenging couple of weeks.

08:54 What are the things that?

08:58 I guess it's a lot. My life-work really was.

09:03 Showing how that we are indigenous in the 21st century, and we evolved like other cultures.

09:09 Just like other cultures and

09:14 We live like everyone else instead of, you know, it starts when they're young and school. They still show old historical.

09:23 Looking for ancestors of my, they don't show us as we are today.

09:28 So I'm working my part in all of that is to present myself as I am today and honor of my ancestors. Yet. Here. We are in the 21st century.

09:39 I'm not extinct. Not an artifact.

09:42 I live in an area where

09:47 We weren't very accepted, Virginia was tough to grow up in.

09:52 China Civil Rights Movement, since the 1600s, Virginia has been a

09:58 Interesting, and I've been given more opportunity than my mother.

10:03 So my Generations opening doors for the younger ones, which is

10:09 The good you do.

10:16 Jim, I want to ask you a question if you don't mind.

10:20 Sure.

10:23 I see one thing as I mentioned with, you know, trying to go to this church. I was going to inhale

10:33 Difficult, it wasn't for you.

10:36 Throwing up in the Catholic religion or country religion.

10:43 I can't imagine.

10:48 And knowing if knowing your true self for all your life and then having to put on this Brave face of being something else.

10:58 Then you finally accepted yourself as you are. Would you want to do? You want to share anything about that?

11:05 Sherm. Actually as you were talking about your experience, I look for similarities. When you first need somebody or something that a common experience even though it looks a different. You mentioned about your traditional Services. I know I forgot what it was besides Sage that you burn as you are trying to meditate or talk of a higher power. That's not so different from the Catholic religion that I grew up with that burned incense at different times and stunk up the church. I'm not certain if it was supposed to make you get to a higher power but it struck me. That that is some similarities right there. The difference for me would have been you would have known from Little on that you were

12:05 Pamunkey as opposed to White America, possibly, whereas, for me I can honestly say up through.

12:17 9th grade, Maybe.

12:20 I didn't.

12:23 Different gay people have different stories when they come out as to, when they knew they were gay. I don't know that I subscribe. I'm a science person and the jury is still out. Are you gay at further? Does it is added attraction between heredity and environment? Which is what I think it is, but I wasn't abused. As a child. I was trying to be just like some of the white supremacist I suppose or that job people pointing to the white heterosexual male except that. As I started going through high school. There was a revelation that something isn't quite the same about it. So there's a little bit of difference there as to

13:23 My minority status because I always supposedly had the right or option to hide it. Just as looking at you, you would not necessarily probably have to say, well, because of your mixed-up rental of parent on parents. You wouldn't necessarily have to identify as an Indian Native American, but that's part of of your tradition. And part of what you is is where you're getting your identity from, for me. I think personally, and I can't speak for other gay people. It doesn't happen to every gay person for me having my society and my religion. Both have this idea that what I was supposed to do as a white.

14:23 Male in this Society was a dissonance and I think I question things more than what I would have had everything going on on.

14:36 You're not exactly like I have been told to expect and stuff. So but I do see some similarities for a night. I mean by Mine by Norah G. Statuses is being gay, a did slightly different than other minorities and

15:02 I haven't throwing out. You know what, I was taught by my society and my my religion, I had to change something in order to have a concept of my identity self concept, but the Traditional Values you talk about or talk to me also by my culture and by my religion and they serve as guiding principles at 65, even though I might not believe everything that the society and culture told me.

15:47 And, yes, I agree with you. I like your idea of people evolve that there's a constant in this world. It is that change. Always.

16:01 Yes, yes.

16:04 I find it interesting that, you know, you sure did. I recently had a conversation with one of my best friends and we were talking about.

16:16 You know what? The passing of my sister people's true colors that really come out when it involves her things, you know, materialistic things and her beneficiary. Who's my oldest brother? Who has not? He lives in Louisiana. He's refused to reach out when we're not, we're very estranged.

16:40 But one of the things that a friend of mine,

16:47 And I conversation we had the other day as

16:50 I don't have regular TV. I just have internet and Netflix and

16:55 Prime Hulu, and I don't get to watch the news but I

17:02 And not one to discuss politics. That's just me because it's, it's everything's such a mess here in the last few years.

17:11 I'm one of the things that we, as I'm watching, we're watching this. And she's telling me about the news.

17:18 I thought then I verbally said, you know, man has always thought he was at the top of the life chain.

