John Plageman and Kathleen Plageman

[00:03] JOHN PLAGEMAN: My name is John Plagman. I am 51 years old, and today's date is August 12, 2023. We are in Green Bay, Wisconsin. I am interviewing Kathleen Plagman, who is my mother.

[00:20] KATHLEEN PLAGEMAN: My name is Kathleen Plagman, age 74. Today's date is August 12, 2023. Location is Green Bay, Wisconsin. I am interviewing John and he is my son.

[00:36] JOHN PLAGEMAN: There we go. So kind of the purpose of doing this is for my children, your grandchildren, Jaden and Dylan. So they have a kind of a record of our voices at the time when it comes, when we pass on. But I also wanted to do this to kind of inform people of the culture of Wisconsin. Because, as you know, you and I have lived in the state for a long period of time. Why don't. Could you start with your. Where you were born, kind of where you went to, and then how did you end up in Green Bay? Kind of go over that real quick.

[01:17] KATHLEEN PLAGEMAN: Okay. I was born in Green Bay, Wisconsin, in 1948. And we lived here until I was about five. I did not go to school here, so it was before school started. And I moved to Horicon with my parents and four other brothers and sisters. My youngest of the six was born in Beaver Dam, so she was not born in Green Bay. The rest of us were all born in Green Bay. And we came back to Green Bay because our son and his wife asked us if we would move here. We were in fond du Lac at the time, my husband and I. And we moved to Green Bay about eight years ago. And we've seen our grandchildren. We wanted to be here before. Our first grandchild, Jayden, was a year old. And we got here on February 20, my mother's birthday. And she was born March 6. So we celebrated her first birthday. And then Dylan was born two years after that. And we've been in Green Bay ever since.

[02:29] JOHN PLAGEMAN: So would you say that the time difference between you being born in Green Bay and then you coming back to Green Bay would be about 50, 60 years?

[02:40] KATHLEEN PLAGEMAN: No, we've only been here about eight years. No. Maybe. Yes. Yes, 60 years. I would say 60.

[02:46] JOHN PLAGEMAN: What was it like growing up in Horicon? And how big was the town?

[02:51] KATHLEEN PLAGEMAN: The town was 3500 people. Growing up was just wonderful because it was small and it had everything we needed. Grocery stores, movie theater, drugstores, restaurants, small restaurants. And I. We had ice skating, we had bargaining, we had swimming. We had a swimming pool with swimming lessons. And so. And then next, you know, there were small towns all around us, so we got to go there too.

[03:23] JOHN PLAGEMAN: What was the deciding factor of moving out of Horicon.

[03:29] KATHLEEN PLAGEMAN: To go to West Bend, where we moved to Washington. My husband lost his job, and we were. And he was there at John Deere for nine years, and then we moved to West Bend. And that's. Our daughter was four, and our son, that was you, was two.

[03:49] JOHN PLAGEMAN: How did you meet my father?

[03:53] KATHLEEN PLAGEMAN: It's a cute story. I was in high school, and one of my brothers, younger, was a best friend of one of my husband's brothers, and he was looking for a date, and he said to do you know anybody? And John says, well, why don't you ask my sister Kathy? So he called me and he said, would you like to go out to a basketball game? He was playing basketball at city basketball because he is seven years older than I am. And I said, sure. And we went out and went to the city basketball, and I was 18 at a time because I know exactly what date it was, February 25. And we went. After we went to the city basketball game, we went to the a and w, and then we went to the quarter mile.

[04:48] JOHN PLAGEMAN: And where was dad coming back from?

[04:51] KATHLEEN PLAGEMAN: He was in service in Louisiana.

[04:55] JOHN PLAGEMAN: What branch?

[04:56] KATHLEEN PLAGEMAN: Army. He got drafted.

[04:59] JOHN PLAGEMAN: What war?

[05:00] KATHLEEN PLAGEMAN: Vietnam. Vietnam era. He did not go over to Vietnam, but he was engaged to a Louisiana girl. Thank God it didn't work out because, well, she. We got married in September, and she got married in October, but he didn't want to stay down in Louisiana, so he wanted to come back home, and she didn't want to come to Wisconsin because of the cold weather. So it worked out just perfectly, and I'm very happy it worked out.

[05:28] JOHN PLAGEMAN: Talk about the roots that we have here in Green Bay, and talk about Grandma Tricia and Aunt Rosemary and Papa and Mimi. Talk about that history that we have here in Green Bay.

