Julia Fabris McBride and Jeffery Gaines

[00:02] JULIA FABRIS MCBRIDE: All right, go ahead. My name is Julia Fabris McBride. I am 60 years old. It's May 16, 2022, and we're in Wichita. My conversation partner is Jeff Gaines, and we are here to have a one small step conversation.

[00:23] JEFF GAINES: My name is Jeff Gaines. I am 50 years old. Today's date is the 16 May, 2022. We're located in Wichita, Kansas. My conversation partner is Julia Fabris. Fabris, I want to say Fabris McBride, she is my one small step, my story core partner, conversation partner.

[00:48] JULIA FABRIS MCBRIDE: So, Jeff, what made you want to do this interview today?

[00:53] JEFF GAINES: So, this is my second time doing an interview. I thought it was very interesting the last time. The reason why I signed up for it the last time was to step outside of myself and to communicate with someone unlike myself, who I could hopefully establish a common ground with, but not necessarily that, but just to establish commonalities between two different people, or what's perceived to be two different people.

[01:28] JULIA FABRIS MCBRIDE: Is it different at all for you now?

[01:33] JEFF GAINES: No. You mean the idea of reason why? No, it's the same. I just have this belief that if. No matter the differences between two people, if you have a meaningful conversation for five minutes, I really do believe that you would find some common ground with that person. Similarities. I just think that we're all similar. We just have different backgrounds, upbringings. What made you want to do this interview today, Julia?

[02:09] JULIA FABRIS MCBRIDE: Well, some of my coworkers were really involved with bringing one small step to Wichita. So there's a little bit of, you know, a lot of people on our team are doing this. And I don't know. I mean, I'm just. Where I am right now is just. I'm really happy to have met you, and I'm happy to be sitting here. And I think the thing is that in my work and life here in Kansas, I do meet a lot of people who think very differently than I am, than I do and have different, especially political backgrounds. And when I lived in Chicago, I was just. I was surrounded by people who thought like me. But I don't get a lot of opportunity to sit down with somebody who thinks differently and have a conversation where I can, where I'm supposed to ask anything and be curious.

[03:12] JEFF GAINES: I guess Chicago is a bit more diverse than Wichita.

[03:16] JULIA FABRIS MCBRIDE: More diverse and more liberal.

[03:22] JEFF GAINES: Okay.

[03:25] JULIA FABRIS MCBRIDE: So I'm going to read your bio out loud, and it says, hello, I'm Jeff, and looking forward to meaningful conversation. I am retired military and currently am employed by the dodgesthe. I'm originally from Atlanta, but now proudly call Wichita my home. I'm proud of my military service and love to help those in need.

[03:51] JEFF GAINES: What a non interesting bio.

[03:53] JULIA FABRIS MCBRIDE: It's a great bio.

[03:56] JEFF GAINES: Now I will read her bio.

[03:59] JULIA FABRIS MCBRIDE: Julia, would you ask what else you might be interested to learn? Yeah, I'm interested in what motivated you to choose military service.

[04:21] JEFF GAINES: If I gave you the real answer for that, you probably would say to yourself, wow, I can't believe that. So, first of all, my father was in the air Force, older brother at the time when I joined, was in the air Force, too. I actually went to college first, wasn't prepared to go to college. And I was in a relationship with a young lady who wanted to get married. And she said, you need a job. So I kind of stepped away from college and I joined the military. Originally it was going to be the air force, but I had to go sooner rather than later, so I wound up joining the army. I got halfway through my training, and that young lady and I broke up. But if it wasn't for her, I wouldn't have met my current spouse. And we've been together for going on 26 years now.

[05:17] JULIA FABRIS MCBRIDE: Nice.

[05:18] JEFF GAINES: So that is actually a true story. But you know what? I had a blast in the military. Don't regret anything. And wow, it was a very wonderful experience. And so I've been retired now since about 2016. 2017. I'm sorry, but I work for the air force now out in McConnell.

[05:38] JULIA FABRIS MCBRIDE: So you were in the army, but now you work for the air force?

[05:41] JEFF GAINES: Correct. And my wife is actually a retired air force. So we met over in Germany.

[05:48] JULIA FABRIS MCBRIDE: And what made you decide to stay in Wichita?

[05:53] JEFF GAINES: We had our choice. I retired out of Fort Raleigh, about 2 hours away from here. And we had our choice to go anywhere. But there was a calling, a pull to me for Wichita. And since we've been here, we've just been overwhelmingly blessed. I'm not necessarily a religious person, but I'm spiritual, have a strong faith. And so I was pulled in this direction down here. And it's been wonderful ever since. Ever since. I do share some of your similar views. What you were just talking about as far as Chicago and here, me being from Atlanta, specifically being in the military for all that time and coming to a place like Wichita. But it was a fun ride. I had a good time in the military.