17:28 Above the animals, above the fish, the reptile everything and and I don't believe that, I don't believe that we're the smartest of all living things on this Earth. Until I say, we make a lot of mistakes and we ruined a lot of things to. How do you feel about that?

17:46 Actually from a scientific standpoint, one of the fillers in my life is my science background. I was trained as a life science person biology, but I was a high school teacher for 13 years. And in the second year. I taught there was a shortage of physics teachers.

18:09 So I volunteered because I had only had one year of physics in my whole life and it was a hard course. For me. I volunteered to teach this course that I was still teaching 11 years later and I got to enjoy physics more than my biology where that leads me to my biology background is in spanks, whether not certain where you get that, man, isn't the highest animal? If that's from your traditional pamunkey value system, but it's comes from my side system. To, we are an animal, like any other animal that we do have a brain that allows us to wonder. What the heck, are we here for, but we

19:05 And that has given us an advantage.

19:10 To think where the, the smartest creature on the, on the Earth, but we may be on the Earth, but I don't know if in the whole universe question to unifying principle is where the physicist that they are trying to in equation explained everything in the universe and their grand unifying Theory and that appeals to me, too. I don't know that I'll ever understand the mathematics of what they do, but they resolve this question. Why were we made? Why are we here?

19:52 And even if there was no God.

19:57 Does that mean we can just be selfish and not get along with the other people in our world? And I say, no, it doesn't another pillar of My Life religion. When I knew, I didn't believe every kind of thing that the Catholic Church might have taught me in terms of sacraments of stuff. It just wasn't doing it for me to go to a church service where the priest is talking about Adam and Eve and not getting to maybe something more needy than what I was told as a first grader in Catholic school and understood, then as a first grader, but doesn't want to understand well.

20:49 Some better. You know, how do I change as an adult to take something? I was told as a little kid and make it practical to how I live as an adult.

21:02 Yeah, I wanted to pick your brain on that because I noticed that nature signs historical.

21:08 A part of your

21:10 Bio there. And I am quite the Nature and Science and historical nerd. I don't have the degrees. My degree is in Psychology cultural psychology. But I love. Zion Manor. Okay. Okay science include. Yeah, I was a senior in high school. I had sociology and psychology from a teacher who hands down was my mentor in a time when I felt very alone. I Knew by high school, if I had had good role models that I was gay, but can't tell anyone or jumped.

22:00 Yeah.

22:03 So psycho.

22:07 Psychologically.

22:10 Having to Harbor that secret.

22:15 Like myself, I consider myself not buying it, binary.

22:19 I don't like putting titles on people. I don't like putting. Am I bisexual? Am I straight if I do not like, I never was one to put a title on what my sexuality is. I'm, I'm open and and I'm I free flow. I don't see people.

22:38 I see that spirits of people there inside what they bring from their heart, and spirit compared to their exterior. Exterior does help, but I'm not straight. I'm not buy. I'm not gay. I just can't put a label. I'd rather not label myself because Society has labeled us and being a Native American. It's also hard at my age. Now. I still can't talk about it openly because in my communities, it's not, it wasn't very accepted and my family wouldn't accept that. So I still can't talk about it.

23:22 I don't want to talk about it with them because of the negative.

23:28 That I will hear and I don't want to hear it. So I have this secret, many of my friends and all I can talk to but far as blood family.

23:39 Can I can I follow up on that? Just trying to convince you of anything? But the part of why I did, this one started story conversation that I said, you know bringing people together. One thing as much as in my lifetime. My opinion is Donald Trump was the worst president of my whole lifetime to Eisenhower and I voted Republican. I voted for Gerald, was my first vote for American President Aldo Eileen. Last. I am not, I'm more. Can we get the middle of all the people that can listen and have conversations on are not pulling the moral part that the femoral card or something that I have to believe this.

24:39 And can bring people more together is a piece. It really was the, the, the election where I realized. I have two sisters that I have thought I come from a family of. I have six siblings besides myself. So I came from those days was a medium-sized Catholic Family. We weren't on the farm where they have 13 kids or whatever but

25:20 I've lost my train of thought here. I've gone on a tangent and I are absent realized I have been listening to the news on like you and I'm being told by my news media. What is the jellicle spank? And here I have two family members that are Evangelical and I've never asked them what that meant and over the Christmas holidays last year when we couldn't get together for Thanksgiving and Christmas. And we're in our all the other places. I decided I'm going to finally asked my sister's, what does being a angelical mean to them? And I got two different answer from them alone. And yes part of it was

26:16 Evangelical man, that you take the Bible as a starting place, but I also found just comparing my two sisters because they differ a bit in educational amount of formal education. They've gone through one sister was more fundamentalists about what the Bible says. And another one was and even for myself for me as a gay man to come to terms with the religious background because I went through to the Catholic School from grades one. Through eight, six of those grades were pre-vatican to stuff all over the changes in the church that occurred occurred when I was in sixth grade, so I had some pretty Vatican to Catholic teaching and some post Medical.