[05:44] KATHLEEN PLAGEMAN: Well, Papa started a flooring business in his garage, and Mamie was the go getter. Mamie was the pushing for the business, and I'm sure they met in Milwaukee, I should tell you. They met in Milwaukee, and they moved to Green Bay. My mother was born in Milwaukee. My uncle Edward was born in Milwaukee, but Patrick and Mary and Rosemary and a baby that died was born in Green Bay. But let's see. Okay, we're in Green Bay, and he's in the business and a very profitable business. And Uncle Patrick told him to buy property on Military Avenue, and so he did. He bought the property, and he passed away in 1956. And six months, less than six months later, Mimi died. Mimi died first, then Papa died, and then Uncle Patrick took over the business and had to buy out his two sisters.

[06:46] JOHN PLAGEMAN: And what was the business?

[06:48] KATHLEEN PLAGEMAN: It's a flooring business. It was a flooring business.

[06:50] JOHN PLAGEMAN: The name of the businesses.

[06:51] KATHLEEN PLAGEMAN: H. J. Martin and son.

[06:52] JOHN PLAGEMAN: How did Grandma Tricia grow up in that type of society?

[06:57] KATHLEEN PLAGEMAN: I think they were upper middle class. I think she had a. I mean, I think she had a good upbringing. I know it was stricteen. Papa had polio, so he was easier on the children. I know that. And Mimi was the hard, you know, stern one, and. But they were very loving grandparents, very loving and caring. And I think that's where my mother got all the loving and caring.

[07:24] JOHN PLAGEMAN: How did Grandma Tricia meet Grandpa Bud otherwise? Francis Bellen.

[07:29] KATHLEEN PLAGEMAN: Yeah. In Madison. My dad was going to Madison and my mother was a freshman, and so.

[07:36] JOHN PLAGEMAN: They both were attending UW Madison.

[07:39] KATHLEEN PLAGEMAN: And my.

[07:40] JOHN PLAGEMAN: What year was this, do you think?

[07:42] KATHLEEN PLAGEMAN: Well, my dad graduated in 1940, so it was 1936.

[07:45] JOHN PLAGEMAN: Okay, so.

[07:46] KATHLEEN PLAGEMAN: But he was. He was a year older, so he was a sophomore.

[07:49] JOHN PLAGEMAN: Okay.

[07:50] KATHLEEN PLAGEMAN: And she was a freshman and she. She stayed at. I think it was Mary Mount.

[07:58] JOHN PLAGEMAN: Mount Mary College.

[07:59] KATHLEEN PLAGEMAN: No, no, because her residence. Her residence was Mary Mount. I think it was called that. It's still. It's still in Madison that I know of. Anyway, he had a good friend and he said, dad wanted a date. And the good friend said, well, I've got a girl for you if you want a double date. And he said, yeah. And she walked down the stairs and he said, that's the woman I'm going to marry.

[08:22] JOHN PLAGEMAN: And from my understanding, their first kiss was on Langdon Drive, which is the sorority fraternity street in. Very famous in Madison, at least that's what Grant's told me.

[08:32] KATHLEEN PLAGEMAN: And it was by the. They used to meet at the monument. The Lincoln. The Lincoln monument.

[08:37] JOHN PLAGEMAN: Yeah.

[08:38] KATHLEEN PLAGEMAN: Yeah, that's where they used to meet.

[08:39] JOHN PLAGEMAN: So what took Grandma Tricia and Grandpa Bud away from Green Bay and down to Horicon?

[08:46] KATHLEEN PLAGEMAN: Well, my dad was drinking. Drinking and not doing well in getting work. I mean, he was, because he was drinking. And I don't know how they got to Horicon, though. I know he was a reporter for the Horicon journalist. Journalist for the Horkin reporter. And I know that was his first job. And then he got fired because of the drinking. He got fired from there. And then he started at Brunswick in Beaver Dam, which now is mercury and Fond du Lac. And my mother told him, we have six children. You've got to quit the drinking. And he quit during the week and then the weekends. He drank.

[09:33] JOHN PLAGEMAN: Okay. What was it like growing up in the state of Wisconsin. And growing up in a household where alcohol was prevalent.

[09:46] KATHLEEN PLAGEMAN: Well, the state of Wisconsin was beautiful.

[09:47] JOHN PLAGEMAN: I mean, I'm talking more of the drinking culture, not just the environment.

