Joanie Schirm and Elise Rolenc

[00:05] JOANIE SCHIRM: My name is Joanie Schirm and I am 73 years old. And today is Wednesday, May 4, 2022. I'm in Orlando, Florida. My partner's name conversation is Elise. And my relationship is. I'm just getting demeter.

[00:29] ELISE ROLENC: Hi, my name is Elise Rolenc I am 50 years old. Today's date is Wednesday, May 4, 2022. I am in Kissimmee, Florida. Joanie is my conversation partner, and my relationship to Joanie is. We are new friends. Are we supposed to read the bios? Yeah.

[01:07] JOANIE SCHIRM: So I will read what Elisa's bio says. I am a mom of two boys, fur mama and wife of an air force veteran. I am a yoga fitness instructor with a master's degree. Education is incredibly important to me, but the relationship in education is the priority. Schools are too big and create tribalism. Schools should teach. I'm having bad eyes here. Should teach reading, writing, math, and science. Parents should be. Should do the rest. Parents are the ultimate arbiter of their kids. Government should be limited in all aspects of life.

[01:54] ELISE ROLENC: And I will read Joanie's bio. I grew up in Florida during the 1950s, the sixties. My schools were segregated, and I had little contact with the black or jewish communities. My physician dad was a czech jewish refugee who lost his parents more in the holocaust. My mother was born in China to american missionaries. She met and married dad in China and lived out a 60 year love affair. I retired in 2008 from owning my own engineering firm and am nonfiction author, writing about my dad's refugee life and the demise of democracy, which I think is fascinating. I can't wait to read your book.

[02:39] JOANIE SCHIRM: Thank you.

[02:40] ELISE ROLENC: Really? Yeah. Can you tell me a little bit about your dad?

[02:46] JOANIE SCHIRM: Well, he was a longtime physician in Melbourne, Florida, and I was born in Florida, so I'm a native. We grew up on the island, and my mother was a very big volunteer in things like education, like you're talking about. She was a teacher by the grade. And our family was just kind of raised with the knowledge of their background because they met and married in China. So it was a big story and different than most kids could tell, but we really didn't know his whole background until actually, my mom and dad died within two days of each other in 2000. And we found among their possessions a very large letter collection of world War two letters that he had saved for over 400 letters by 78 writers, many of them refugees like him, scattered around the world. And then my parents meeting and things that were wonderful stories to bring it all to life from that time period. So that's what I write about. And it has very much modern relevance to everything around us happening today, including the ukrainian refugee situation, because the voices sound very similar. So anyway, it's a very magical opportunity for me in life to have this, in my last chapter of life, to be able to learn all about it and share it with people and a lot of people that are students in schools. So.

[04:09] ELISE ROLENC: Do you go into schools and share the stories?

[04:12] JOANIE SCHIRM: I do. I do. And it is a wonderful experience, and I think we all learn from it and a lot of dialogue of commonalities of kids that have come here as immigrants or even children and refugees, and all of that, those stories come out and we all learn together. It's very, very wonderful.

[04:30] ELISE ROLENC: That's amazing. It truly is such an amazing story. I'm fascinated by the Holocaust. I don't know why. When I was a younger kid, I used to have horrible nightmares about the Holocaust. And, yeah, it's just sort of a weird thing. We are. Family is German. We have German in our background. But I was just saying to my mom, did we know anybody? Were we part of it? I don't know, because I used to always come at me and I watch almost all these shows about the Holocaust and just fascinated about that timeframe, about how it happened and what happened, and, you know, and obviously that it could, you know, easily happen again.

[05:15] JOANIE SCHIRM: That's. That's true. I will tell you that my father always said this, that he viewed Germans as individuals, and he never held any malice for anybody, just broadly because they were German. He never felt that way. And he knew, you know, more than most about what it meant and what the losses can be. But. But I grew up like that. I don't. I don't, you know, harbor any feelings towards anybody about that. It was, you know, a history we just need to learn from.

[05:41] ELISE ROLENC: Yeah. Yeah. And so why was your dad. Your dad was in China?

[05:45] JOANIE SCHIRM: Was he in China because he was jewish? At that time, there were not very many countries accepting jewish refugees. And there's a little known story that I think should be much wider known about Shanghai, because the Japanese were at war with the Chinese at the time, and they didn't require landing permits or visas. And so there were 20,000 Jews who made their way to China, a very foreign land, but then ended up surviving because they went there. So a lot of people don't know it. It's a wonderful story, but, you know, it saved my father's life and several of his friends who went there. So important. Yeah.