[06:48] JULIA FABRIS MCBRIDE: And would you go back to Atlanta ever?

[06:51] JEFF GAINES: Only to visit.

[06:52] JULIA FABRIS MCBRIDE: Okay.

[06:53] JEFF GAINES: Only to visit. Now I'm gonna read your bio. I grew up in the Chicago suburb. I'm gonna pause right there. What suburb? What?

[07:04] JULIA FABRIS MCBRIDE: Elmhurst.

[07:05] JEFF GAINES: I haven't been to Chicago, but I'm looking for.

[07:07] JULIA FABRIS MCBRIDE: Yeah, 15 miles straight west.

[07:09] JEFF GAINES: That's where I grew up and lived in that city until age 46. So you haven't been in Wichita that long then, right? Okay.

[07:15] JULIA FABRIS MCBRIDE: Yeah.

[07:16] JEFF GAINES: Moved to the Kansas Flint Hills with my husband in 2006, and my only child was born that year. The next year. I am bisexual and monogamous. Our 14 year old identifies as non binary or trans lgbt issues are important to me, particularly the psychological and physical safety of teenagers so they can thrive and contribute. I serve on the school board of our rural county, worked for a Wichita non profit, and was previously a professional actor. And what I would like to ask you more specifically about your bio is serving on the school board with your teenager. How is that for you? And do you feel that he, she. I'm sorry.

[08:16] JULIA FABRIS MCBRIDE: They.

[08:16] JEFF GAINES: They.

[08:17] JULIA FABRIS MCBRIDE: Yeah.

[08:17] JEFF GAINES: Okay. Okay. How do they feel about going to a school like that in a rural county? What. What county is that?

[08:26] JULIA FABRIS MCBRIDE: First it was Chase county. And actually, they don't go there anymore. They go to east here in Wichita. Now, we. Lake went to. And it's really interesting because they're 14, right? And they're really trying to find themselves. And even since I wrote that, they seem less. Like, more actually, like, less on their way to being non binary or trans. And, like, I'm gonna cut my hair short now, mom. Like, this person who I love is very much in that 14 year old trying to find themselves. And when they were in 6th grade, they were in the rural school. So a school of their graduating class would have been 29 kids. And they had their friend, their name was Luke, until fifth grade. And they went to a. They went to, actually, a camp, acting day camp in Evanston, Illinois, which is just north and where my stepdaughter lives with her family, just north of Chicago and Lake. Luke came home that after the first day and said, mom. And this is, I think, right after fifth grade, mom. In the morning, they asked me my pronouns, and I didn't know what to do, so I said, he. But in the afternoon, I said, they, them, theirs. So it was clear that there was just something that resonated with Lake that day of, like, oh, I don't have to be he him. I can be they, them, theirs. And from that. From there on, like, they change. They asked their closest friends and me and my husband to call them Lake instead of Luke. They were never, like, just. Just Sunday, somebody from, you know, somebody that they knew when they were little, came and lake to our house and, like, said, you can call. Tell Phyllis. Don't tell Phyllis. I'm late. Like, you can have her call me Luke. So they're uncomfortable in that rural space with being different. And I think in 6th grade in rural Chase county, the boys were into sports or being cowboys, and Lake is not either of those.

[11:15] JEFF GAINES: Were there any issues at the school?

[11:17] JULIA FABRIS MCBRIDE: You know, there really weren't. There weren't any big issues. I mean, I think the only issues that I can think of was that I think I saw Lake get quieter and quieter, you know, sort of less. Whereas when they were in third or fourth grade, they were very outgoing and very. And just as they. I think. I think as they figured out they were different, they got quieter and quieter, and they've kind of, you know, in. So then starting in 7th grade, we brought them to Wichita public schools, and they got into the International Baccalaureate or the pre international baccalaureate program and then went on to east there.

[12:03] JEFF GAINES: And it's been okay here.

[12:04] JULIA FABRIS MCBRIDE: It's been great here.

[12:05] JEFF GAINES: Great. Yeah, reasonably. My youngest daughter went to high school out at May south, and she started there back in 2016, 2017 ish, when we first arrived in Wichita. And at the time, she was, like, one of the only african american students in the entire school. And she didn't have too many incidents, but there were a couple, and even one is enough. So she wound up going there for four years. And I actually asked her at one point, do you want to move away from here? We were living in an apartment. We hadn't made any kind of permanent ties to Wichita. But she said, no, dad, I'm going to stay here and make a difference. So.

[12:48] JULIA FABRIS MCBRIDE: Oh, good.

[12:48] JEFF GAINES: It worked out. But I was wondering about that when I saw that.

[12:53] JULIA FABRIS MCBRIDE: Yeah, I think the thing is that the difference between lake in that rural school where they really were the only one who was, at least among the boys, who was asking those kinds of questions about themselves to a place here in Wichita where they're not the only one anymore.