[09:54] KATHLEEN PLAGEMAN: Well, the drinking culture was. I mean, they partied. I mean, they had parties, bridge parties, and, you know, they went out to dinner. My mother quit drinking after she had her 6th child because she said somebody had to stay sober all the time. So my mother quit drinking, and then it was. It was hard because it was scary every weekend. It was kind of scary because you didn't know how your father was gonna. If he was gonna be sober or drunk. And most of the time he was drunk. There were many times, like, he hit his head on the window seal and he said it was chocolate milk and it was blood all over the place. Yeah. And he would chase us upstairs because six kids are going to get a little wild, and he'd chase us upstairs. And one time he went after my brother Edward. My older brother and mother took the vacuum cleaner after my dad, because it's a vacuum cleaner. Yeah.

[10:51] JOHN PLAGEMAN: What would she do with the vacuum cleaner?

[10:52] KATHLEEN PLAGEMAN: She had it out because she was going to vacuum.

[10:55] JOHN PLAGEMAN: Whack him with it.

[10:56] KATHLEEN PLAGEMAN: Yes. She was going to whack him with it. Yes, she was. And she didn't, though. She just scared the hell out of him. But there were many not physical fights, but fights where he broke a vase. That was my grandmother's and her mother's. But a lot of people had drunk parties. You know, there was a lot of drinking on the weekends. Yeah.

[11:22] JOHN PLAGEMAN: So let me kind of jump in with. We're now in west Bennett. I wanted to give a timeline of our family. That's where I wanted to start to give people a little bit background. So I was born in 1972. I was lived in Horicon for two years, and then you guys moved because dad was let go of John Deere, which is the big factory in Horicon. We had, what, four generations of plaguemans, or three generations of plaguemans that worked at John Deere. We had great grandpa, grandpa, dad's brothers and sisters. Dad worked at John Deere, but he was let go, and he already had his accounting degree from UW Whitewater, and therefore he landed a job at BC Ziglar and company, which was an investments firm in downtown West Bend. So I grew up in West Bend, which was an ideal utopic neighborhood. It really was. You guys picked a great spot for Mary. And I have an older sister that's two years older to grow up in. We grew up on a cul de sac. So it was kind of like a U shaped block. And we had decora school, elementary school right behind us. And we had kids our own age where we could play pickup football, pick up baseball, and we used to play kick the can. And, you know, I just want to reminisce of how, you know, we had, we had maybe one tv. We didn't have cable then. I remember buying my first Atari in the mid seventies. I remember the first Star wars movie coming. And that was like the only time dad ever took me to the movie theater was a downtown West Bend theater.

[12:52] KATHLEEN PLAGEMAN: Cause he wouldn't go. Yeah.

[12:53] JOHN PLAGEMAN: Cause he didn't like movies. But I remember seeing et there. I remember seeing Indiana Jones there. I remember you taking me see Friday the 13th at a very young age, which I still kind of razzy about, but I do appreciate horror flicks. But growing up in West Bend, we bringing back the drinking, because that's kind of the linear thread throughout our, our lives, is whenever we would go drive to horicon, there was. There was a cooler full of beer, or there was mixed drinks being had. If we went to Port Washington and see your sister and brother in law, there was beer, there was bar and drinks. And Uncle Bruce used to drink whiskey, I think. And then when we would have people over, we would have our own little thing. But you guys didn't really drink that much.

[13:39] KATHLEEN PLAGEMAN: No.

[13:40] JOHN PLAGEMAN: Dad's softball games. My first drinking recollection was in 7th grade, even though I drank before that, but was in 7th grade. And I believe it was one of dad's ending softball tournaments or leagues at Regnier park. And they would get a quarter barrel of beer, and then we would sneak beer from there. And then when we went into high school, we would sneak beer out of people's cabinets. And then we would go to the west Bend east or west football games at Badger middle school. And we would drink there and get drunk and go to the games. And then it was kind of like a weekend thing where we would be getting drunk during the weekend. And. And then I remember being my freshman year, where my neighbor Russ had some weed. And that was the first time that I smoked weed, which was on the railroad tracks behind Decorah school with a coke can, where we popped a couple holes in the coke can. And that's when I smoked weed. And then I was trying to get through high school, which I was doing okay. I mean, in middle school, I was student council president, and I was in sports. And then high school, I was sort of in sports, but I was still involved in school because I was still involved in student council and choir.