[06:25] ELISE ROLENC: And you said he lost his parents in the Holocaust.

[06:28] JOANIE SCHIRM: He did. His parents were taken away very early in the early part of 1942 and perished, likely at Sobibor, one of the death camps built for the purpose of exterminating jews only. And then also 42 other relatives perished. And I've done a lot of research, and, you know, it's hard to do. It's very hard to do. But once you begin to learn, you also see the trends of history and that feel like we all need to notice the trends and react in a way that's reasonable and productive. So, anyway, that's what I hope people get out of the story, really. And that people have wonderful lives after they go through horrible things. Sometimes it makes them stronger and more caring, and I. And all of that. So that's another thing.

[07:13] ELISE ROLENC: Oh, that is so true. Yes, very much so.

[07:17] JOANIE SCHIRM: So tell me a little bit about you. Cause I feel like we do have commonalities. My husband is a veteran, Us army veteran. My. You know, my mother was a teacher. I have a son in law as a teacher. My brother taught for periods in his career. He was a scientist. And so I know we both care about education. So anyway, tell me more.

[07:37] ELISE ROLENC: Well, it's interesting. I read this. I think I wrote this. I don't remember exactly how long ago I wrote this. I know it's been a while catching up with everything throughout the pandemic and everything, but obviously, there's so much more to that we could probably discuss than just that. But, yeah. I'm not an educator. However, I believe that I am. I work in the fitness industry, and I, you know, health, to me, is very important. And I see so many trends that go in the opposite direction of actual health. And I see that with our children. And my children are now grown. They are in college. I have one at UCF, and he is studying criminal justice and getting his private pilot's license. He wants to become pilot like his dad, and then. Yeah. Isn't that neat?

[08:33] JOANIE SCHIRM: Yeah.

[08:34] ELISE ROLENC: And then my younger son is now a freshman, or what they call a plebe, at the United States Military Academy, West Point.

[08:45] JOANIE SCHIRM: Wow.

[08:46] ELISE ROLENC: Yeah. So it's a. You know, they're. They're both going in their own direction and found their own voice, and I'm sure they'll continue to find their own voice. But when they were younger, I was always very involved with their education and volunteered. Thankfully, I was able. I had the ability and the opportunity to volunteer, not only because of our situation with family, but also teachers were very welcoming and allowing me to come in and volunteer and be a voice as a parent, which I think is incredibly important. I think parents need to be a vital role in their children's education and doesn't matter. We're talking day one to even as they get older. But yeah, so I just, I know we could probably have a great discussion about education just in the minute time that I've seen my children go through it. I've seen many changes and I don't necessarily find I see too many changes for the better. I just see schools getting incredibly large. I live across the street from a school that they just built recently. I believe it has 5000 to 6000 students. I can't imagine how the teachers and the educators or the administration in there knows any of those children. And what you see happen is almost creating this tribalism where they have their own gangs and they have, you know, they have to find a way to connect with each other and if they're not, they don't have a connection with the, with the teacher or the administration. That's what you see happening. And so I was very thankful and fortunate that I was able to actually go into my children's school and be a partner with their educators.

[10:39] JOANIE SCHIRM: That all sounds really great. And I agree with you on a lot of the things you're saying about concerns of schools and things where we find ourselves and, but we all love teachers. You know, I think that's kind of a common denominator and we, we hope for the shortage that we're experiencing in Florida to figure that out so that we don't have a shortage that really affects the kids, the generations to come. So anyway.

[11:05] ELISE ROLENC: Right, right. Yeah. And you know, I just noticed that with my kids were, you know, while they were in that short period of time, the education really changed to teachers being, being able to be really creative and know, connect with their children to this bland, we did all the work for you just be a facilitator and you don't have to do anything and you, you lose kids, you lose them that way. You know, I mean I'm a, you know, I'm an instructor and so I, not that I have to be entertaining, but I have to be creative in my ability to lead a class and keep them with me the whole time, the whole 55, 60, 90 minutes that I have to lead them through something that could be very challenging for them. I have to have that ability. And if I were set to a script and didn't look into my class and see what they need, then it would be very difficult for me to be effective as a teacher.