27:16 To teach you some things. So I've I've learned to embrace.

27:28 At least my Catholicism allows me not to pick. Choose a choice between Republican and Democrat because I have some relatives that vote Republican solely on the abortion issue. You have a right to the right to life issue for them. And that's a moral issue for them. You're not going to convince them any different and yet I have Catholics in the family that embraced more, so the social justice of the post Vatican, two changes that came out of the church and they voted Democrat little. So, I actually come from a background when I talk with my family.

28:16 Slept slept like the country.

28:25 But I was wondering that was a hard conversation. I had to start with my siblings that I thought, if I couldn't start it with my own family. Is there any hope that I could help America come together? And so can you share more if you wish about? You said, you're kind of a strange form. I think you mentioned a brother.

28:51 As to what causes that friction in your family, or why don't think it's may be possible to have a difficult conversation with your own family.

29:05 Or what would?

29:10 I have two brothers that really don't communicate with their family and I don't.

29:17 Try to make excuses for them. They are who they are. One of them went through. A lot of trauma.

29:26 And he's just kind of a likes to keep to himself and and that's okay. I wish him all the best. But he really hurt my mother and I with his actions and some of the things he did in life.

29:44 We forgave him but he just would rather not communicate and that's fine. My oldest brother. We just well, I've met him twice that I remember he's 71.

29:56 My mother was 15 when she was raped on the near the reservation and he my oldest brother is my half-brother, which I didn't know, until two years ago.

30:09 And he just hasn't made too many attempts to communicate with me or my mother with my sister recently passing. He was her beneficiary.

30:22 He didn't come to the services, he

30:25 Told me he wasn't going to help and my mother was so excited about her. Oldest her firstborn coming. She was sixteen when she had him.

30:36 I hate it. He hasn't called her since and him and my sister spoke often.

30:41 I don't know what they spoke about. My sister had a

30:45 Saying where our relationship was off and on. But that was by her choice. I always approached her with love as a sister, but she had a hard time with that and it could be from her own, trauma in a historical. Trauma runs. Deep.

31:02 And our family. And it's passed on to generation to generation until somebody finally says it stops here. And that's what I've chosen to do. If I feel

31:16 I feel that I don't I ever reached out enough.

31:20 You know that story about,

31:23 You know, the dog bites, but you keep trying to pet it and it keeps biting you, but you keep trying to keep getting bit, and that's how it feels with them. So I'm not going to get bit anymore. I'm not going to. I've done everything with love with patience. I've done my part, but I don't believe my maker my Creator. It cause such a depression in my life. It caused.

31:50 So much depression and hurt that I wasn't able to focus on.

31:56 Two things in life. I need to focus on and I've have done diligent work within the last few years to let them go. I don't believe we were meant to be here to Preston and not functioning and I was not functioning.

32:10 You're my best abilities and which is I've always strived to do my best and everything. I do and family are not if they're toxic. They're toxic.

32:22 So, I've had to, I'm just trying to

32:27 Hold my mother together right now through all of this because I'm pretty much all she has.

32:32 There are three other of children of hers that are living, but they're all boys, the boys.

32:39 Just, you know, they're just not capable of.

32:46 Thinking about anything but themselves, so not to rip them apart or anything, but I'm very different than the rest of my family. And right now, my priority is to help my 87 year old mother get through this transition and

33:04 Yeah, bring her some joy and her older days cuz her trauma in life has been so.

33:09 Obvious then so overwhelming that we're doing work on that too. To help her heal through that. The boys, they're on their own and I doesn't hurt anymore. I think I hurt long enough over it.

33:27 That's about all. I can say about that. I think I see similarities again there in terms of its the human us when

33:42 I lived in the midwest. I was living in the gay closet and the biggest leap of faith. I took. So to speak, was moving here to New Hampshire. Where my job took me in 98. I mean I was looking for a job. I had to leave the Midwest to move to New Hampshire and

34:10 Part of my healing part of how did I get to the point where I could openly be recorded in? S j? If you had asked me 40 years ago without ever possible. I would have said no way.

