Johnnie Cole and Pat Simmons

[00:03] JOHNNIE COLE: My name is Pat Simmons, and I am 64 years old. Today's date is October 15, 2023. I'm from St. Louis, and I am going to interview my mom, Johnnie Cole.

[00:23] PAT SIMMONS: My name is Johnnie Cole, and I'm age 89. Today is October 15, 2023. And I also. So I'm from St. Louis, Missouri.

[00:36] JOHNNIE COLE: Okay, mom. I introduced you as Johnnie Cole, but you weren't born Johnnie Cole. I just want to know about how you have exceeded in life with so many things you had to face, beginning in Mississippi, because a lot of people that were born in Mississippi don't talk about Mississippi. Mississippi. So what can you tell me about Mississippi?

[01:01] PAT SIMMONS: Well, first you mentioned my name. At 18 months old, my father became extremely ill. My mom had four children. I was the baby. The twins were the oldest, but they only lived to be six months old. So at 18 months old, my mother had to go and take care of my father. So she sent her four children to live with her older sister and her daughters. At age six, I believe, I was going to school, and my first cousin, who reared me, decided to change my name. My given name was love Ann Carter, but my first cousin changed my name because she didn't like that. To Johnnie Sue Porter. The Johnnie I believe, was after her husband, whose name was John, and the last name was Porter. Those are the memories I have at six years old, how my name became Johnnie Sue Porter. So that's the name I've had all my life. I wish I had had sense enough to change it back to the original, but I did not.

[02:28] JOHNNIE COLE: One thing that I found was interesting by doing the genealogy was finding you on the same census, listed as Lavan Carter with your dad and his mom. But on the same census in a different county, I found you listed as Johnnie Sue Porter with grandma Porter and Poppy. And talk about records that aren't right. I mean, here you have a census that we depend on for information, and you were in two places, 8 hours away with two different families. And that was odd.

[03:09] PAT SIMMONS: When I became 62, I decided to retire and collect Social Security, and I had a hard time, the census bureau finding me. I went through school records, the schools that I had gone to and couldn't be found. There is no birth certificate of Love Ann Carter. But as you say, there was a. In 1940, they found me as Johnnie Sue Porter in Bolivia County, Mississippi. So that's how I had to go through all of those steps to receive Social Security. Also my two oldest siblings, I had them to write a letter to the department of Social Security stating that I was their sister. And my name originally was Love Ann Carter. So it was a lot of steps I had to go through to get my Social Security, but eventually I did receive it.

[04:20] JOHNNIE COLE: That had to be hard. You had no, you had no say in your name being changed. And as a child, decisions that were made for you, we have no idea when we become an adult, how those earlier changes affect us.

[04:39] PAT SIMMONS: Yeah, it did, because I was named after my paternal grandmother. That was her name. And the funniest thing about it, when you, back in those days when an adult did something, you didn't question it, you let it be. So I didn't have a voice in saying, I want my name to be as my mother named me. So I was stuck with that Johnnie Sue Porter all my life.

[05:14] JOHNNIE COLE: And you had the answer to that. I think it's good. Again, going back to genealogy, I've been able to find some of our relatives because the names are recycled. So when you had my sister, you gave her your middle name, which is a way to honor that. I was at one time a Lavanne, or I call her Lavanne, but it's love Ann, but I call her Lavanne. But that's a way, I guess, for history to say I was this person before I became Johnnie Sue, I was Levanne Carter. Do you ever wish that your siblings, because you had five before you, had kept calling you Lavanne just as a sentimental reason or because they start calling you Johnnie but did they have any resistance to that since they were older?

[06:12] PAT SIMMONS: No, I don't know, but my stepfather always related to me as love Anna. He never did call me Johnnie sue. My name was, to him was Levanne. So that was retained there in one person.

[06:32] JOHNNIE COLE: And I'm just wondering, did he call you that because he didn't raise you, he raised your full siblings and half siblings, but there had to be some type identity or something that he would keep that name.

[06:48] PAT SIMMONS: That I don't know, because it was never questioned. As I say, you didn't question adults back in that time, whatever they said was it, you didn't question, why did you do this and why did you do that? Because that was a no no.

[07:04] JOHNNIE COLE: Okay, so you came to St. Louis with Poppy and grandma, which really were your cousins, older cousins that became my grandparents. Talk about your life, whatever you want to share. From going from Levant to Johnnie and living without your siblings, moving away and coming to St. Louis from Mississippi.