[12:12] JOANIE SCHIRM: Right. I would agree with you. I don't want to forget to tell you that for your youngest son that's at West Point, please tell him to make sure he meets David Frey. It's f r e y. He is a. He's in charge for the whole military, not just at west point, for education and understanding this, the Holocaust and genocide, so that the military is prepared when they see signs of any of that. Again, trends probably, but David Fry is a wonderful scholar and would be good for your son to meet and maybe be able to take a course or two from Emmanuel. I don't really know how it works, but anyway, so he's an instructor. He's an instructor there, that program. So I don't know how much he is in instruction, but they certainly have that program based at West Point. If you look up his name, Google his name. Yeah, you can learn more about that program. But he's known internationally. And so that, you know, and it's important, too, that the military really, you know, for everything we're seeing and do involved in that, we know all about it. So it's important for that.

[13:19] ELISE ROLENC: Yes, definitely. Yeah.

[13:21] JOANIE SCHIRM: So I agree with you with the size of schools, for sure. They're just really, you know, I know there's so many things that come into play when you're planning schools. And my husband and I both were on a team that worked for three years as volunteers when our local high school that my son had just attended and had, and it had something like 3200 students, and it was originally built 50 years earlier for 1800. And so they were planning a new school, and we had this great community group like people like you who were just interested in what would happen. And sadly, there was a lot of push and pull from the school board, you know, on issues that shouldn't, in our opinion, have been an issue like, oh, we'll close the school and move it, or we'll do this. And so for three years, we were reacting to things where we. We knew that it was all about trying to build something that was going to work for the generation now, but also future generations. And anyway, it's a beautiful school. It all ended up well. And I think a large part of that was because there were like 25 of us who spent three years working towards that idea. The school is a good school and had a magnet program in math and that sort of thing, and really did excel as a public school and very, very diverse, which is, I think, hugely important in today's world, because that's what the world is like, and everyone should experience that. And that's a benefit of public schools, I think, where you get that. But I think a lot of the problem is that it used to be, and I know, going way back to my days and when my mother was like a PTA president and all of that, and they were smaller schools, it was like you're describing. We knew each other. We knew the teachers. Teachers were there for a long time. Teachers were greatly respected and I think paid well because you never heard that as a conversation back then. It was a profession, and that all went along. And then all of a sudden, I think the local, the locals lost a lot of control to make decisions, and they're the closest to people like you and I who have ideas or want to be involved. And it went to, you know, first, you know, moving to the state level, and then, you know, the federal level grows and tries to, you know, intervene in a lot of things. And I think we've ended up with a system where the people at the local level really, it's taken away from them a lot of the choices. And I'm sure I know in Florida it was the state that changed the size of classrooms and how many you could have. You know, it was like we were dealing with a lot of changes when we were going through the planning of a new school, and we didn't have any rights locally to decide these things. It was a state mandate.

[16:04] ELISE ROLENC: Was that, when was that?

[16:06] JOANIE SCHIRM: Do you remember when he graduated in 2003? And so it was right after that that they built the school. So somewhere in that early part of the two thousands, and it's a great school, but there were a lot of things we couldn't do because the state wouldn't let the locals do it. We wanted to partner with a lot of things. We wanted to partner with the YMCA there, and there were reasons why we couldn't do that. It didn't make any sense to us. So I think that continues to challenge mostly to the locals, I think, in taking away their opportunity to really respond to their community. And we need to figure out how to solve that in some way.