[13:16] JEFF GAINES: Who'S a couple of people who's had the biggest influence in your life? What did they teach you?

[13:28] JULIA FABRIS MCBRIDE: You know, I answer a question like that very differently depending on the day, I think. And, you know, now that, I mean, just based on your question, I'm thinking, well, Lake has taught me the most. You know.

[13:52] JEFF GAINES: Isn'T that interesting that you can have an influencer that's actually your child? Yeah, I was thinking the same thing, too, when I mentioned my youngest daughter, her teaching me a lesson in that about the strength of a child. And as it turns out, she probably got that strength from her parents. And I'm sure Lake is the same way. But yet, as you and I sit here, we're thinking about an influence of our children being one. So I don't know if too many people would actually recognize that. You can learn from your own children.

[14:29] JULIA FABRIS MCBRIDE: What do you feel like you learned from your youngest daughter?

[14:33] JEFF GAINES: Her resolve. Her resolve just not to cut and run, to actually stay and make a difference. My father down in Atlanta, he was the second person to move on the street of color, and he didn't cut and run. He stayed there. And, you know, we grew up in a nice middle class community. And she fast forward now she's teaching me the same thing of the resolve to stay there, and it's worked out well for us.

[15:10] JULIA FABRIS MCBRIDE: That's cool. Yeah. Yeah, that's really cool. Jeff, maybe ask Julia what the biggest thing the lake has taught her.

[15:20] JEFF GAINES: Julia, what's the biggest thing that lake has taught you?

[15:31] JULIA FABRIS MCBRIDE: Ah, yeah, it's. It's something. Hmm. It's something about not letting. Not letting the. And it's not quite this, but it's something about not letting the bad things get you down. And my husband is similar. Like, I'm pretty. I mean, I can be dragged down into negative self talk and even depression at some points in my life, and my husband is not like that. You know, he'll look ahead and he can be down, but not down. And I think with Lake, I've always been afraid that they're going to get some of my tendency towards depression. And so I think what lake has taught me, actually, is even though they're my kid, they are whole and creative and able. And I've actually. I feel like from the time they were about eight months old, I've felt that, like, wow, there's this person before me who's whole and creative and so separate from me. So I think there's something about, like, respect for difference, healthy respect for difference, and curiosity about what's going on. So I think Lake has heightened my curiosity about what's going on in other people's hearts and heads.

[17:48] JEFF GAINES: Yeah. If I could just aspire, I think courage with both of them.

[17:53] JULIA FABRIS MCBRIDE: Yeah, yeah, both.

[17:55] JEFF GAINES: The courage to really stand up in an environment, in a world that's different, and there's so many people against you in one shape or way or form. And their courage to have the resolve to be in that different space, I think is astounding.

[18:15] JULIA FABRIS MCBRIDE: And what's it been like for you? Because it sounds like your youngest daughter is now in college or away from.

[18:24] JEFF GAINES: Sophomore in college. 50 nesters.

[18:26] JULIA FABRIS MCBRIDE: Yes. Yes. Down in Texas A and m. Nice. Cool. So what was it like for you to parent her through that experience?

[18:38] JEFF GAINES: Great question. I gotta tell you, you know, it. It was hard for me. It was difficult because when she first started there, I would drop her off at school in the morning. And we got into this routine where every Friday morning we would go early and we would go up to Starbucks over at Newmarket, and we sit there and we grab a cup of coffee, you know, and we just talk. And that was our bonding time. But it used to tear me apart because I had this perception of what I thought she was going through at that time with being different from everybody else. And I know she was struggling, not really having any friends. People were not as welcoming to her as I wanted them to be. And it used to. I used to really struggle with that. But when she made the comment that she wanted to stay and make a difference, I had to support her in that and let her find her way. So as she gathered friends and things of that nature, I've always was always uncomfortable about it, but I was more receptive to dealing with it. And of course, we were involved as parents, the meetings and going to talk to her teachers and everything like that. So we definitely had a presence in the school, but. And it got better. I mean, it was more diverse as the years went along. And she just went down to Texas A and M, and she's thriving down there. So I'm really proud of her.

[20:27] JULIA FABRIS MCBRIDE: That's cool. What was it like for you and your wife to be? I mean, it sounds like it got more diverse as it went along. But her freshman year, were you the only people of color at the parent teaching meetings?