[14:52] KATHLEEN PLAGEMAN: But. But do you remember the police officer coming over when you were a sophomore to give you your first underage drinking ticket?

[14:58] JOHN PLAGEMAN: So now we're jumping, though. We're jumping. I was going to talk about the first time that you sat up at the kitchen table with my sister and her boyfriend at the time who snitched me out when I was coming back from skateboarding with my buddies, and you found a bag of pot in my closet or something like that.

[15:15] KATHLEEN PLAGEMAN: It was. It was in your cassette tapes. You had them in the diamond. That was smart. That was smart.

[15:21] JOHN PLAGEMAN: Cassette tapes. Because what I want to do is also get, like, the aura of what we grew up with. We had cassette tapes. We didn't have streaming. We didn't have cd players even then. I remember buying my first cd. But talk about your experience with busting me on my first pot thing. And what happened after that?

[15:36] KATHLEEN PLAGEMAN: Well, that was. We went to counseling. I said, that's it. We're going to counseling. And of course, your father said, no, no, no. We don't need any counseling. And I said, oh, yes, we do. Yes, this family is getting to be nonfunctional. And Mary was all for it, but your father was not. And we went to counseling in West Bend, and I forgot it was.

[15:59] JOHN PLAGEMAN: They sent me to rehab, like, the next day.

[16:01] KATHLEEN PLAGEMAN: That was when you were a junior. That's when you were a junior. And we found marijuana again someplace in the house. I forgot. And we took you straight to.

[16:13] JOHN PLAGEMAN: I can't remember. Kettlemarine. It was kettlemarine outpatient.

[16:15] KATHLEEN PLAGEMAN: Yeah, kettlemarine.

[16:16] JOHN PLAGEMAN: And then you guys had me when I relapsed. And so kind of back up. I was. I went to rehab when I was a freshman in high school. Outpatient. And then I was sober for about a year. My sophomore year.

[16:27] KATHLEEN PLAGEMAN: Yeah.

[16:28] JOHN PLAGEMAN: And then my junior year. I'm not gonna swear, mom. I'll try not to swear too much in this, but I gave it the efforts and led that there's no way that I'm gonna stay sober for the rest of my life. I'm in high school. I'm just getting to, like.

[16:41] KATHLEEN PLAGEMAN: Is that when you had the party at the house?

[16:44] JOHN PLAGEMAN: I did wanna have some parties at the house, yes.

[16:47] KATHLEEN PLAGEMAN: It's Mary's birthday.

[16:49] JOHN PLAGEMAN: And then I went into inpatient at that time at Kettle Moraine at Oconomowoc Lake. I think it was Rogers Memorial Hospital, right?

[16:56] KATHLEEN PLAGEMAN: Yes, it was.

[16:57] JOHN PLAGEMAN: And that's where I was first introduced into the Grateful Dead.

[17:00] KATHLEEN PLAGEMAN: Okay.

[17:01] JOHN PLAGEMAN: And also, I was. I was introduced to a counselor at that time, and that's where I wanted to be a social worker, which I've been for over 25 plus years. Those two incidents from a major catastrophe, because it was. It was chaotic in our household. You and I were not like this at all right now. You were. You were crying, you were worried. You were stressed that your son is out there doing God knows what. Let's just have him stay alive. And then I was just trying to get by and get away as far as possible with you and get to college so I can move out. And that incident where you sent me to a month and inpatient was probably one of the greatest things that happened. So when I got done with there and graduated high school, then I went to UW Whitewater, which was funny because I didn't want to go to.

[17:50] KATHLEEN PLAGEMAN: You had two years in fond du Lac.

[17:52] JOHN PLAGEMAN: No, I had two years at Washington county. But we don't need to get in the weeds of the details here, mom. We're just kind of. We got to move on, okay? We have a lot more to explore here. So I went to University of Whitewater.

[18:03] KATHLEEN PLAGEMAN: Yes.

[18:03] JOHN PLAGEMAN: It took me about six to seven years to graduate. I graduated with undergraduate and social work, and then I moved to Milwaukee to work in the inner city of Milwaukee. I'm going to jump back real quick, because during that whole time where I was an active alcoholic and addict.

[18:21] KATHLEEN PLAGEMAN: Who.

[18:21] JOHN PLAGEMAN: Did you reach out to in your family for support? And the reason why? That's kind of a loaded question. Because you had Aunt Rosemary who was sober at that time?

[18:30] KATHLEEN PLAGEMAN: Yes.

