Joanne Hurt and Tammy Mann

[00:03] JOANNE HURT: I'm Joanne Hurt and I am 55 years old. And today is December 7, 2020, and I'm in Washington, D.C. and I am with Tammy Mann. Tammy and I are partners in a grant that we have a project that we're working on and we're also colleagues in the field of early childhood education and before and after school programs.

[00:32] TAMMY MANN: And I am Tammy mann. I am 56 years of age and today is December 7, 2020, and I am in Fairfax, Virginia, and I am here with Joanne Hurt, a colleague of mine. We work together in early care and education issues here in the D.C. metro area.

[00:59] JOANNE HURT: So, Tammy, I guess there's so much that we could talk about, but I guess we should talk initially about how we met. Even though it was, I guess, four years ago now, it feels like we've known each other longer than that in some ways. So do you remember when we first started connecting around the project, the Equity and Early Learning Initiative?

[01:29] TAMMY MANN: Yes. I remember Lindsey, a colleague in common that we both know who heads up an organization, School Readiness Consulting, being very excited about the opportunity to create energy in the region around how early childhood programs are addressing issues of race equity in our organizations and the work that we do with young children. And I remember being very energized about the possibility of working together, even though I know that work is really, really hard. But it was energizing thinking about having a chance to connect with others in the region who of like minds and wanting to make progress in this area.

[02:20] JOANNE HURT: Yeah, it was. Well, I remember because I think at the time you were the chair of the board of the national association for the Education of Young Children. So it was sort of like meeting a rock star when we first met. And I was so excited that you wanted to partner in the project because is just such important work to make sure that children are in early learning environments where they feel like their identity development is being supported in multiple ways. And you know, the project that we are doing that looks at teaching and learning and leadership of programs and family engagement is it's such a great approach to it because it makes it more holistic. And I think one of the things we've learned is, especially with working with our educators in our classrooms, that this work needs to be integrated into everything that we do. It's not just an add on to other parts of the curriculum, that it is really, you know, who a child is and how a child identifies as really the center of all curriculum in a lot of ways.

[03:39] TAMMY MANN: Indeed. And while, you know, in some ways I feel like the work has been a part of my professional journey well beyond the years I've spent at Campagna The truth of the matter is, no matter where you go, this work is always going to exist in and in phases that may make you feel like you're at the beginning again, because it's an organization that's not. Spends a lot of time thinking about these issues in quite the way that we're speaking. And so it's just. It is at the core, I think, of what it means to value and affirm those characteristics of children that make them who they are. Right. From a racial perspective, all of that. And so it's been quite the journey. And I can't believe four years. Four years has seemingly flown by in terms of that start.

[04:51] JOANNE HURT: And I think, too, about just the, you know, not only are we simultaneously working on creating ways for. To be supporting children, but also supporting, you know, our early childhood teachers, because for many people, this is a new journey for them, like a framing, you know, early childhood education in this lens and really creating an environment where teachers are able to have hard conversations and reflect. And a lot of it is sort of what people are bringing themselves to the work. And these conversations don't always happen, certainly, as teachers are preparing for this work too.

[05:43] TAMMY MANN: For sure. For sure. And think about how Covid and the moment we're living has, you know, in a lot of ways, just created an enormous opening for accelerating the commitment to be in tune with how the ideas we have about who the children are that we're supporting and their experiences. And I just. I feel like, in a lot of ways, the weight of living this work has just been a part of my lived experience, because as a black woman, it's hard not to be aware of that reality. And I feel like in so many ways, what we're faced with, in terms of the pandemic and all that it's unearthed around who's more affected by this from a negative perspective. It's just. It's really been interesting to be doing that work in this moment and have something like that catapult certainly you and the board, my board, into seeing this in ways that, again, has been very, very important.