34:32 And I, I look at three things in my life. I'm kind of even though my background is in science. The first subject that I ever did well, at in school was actually, you won't geography because I wanted to know where the heck I was. But then I think of my father who was a veteran in World War. I used to think that I was a little kid. World war was ancient history, was only 11 years before, I was born my parents, but you needed once. One of the teachers I talked with one time said to me, I think you have to live long enough to have a sense of your own personal history in order to appreciate, you know, thousands of years of human history and what's going on.

35:32 But that piece and then being in a supportive group of one of the first things. Luckily when I moved out here in 98, the internet was just coming into being in terms of email them and things like that. And I was able to find that, you know, if I moved out to New Hampshire there was a gay and lesbian hiking Club out of Boston that existed and I for a whole year got their newsletters will it was kind of cultural shock coming out here to live in New Hampshire happened to The Familiar coordinate grid of streets and avenues.

36:32 Every number from 100 to 200 rap, lyrics rather than take me a year after year. I started hiking with those gay and lesbian Club. Found that these people were just like me and some of the same issues. Where is the only thing I saw in the midwest? In the time I grew up was

37:17 The news would cover some gay pride parade where some game Bale was dressed up in Drag and that's different. I've not, I don't have a gender identity problem. I've always identified as male, as though, I've not had any issues of wanting to dress up in women's clothing. Although I'm surprised that I've had a sexual brother and hetrosexual cousins, that always got a kick out of when we were kids dressing up in the dresses that the my sisters and cousin, young female cousins were trusting up as

38:03 It was like, I had no role model found. It was like I'm not exactly like what I see on the media and there is no fun at all of the Midwest, that's like me. So maybe if I just go to the coast because the news did tell you there were gay people in New York, Miami and San Francisco.

38:29 And in my wildest dreams that even I could get married at this mad wonderful.

38:40 I think it's been working towards equality.

38:51 List all so gay. Marriage is one of them Mothers Against Drunk Driving. Also had a big impact when I grew up. I remember my dad and my uncles drinking, you know, at Family get-togethers and would have one for the road as they can load up their family to the car and go off to drive home while having drunk then, drinking all afternoon, and that's changed. And the other one is the fall of the Berlin Wall we ever. Thank you.

39:29 The Soviet Union was going to fall apart in our lifetime. All right, right. There's always hope I think.

39:40 But yes, I think I agree with you if I felt.

39:46 My family that I couldn't. I've never really had a conversation about the about being gay or them asking me anything. Like do you have a boyfriend? So I've never really talked to them about it.

40:08 But that was the important for me to contact and just ask my I asked about the, my Evangelical sisters in a paragraph or two, write down. What does being indifferent? Teleco mean, to you?

40:25 What have you done in your nonprofits? I know their kind of on hold.

40:33 Yeah, well, in 2003, I started The intertribal Women's Circle actually in 1998. I started meeting with the women from my own tribe.

40:46 And we had formed the pamunkey women's Council.

40:52 And over the years as other Indian women, you know, they're only

40:58 Lifted like 13,000 natives in Virginia at the time when we had sommat, like 80,000, we had so many more, but they weren't from a Virginia Truck. They were away from home away from their people. So there came a time when I opened a meeting to all the Indian women. I knew that had I had met through my networking and for them to bring their families and our first big meeting.

41:26 It was over 100 women from far as Florida to Maine. That came many Native women in Virginia that were away from their tribes and felt alone here. And

41:38 Every night. I videotaped it. I taped it. And everyone was in tears to be able to meet and have women of like mine come together. So we ended up changing the name to The intertribal Women's Circle cuz they weren't all pamunkey. And unfortunately my own tribal members, the majority of the women down there, just kind of turned on me. They didn't want that. But they also wanted, you know, you have people that

42:08 You know, have their own selfish reasons for things and I wasn't about that. I was about unifying.

42:16 Are women because our women didn't have a voice. At the time, we didn't have a vote in our tribe. We didn't have the right to to speak. I mean, anything and we come from a tree lineal Society. So a lot of nature, Lenny all societies have gotten together. And over the years, has about 200 members. We received numerous community service awards from the house from the governor's. I received a check to Community Service Awards. Myself for the work that I do in the Arts and teaching traditional art forms to tribal people. Native. Journeywoman. I was the East Coast executive director, one of my mentors died from cancer a few years ago, and she asked that I continue on the east coast and it was more about Native Women's Wellness and conversations that we didn't have. I mean, there's a lot of conversations that women in general don't have because it was taboo or what?