[18:31] JOHN PLAGEMAN: Was she a support for you in regards to how to navigate this or where did you go to try to understand what it was like to have your child to be an alcoholic and addict?

[18:41] KATHLEEN PLAGEMAN: I remember we were in counseling when you were in high school, so I started going to Al Anon, and then I quit. When you left to go to college, and I quit for those for so many years. But later on in your life, then I went back to Al Anon. What support did I get? Well, it wasn't. Your father, you know, was in denial.

[19:05] JOHN PLAGEMAN: He wasn't a feelings guy.

[19:07] KATHLEEN PLAGEMAN: No, he's not. And we tried to get the feelings out of him, but a couple times. Yeah. Didn't. And Mary was, you know, involved with her, her life. And was there any support?

[19:22] JOHN PLAGEMAN: Natural supports? Not formal supports, what we would call in the business natural supports. Family, friends, relatives. I mean, so that's interesting because I thought Aunt Rosemary would have sent. My aunt Rosemary had over 35 years of sobriety and so let's kind of fast forward real quick. I'm in Milwaukee. I'm doing social work. I'm also bartending. I'm dealing weed. I'm doing cocaine now, and I'm just trying to not get busted at work. And now I am going into work, and I'm still semi intoxicated because my kidneys started not functioning right, and they wouldn't filter out the alcohol enough. So now I'm going into work, and people are like, dude, you smell like booze. And that was very embarrassing. I was getting tremors and shakes at the time. And then I remember my sister moving back to the Fond du Lac area after living in Ohio for many years. And I kind of asked her and her husband at the time if I could get out of Milwaukee and move up there. By the way, I was fired from my job. And so I moved up to Milwaukee, up to Fond du Lac, and in Fond du lac, it even got worse. But now I was more lonely, and I was driving down to Milwaukee drunk all the time, doing more cocaine, doing a lot of weed and hallucinogenics. And let's jump to the intervention.

[20:42] KATHLEEN PLAGEMAN: Oh, the intervention.

[20:43] JOHN PLAGEMAN: Yeah.

[20:44] KATHLEEN PLAGEMAN: Yeah. You were living in your apartment.

[20:46] JOHN PLAGEMAN: This is 2009, February 15, by the way.

[20:50] KATHLEEN PLAGEMAN: Yeah. But before that, that Friday before the 15th, I was working as a barista, and it was connected to a bank. And the gal at the bank, Carrie said, boy, I said, I need to talk to somebody about my son's drinking. She said, well, I'm a recovering alcoholic. So we sat down and talked, and she said, well, you got to do something active. And I said, well, I'll go over Friday night because I know he's drinking and if he's home, and I'll ask some police officers to come over. And so I went over by you on Friday night, and I called the police, and I said, will you please.

[21:31] JOHN PLAGEMAN: Come over my house to do, like, a wellness check?

[21:33] KATHLEEN PLAGEMAN: Yeah. Yeah. I said, my son is intoxicated and out of control. And so they came over, and we went. Came upstairs, and you said, I still remember this. Yeah. Oh, yeah. And you said, I know what I'm doing, and you can't take me into detox. And I'm a social worker, and I've got a good degree.

[21:54] JOHN PLAGEMAN: I wasn't a threat to myself or others, and I wasn't suicidal. And the police officer said, they shrugged their shoulders and said, yeah, we can't do anything.

[22:03] KATHLEEN PLAGEMAN: We went downstairs, and then Carrie also told me that there was an open meeting on Sunday, a breakfast open meeting, in Ripon. No, it wasn't.

[22:12] JOHN PLAGEMAN: Oh, this was in fond du lac. That's right. This was in fond du Lac at the Radisson hotel on Sundays.

[22:16] KATHLEEN PLAGEMAN: Yeah. And I went to, and I sat with Carrie and Mary came along with me sister and we sat down and here is gentleman that has been coming into the breeze, the coffee shop.

[22:29] JOHN PLAGEMAN: And we don't need to drop names here because we'll keep people anonymous.

