Julissa (17) interviews Judge Carl Marshall. Part 2.

01:11 How do you feel that you aid your community with safety? You know, like, our whole theme is about safety and community and such. How do you think your job as a judge, or even your job before as a lawyer has aided you in aiding the community?

01:29 Well, I think when you become a lawyer, first of all, you get automatic credibility, that you one of the smartest people.

01:40 Yeah, definitely.

01:41 That you're the most law abiding person, that you have all this wisdom. And sometimes it's true, but it's not always true. People are just human. But I believe once you take on the mantle of becoming a lawyer, and especially as a judge, you have a responsibility to give back and to give back to your community. And this is why each year I participate in career days at multiple schools at different levels. I never say no unless I have a real conflict that I can't get out of or I'm out of the country, totally unavailable. And so I like to reach back and appear at these schools to speak to students, because, first of all, so they can see someone that looks like them that's in this position as judge, they know that it is attainable because they're looking at someone now. And I often have to pinch myself because I don't realize how much people have never met a judge before or communicated with one before.

02:41 You're the first judge I've ever seen.

02:43 I hear that all the time. And I gotta remind myself, yes, I know a lot of judges, but most people don't, except for standing on the other side of the bench in court, maybe as a defendant or observer or witness. And so I like to show up with the robe and the gavel and explain the criminal justice system and just teach them how they should conduct themselves when law enforcement approaches so that they remain safe and that they can also remain without any charges being brought against them. And for example, with respect to if you're getting pulled over by a police officer, a traffic stop, tell people just to remain calm. If it's at night, make sure you turn on the lights in your vehicle. Make sure you put your hands where the officer can see them, meaning on the dashboard or on the top of your steering wheel. Because often when law enforcement is approaching your car, they don't know who's in that car. They don't know if you have any weapons. They don't know what your criminal history is. If you have any criminal history, it's a lot of times they're just as afraid as you are or just as tense as you are, as they're approaching your vehicle and you're waiting, anticipating them to come to your window and ask for your credentials. And so I tried to explain to people to become and just cooperate, handle whatever documentation you have. If you see that the law enforcement officer is not conducting their job in the proper manner or acting as some kind of misconduct, you can always report that later in writing. You don't have to tie to object to it at that moment because that's a no win situation. And it can escalate from becoming just a traffic stop to disorderly conduct, assault on an officer, just more serious violations or crimes even. Whereas where you were just facing a traffic violation, which would have just been a fine and you had to pay. And that often happens. And so people need to be aware that depending on how they conduct themselves, they can avoid more serious consequences when having interaction with law enforcement.

05:02 Sounds great. It seems like you use a lot of education to help keep the community safe and aware of their rights and what to do in certain situations and stuff like that, I think that's honestly super important. I feel like understanding and educating yourself and having others even educate, mentor, etc. Is honestly really helpful. What is a vivid memory you have within practicing law, like being a lawyer or being a judge?

05:38 I remember there's a couple of them, but as one that comes to mind first and one as a young attorney, I had a client, it's a very nice gentleman who had some. He was mentally challenged, and I called him the Robin Hood client, because what he would do is would steal things, items from stores, and then he would give them out as gifts to people for Christmas or birthdays. And he got caught. He was charged, and I represented him. And I remember because he was such a nice guy and is such a generous guy, albeit with items that didn't belong to him. His family really came out to support him. And that's when I learned early in my career how important it is to show the family support, community support for a defendant. It changes. It helps a judge make a decision when a judge has discretion on how to sentence that individual. And so his family came to court, his minister from his church came to the court on his behalf. I had multiple letters of recommendations on his references for him to present to the court. And I remember on his sentencing day, I argued my heart out and I argued that he had never been in trouble before, he had never had a criminal record before, that he was a generous person, that he did have his. He was mentally challenged, and therefore, you know, did not always make the best judgment decisions, and that he should not be treated as a hardcore criminal and that he should not have to serve jail time. And if he does serve jail time, he should at least be able to have what we call the work release program, where you spend the night in the jail, but you're released during the day so you can work. That way you don't lose your job, your earning potential. I believe he had a young child at the time. And when I finished my argument, it pulled the heartstrings of everyone in that courtroom. His family was crying. He was crying. I had tears in my mind. I looked at the judge, and she had tears. Her eyes were watering up. And to my surprise, although that often as an attorney, you may feel that you're not going to get the result that you hope for, for your client, but you're still going to make the best argument that you can on their behalf. And I did. But when that judge made the ruling and granted my client the work release so that he didn't have to spend, you know, all of his time in jail, there wasn't a dry eye in the courtroom. And that is like my most vivid experience as a young attorney. And I was only practicing for a couple of years at that time.

08:54 Cause you won that one. You got what you wanted from that.

08:59 Yes.

08:59 That is amazing. And even to see how community, family, community within work, all sorts of communities. Cause we're all part of them. To see how important and fundamental they are, even within the court system. Cause at least for me, I don't really. I didn't think like that. I felt like, you know, when you're in the court, it's facts, facts, facts, facts. No family, no communication, none of that. It's just, this is what it is. This is what's gonna happen.