43:16 We talked about, so we open those doors, one of those doors with historical trauma. It was not something I ever talked about. Nobody knew what it was. Nobody understood. Why am I so sad? I have a great life. What's going on? What's this word? And you know, when you have a 98 year old Elder that comes to you and says, thank you, because now I have a word for what I feel and I never knew it. These are those are their bonuses of doing the work? We did. What do you mean by historical trauma? I'm not certain, I have maybe the same concept behind when I hear that, okay.

43:56 Well, that the easiest way I can tell you is consider my ancestors.

44:05 The living in a land.

44:08 On a ladder that they don't claim. It's, it's a gift or surviving, they have agriculture. They have technology. And another group of people comes along and says, all I'm going to take this from you, cuz you don't deserve it. So, we're going to keep pushing you out of the way and through all of that, through the losses, through the depths my people never got to sit still and more they had to keep going, keep fighting. So there was no morning time.

44:37 Through that. And it's proven. I believe scientific. I don't remember the group that did it that in our DNA. Is this trauma? It's still in our bodies. It's from our mothers in our grandmother's. There was no time to mourn and if you've been through a traumatic experience, I have, and I was diagnosed with PTSD but several years ago, but I've done a lot of work to get through that.

45:07 The trauma of my mother and her mother is in me.

45:13 And that trauma when it connects to your own personal trauma, there's this deep hurt. This empty void that has never been addressed in my people until more recently when we started having meetings about it.

45:31 And it's still a work in progress, but there's plenty of cultures with her ancestors. Didn't get two more and they had to keep fighting there to keep going had to keep moving. They had to keep getting kicked in the teeth that and there was no time to mourn and those are energies and emotions that you have to get out of the body. It's poison and many of my ancestors. Didn't get the opportunity to do that and it's not just our culture too many cultures.

46:01 Did that answer your question me food for thought in terms of?

46:10 I've heard even in scientific circles. What you just said. I haven't read a lot on it, but being passed through the DNA, that there might be something to that. Now, as a science person. I don't know why you can never prove anything 100%. Sure. Science is always the adjective. We forget that it's the same as for the longest time. I wasted a lot of my life or early life wondering whether gayness is caused by heredity or environment. Well, it's probably, you know, they interacted. I'm a gay person. If you ask me what turned me, gay. I wouldn't know it's the same question. Most gay people say to hetrosexual. How did you know at what point did? You know? You were Heather?

47:10 Sexual what it meant to be female or male and and all of those those pieces in our short time though. One of the things I've been fascinated with with Native American culture is realizing I believe knit. All Native Americans have been American citizens for their coming up on the 100th birthday, 2024.

47:52 And I always wonder when you talk about your culture, when you refer to my culture.

48:00 Is that an junkster position to American culture, or do you see?

48:08 Is there a way that you also see your part of the Great United States?

48:16 Well, my culture predates America.

48:19 So when I say my culture, it's my indigenous culture. That's how I that's how I relate. That's how I identify. That's how I grew up with a traditional family on the reservation. When I left home. I still kept my traditions in my home, but I was living in urban in cities. I've lived in Florida, and New York, Alaska. Alaska was different because I learned to survive there, but living elsewhere. I a lot of people thought I was Puerto Rican because, you know, I don't look like the Hollywood Indian and I had to fight for my indigenous.

48:59 So, when I say,

49:06 Identity is 100% native.

49:12 And I know my rich culture comes from Powhatan. Be Cancun. O clock osk. The queen of the PO monkey with my grandmother. So I have a rich

49:23 History here, that predates America's. So I don't consider myself an American citizen. I do consider myself a in Union with the Earth here. And this is my homeland and its anger with indigenous people. It's not so much about, it's also about our identity, but it's also our connection to the land. That's the most important to us is the land that we have been able to keep my trap, has been able to preserve some of our land. A lot of it was taken, but we have fought for this land and we are connected to that. So, I think that indigenous, but the majority of indigenous people, especially my generation will say it,

50:06 That connection to land like even when I left home, I I wasn't ever home. I sang and blues bands. I did great things, but I wasn't home. So I came back home.

50:18 Isaac.