[16:48] ELISE ROLENC: Right? I mean, I, you know, everybody that you talk to in school boards or in politics that have anything to do with education, the only thing they ever really talk about is money. And that, to me, I think, is, from my opinion and what I've seen, that's really not the most important thing. I think you can have a very poor school, but if you have a good relationship with your students and you have an effective teacher who's given the freedom to teach, it doesn't really matter how much money gets poured into a school. And I think, unfortunately, we've looked at just dollars and cents, and it doesn't make any sense. And honestly, I'm not a teacher, but I do find that when you talk to a teacher, that is almost one of the first things that comes up is the fact that they're not paid enough. And I would agree for the amount of work that they do. However, does it have to be that way? You know, I mean, if we had smaller community schools where you had, you know, your community had a school and it came back to local education, learning about, you know, what's around you, obviously, you can partner with other schools, so you get the diversity in, you know, and work with them as far as that goes. But I really think so. My kids were involved in sports, and, I mean, I loved that they were in sports. I absolutely loved it. But I did notice that most schools funding revolves around a sports program. And I don't necessarily think that that's the most important part of a school, even though my kids benefited from it. But they also contributed. I mean, you know, it wasn't like they were, you know, just sucking it dry. It's just they were, they were contributing as well. But I do find that, that you, you know, you have these larger schools, like the one that's cross street, so they put more money into the football program or those things that are gonna draw in crowds that perhaps bring money in. You know, it's very expensive to keep your kids in sports nowadays. And, you know, when I was younger, it was like, yeah, you were on a high school team or, you know, you went outside and played, and that was it. And now it's just this big money maker, and I don't think it should be that way. You find, know that kids that possibly have lots of talent end up getting put to the side because they don't have the opportunities or the ability to travel all around the world because their kids, their parents don't have the money for it. So I think it's just sort of a warped look at education and what the importance of education is. You know, at different levels, obviously, you know, when they're younger, I think education is, you know, getting to know each other and learning social skills and those kind of things. But as you get older, yes, I mean, you know, there should be emphasis on subjects that are tangible. So that's.

[19:53] JOANIE SCHIRM: I would agree. We were a big sports family. Both are for my kids and our grandkids, and we love it and everything, but over those years. Well, first of all, I'll go way back in my day and even in my daughter, my daughter's 14 years older than my son, so there's a big break there now. They're kind of like the same age when you get old.

[20:10] ELISE ROLENC: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[20:11] JOANIE SCHIRM: Anyway, they, my daughter, there wasn't title ix yet. So you didn't have sports for women, you know, kind of for girls and everything? Not in my day. But you did play kickball or, you know, softball or whatever. But I agree with you totally. It's gotten so expensive for kids and these club team things that happen now that kind of like you're saying they don't allow the people that, you know, can't afford that to really be in place when they could play in the public school later because they haven't spent ten years before, you know, all the skills training. So all of that, I agree with you. I think, you know, athletics, as you know, builds pride in your school in a big way. So I think it's always, it's always been important from that aspect, but it's gone, you know, just like you have the issues with the NCAA now and everything. It's gotten a little crazy from amateur, what is truly amateur sports to whatever's happening now. So. Oh yes, I think on behalf of teachers though, we are, Florida is one of the lowest paying teacher salary in all of the nation and always talks about it and never really gets very far. And I think the money they gave them in a raise this year came from COVID special funding pot, you know, so you didn't really give them raises, you're giving them a bonus or something. So you're not really addressing that fundamental thing that seems so important. And like our son in law that's in education, he pays all the stuff that he brings to the classroom. He buys it all. Luckily he can afford to do that. And I think that's something though, that is fundamental. If you're going to attract people to the profession, you have to deal with that. And so I think here, and I don't know where else in the country, but it is an issue and that's why people will leave education. And so I think I just read in the paper and we're 9000 teachers short for the next fall, they predict and, you know, that's a lot of people to find and convince to spend your life in education. And one of the things they have to do is be able to afford housing and hear the high priced housing is real. It's crazy. So how does a teacher, you know?

[22:21] ELISE ROLENC: Yeah, well, I think that's interesting only because, you know, like, obviously getting back to, my kids are younger and so watching, I kind of feel like I watched that change because I often think, like, when did that happen? When did teachers think that they had to pay for everything, you know? And so my kids were, you know, 2007 was my youngest, my oldest, kindergarten. And, you know, I don't remember any kind of shortages or the kindergarten teacher asking for anything. Obviously, I would volunteer and help, but it sort of seemed like almost when my, almost like when my youngest was in like 2nd, 3rd grade, it's almost started to be like, this was mandatory. Like we had, I couldn't have, you know, copy paper and they didn't have. Well, so when did that happen and why did that happen? Like, I think that's an important question to ask. Was that at the state level? Because that's around the time when common core was implemented. So, you know, having, if you look deeply into that, there was a lot of money that was dangled by the federal government to say, accept these standards sight unseen. And a lot of it came with a lot of it. And I watched as our kids also in their school, the lunches changed. Everything changed in there where they actually used to cook in the school. And then it turned into, everything came in on the truck in plastic and all of the steel or aluminum trays that they used to have, they got tossed and they turned into styrofoam so they could recycle them. And I thought this is kind of odd because we had a process here.

[24:05] JOANIE SCHIRM: Where.