09:28 That's all it is so much more. There's so much more to it.

09:30 You're opening my eyes.

09:32 The judging her and delivering her determination decision indicated that if you have this much support from your community, what was it for me to not take a chance on you as well? You know, if your whole community is supporting you this way, then you're the right candidate for me to use my discretion in your favor. And she credited it.

10:02 Wow. Do you see that? Do you see that happen as a judge? Do you see tons of community? I guess, like, it'd be outreach or something like, come in. Does that sometimes even change how you might sentence someone? I guess, sure, I see it.

10:18 I don't think it happens enough. I don't think enough people understand how important it is because it helps the court to see you as a human being, you know, and you're not just another subject matter or number. When you come to court as a young person, you should come to court dressed appropriately in appropriate attire, because that tells the court that you're taking the process seriously and that you respect the institution of the court. And you should bring your parents. If you have parents that are alive or whether your parents are together or not, period, they should be there to help support. Because at the end of the day, judges are human beings, too. Under those roles, police officers, under the badges and under the uniforms, they're just human beings. And we're all affected by human emotions. And so I think that it is an important aspect of navigating the criminal justice system that is underutilized. You know, bring your support because you want to see. You want the court to see the person more than just the crime that was committed, but the whole person. It's entirely circumstances that brought them to that point.

11:47 That's really interesting. I would have never thought of that. I would have never thought that that would be something that people like judges and such would care about to see. And even for you to say that it's an underused tool, even, is even more interesting. I would have thought about that.

12:06 So sometimes as a judge. Sometimes as a judge, the decision is very close and you're not always sure that you're making the exact right decision. So having someone, for example, if you're on defense, as opposed to whether you should give this person another chance, having that family support and community support behind the person gives that judge more confidence that they're making the right decision or that they're using. They're making the right decision to decide to use that discretion for this particular person as opposed to someone else.

12:38 That's interesting. So do you believe that? I guess our job as a community is to just come in and support and just go to the courts and.

12:47 Such, come in and advocate and advocate, show the court who the whole person is and what the mitigating circumstances might be. Yes, they committed this particular act, but these are the other good acts that they've committed over the years, uplifting to the kind of balance it out.

13:10 That's so. That's amazing. It's like we are even creating a story even within court, where I feel like most people believe it's just about facts. And I feel like you're telling me like it's not just the facts, it's the story you create with the facts is right. Yeah. That's great. How do you take care of yourself as a judge. And how did you take care of yourself as a lawyer? Because I know that vicarious trauma is definitely a thing. So how do you take care of yourself hearing all of these things?

13:40 Well, as a lawyer, as a judge, you're used to hearing about other people's problems and difficulties, and you always in problem solving mode, which takes up a lot of mental energy. So I find myself to be mentally fatigued sometimes. You'd be physically fatigued? Because I work a lot of hours as a judge. I'm on call 24 hours for calls to issue warrants for a person's arrest, to issue a search warrant for a home because maybe a weapon might have been involved for domestic violence cases where woman or male or any person would be requesting a restraining order against another person based on something that may have happened during their relationship.

14:34 Mm hmm.

14:36 And so. So even when I work during the week and I'm physically off, you're never really off as a judge because you're on call and at least in the municipal court for those type of calls that come through. So it can be taxing because you always are dealing with very serious issues, disputes between parties. It could be between neighbors, it could between husband and wife, brother and sister, mother, daughters, son and father. It's just. It's just so an array of issues and disputes that can happen. What I do to care for myself, to clear my head, I take trips in that whole way like I just did when I was away for a week in the beautiful island of Barbados. You know, just walking the beach, jumping in the water, just kind of clearing my head. I have to do that so often. You have to remove yourself from the environment to re energize your batteries, to be able to come back so that you can have the patience to fully listen to the issues at play. And I find that when I don't do that, I don't make the best decisions. And because you're not able to take it in, imagine we were sitting here in this interview, and I'm speaking, and at the end of whatever I said, you look at me like, what did he say? Because you just couldn't take it all in, because your mind is on other things. So you have to leave enough space in your mind to accept the incoming complaints and to balance that with the laws, you know, and the rules and regulations and the discretion that you have as a judge to make the best decision. You can't make the best decision if your mind. If you feel like you're just overwhelmed.

16:47 Yeah.

16:47 Or if your mind is on other things, you have to be able to be able to focus and so that you don't miss anything. That was the hardest thing. Transition. Hardest thing about the transition from being a private attorney and public defender to elevating to becoming a judge is that as a private attorney or public defender, or even a prosecutor, you are arguing like one side of the case, and you're focusing just on the facts and issues that come with that one side of the case. But when you're a judge, you gotta hear from the private defense attorney, or public defendant and the prosecutor and the witnesses, and you're balancing that with the statutes and the laws and the rules and case law, you know, and your own experiences as a human being, because we are product of our experiences. And you're applying all of that and juggling all of it at one time. And sometimes you could be listening to a case, and you as a judge, and you may think, oh, this person is guilty, I'm going to find them guilty. But yet there might be a witness that makes a particular statement, or gives certain testimony or a particular piece of evidence that's introduced and admitted that changes your mind about that. You said, wow, I thought this person was guilty, but they actually are nothing. Or you can be thinking they're not guilty, and I would have, I'm gonna find them not guilty. But at the end of the case, you realize, oh, no, this person actually is guilty. And it changes. So you go one direction and you change, but you won't catch that if you're not present. If you're not present and you end up making the wrong decision.