[20:44] JEFF GAINES: We were. Yeah, we were. You could definitely tell, you know. But I guess being in the military kind of prepares you for, because you're working with such a diverse melting potential, different cultures coming together, and you really get a sense from being in the military that you're either sheltered and the fact that because, you know, we're so strict, there's rules and regulations in place that prevent any kind of negative things as far as going against equal opportunity or any devices or negative comments, it's really not tolerated. But when you retire, you know, you're faced with a different aspect. Now you're out in the real world, in the civilian world. So it's really up close and personal. So you either get, you know, sheltered for 20 plus years and then you come out or you really pay attention to what's really going on in the world, and you never forget that. I myself kind of forgot about that when I did retire, you come to a place like Wichita and go into an environment like that, I guess you pay attention more. So when you really just start to question things when you really don't want to, but you feel like you have no choice in that regard. And it's kind of hard to explain unless you're actually in that situation or that environment. But we definitely felt, you know, a stare or two or comments, but we didn't let that affect us. I guess it's just a part of assimilation when you're the minority in some aspect.

[22:41] JULIA FABRIS MCBRIDE: Yeah. Yeah. I put the part about me being bisexual in the bio because that's something that I like. When I lived in Chicago, like, everybody kind of in my circle knew that because I'd been. They knew I'd been in a relationship with a woman for nine years, and now I was. I had married this man, and it's funny to be. I don't know exactly why I'm making this connection, but I just wanted to. To. That's one of the things that makes it hard for me to feel totally at home in Wichita, because in general, that piece of who I am is not known. And when you're married, I don't feel like going out and announcing it to the world. But I wish there was just a little bit more of a sense that that's, like, a little more openness to the idea that people are more than what we look like. And I just. I feel like people are a little bit more in boxes here.

[24:06] JEFF GAINES: I can definitely agree. Relate to that. Me being a minority here in Wichita, my neighborhood out northwest, I wish my neighbors were more receptive to my family and I living on that street, if I'm out in my yard working, you know, cutting the grass or whatever the case may be, and I wave at someone, or they just wave at me first or initiate conversation with me first instead of seeing who I am first. Like I was saying before, it's not always that I would say, well, that person didn't speak to me because I'm black. You know, I'm not that type of person. But it's always in the back of your head that you're not fully receptive or accepting of me because of that. And so you're saying that you wish people would not be in that box. I'm the same way, and I agree with you because you don't feel like you're totally at home when you really should be. So I can definitely relate to that.

[25:26] JULIA FABRIS MCBRIDE: Yeah.

[25:29] JEFF GAINES: And why should it matter? Why should it matter, because if I get to know you as a person, why should any of that matter how you identify, you know, as yourself? I just don't get that.

[25:42] JULIA FABRIS MCBRIDE: On the other hand, the part about, I mean, it, I mean, the idea, I guess what I would ask you is, to me, the idea that you're a black man with the experience you've had is an interesting part of you. Like what you said about your dad moving you into a mostly white neighborhood and what you're thinking about, about your dad and your daughter. And that's really interesting. And you wouldn't have that as part of who you are if you weren't a black mandeh.

[26:27] JEFF GAINES: Yeah. I can tell you, when we moved on that street, they call it white flight. So all of everybody started moving out of the neighborhood. Well, Miss Smith lived on the corner, and Miss Smith had a swimming pool. And she had children that were around my brother and sister's age. I'm the youngest. My older brother is ten years older than I am. Miss Smith was the register at, she was the secretary at the high school. She came to see my mom. I wasn't born then, but this is a story. She came to see my mom, and she said, I noticed that you have a son. About my son's age. I'm the secretary as well as the registrar. I'm going to register him at school, whatever. And Miss Smith stayed right there in that house. And as we grew up, my brother would cut our grass. And then, you know, I came along. We'd all go cut our grass and keep a yard. Well, Miss Smith was white, obviously. And she let us swim in her pool and everything like that. And I found out later in life that she actually received threats because she did not move out.

[27:43] JULIA FABRIS MCBRIDE: Wow.

[27:44] JEFF GAINES: And she did. She actually, you know, passed away living right there in that corner. She did not move. And she treated all of us as her own children.

[27:55] JULIA FABRIS MCBRIDE: Wow.

[27:58] JEFF GAINES: And that's pretty powerful. Not just the courage of my father to move into that neighborhood, but for her to stay and welcome us in after receiving threats and everything. She never mentioned that. We learned that from her, from her children when she passed away. Wow. I will not leave my home, this neighborhood. And she felt comfortable, and so, and I guess that's another, I've had quite a few influences in my life and what they've taught me as well, too. But you're right, and I'm sure experiences that you've had are the same way. So.

[28:44] JULIA FABRIS MCBRIDE: Where are your parents now?

[28:45] JEFF GAINES: They're deceased. My mom just passed away in April.

[28:50] JULIA FABRIS MCBRIDE: Oh, wow.

[28:50] JEFF GAINES: And my father passed away February of last year.

[28:53] JULIA FABRIS MCBRIDE: Oh, my gosh.

[28:55] JEFF GAINES: They live very long. Fruit. Both of them live to be 87, so it was a long, fruitful life.