[24:07] ELISE ROLENC: You were using same thing over and over again. Kids were being taught to use utensils and those kinds, and now they get to throw everything out and say that they're going to recycle it. So I just, I felt that that was a really strange way to kind. So I think that that was a waste of money and maybe that contributed to it. But obviously, I haven't really sat down and researched all of that. But I think it's an important question to look at, you know, when we talk about teachers getting funding. Okay, where did that change happen? And, you know, teachers have a union that should fight for them. And this union has been basically, I honestly think that the union, let me preface this by saying I despise when people are used. I don't hate, I dislike vehemently when one group is used against another group for somebody else's power or, you know, or anything like that. So I tend to notice that sometimes the teachers union likes to pit this, you know, the teachers against this person because this person didn't do what, what you wanted or what we want them to do for you. And then when they have somebody that they like there, they don't talk about that issue. It's just sort of, they don't even discuss it at all. So it's not even, that's not a problem anymore, you know, so. And I think that happens all over in politics, obviously, it's not just teachers. And, and, you know, I would be probably the biggest proponent of teachers teaching well and having the freedom to do what they need to do and getting paid well. But I think that sometimes, you know, with any group, you get, you get sucked into being on a tree on a team where you have to, you know, I'm gonna, I'm on this team because I don't like them or I'm on that team because I don't like them. And they did this to me. And they did that to me. And then you have, in the middle, the puppet master are putting you back and forth towards each other. And that, to me, is very disturbing.

[26:08] JOANIE SCHIRM: Yeah. And that's happening in so many areas in America today and very disturbing, I think, you know, I've always felt my husband actually spent of his almost 50 year career, he spent 20 of it in government and the rest as a private consultant. He's a planner, urban planner by degree, and transportation expert and all of that, but also very wise in finance. Well, two of his, his big jobs in that 20 year where he was the county administrator for two of the largest counties in central Florida. And what I always observed, number one, it was, you know, finance is a big deal in government. And it's not like the private sector where you can decide to put out a new product and get a whole bunch of money to pay for this other part of your business. You know, you have a set revenue that you have to work with, so you have to be wise and you have to figure out how to partner with other people. So in his days, there was a lot of partnership between local governments, state governments, and the federal government. That was how you put together something that could be bigger and better for your populace. And it worked. Now you have governments almost at war with each other on both sides. All of it not looking at what his other strength was, was problem solving. And that's the kind of person and human that he is. And I think that it was like, times changed because where you did want to have a relationship that grew to something better for everybody, now it's kind of like you're describing with, and I don't know the teacher union situation at all, so I can't really comment on it. But what you were describing is kind of like you decide you're going to pit people against each other to get something done, and then it becomes who's more powerful, who's more control and who can punish the other. And that's where we are in so many ways of our lives on so many. And so it's kind of like, that's why I love this idea of this program where we try to find our commonalities. And I think you and I have a lot, and we may disagree on some things, but that's okay. It's just kind of how do we get to that place where in this regard, how our governments all work together for the greater good? Where is the compromise? Where is the discussion of how we get to decisions on important, critical issues that are affecting us all? So forever we've talked about teachers salaries. You know, we're done. I mean, we don't want, we don't need to talk anymore. It's like, where should we be? How do we get there and put the money towards it? And that's a choice. And like, like I was saying, I think the good part of in my husband's career is there were opportunities to really look at different ways. So now it used to be you passed, counties could pass a greater tax, which they have done, like in Orange county, for schools to use in certain ways. Well, the certain ways get very, very whittled down from the top up in government. And so you end up with, if you wanted your county to have higher salaries paid by all of us who choose, who vote and say, let's do this, you can't do it. And I, you know, I understand that you could then end up with the haves and have nots throughout the state and everything, but there has to be a way to look at that whole and say, you know, we as a community with, you know, millions of people in central Florida ought to be able to decide what we want to do in some critical areas, and it's being taken away from us.