[07:18] JOANNE HURT: Right. Because when the pandemic. When you think about all the early conversations around the pandemic and some of the trends that I think people now are kind of the almost talking points that people are used to of, like, essential workers and who's most at risk in terms of having really negative impact of the COVID And as we, as an organization and as a field we're recognizing how we already knew things were fragile, but when Covid hit and programs had to shut down and then could we get our teachers to come back into the classroom and you know, this big question about could we keep our classroom safe in terms of mitigation? So having all of those conversations were really hard because people were afraid. And then as we're preparing to open up the summer, then the racial justice movement that took to the streets was just a whole other compounding of just like so much going on. And I think because of the workforce in early care and education as predominantly women of color and it just the vulnerabilities and the trauma that had been relived in some ways, you know, we had a lot. I had to make sure I was creating time to just have conversations and let people talk because there was. It just was so intense and I don't know, it's still, it's still a struggle because I can, you know, when we have our staff meetings and people are masked and we're on zoom, you can still see in people's eyes that there's a lot of worry and anxiety.

[09:35] TAMMY MANN: That's right. That's right. And it's coupled with, you know, on the one hand, there is concern for personal health and safety and then there's this dynamic of, but I want to be able to work, I need to be able to work. And the tension between, you know, those two pulls, it's not easy for people to navigate. And for sure, the responsibility that I think we have as individuals charged with running organizations is to be in touch with that and to create space for that. And in some ways, the opportunity that we will have with this next level of work tied to the original initiative that got us involved, the Early Learning Equity Initiative, we're going to be able to bring to bear some added supports as our staff move through this moment.

[10:44] JOANNE HURT: Right. Yeah.

[10:47] TAMMY MANN: That's really meaningful. And the idea that there are investors, foundations that are interested in recognizing the need for those kinds of support and willing to see resources be put to bear behind it. It's important.

[11:05] JOANNE HURT: Right. Because if teachers are stressed and anxious and it's a hard. This work is hard. Under normal circumstances, you have to really be able to be fully present with the children. And so with the added stress and anxiety, that means that can erode the relationships that are so important in the classroom. And so by having this focus on mental health and well being, I think is such an important recognition of not only just the core of the work that we do, because it is all about relationships, but the important moment in time that we're in, in sort of the reality of how all of these external factors are impacting what's happening in our classrooms. Because the kids, you know, pick up on the anxiety, and that can be, you know, challenging behaviors, can be really tough in a lot of ways. It's just a cycle. So being able to really address what teachers need, I think is so important. And yes, and then I think the broader question of, you know, we're recognizing what teachers need, and it's becoming more and more apparent and certainly can see it in the news that what families need in terms of child care, that it's really should not be up to individual families to have to figure out what they need in order to work. And now I think there is sort of a national acknowledgement that childcare is not only really important for building children's brains and getting children ready for kindergarten, but it is an economic engine. It is how families are able to work. And if there is possibly a silver lining, that maybe we'll get public investment in early care and education and before and after school programs in ways that, you know, the workforce isn't subsidizing the field anymore.

[13:33] TAMMY MANN: Right. Well, and the whole concept, you know, some people don't even really realize what it means to think about the workforce subsidizing the field. But in fact, when you look at the kinds of supports that are in place to actually help ensure that families have access to this, we know, we know those supports are inadequate. That there is a basis upon which we can and should be growing, how we're providing support when it, you know, when it. When a family has to effectively pay college tuition on the front end of a child's life in order for families to be able to participate in the workforce and taking care of themselves is. It's a. It's a. It's a tough proposition. And that we have not. We have not had the will to look at that for what it is and to find ways to lessen that burden for families is very problematic. And I agree. I believe the pandemic has certainly made apparent that when that sector is not operational, there are going to be repercussions that we feel from an economic perspective. And maybe that will be the thing that triggers policymakers, certainly at the federal level, a lot of supports come through that channel to reevaluate the systems that we have in place to help families manage through that.