[29:05] JULIA FABRIS MCBRIDE: Nice. My parents are 84, live in Cleveland. Yeah.

[29:14] JEFF GAINES: Wow.

[29:17] JULIA FABRIS MCBRIDE: But I'm sorry, that's a lot of loss fairly recently.

[29:21] JEFF GAINES: Oh, yeah. Yeah, it is. But it was kind of expected as well, too. My mom was kind of sick. Yeah.

[29:37] JULIA FABRIS MCBRIDE: Could you briefly describe in your own words, your personal political values?

[29:42] JEFF GAINES: If that was one question. I didn't really want to get into personal political values, but I'm curious, you know, I am. What would you think?

[29:53] JULIA FABRIS MCBRIDE: I have? You know, really? I have no idea. I mean, I have. I guess I, you know, you can say, oh, military, probably pretty Republican, you know, but like African American. Well, maybe Democrat.

[30:08] JEFF GAINES: You know, I would actually. So I'm registered as Democrat when I was in the military, obviously. Yes. Tend to lean towards Republican, for obvious reasons. But I would tell you, really independent, I don't sway one way or the other. I, for one, you know, I almost wish that we didn't have political parties. I really don't. God, just. We were talking about this a little bit ago. Just the art of conversation and working across the table with somebody, working across the aisle to. For the. For the common good of everybody. We're so, and this is my personal view. We've just gotten to a point where we're so divisive and everything nowadays, everything, everything from wearing a mask has come down to your political party. It just kills me to see where we've come as a country related to a personal political belief, whether not even necessarily a belief, but what you identify is as far as Democrat or Republican. And if I'm Republican, I'm white, but if I'm Democrat, I'm either black, Native American, Hispanic, or whatever. And you just thrust into this little box, and I'm not going to listen to you. I'm not even going to address your thoughts and concerns because you're on that side of the aisle and we gotta vote you out and all that kind of nonsense. We're never gonna get anywhere if we don't get past that.

[32:01] JULIA FABRIS MCBRIDE: Yeah, I agree. I agree. Now, I'm kind of adamantly Democrat, but just lately I've been thinking maybe I need to. Maybe I need to, like, leave and be independent, you know, become an independent. But I hate to, because then there's this whole series of elections you don't get to vote in. But I could count on one hand the number of times I've voted, actually voted for a Republican. And I am more likely to, like, write in my neighbor than vote in some of the elections in Chase County. I know if I lived in Wichita, I'd end up probably voting occasionally for somebody who's Republican, but I'm a little sick of it.

[33:03] JEFF GAINES: I am as well. I am as well. That's one of the things. What I love doing things such as this. I've served on my HOA board of my community for the past, going on four years now. I've been trying to get on the city council as one of the advisory boards. Just really because I believe, you know, that if you want a voice, then you have to have a seat at the table. And Wichita is my adopted community, so I'm trying to do my best to really get out there and, you know, make my voice heard, but not just mine, because I'm in it for everybody else, too. So not just my belief in what I want to see accomplished for Wichita, but what everybody has as far as the common good for Wichita. And I. And I just truly believe that. So we'll see what happens. I was on the ethics advisory board, but the person that nominated me for that, she got voted out. So incoming kicked me off.

[34:22] JULIA FABRIS MCBRIDE: Seriously.

[34:25] JEFF GAINES: So I was like, okay, so I gotta start back over again. But I just believe that going back to our political views, you know, it starts at the local community level. What we do here really affects us on day by day. So we'll see what happens. But I'm trying.

[34:46] JULIA FABRIS MCBRIDE: And that was my favorite thing, actually, about being on the school board in Chase county, is that I knew that probably everybody else around that circle was registered Republican, but we were just there to make, you know, for the kids and to make sure the school, these schools could run as well as possible on a limited amount of money. And it really increased my. Opened my heart and increased my respect for people who, you know, check a different box.

[35:21] JEFF GAINES: Do you ever feel misunderstood by people with different beliefs than you?

[35:27] JULIA FABRIS MCBRIDE: Hmm. I don't know if I would use the word misunderstood. I think what I'm afraid of is that people do understand me. That's interesting and don't like it. You know, that feels more like what I experience, maybe.

[36:08] JEFF GAINES: What's an example of that?