[29:42] ELISE ROLENC: Yeah, I feel like our voice generally is taken away from us on a whole in most everything nowadays. And I think that, I think that we're at fault for it, though, because we basically have given up most, maybe not you particularly, but I think most people have sort of not really focused on local issues, local, local politics, local, like schools, those kind of things. And they just sort of, which, which maybe it's a perfect storm because people are just trying to live their lives and put food on the table and, you know, but, you know, it's, I think it's been a very eye opening experience to see that it is, it does come down to the fact that it's local. We need to start talking to each other in person rather than fighting with each other on the Internet. You know, I'm the generation that we, you know, right now, everybody's on the Internet, everybody's on social media. And unfortunately, one of the reasons why I wanted to do this, or I really was drawn to this, this conversation was the fact that it's talking to an actual human being where you can disagree or have great agreement. And most of the time, you probably find you do have more agreement than disagreement. And I'm of the firm belief that we are energy beings. We are people here to be with each other and connect with each other, and we each have a story and we lose that when we go through social media and you find that the humanity of it is just destroyed. We feel like people can be mean and, and just walk away. And I think, unfortunately, that's starting to feed over into our youth, where they feel like everything is just a throwaway. I don't have to have any consequence for anything. I can just say whatever I want and everybody should respect it. And if they don't, then I don't need to talk to them. They're horrible people. And I think that that is very damaging what we're doing to them. And I'm so thankful for this opportunity to have to chat with you today, because we each have wisdom, right? We each have wisdom experiences, and it's important to share them.

[32:07] JOANIE SCHIRM: My mother used to say that in the word silent is listen, if you rearrange the letters, and I've always thought that was really great, because I think if you're silent for a while and I listen to what you're saying, you know, I'm going to find something that we're agreeing on. I'm going to find some action that we can get together and make happen. So I agree with you. And I do feel like if we do it on a local level and just whittle down the topics, don't try. There's so many problems that we could all try and fix, and we're not going to be able to do it. So, you know, pick three, and let's then celebrate when we're done doing that. So I am appreciative of one small step today to make that happen. It's nice to see you. Yeah.

[32:48] ELISE ROLENC: And we all. I think this is one of the things that's great about this is we all recognize that. We probably all recognize that the problems are all the same. It's just, how do we go about solving them? How do we go about making it right, per se for everybody? And can we. I mean, you know, for me, personal responsibility is number one. I think that people need to make sure that they are taking care of themselves so that way they can take care of others. And that's why I'm really drawn to the health and fitness industry. I think it's very important that people not only take the time as far as nutrition and exercise, but also sit back and have the ability to listen without wanting to talk and continually react. We need to really be able to internalize the things that we're hearing and separate them from ourselves in order to have a nice dialogue with somebody without taking everything personally.

[33:52] JOANIE SCHIRM: Right, right. We need more avenues to do that in our own communities, really.

[33:58] ELISE ROLENC: Yeah. So maybe this would be great to take this local.

[34:01] JOANIE SCHIRM: Yeah, that's right.

[34:03] ELISE ROLENC: Rather than just national.

[34:05] JOANIE SCHIRM: So. So how is your life unfolding as you would see it now, as you go forward with what we're talking about? What would you think about getting more engaged? You might make a good school board member, I'd say.

[34:23] ELISE ROLENC: I've actually thought about it. I've actually thought about it. And every time I think about it, my husband and I discuss moving. So then I think, oh, well, that's probably not the school board that I should run for, so.

[34:36] JOANIE SCHIRM: Right. Oh, gosh, don't move.

[34:39] ELISE ROLENC: Yeah, we've talked about, you know, we've talked about everything. We're very, you know, interested in things that are going on, of course, with our children being in the age that they are, and then one who is at a service academy, you know, we are very in tune, I believe, to the things that are happening in the world. Very unnerved by it. To being a mom. It's such a weird experience being a spouse in the military and then changing that role to being a mom of a military personnel. Spouse is so different. Mom is incredibly hard, you know, I mean, he's obviously not active duty or anything right now, but in three years he will be. And I do worry about where we are at that time. I worry about his safety. I worry about he's the type of kid that he wants to help. He wants to serve. He wants to make things better for everyone. And, you know, it's a very unnerving thing for me to think about. But I just believe that God will watch over him. And I am constantly sending him beautiful energy and hoping and praying that not only him, but also those that are going to serve with him on are, you know, safe and make right choices. Right. I mean, there may come a time when they're given a command and it's not the right one, and they need to make a choice at that time, and that's a tough one to deal with when you're active duty militarians.