18:33 Do you feel like within the. More specifically, being a judge, do you feel like within your career as a judge, that there are enough programs or anything to really help with the self care, not just taking vacations, but day to day self care and to keep your mind. Okay. Sane, to be able to be present. Do you feel like there's enough of that?

18:58 Well, I think there should be more. You know, obviously, you know, taking the time to exercise is always a good stress reliever. Anything that helps with stress relief would be good for a judge or attorney to practice. Yeah. And whether that means taking a walk, doing other, more strenuous exercise, keeping a proper diethouse, getting enough sleep, definitely. Because if you're a defendant and your life is being affected by a decision that this judge makes, you want to know that that judge had a good rest the night before and is not tired and going to fall asleep in your case, or not really be present because they failed to get rest or they're hungry. I tell my staff all the time, if I come into court and you see me, you know, acting a little different than I normally would, ask me did I have lunch today? Don't let me go on that bench hungry or tired or agitated about something, you know, if you notice something different about, let me know, because I may not recognize it. You know, maybe I'm just hungry, and I'm like, you know what? Order me a salad.

20:23 Yes.

20:24 Before I go on this bench, because it actually does affect your decision making.

20:28 Yeah.

20:28 If you're not comfortable because you're tired or you're hungry or you're irritated because maybe you just took a call or something that was disturbing or something personal occurred, you know, and so you have to know, as a judge, you know what? I'm not gonna be. I won't make my best decision today. Let me maybe recuse myself in the case or call another judge to hear the case, you know, or adjourn that matter, because it's dealing with certain complex matters that you just feel like you're not up to. There are times that I've come to court and I said, listen, folks, today is not the day that I have the most patience. So I really need everyone to follow the protocol and the rules of the court. So if you find that I'm being short, don't take it personal. I'm just letting you know ahead of time. I just don't have the patience that I normally would have on this particular day for whatever reason, you know, not going to the personal issues. But I always just want folks to say, today is the day that I need you to be very attentive and follow the rules. Yeah. Because people sometimes, you know, they're watching other people's cases, and sometimes it's funny, you know, someone might find humor in it, you know, and start laughing, not taking it seriously. But this is a day that we're not gonna tolerate any of that. Okay.

21:47 Yeah. So you. In a sense, you set those regulations yourself. You make sure that, like, within your co. Within your court. Sorry about that. You make sure that you're taking care of yourself so that these things don't affect your decision making. Thus affecting those people's lives is obviously incredibly important.

22:05 Right. For example, in court, sometimes you have someone who may act out of. They might yell, they might use some profanity, they might be disrespectful to the court, all because they had a bad day.

22:17 Mm hmm.

22:18 And everyone's entitled to have a bad day. But what I say to that individual is, I'm gonna have you have a seat. I want you to think about what you're doing and what you're saying and whether you think this is gonna help you today in this court. This is gonna help me make this best decision for you. And normally they'll say, no, it's not, and I'm sorry, or they'll take their time to come back and say, judge, I'm sorry, I just had a rough day. And I'll say, well, imagine if I had a rough day and I came here and I made all my decisions based on the fact that I had a rough day, causing everyone else to have a really bad day. It would not be fair.

22:53 Yeah, yeah.

22:55 Would not be fair. And it would not be something that I'm supposed to do, which is to dispense justice impartially, fairly upon everyone.

23:08 That's really interesting. Thank you. Maybe. Thanks. So sorry.

23:14 It's okay.

23:16 Honestly, I think you've answered, actually all my questions so far. You've been really wonderful to interview. Do you have anything else you'd like to say?

23:26 Actually, the only thing I would like to say is that I have had a very rewarding career. Like I said, it's been 22 years. I was appointed as the first african american judge in the city of Elizabeth. 300 year history.

23:39 Congratulations.

23:40 The city and I would encourage, especially youth, to believe in themselves. When I was approached about the judgeship, someone came and said, well, Carl, there's going to be a vacancy on the bench, a judge position at chair. The mayor wants interviewed diverse candidates. If you know of anyone person of color that is interested and qualified, you know, please let us know. That's what they said to me. And I said, yeah, thanks for that. Yes, I know someone me, and I still told, like, ten other people that said, one of us in the community needs to get this position. And a year later, I was the one that was being appointed as the judge. And it is, you know, it's just amazing because my family was there to support me. My friends were there. The community especially was there. And I remember one of the guests who witnessed my swearing sent me a message the next day. They said, when you got. When everyone else got sworn in that day, they brought maybe their wife or their spouse. Husband and their spouse or their kid or kids. And when you came up, the whole village came up with you. And so I think it's important that young people believe in themselves and that the community, family, friends, that you support each other, because if you believe in yourself. There's no ceiling. There's no limit to what you can attain in life. And I try to espouse that when I speak to young people every year.

25:44 Thank you. Thank you so much for your interview.