[36:10] JULIA FABRIS MCBRIDE: You're asking us to think fast here. Do you ever feel misunderstood? I don't know. I feel like. What's an example of that? Well, I mean, the two big ones are abortion and lgbt rights and lgbt gay marriage. And, like, right now, the abortion one is kind of top of mind, and I'm just feeling like, well, what are we gonna do about this? Because I actually get why somebody wouldn't let. Cause I am very. I mean, I'm very pro choice, but I totally get why somebody would be pro life. And I don't know what are we going to do about that? I don't know what we're going to do about that. And I think the example, and when I think about that, I go back to my 19 year old self, and I didn't have an abortion, but I thought for a day that I was going to, because I ended up not being pregnant and just sort of knew immediately that I would have an abortion when this doctor told me I was pregnant, which I didn't turn out to be, but, you know, and I just, I was totally incapable of seeing any other future for myself. It would like, as somebody who. Anyway, there was that, like, you know, so 1981 or something, 82. And then the, the gay marriage one. That's the one where, like, I don't understand why that's the next question. Oh, no, that's not the next question. The gay marriage one, I feel like, okay, people don't like that. And I just have a. I have a very hard, like, unlike abortion, where I can go, okay, I kind of get this, that one. I have a very hard time that you're against it. No, I'm for it. I'm all for it. And just feel like, why would anybody want to tell another person who they can marry? And where are we gonna go with that? Yeah.

[39:24] JEFF GAINES: So we both share the same view on that, but I like to rephrase the question. Do you tend to shy away from people who you believe share different opinions and values instead of. And when you shy away from what does that actually look like? Can you describe, how would you shy if. Is it something they will say, like a comment towards a certain political belief or, like, you're in the break room and you overhear somebody say something against gay marriage, would you just not necessarily confront them, but would you just shy away from them totally. And you would only interact with them if you had to?

[40:15] JULIA FABRIS MCBRIDE: Yeah, I, first of all, it's sort of remarkable how little, how seldom something like that, like what you would just describe happens. And I think I'm. But, and I don't tend to lean in to the conversation about the difference. I mean, my dad is probably the closest to the, like, he's the person that I'm. Who epitomizes this stuff to me, and I don't lean into having a conversation with my dad about abortion for instance or gay marriage.

[41:04] JEFF GAINES: So it doesn't happen, like, in your work space. It doesn't really, I imagine, because it wouldn't, based on the type of work that you guys do down there. I actually worked for DCF before I started working down on McConnell, and I can tell you it would happen often enough. Often enough where people would make certain comments or, or, you know, say something about a particular situation that I was, didn't share the same belief.

[41:51] JULIA FABRIS MCBRIDE: And what's your tendency there?

[41:57] JEFF GAINES: I didn't lean into, but I definitely would not shy away. I would not shy away. I just always tried to make sure that my point of view was clear and concise. And I will tell you this. So I started working there in about 2016. So during that time, and so there were a lot of people who were Trump supporters predominantly. And so, yeah, it was interesting to hear some of the conversations and comments, you know, going back to that. So I wouldn't shy away, but I wouldn't lean into as well. Do you ever feel troubled by people with the same beliefs as you, people on your side, for example, and how they communicate those beliefs to others?

[43:07] JULIA FABRIS MCBRIDE: Yeah, I do. I, I feel like we're just yelling at each other about, you know, in most cases, just whether it's out, whether it's actually yelling, or if it's just restating opinions and that we're not really working to find, to understand each other. And I, like, I don't feel like I want to feel more empowered to help that happen. And I'm, you know, through my work, I do a little bit of it, but I would love to be doing more of that in my personal life. Helping people who think like me find common ground with people who don't.

[44:11] JEFF GAINES: Don't because they're so one sided in that belief. Even though it's with yours, they still don't want to hear and share opinions from the other side.

[44:24] JULIA FABRIS MCBRIDE: Yeah. People are, too. So unwilling to hear and look for common ground.

[44:31] JEFF GAINES: So are you one of the mentors where you work?

[44:39] JULIA FABRIS MCBRIDE: My title is chief leadership development officer. So I teach and I train the teachers and coaches and develop the curriculum and stuff. Yeah.

[44:49] JEFF GAINES: And it's all based on improving your leadership skills in the workplace.

[44:55] JULIA FABRIS MCBRIDE: Yeah. In workplace and in civic life, to be able to work across factions, you know? So we're getting at the stuff that I try to work on every day.

[45:04] JEFF GAINES: So that's kind of.

[45:08] JULIA FABRIS MCBRIDE: So this is the part where I start to wonder, like, should I let this be, this recording out there in the world?

[45:14] JEFF GAINES: No, I think it's interesting that you work in an environment like that, but. But I guess, you know, being a leader in the military for so many years, I guess it's kind of different, though, from. Because you can be a good, effective leader that. But you still have to be principled and, you know. And what you. Just thinking out loud, Julia, you explored.

[45:45] JULIA FABRIS MCBRIDE: Some of your political views a little bit. Would you like to ask Jeff to explore some of his. Yeah. Do you want to share? Well, I asked him, I guess, like, what I. And you don't have to answer this question, but, like, how do you feel about all the stuff that's a. The conversation about abortion and Roe v. Wade.