[07:30] PAT SIMMONS: Well, when I realized the hardest thing, when you are young, from 18 months old, and you get older when you're younger, going to school, you don't have a clue of what's happening to you, but as you get older, say, in your teens, you start questioning, why am I the one that my mother, per Se, gave away her baby? I hated my mother because she did this to me until I was maybe. Hmm. In my twenties, I started having you children. And then that's when I realized I became a mother. And I talked with my mom about it, and she says, I didn't have anything to raise you all, so I sent all of you all to my sister to raise until I got married again. And then when I married, my father said not to take you back, but to take the three older siblings back because my stepfather had enough children to rear and there was no need for you to come. So that was the sad part about it, thinking that, in essence, my mother actually gave me away. But then as I got older and I talked to her, she says, I didn't have anything to raise you all with, so I had to let you go. But I didn't want to let you go. But it is something that sticks with you, and you never get old over it. I still don't get over it now at 89 years old, because it's something that I missed.

[09:36] JOHNNIE COLE: Right. Well, I know, again, referring back to genealogy, I've done a lot on dad's side, but I was determined. Because you never met your dad.

[09:49] PAT SIMMONS: No.

[09:50] JOHNNIE COLE: Because you went to live with Poppy and grandma, so you never met him?

[09:53] PAT SIMMONS: No.

[09:54] JOHNNIE COLE: So I was determined to find his death certificate. Your siblings described how strong he was and things of that nature. But when I found his death certificate, even though we know he lived, it's something about finding a piece of paper that verifies he really. He really was here. He really did live. He walked the earth type of thing. So once we found out what he died from, at what, 3235-3333 did that provide you some closure with saying, okay, now I know what my mom went through.

[10:37] PAT SIMMONS: You hit the nail on the head there. When I realized what my mother went through trying to bring up four children with nothing back in 1934, which was during the depression, I found closure there because I realized after having you children and then divorcing and having to do all of this by myself, that I had it better than she had because I had a job that I could go to. But my mother didn't have anything. She was trying to rely on my paternal grandfather and my father's mother and his family, however, understanding that they were not able to help her or would not help her. So I understood what she went through, and I was able to find closure and forgive her. And until her death, we became close and corresponded with each other. We called each other and I visited her. I took you children down one in Mississippi to see her. I. So. But being adopted, I can understand children who are adopted. They always want to find their parent. So there is a bond being a parent between yourself and your children, whereas no one can break that blood bond. It is there forever. And even though my foster parents were there to feed and clothe me, it was not the same.

[12:36] JOHNNIE COLE: But, mama, they really weren't your foster parent. I mean, we did.

[12:39] PAT SIMMONS: I call them foster parents because I don't know what to say that. I can't say my adopted parents because I wasn't legally adopted. So what am I? Am I just a cousin that lived with them? I guess you could say that.

[12:57] JOHNNIE COLE: That's interesting, because when you think about foster parents, you think about people that willingly seek after you, that want you and want to provide for you. And I want to talk about you overcoming all that. But first, again, going back to genealogy, I remember calling Grandma Charlotte to just get some information. And the first thing she said, how's my baby? And I'm like, what baby?

[13:31] PAT SIMMONS: She's like, how's me?

[13:32] JOHNNIE COLE: Yeah. She says, your mother. I'm like, oh, my mama. I don't look at mama as a baby, but I just, you know, I felt a disconnect from her because I just felt, even though you were, I don't really want to use the word excluded, but I felt growing up excluded from Grandma Charlotte and them because we didn't live around them. And the relationship was just temporal when we saw them. And so, yes, she's my grandmother, biological grandmother. But you talk about a bond. She was just my grandmother in name. I don't feel bonded. I didn't feel bonded to her at all, really. I really didn't because I didn't spend time with her.

[14:27] PAT SIMMONS: That's true. I can understand that because my grandchildren and I are all bonded because they grew up around me and I had a chance to enjoy all of my grandchildren growing up. So I can understand what you're saying. There was no bondage there between you and your grandmother. Also, when I became an adult, there, again, I resented, maybe it was a little jealousy because when I was getting married, I sent my mother an invitation to my wedding. And her excuse was, oh, I have to take after my garden. However, when my youngest sibling married, she went all the way to Illinois to her wedding. So I had resentment in my heart. There because I felt like she cared more for them than she did for me because I never was around, and she was bonded with them more than she was with me, even though we corresponded, talked on the phone, wrote letters, and she remembered my birthday and all of that. But being a child that's separated, maybe other children don't feel this way, but I did, and I always try to suppress it and keep it in the back of my mind and not let it come forward and to move on from the situation, but that's hard.

[16:09] JOHNNIE COLE: So let's talk about you being an overcomer, because you did overcome, and it was a traumatic childhood, not physical, or you didn't starve to death or you didn't. Well, I think back there, all of us got our whippings or whoopings, but you were financially taken care of. But talk about being an overcomer, because there's a lot of children, you mentioned foster care, but there's a lot of children now that need to know, how do I overcome my traumatic childhood? Knowing that my mom gave me away or my mom didn't care enough or my dad didn't care enough, you know, to be around when I was a child. You're 89 years old. You've outlived, you're the youngest, but you've outlived your biological, full biological siblings. So talk about overcoming when you live with Poppy and grandma. And even now.