[22:32] KATHLEEN PLAGEMAN: Yeah, well, I'll just say. And Jim, and Jim was there and Kerry says, I have somebody to introduce you to. And here is Jim. And I said, I know you. And he says, yeah, I know you do. And then I said, well, I like to do an intervention on my son. And I told him about all about you and he said, okay, here's my card and you talk to your husband and you see, he must go along with it. And here's Ron, who will come with me to also. So I went home and told your father that we're going to do an intervention. He said, oh, no, no, no. We're not going to do that. We're not going to do that. He's okay. Honest, he's okay. I said, he's not okay. He's dying. And so I called Jim and I said, jim, we're ready. And Jim and Ryan came over and he said, okay, everybody write a letter. I also called Peter, my cousin, to make sure, like, what are the letters supposed to say? And because he was recovering too, and, you know, who else should I invite? And he said, well, invite people who are sober. And so I invited your sister and then her husband and then myself and then your father and then Ron and Jim. And he said, yeah, write positive things down, but at the end, make sure that there is stipulation that if you do not go to go to a meeting, this is what's going to happen. And it was. I was going to just cut you off.

[24:03] JOHN PLAGEMAN: I mean, by the way, let me jump in here where the two days before that, I got an Owi outside a bar where I was trying to park my car and I was moving my jeep back about 10ft to park my car and walk home. And that's how I got a UW Owi. And I had to call dad. Dad picked me up and I was crying and I was like, you know, for about good six months to a year, I was just at home and I would get drunk and I would just cry and be depressed and lonely and call my sister and random people and played Jerry Garcia tunes. I remember that I just cranked Jerry Garcia.

[24:40] KATHLEEN PLAGEMAN: Do you remember the bottle cap?

[24:41] JOHN PLAGEMAN: Oh, yeah, bottle caps.

[24:43] KATHLEEN PLAGEMAN: No, the beer bottle caps. You'd save to find out how many. Yeah, you had a whole stack of them. But then you zoom out.

[24:50] JOHN PLAGEMAN: So let's just jump into this because we have to move forward. Is that the one thing? When. When I heard the knock. So this is Sunday. This is my first day sober. February 15, 2009. My first day sober, and I don't know what to do. I know that I have to do a wellness plan. I know at work in order to get my job, keep my job. I know I needed to start going aa. I didn't know how to do that. No. I didn't need a stereotherapist because I had a driver's safety plan. So I'm gonna jump through the hoops. And when I heard that knock, I think was around 05:30 p.m. i knew that it was you. I know, exactly.

[25:24] KATHLEEN PLAGEMAN: And you were waiting for it. You said you were waiting for intervention.

[25:27] JOHN PLAGEMAN: Because there was a relief and such anxiety. And when you guys came up, I wasn't really fighting at that time. I wasn't mister super attorney that I would like to get.

[25:35] KATHLEEN PLAGEMAN: Oh, you would. Detox.

[25:36] JOHN PLAGEMAN: But what Jim Cohen. Jim said to me that I still remember is, cut the fucking shit. And when he said the f bomb in front of you, I knew it was serious. And then I asked him, well, what's the next steps? And he's like, you're going to go to a meeting. I said, well, when? He said, I can go right now.

[25:51] KATHLEEN PLAGEMAN: And Ron said, tonight.

[25:52] JOHN PLAGEMAN: And I said, can I smoke a cigarette? He said, you can smoke too. And so then I smoked a cigarette, and I've been 14 years sober ever since. So where I'm going with that is in our culture, in our family history, we have alcoholism and drug addiction that intertwines through almost all aspects of both your side and dad's side.

[26:14] KATHLEEN PLAGEMAN: Yes.

[26:14] JOHN PLAGEMAN: And it kind of skipped you, and it jumped into me. And my biggest fear for Dylan and Jaden is that they get that.

[26:26] KATHLEEN PLAGEMAN: It's hell to go through, John It's hell to go through.

[26:29] JOHN PLAGEMAN: But the one thing that is horrible is the opium epidemic that we're having right now, and the fentanyl and that my kids are going to experiment with some type of drug, and it's gonna be laced with fentanyl and they're gonna OD and die when they didn't even mean to do that. That's my biggest fear. There's a movie called baby boy, and I can barely watch it. I wanna watch it with Dylan sometime. And it's about Steve Carells, I think, and the dude from Dune can't remember. A great actor, but it's about how his son, it turns out to be a heroin addict, and watch him go through. I don't know if I could see my children to go through. So that's another reason why we wanted to do this. So I'm sober. I'm in fond du lac. I am now going to about four AA meetings a week. You're going to Al Anon. You're doing couples things with dad. There was an Al Anon, a meeting in fond du Lac. That was wonderful. I met my wife at the time. She lived up in Green Bay. I moved up to Green Bay because a social worker is like a bartender. I always say that, you know, so you can get a job anywhere. So I moved up here, and now I'm at the aging and disability resource center, where I've been there for ten years. We had two wonderful children. And I encourage you and dad to move up here to be closer to them. And then our marriage didn't work, which is okay, because we are wonderful co parents, even though we're. We weren't meant to be forever. I give you and dad credit because you've been married for 63.