[46:13] JEFF GAINES: So I'm definitely pro choice. Have always been. I just believe that that right is left to an individual and not through the court system. The same goes with lgbt rights. I don't feel that you should judge someone just because of who they choose to be in a relationship with or how they identify themselves as being. I am not one to judge. So I definitely don't like some of the conversation and some of the comments that have been floating around on predominantly the republican side of the House. I could take it even a step further with critical race theory being a topic and this whole thing about canceling this woke idea that's going around. I personally had never heard of critical race theory until it became a thing. And I've talked to a lot of people who stated the same thing. I've actually never heard of what is it? And it is a theory. So should it be taught in a elementary environment? No, it shouldn't. But that's also a topic where it's not about critical race theory or erasing what has happened in history. It's about the education of America and its history, and that is a part of it. So I think there's a false narrative that's been floated around about this whole critical race theory, which, again, has become politicized on, you know, one side of the aisle. I think that too much of what's being floated around in terms of the media and what's being talked about nowadays are not necessarily political issues that should not be discussed in the form that they are being strictly politically based. I don't think somebody should run on a platform saying, well, if I'm elected, I'm just going to erase everything that has to do with lgbt issues. Because if we don't get away from that, then what's next? What's going to be the next thing on the plate that we're just going to get rid of? And that's why it goes back to my political beliefs now of not being one way or the other, but how are we going to get to that point where we're sitting here talking about, imagine if you were. If I was the head of the Republican Party, if I was, you know, you're Chuck Schumer and I'm Mitch McConnell, and we sit down and we just talk like this right here.

[49:24] JULIA FABRIS MCBRIDE: Right?

[49:24] JEFF GAINES: Could we get to a space where, God, man, it's just about people and the betterment of the country. Will we ever get to something like that?

[49:34] JULIA FABRIS MCBRIDE: Right. What really should we be working on? I love what you just said about, like, really this stuff. People shouldn't be running on.

[49:42] JEFF GAINES: I don't believe so.

[49:43] JULIA FABRIS MCBRIDE: We should be running on. I mean, how do we get people out of poverty? And how do we.

[49:50] JEFF GAINES: In my little enchanted world, I just believe, or I would really wish that over half of America would share the same belief that you and I have right now, that we could get to that space if we wanted to. And that's the thing. If we wanted to. And I think now with so many people. I was talking to a guy a couple of days ago and in my office, and he made a couple of comments that were just, like, totally untrue about Social Security. Biden had just signed this thing that was just getting rid of Social Security, and it was just. Where did you hear that from? And he was just so convinced that this was a thing. Like, Biden just signed this thing and Social Security is going away. But he was so convinced that that was. That was the case. And my fear is that too much of America is going in that direction. So my political beliefs, fair equality for everybody across the board, whatever that looks like, democratic or republican, pro choice, pro lgbt issues, just gay marriage. Wow. Does that all sound cliche? Am I sounding like. I don't know, I kind of feel like I'm sounding like my own political lad here for a new independent party. I don't know. No, I love it. That's just my belief, though.

[51:18] JULIA FABRIS MCBRIDE: Yeah. We're getting close to time here, so maybe one more question you'd like to ask your partner. I'm curious, though, if you would be interested in responding to where you fall a little bit more on the road side of the spectrum, because we've actually found a lot of alignment between the two of you.

[51:43] JEFF GAINES: What do you. What do you mean?

[51:44] JULIA FABRIS MCBRIDE: On the conservative end, do you have some beliefs that land you in that camp?

[51:56] JEFF GAINES: Not really. That's kind of a tough one right now on the conservative side, I don't know. I just really have to think. What about for you, what, what, what lands you on a conservative side? What, I mean, just way, like, that's one issue where I would not go. That's a tough one for me.

[52:24] JULIA FABRIS MCBRIDE: Yeah. Nothing.

[52:26] JEFF GAINES: It really is.

[52:32] JULIA FABRIS MCBRIDE: I could be convinced that, I mean, that there are probably some conservative approaches to the economy that are worth considering. And, you know, I'm curious about some of the, you know, some of what I. Yeah, I can't even think of anything else.

[53:13] JEFF GAINES: The one thing that I would tell you what's easy for me is I would have to believe in a strong military, but then being in the military and being deployed on several, several occasions to so many lovely places. Yeah. I would tell you that I do not want to be in a situation where the military becomes the world's police as well, but I do believe in, for the defense of the country in the current state of the world that we live in, having a strong military as needed. So I would say that that would be the one spot that I would lean towards on the conservative side. I will tell you, I believe in the good of a person. The most recent city council election, I voted for somebody who is a Republican, and it didn't matter to me because I had met this person through the, the HOA, and it talked to this person and really believed that she was for the good of the city and for the city, and she just happened to be Republican, and that did not matter to me. So. But I believe the military side of the house would be the only one. And that would be based on my experience being in, and being deployed as well.