[17:10] PAT SIMMONS: I don't think I overcame it. I think what I did would place it on the shelf in the back of my mind, and to move on, and I think would really help me to move on from that and forget about it is to having children myself and sharing in their lives and just enjoying seeing them grow up to adulthood and enjoying my grandchildren. That's what helped me overcome the whole situation. Just, you understand, just having somebody that belongs to you, something that you say, this is mine. No one can take vets away from me. I can say, I can put this in the back of my mind because I have something of my own. So I think that is how I overcame it.

[18:11] JOHNNIE COLE: You know, you talk about the bond that you have between, you know, me, my sister, and my brother, but I remember growing up, and we didn't have a lot, but then again, we did. And I remember kids from the neighborhood, they would come over, our free would come over, but they would come over to see you, mama Cole. Cause you would entertain them. It was as if our friends were your friends, and they just. They came to see you. So that was fun.

[18:40] PAT SIMMONS: That had to be fun to see it was fun. And remember when we went to the school reunion, when all the people, there's misses Cole and everybody was hugging me. And to look at that now in my lifetime and see the young people that, that came around me, and I guess it's because I was giving out a lot of love to them and patient and understanding and enjoying just their childhood. Because one young man, I asked him, why are you all always coming to see me? And he said, because that was Ron Ronald. He says, because you treat us like we are human beings. I didn't know that's what I was doing, but it was a joy to just see that young, young vibration around me because really, I didn't have a childhood, right, right. It was, I grew up, but I didn't have a happy childhood.

[19:49] JOHNNIE COLE: Right. But talk about your adulthood now, though, because you say that you don't think that you've overcome, but I look at, you're 89 years old. You still do taxes every year. You, the last car you bought, you were, what, 84 years old. You still move around. So to me, you have overcome a lot of hardship, even though that hurt is still with you. But in spite of not living with your biological mother, you can say I still became educated. I still became successful. You know, when I was talking to you, most blacks became teachers or nurses. You said you couldn't stand the sight of blood, and I don't think you could teach little bad kids, so that wouldn't have worked. But you got your secretarial certificate and you got accounting, and then you do taxes. So right then, you were bucking the system. You fought your way through to, even now, to take care of yourself. So just as an encouragement to anyone that's struggling. Cause there's a lot of kids out there that are struggling. They're not with their parents, for some of these parents don't even know how to be parents. But what tidbit of wisdom can you give them that had a bad childhood? What would you say to them?

[21:30] PAT SIMMONS: The only thing I can go back in time and think about, my parents always took me to church. That's where my strength was. Because as a. When I became old enough to read, I started reading the Bible. And then I always prayed. I didn't know what I was praying for, but I knew there was a God. And in reading the Bible, it sticks in my mind now. There was a big picture in the family Bible that had Jesus standing at the door knocking. And he said, if you will let me enter in, I will come in and sup with you. That is what sticks with me now. That the only way I survived was to depend upon God to bring me through every situation that I encountered.

[22:41] JOHNNIE COLE: So the common thing is God. Knowing that God is with you, he would never forsake you. Even through troubled times, you knew God was there. You really didn't know what you were praying, but you did know. So that's. I think that's the key, is that no matter what we're going through, God is always there. He's never left you.

[23:08] PAT SIMMONS: Exactly.

[23:09] JOHNNIE COLE: And he's giving you things that you didn't have growing up. I mean, so many people admire you because when I say, oh, my mom still does taxes, what? Your mom still does taxes. Your mom still drives. And then, you know, people look at you, your mom is 89 years old. But I think something that we will always remember, you know how they say you become your mother, that we will always remember, and even your grandchildren, is. I just remember. And it just came out. I was ironing my son's clothes, and he did something. And I just automatically, I said, you must forget that I'm Johnnie Cole's daughter, and I will hurt you. And so that has been the thing now is that I'm gonna go Johnnie Cole on you. I'm gonna go Johnnie Cole on you. And then even my daughter, she'll say, mom, I don't want you coming up to school because you're not gonna act the way I need you to act. I'm gonna call grandma. Cause grandma gonna go Johnnie Cole on them. So that's. I think that's one thing that we all will know. Even a relatively new friend to the family when she came over for, I guess, labor day.

[24:33] PAT SIMMONS: My birthday.