[27:57] KATHLEEN PLAGEMAN: No, 55 years next week.

[27:59] JOHN PLAGEMAN: Okay, my bad. I. Wait. Jump. Way ahead.

[28:01] KATHLEEN PLAGEMAN: Yeah.

[28:01] JOHN PLAGEMAN: I was thinking of a person. Nope. Nope. I was thinking of a person. I. Sorry. I was thinking of a person. I just met with that at 63. My bad. But you guys have been married for so long, and to go through all that is challenging. And so when I got divorced, I needed to do something. And I was watching and following Fish and the band the Grateful Dead. But it was dad and company at the time, and they had silver tables, and one of them was called the fellowship. And every show at Alpine Valley since 2015, I would volunteer at the fellowship. And because of my work at the aging Disability Resource Center, I was able to get on these coalitions. So I got on the Brown County Alcohol and Drug Coalition for Change. And I remember the summer, the spring of 2019, because I was going to do the fellowship table again. I was getting really jazzed up for it because the experience of being able to share your sobriety in a non intrusive way, but to have people come to the table and go, my son, my wife, my husband, my friend is struggling. Thank you for being here or for somebody to be, for the first day sober, coming to their first fish show, which is highly drug induced, alcohol environment. To know that there's kind of a safe zone here was wonderful.

[29:21] KATHLEEN PLAGEMAN: I said, did you want to talk about your going to the Grateful dead after you got sober? Do you want to talk about that? Remember, you were afraid to go because you were afraid.

[29:32] JOHN PLAGEMAN: That was fish.

[29:33] KATHLEEN PLAGEMAN: Oh, that was fish.

[29:34] JOHN PLAGEMAN: Yeah, we can get to that. Sure, we can get to that. Okay. So where I'm going with that, this, though, about working the table is that's where I got the inspiration to do this with the Green Bay packers.

[29:45] KATHLEEN PLAGEMAN: Oh, okay.

[29:46] JOHN PLAGEMAN: Okay. And do section yellow. Yeah, I just want to at least get a plug with that. And the packers were wonderful to allow us. We're the first NFL team that is the Green Bay is the drunk, one of the drunkest cities in the country. Wisconsin is the drunkest state in the country out of 72 counties. There are at least probably 50 other counties that are in the top hundred of the most drunkest counties. We have a drinking epidemic that's normalized here in Wisconsin, which is okay, but we want to normalize sobriety and just make it not where. When I was growing up in high school, if I said I was sober, it immediately went, there's something wrong with you immediately. There's something wrong with you immediately. You have a moral deficiency, you have a mental health problem. You can't handle yourself. You don't know how to manage it. You know, suck it up and do it. You know, we all drink quitters. Quitters don't quit, you know, or whatever the tagline is. So to be able to bring this environment to Green Bay is wonderful and the reception that we've gotten is great. But where you're going with that is. My first sober fish show was in June of 2009 at Alpine Valley. It was the first 1st show was, I believe, a Saturday, Saturday, Sunday. The first show I went there and I was. I had tremors, I had anxiety. I don't know if I could make it. I went there with a buddy that wasn't sober and he took all the weed, which was kind of good because anybody that passed me a joint or bowl, I just passed it to him. And I remember that there was a song called the Lizards that I've chased since seeing Fish since 96, and I've never heard it. And then in the second set they played it. I think the second song and the first three notes of it, I had this weird spiritual awakening, as they call it, because I remembered all the drunken bullshit that I did at Alpine Valley. All the drunken bullshit I put you through, all the drunken bullshit that I've done throughout my life. And I turned it over to God. Yes, I turned it over to God. And through, after that moment, I knew then and there that I would be okay. The anxiety and worry left. I got really into the groups of the fellowship. Not too much the warfare acts, but the fellowship. And then fast forward to 2021. Last summer. No, two summers ago.

[32:11] KATHLEEN PLAGEMAN: Was it last summer that you took Jaden?

[32:13] JOHN PLAGEMAN: Yeah, no, it was last summer. It was last summer, 2022. I was able to take my daughter and she was, oh, God, now I need to do math. Seven or eight.