[15:13] JOANNE HURT: Yeah. And I hope, too, that the value of this work is fully recognized, because I think it's been viewed as women's work. It's been viewed as the responsibility of moms to, you know, fine, to figure out what they're going to do while they're working. And I think because of, because of where we are right now, we're seeing it in terms of the labor market and the impact it's having on working moms. And it's, you know, I think I heard someone say that the gains, the economic gains, workforce or workplace gains of working moms of a generation is potentially being lost right now. And that's staggering.

[16:05] TAMMY MANN: Yes. Especially when you consider the fact that wages over time have not kept pace for many families. There's been some progress for a select few, but you know, by and large wages for most middle income families, it's been stagnant and people have had to take on working two and three jobs just to keep up. So yeah, there's, there's, there's a lot that we need to use this moment to help challenge us at reshaping when we think about coming out on the other side of this.

[16:47] JOANNE HURT: Yeah. So on these, on these days where you can take a moment to sort of think about the work, you know, what is it that I guess that sort of brings you joy or makes you feel hopeful about the future?

[17:10] TAMMY MANN: You know, on some levels I just have to be honest and say absent being hopeful, it would be very difficult to do the work. And so just the idea of believing that things can be better, the act of being willing to be hopeful for me is essential because the reverse or the flip side of it makes it really can, can be very debilitating to think about. Right, right. We had this weekend an opportunity. We had about four hundred and fifty families that we served this Saturday providing a range of supports, grocery gift cards and books, a toy stocking stuffer for children. And you know, as I talk with families that came out this Saturday, I am always inspired when I hear families talk about how much it means to have access to the things they need and that there are places in the community where people are willing to show up and be present and provide supports despite all that we're contending with. From a public health perspective, of course, those conversations are always, they're uplifting. But for me, I like to think the act of just being resolved to remain hopeful that it can be better has got me through a good many days when it's been hard.

[18:50] JOANNE HURT: Right, right. And I think there is a certain amount of resolve to be hopeful and resolve to, I think, lead by example and because if we're not hopeful. It's really hard for the staff that we work with to be feeling hopeful. And I feel like we need to find those moments and really be encouraging because things are. It is challenging. You know, we are. Our programs are operating at like, a fraction of what they were before because of COVID And so we're leave about 10% of the families that we used to serve this time last year. And our tuition revenue is down about 80%, but our. Our personnel costs are down just 40% because of the ratios that we have to maintain and that we need to maintain. And our staff know this. And, you know, we've already been through layoffs earlier on, and I know people are worried. You know, they're worried about not only their. On health, but their economic security for their families and for themselves. And so just, you know, I think what I have found is being really. In addition to being hopeful, it's just being as transparent as possible and, you know, communicating in timely ways and just being honest with people. You know, I say oftentimes when we're having tough conversations and I, you know, about policies and procedures and stuff, and I'm like, you know, we. We are operating in a pandemic like that, but there's no way around it. And so we have to be able to manage to the best of our ability the things that we have control over. Because otherwise there are so many things that are out of our control that can really make us, I think, feel somewhat hopeless. So that really, for me, keeping my focus on what I actually have control over has been helpful. It's a lot.

[21:32] TAMMY MANN: Yeah, no, I agree with that very much. And just when you said transparent, you know, and being honest, I do believe that when we are able to communicate in those ways with people that we employ, it makes a huge difference. Because, like you, we've had to execute a furlough. And, you know, that's never an easy. That's not an easy act.

[22:14] JOANNE HURT: Yeah.

[22:14] TAMMY MANN: Because you know, the impact that it's going to have. And as I. As I look back and, man, it's been nine, ten months. It's hard to believe.

[22:28] JOANNE HURT: Yeah.

[22:29] TAMMY MANN: But for sure, in cases where we've had to make those hard calls to have, you know, members of our team come back, and I did, I've had a few people come back and just want to physically embrace and say, hey, I know this was really, really hard, but we appreciate everything that was done, how it was done. Just the manner in which you step through these experiences with, you know, people that have been a part of your organization, it matters a lot as you're, as you're, as you're having to make these decisions. So honesty and transparency, people really value and appreciate that.