[24:34] JOHNNIE COLE: Yeah, your birthday. And we were talking about going Johnnie Cole on someone. And then even she said, okay, I know how to go Johnnie Cole on somebody. So it's like everybody knows. Your grandchildren, your nieces, they know look out if someone's gonna go Johnnie Cole on them. So that's something that you've given us, because that's resilient. That means I'm not gonna play. You got 10 seconds. Step back. We gonna take care of you. So I think that's probably gonna be a good memory for me, is saying, I will go Johnnie Cole on you. So I. So I just. I just thank you for allowing me to just talk to you, even though some of the things you said I've heard before. But just sharing those things to help someone that is going through the same situation, you know, to be an overcomer, is really to rely on God?

[25:43] PAT SIMMONS: Yes, because a lot of young people nowadays have mental illness. And I look back on it and think about my time. Boy, I could have been a basket case, you know, I could have not been able to survive. But then only God could bring me this far through all of the trials and tribulations I had. But then young people nowadays, they weren't brought up in the church. They were not taught about religion, so they don't have anything to reach back and hold on to. There is nothing. That's where I was fortunate, even though it was hard growing up, not being with my mother and my siblings and not sharing in the life with my mom, although my first cousin and husband was good to me, but it was not the same as it. And I don't think that they knew how to emit love to a person because they were brought up in a time and an era that was so hard for them. So a lot of older people, before my time, they would never discuss their lives. They would never tell you what was going on or how they. Sometime they would break through. I think that is what kept them from showing any emotion whatsoever.

[27:21] JOHNNIE COLE: The past.

[27:22] PAT SIMMONS: The past. But then there was a breakthrough for me, and I often laughed to myself and say, my mother named me love, Ann. So, lord, that is what I am. Love. The first thing I am is love. And that's probably true, because a lot of people I meet, once they become connected with me, it seems as though some of them, not all of them are connected, and they are my friend.

[27:51] JOHNNIE COLE: Mm hmm. You know, one thing I used to think? I used to think because of your childhood, remember? I always say, oh, mama, you're just mean. But I used to always think that that was your defense mechanism.

[28:04] PAT SIMMONS: It was.

[28:05] JOHNNIE COLE: But after I done met your sisters, my aunties, that could stand a man on their head, I'm like, okay, it's just a rhetoric. It's just hereditary. It's just not mama. It's just not mama. But that's something that I think that's been your defense mechanism, because you were just really, as a child, hurt. And it's hard to get over that child hurt. But I could just say I'm just thankful that when I became a parent, I understood. I understood that. That possessiveness and that parenting and that discipline where growing up, I had, like I said, I really didn't have a bond with grandma Charlotte. And then when we're with cousins and they talk about her, I mean, she's foreign to me.

[28:55] PAT SIMMONS: Yeah.

[28:56] JOHNNIE COLE: You know, my biological grandmother. But then I think about my step grandfather on daddy's side, that was closer to me than a blood grandfather. But that bond, you can't replace that bond. I don't care how you treat it.

[29:12] PAT SIMMONS: You know, that bond between a mother and a child is. It's always so close until it's unbreakable. You can't break it. I see some people resent their parents. They hate them. And I don't know what causes that. Maybe it's an emotional or psychological problem. But if you watch the news, you see some children have been abused, but they still love their mother and their father. It doesn't matter. So that love is a bond that can't be broken. It's not supposed to be broken. There are adopted children I see on the news who may be 40, 50 years old, and all of a sudden, they decide to search for their mother or their father. So, see, this is what I'm saying. That bun cannot be broken, no matter what happens.

[30:15] JOHNNIE COLE: Okay. Well, mom, is there anything that you would want to add or anything that you would like to say to their. To your grandchildren?

[30:27] PAT SIMMONS: To my grandchildren. The only thing I can say. I am so happy. God bless me with grandchildren. Great grandchildren, because that's my inheritance. They are my inheritance. And I was so glad to have all of them. They're spoiled, but that's okay, right?

[30:49] JOHNNIE COLE: Cause they can just say, I'll go with Johnnie Cole on that.

[30:53] PAT SIMMONS: Yeah. But that's that in the very end of my life. And I tell God this every day. Thank you, Lord, for bringing me this far by your grace. And thank you for my children and great grandchildren and one great grandson. So, see, I am rich. I might not be rich in money, but I'm rich where no one can take that richness from me. Is that.

[31:20] JOHNNIE COLE: Well, mom, thank you for opening up, because I know how close you can be, and especially people that went through things in Mississippi and the horrific things they were exposed to. So, I know it's hard, but I appreciate you sharing that with me, and I'll take it with me until the end.

[31:42] PAT SIMMONS: Oh, well, I didn't want to open up because it's something I never really wanted to talk about, but I did it for you.

[31:50] JOHNNIE COLE: Well, thank you, mom. I appreciate it.

[31:52] PAT SIMMONS: You're welcome.