[32:26] KATHLEEN PLAGEMAN: She was eight.

[32:26] JOHN PLAGEMAN: And she came to one show. And the first thing that she did when we got in there was, daddy, I want to sit where you had that moment with God. And we went and sat on the lawn. I got a picture of her and. And it was really cool. It's all about healing. We almost made it through without crying. And she gets it. I think she gets it. I took her down to summer fest, my kids at Summerfest, and this summer, and we stayed at the county Claire, by the way, great hotel if you got to go. Milwaukee, nice irish place. And as we're checking in, you know, I tell them, you know, this is John Blogman. I'm here to check in with my two kids. And my Jayden goes, my dad is the creator of section yellow. I'm going, wow, I don't need to say that, Jaden, you know, but it's cool to see, to bring. We didn't have this discussion when I was growing up. We didn't have this discussion of sobriety, of drinking. It was, don't drink. Don't do this. And all I was seeing with our relatives was drinking. That's all I saw. So to be able not to do that in that culture, I can't. Jaden is. Jaden and Dylan are getting a part of drinking culture because their mother drinks. And normally, I don't, you know, normally, like, anybody would think that would be normally. And she is in a household that doesn't drink, you know? And the one thing that I at least like now, and I know we're wrapping it up, is Wisconsin. Wisconsin's got such a cool culture here that, you know, we, we go camping up north. We, we go to Friday fish fries. We go to supper clubs. On Saturdays, you have the prime ribs. We go look for cheese curds. Like, where are the latest cheese curd places? We love our green Bay packers. The history with the packers and this town and this city and the state is amazing. And to just encompass all that joy that there is without alcohol is. It's not a miracle, but people would say it's a miracle.

[34:43] KATHLEEN PLAGEMAN: I think it's a gift.

[34:44] JOHN PLAGEMAN: It definitely is a gift. Yeah, it definitely, absolutely is a gift. And I'm so glad that you and I get to share that. And we got through the other side. Because the one thing when I share my story is that I tell them is how grateful I am that you and dad are part of my lives, even with the help of raising of Jaden and Dylan. Because after my divorce, I asked you guys to move in with me to help me with the grandkids. And also so I could help you guys as you guys age. And so hopefully you guys age a little bit younger easier and younger easier. You know, it just seems like it worked out the way it is. And one of the coolest things before we end is I always will remember my aunt Rosemary when I first moved up here. She was at Rennis. She basically went from the bed, got on the Hoyer list into her chair, back into her Hoyer lift, back into bed, and she was there for a number of years. Where I go with that is I met with her almost every Monday when I first moved up here because I wanted to be connected to the roots of your family's history of addiction and alcoholism and understand what they went through. Because they went through this high society time in the 1950s and sixties where it was just rampant. And she would give me the real stories, she would validate your stories or correct your stories of what we would know. And it brought some closure and validation of that. I'm nothing. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not afflicted. This is just. It's a disease. It's a disease like cancer. It's a disease like diabetes. It's a disease like dementia. You have to treat it with support and have caregivers to help. And it's. It's a wonderful thing that we're allowing Green Bay to have a voice of sobriety and making sobriety normal as one day at a time, one event at a time here in Green Bay. And you guys are supportive of it and the kids are supportive of it. And, you know, if anybody hears this, that's not from Wisconsin, I hope they have a new understanding of kind of what it's like to grow, grow up in Wisconsin and the drinking culture. Because everybody thinks, drink Wisconsin, bleed. But no, you don't have to.

[36:58] KATHLEEN PLAGEMAN: I always say I live in reality 24/7 you did? Yeah.

[37:02] JOHN PLAGEMAN: You know, I remember you barely drank. You barely drank, Dad. I remember a few incidents where dad was drunk, for instance, where you were drunk. But, I mean, I barely can remember the nineties.

[37:10] KATHLEEN PLAGEMAN: It's usually both, you know? Yeah.

[37:11] JOHN PLAGEMAN: Yeah. Can I step in and ask one last question? Yeah. But I wonder, Kathleen if you could tell John how it feels to be sitting at this table across from him today.

[37:22] KATHLEEN PLAGEMAN: Well, this is a miracle, because I believe in small miracles. And I love you so much. And I just love our lives together, you know, that we're really together, you know, we're getting old now. I'm glad I brought you into this world.

[37:42] JOHN PLAGEMAN: I'm glad you did, too.