[36:16] JOANIE SCHIRM: Right. I feel for you. That's a really, that's a really difficult issue. I do think I'm a huge believer that most of our money ought to go to diplomacy in the world, and then we wouldn't have to be saying that we won't send all the money, you know, for war. For war. I'm a peace nick from the sixties. I have to another way through. And I, and I am so appreciative, though, that people like your son still choose to go in the military and protect democracy here and abroad. I mean, that's like wonderful, and that's something we have to be appreciative always of. But I sure wish we could do it through a diplomacy. And I don't think, looking at the situation today, I'm not sure that ever could have worked. So I'm a realist, too, that, you know, here we are. I don't know where it goes, but.

[37:06] ELISE ROLENC: Well, you know, it's interesting being, having, my husband had been active duty for many years, you know, 20 years served, not all active duty, but 20 years served. And we look back and we were five years married, I think five, or anyway, 911 happened. And, you know, we were all in, all in about that. And we look back at that now, we have a very different view about all of that and we notice the same drums being beat at this time. And what did that serve me? My husband flew c, that's that big plane that rescued everybody from, from Afghanistan. And I can't tell you how he felt after that happened. And he said to me, turned to me, he said, do you know how many dead bodies I brought back in that plane? And all for what? For nothing. And so, you know, it was a very devastating thing for him and his, you know, fellow servicemen to have to go through to think, why did we do that? What was that all for? And, you know, some of them still struggle with that right now. And like I said, we hear the same words being said now that we heard back then. And we have to pause and question and say, wait a minute, there's another way.

[38:31] JOANIE SCHIRM: Right.

[38:32] ELISE ROLENC: And let's hope we find it. And I don't know if I have too much, you know, positive thoughts for that. Only because there's a lot of money to be made in war.

[38:45] JOANIE SCHIRM: Right. Well, I think I was sitting in the first protest at Florida State University against Vietnam.

[38:53] ELISE ROLENC: So you knew in the beginning.

[38:57] JOANIE SCHIRM: Well, it was well into it, but it was true that we weren't getting truths about it, and that was what was so disturbing and that what's, you know, every war you think of since then has had an element of that that we look back on. And so, you know, we need to learn from that better than we are. And I don't know. So we will see. I guess we'll, we'll know, you know, in the next two years what we learned from what's going on right now.

[39:24] ELISE ROLENC: And, and with that, do we, when will we, will we ever know the truth?

[39:28] JOANIE SCHIRM: Right. I don't know. Now maybe not the real truth. I think, you know, that is what we all seek in everything that we're doing, and hopefully we learn along the way.

[39:40] ELISE ROLENC: Yeah. Yeah. I agree.

[39:43] JOANIE SCHIRM: It's been great to get to know you and definitely, I hope our paths cross.

[39:48] ELISE ROLENC: We don't live too far away from each other.

[39:50] JOANIE SCHIRM: Well, I know that's pretty miraculous, and I'm glad that it was that way because we can understand issues in a richer manner, I guess.

[39:59] ELISE ROLENC: Well, I look, and I look forward to, what is the name of your book?

[40:03] JOANIE SCHIRM: I've written three, but I would recommend my dear boy, because that's my father's story in depth. And so you'll really get a feel for it and get to meet my mom, too. And, you know, it's an uplifting, it's difficult in some ways, but it's also very uplifting.

[40:20] ELISE ROLENC: What a great tribute. What a great tribute. Yeah.

[40:22] JOANIE SCHIRM: Thank you very much. I appreciate it.

[40:24] ELISE ROLENC: If you had, let me ask you real quick before we go, I've always wanted to write a book. I just never am not sure what to write about. What would you, what's an advice that you would give for somebody?

[40:35] JOANIE SCHIRM: Well, what gets your passion going? What makes your blood, you know, pressure go up or what is something that you're really excited about? So in your health path, you know, what are the things maybe that you've done that you think made a difference? And, you know, it's, it's kind of, I always think, I read a lot of advice books from people's experience that makes life better and everything so, you know, you, you're doing something that's special and changing lives. So, you know, maybe that's what you pick. And, and I always tell people, start out small, just write a story about something, you know, that's what your subject is, and just start writing because that's when it starts flowing. I'm writing my mother's story right now, totally different story. China, born in China of american missionaries, that kind of thing. And I'm, and it took me a long time now, two years, thinking how I'm going to write it. I won't give you my secret away. Well, how am I writing? But I found it. It came to me, and now all of a sudden I can write. So I think that's what I say, get going, get started, and you'll find it perfect.

[41:38] ELISE ROLENC: Thank you.