[23:14] JOANNE HURT: Yeah, yeah, I think that's true because it does kind of create an opportunity to really reassess and affirm what our core values are, you know, as, as an organization, as colleagues, as, you know, partnerships with families. You really have to kind of cut through a lot in order to make sure because there's no time, you know, you have to really kind of be, I think, focused on what's most important because everyone is at kind of, they can only manage so much. So it is.

[23:58] TAMMY MANN: Well, Joanne, I wonder what you. I mean, we've been having conversations about, you know, as word of vaccines, you know, come on the scenes, you know, there's interesting conversation about what that will mean in terms of the expectation that staff are, participate in this and just, you know, if there are other things that you're doing, doing during this time that you feel like were it not for this experience, you might not have realized that this is something we should definitely look at trying to maintain because it's been so. It's been, it's been effective in a way that we would not have known were it not for having to shift how we engage and how we work. And so I'm wondering if, I'm wondering what's come up for you as you're thinking about that.

[24:55] JOANNE HURT: Yeah, so a couple of different things. Like, one of the things that I have realized is really important is being able to delegate a little bit more and share the responsibility and the ownership for certain aspects of, you know, just even like our policies around health and safety, like what we're doing and what we're communicating to our families. And so just, and even, you know, who's, who's just details about, like who's even making the call to the health department if we have, you know, suspected exposure within the community. And so having more people take ownership of different aspects of sort of keeping us all whole in some ways has been helpful. And in terms of the, you know, I have started to talk about vaccines. I've been talking about flu shot and just making sure that people are getting the flu shot even if, or at least talking to their healthcare provider about it, because if they haven't done it in the past and I think the vaccine piece and who's going to be getting it first and who's going to be willing to get it, because I do think there, within our community there is going to be some skepticism because of the legacy around healthcare and experiments within the African American community in this country. I do think that's real and it has to be attended to in ways that sort of going back to that emotional aspect of it and anxiety around that and also just the legacies. So have you started to talk about vaccines with your staff?

[27:20] TAMMY MANN: I haven't started to talk about it with the staff, but it's it now that word of it is coming, it's percolating and I think because of the nature of the work that we do. I mean, one thing that I am, I'm curious about is will there be broader policy moves that require vaccines to be taken? I wonder about that and what that would mean if that were to happen.

[28:02] JOANNE HURT: I agree. Because as it is in our field, teachers need to have medical exams and.

[28:15] TAMMY MANN: TB tests is a required test that one has to take.

[28:20] JOANNE HURT: Right. And we know that our workforce is aging and there's not a great pipeline. So it does. So, you know, because of the pandemic, there are already people who have left the workforce. If people are feeling, you know, that they do not. If, for instance, it is, you know, you have to have a vaccine in order to work in classrooms and people don't want that, then will that be another exodus from this field? And who is coming up through the pipeline to enter this field because it's such a low pain field and it's not recognized for the value that it does actually bring to children's, you know, lifelong learning? You know, I do see that there will be, you know, like one of many crises on top of crises.

[29:31] TAMMY MANN: Well, and I think the question of how will we, we should probably anticipate the likelihood that it's going to happen. And then the questions become, how will we be prepared to respond? I mean, there's organizational response, but there's also a broader response because these things, they can have repercussions for the capacity that exists in a community to provide these services. And so I am thinking on the other side of the new year, this becomes yet another piece to factor into the problem solving that we have to contend with around operating through a pandemic. You know, early on it was trying to figure out the different phases of opening and, you know, what's the financial model to support your ability to do that without completely going under. There was all the work around that, and we're not completely, you know, out of that mode. But certainly as, as the opportunity for vaccines come on the scene, and then there's the response of people, perhaps Buying in or not, you know, how can we sort of get ahead of that and think about what it would take to not sort of be caught in a bad spot with that? And I mean, more so what's the field thinking about that writ large? I also think that one of the things we've learned or we're learning, continuing to learn. I know you're doing a measure of in person and at one point you were doing some virtual work and we're doing in person and we're also doing some virtual work because we also had other. We were doing a home visiting program. And so. But what's been interesting is this idea that there are some dimensions of parent engagement that feel very different and feel very powerful through these contacts that are with parent and child together and teacher together that we often don't have the opportunity to do in the course of a full day as people are dropping off, picking up and you know, the hustle and bustle of getting in, getting out and being on time, you know, for work and all of that. And it has been interesting to see bridges being built, homeschool connection in ways that I think technology has been afforded that we're going to be putting our heads together to think about what elements of that do we want to maintain? Because that's been pretty powerful to see.