[54:45] JULIA FABRIS MCBRIDE: Yeah. And I would say I'd be on the liberal, I'd probably be pretty knee jerk liberal on that. But, you know, sitting across the table and hearing you say that makes me think, well, there's clearly, there's a different, there's a perspective from somebody who knows more that I'm totally open to.

[55:05] JEFF GAINES: And the fact that you would be willing to listen is how, I mean, you know, coming across and having it. Well, here's the reasons why I would say that. Here's why I think we need a strong, robust defense budget. Do I want to get to a space in our society, in our world society that we wouldn't need that? Absolutely I would. But we could go into that conversation. You have to have strengthened NATO alliances and partnerships. And I believe all of that was kind of torn down with the past regime. So there's arguments on both sides to that.

[55:55] JULIA FABRIS MCBRIDE: So I want to know what being a Kansan means to you.

[56:02] JEFF GAINES: I knew you were going to ask me.

[56:04] JULIA FABRIS MCBRIDE: Yeah.

[56:05] JEFF GAINES: What does that mean to me? Ah, you know, what does a Kansan mean to me? The same thing is what being an American means to me. Freedom. Freedom for anything. Freedom to live where I want to live, to have conversations with different people and like we're doing now and just having, although I think we do have a lot in common and we share a lot of ideas and beliefs. But I just don't want to say what does being a Kansan mean to me? It's about being american and having the freedom to just live anywhere where you want to live and achieve anything that you want to achieve, regardless of who you are, what your background is, what your political beliefs are, everybody treated fair and equal across the board. And just really, you know, when you come into a room and you see somebody that's different from you, I'm sure you've seen that where, you know, you either see somebody that you know and you gravitate towards them, or you see somebody that looks like you and you gravitate towards them that go in any room, and it's always like that. So how can we tap into those qualities of bridges, vision in our communities? By getting to know one another, by having conversation, I think is powerful. So not just being a Kansan, but being american and being in a spot where you go into a place. And I always had this philosophy in the military. I always leave it better than what you came into. And Wichita is one of those things for me. I just want to make it. Even though none of my children ever want to live here, they'll say, we'll come and visit you, but we're not living here. And that's fine. But for anybody to want to come and visit, hey, this is a cool town. There's a lot to do here, and it's inclusive and it's diverse, and, you know, I feel welcome here. That's what I would like. That's what being a Kansan, that's what being a Wichita. What would you say a Wichitan. Wichita. A Wichitan would be, which I would, you know, much rather be related to as a Wichitan as opposed to a Kansan, because this is where I live. This is my home now. How do you feel about that, being from Chicago?

[58:49] JULIA FABRIS MCBRIDE: Yeah. So I live in Chase county half the week and in Wichita half the week. And I think what I love, what I have loved about living in Kansas and what being a Kansan means to me is I've just gotten to know a lot of people who, and not as deeply as I might want to, but a lot of people who think differently than I do and who do different things. And my experience in Chicago was I was mostly in a community of people who were in theater or the arts. And it's so big, and there's so many people that you can only know those people. Like, you can't know all the people, but here it feels like you're one step removed. You can almost call anybody, like, you know, somebody who knows, like, I want to talk to that person. Oh, Jeff knows that person. I'll call Jeff, and Jeff will get me connected. And so one of my favorite things about Kansas is that we're all connected by one or maybe sometimes two steps. And, like, a friend of mine was somebody I work with was just saying, yeah, I met my boyfriend online, but I got a good. I found somebody who knew him, and she said, yeah, you could go out on a date with him. And that's just so great. And my experience in small town Kansas is that people, regardless of political persuasion, take care of one another. Like the volunteer fire, when you accidentally set your lawn on fire or your grass on fire, the volunteer fire department shows up. And I think we can tap into a lot of that way that Kansans take care of one another and how we're all connected, even to somebody who's like us, who's new in town, we have connections, and we can tap into that to bridge divides.

[01:00:53] JEFF GAINES: You know, I was thinking about that, going back to the question that was asked about people that share your views. You know, are you nervous about that? And I was just sitting here thinking that, I know somebody's gonna listen to this interview and say, well, you know, I think he's black. And, you know, that thing that he said about critical race theory, you know, he should feel this way because he's black. And that's one of my fears, too. When I first moved out Northwest, I had a gentleman tell me, who's African American as well. Well, why don't you want to live down by Wichita State or in a community? Why don't you want to live amongst your people? And I am living amongst my people because all people are Americans. So that's one thing that, going back to that question that I thought of as an example of that. So, yeah, I share the same thing being out in my neighborhood as well, too. So.

[01:01:56] JULIA FABRIS MCBRIDE: Thank you.

[01:01:57] JEFF GAINES: Thank you. It was a pleasure having that conversation. Was it everything that you expected it to be?

[01:02:07] JULIA FABRIS MCBRIDE: It was great. That was great.