50:26 But you want to share with each other or just close out. I'll turn the recording off when you're ready.

50:32 I enjoyed this conversation and listen to you.

50:38 I did too. I mean, it actually, I see more similarities of our experience are vastly different, but I tried to see ways for unification. My last question to you was really trying to figure out for me accepting myself as a gay American. And one of the ways I was able to do, that was realizing a white heterosexual male living in the society. Today is November.

51:24 Life of cherries either. Yes, there may be privileged as but you're blamed for every evil on the face of the planet. And so it's kind of like I'm trying to figure out how I would

51:40 How do?

51:43 When indigenous people are seen as different or want or any group Hispanic African Americans,

51:53 Cling to their own identity. How is that received mobile? And it's more, are you rejecting the white culture? Now, you have a good reason to do. So in your, you were here, first team 76 when America was made. No, I don't reject any of my culture. I'm actually it since my father died. I wasn't two years old yet, and his mother had told my mother. His mother didn't approve of the marriage because my mother was native and they did not know that he also had made of blood on his father's side. And I remember Mom telling me that she had said to Mom will Bill always did like to bring stray dogs home.

52:49 So that's how my mother was accepted into his family. But I'm so we didn't I didn't get to learn much about his family until the last few years where I found Shawnee and the Italian I've lived in so many diverse communities that I never really felt. I put I didn't feel like an outsider because I'm open to culture. I love culture and history, but I wasn't with my indigenous people.

53:15 Always and that made me feel very different than other people around me until I got older. And those were just my own demons. I had to work on. I'm very open and I can speak to anyone, but I am quite the homebody because of everything that's going on. Now. I think you guys are like Trump set us back, hundreds of years and the Prejudice in my area where I live, is pretty rampant. So I choose to stay in my safe place which is here. And I think that has to do with my PTSD to

53:56 Did that answer? I don't think I answered your question. But no, I am all my blood. I call them blood tones at I just honored living and I choose to be a more traditional indigenous woman from birth of a B. I believe that's where I am. That's my life. That's the choice. I made to honor that above all else and it hasn't been easy, but I am a teacher in it. So I've been given a mazing opportunities and ahead of enlightened a lot around me. A lot of those around me that

54:42 You know, we're more accepted now than we were when I was growing up. We were still artifacts or people made fun or you know, they were always jokes. And then, you know, as you get older, you grow a thicker skin. So those things really don't bother me so much. I just see a difference at that point, but I would fight, I just wanted to fight everybody. And, you know, I think we do that. When we're young and full of hormones, you want to protect your family and I had, I was fairly nice. I would fight any things have changed and I, it's just up to us as indigenous, people to educate and so I want to be part of that solution. Not the problem start of the tribal if you'll excuse the pun, the tribal Instinct. And it's true of any group. I think as part of our human evolution. I think I think so too. I mean, we were taking some of us are still hunter-gatherers. I'm still a hunter-gatherer.

55:42 But I live in 2021 and I want the best for my life and my family just as everybody else does, you know? But I really enjoyed our conversation to. Thank you to. There's much more. I could ask you about, we could go on for our need to get together again.

56:03 Cuz you've actually added to my understanding of Native Americans. I didn't get a chance to say, I actually had when you talk about being in the minority's visibly in the minority. My first experience was when I'm an early retiree and I volunteered at the National Park, Service out at El Morro National Monument. Well, have the Hispanics, the Zuni, Indians. And the white of people like myself all in that area of New Mexico and I was out there for 11 weeks and that's the longest experience I've ever had, where I'm not in the my majority, and that's your opinion. It's more fear of the fear of the unknown of the other is out to harm you. Or, or do you ask

57:02 Ill or well, I understand. Yeah, I understand. What's the most moving things was one of the Zuni. Indians one time. He was just getting a drink of water. And on his way back. He stopped to talk to me. And one of the park rangers and in like a three-minute monologue, he talked about his religious beliefs, and I really wish I had that. And then even,

57:37 Some guilt of, obviously, I wasn't part of it. I'm well, aware of those in my native state of Minnesota. The Lakota people were driven out, 38. I think it was. 38, lakotas were hung for the so-called Sue up. Amazing of 1862. I know it's called something else by the wasn't very long ago.

58:03 Yeah, I know.

58:05 And things. So,

58:08 Tribe evolved in my own lifetime.

58:12 Well, I hope we get to talk again. So I'm going to turn the recording office. That's all right.