[32:16] JOANNE HURT: Yeah, yeah, definitely. And I think that's will need to be some new sort of visioning for the field. And I think having parents voices elevated as a result of this would be really important too. And I think that could go hand in hand with getting some traction around public investment, you know, because of this recognition that early care and education is really a public good. And so that could just really change the whole landscape of what people view as, you know, children's education, that it really does start at birth and prenatal, actually. So that's sort of an exciting moment. And yeah, so I think. And also like the pediatrics, I think too there's been this interesting that's been building this connection between early childhood education and pediatrics and what quality early learning looks like and you know, using more of that field to help educate parents about early childhood programs and high quality programs. But I see more intersections, I guess because of COVID So I think a general greater understanding and acknowledgement about the importance of early care and education in terms of children's growth and development and just the developing brain and how it is like what happens in these first three years of life really does have a significant impact on the rest of their entire lives. So throughout all of this. What have you found to be helpful to you to kind of decompress and take care of yourself?

[34:40] TAMMY MANN: So I took up bike riding. I've been doing some walking early on and you know, after a while I needed something a bit more active. So I have definitely found it's cold now. So I'm looking at my bike sitting over there on the other side of the door, you know, unable to. And I'm not a. I, you know, cycling in place. I don't, I don't have the resources to be doing that here. But, but bike riding was just, There was just such great joy in being able to just get out there and get going, get moving and ride for, you know, an hour, hour and a half, two hours. I loved that. Yeah, it's getting cold outside so I don't know, gotta something else to get through to winter. I don't know what it's going to be, but that was a huge help. This fall I go into the office every day and so I still have a measure of rhythm about my getting out of the house. But to shut it all off, you just. I need something, I need something. What about for you?

[35:58] JOANNE HURT: Yeah, this summer we got paddle boards and so going. We went out on the Anacostia river and was great and it was hard, you know, it was something new. But it was just getting outside and being on the water was really relaxing. And I think one of the things that I found early on, you know, taking walks was good. But early on in the, you know, last spring I would have to, I would take walks down to the National Mall because I just needed to be able to see wide open space. Like my world. It was so focused on the computer screen that I needed to just have sort of a different point of focus. And so I think being on the river also helps with that too because you're sort of looking, you know where you're going. So again, like you now that it's cold on a paddle board, but walking definitely is still good and it is nice to be able to. From, you know, my house, I can pretty easily get to different places downtown that are just, you know, nice and open, so.

[37:19] TAMMY MANN: Oh, that's good. Yeah, that's very good.

[37:23] JOANNE HURT: Yeah. Well, I've really enjoyed our conversation. I feel, I feel fortunate that we've been able to have this time to just talk, you know, about what it's been like for the past nine months because it really has been unbelievable.

[37:42] TAMMY MANN: Yes, likewise. I was really delighted to have been invited to have the conversation and it is always good. These kind of moments, too, contribute to what it takes to get through this. Right. Being able to talk about what's working and where we're. Where we're finding challenges into here, how other people are sort of moving along through it. It's. That's all, like, the sum total of how we get through, how we get through it.

[38:12] JOANNE HURT: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. It's been. I'm. I've been glad to have you as somebody that I could connect with over these months.

[38:24] TAMMY MANN: Likewise. Likewise. Thank you.