Juniper Leherissey and Stephen Brogden

[00:06] JUNIPER LEHERISSEY: My name is Juniper Leherissey and I am 50 years old. Today's date is March 29, 2023, and I am in Taos, New Mexico. I am speaking with Steve or Stephen Brogden and he was a former director of the Harwood Museum of Art, which I am the current director of today.

[00:29] STEPHEN BROGDEN: Right. And I'm Steve Brogden I'm 74 years old. Today is March 29, 2023. I'm in southern California, in Agra Hills, California, and I am speaking with Juniper, who is currently director of the Harwood. And I was director in the mid 1970s.

[00:56] JUNIPER LEHERISSEY: So great to speak with you, and it was great earlier this year to learn that you were a former director, because I don't think that all came out this year. So can you tell me the exact years you served and paint a picture of what it was like when you started your tenure at the Harvard?

[01:17] STEPHEN BROGDEN: I was there in August of 1972, and then I left in the end of December in 1975. So it was about three and a half, not quite three and a half years. And it was. It was an interesting. I was very young when I. When I came. It was my first job out of library school, but it was. I had been in Taos before. I came to Taos to work on the. The ranch of EA fashion, Ea Branham at the time, and her father was a very well known artist worldwide, and was. I had just graduated from the University of Iowa in English and was planning to go to library school in the fall. And in the meantime, a friend of mine had come through and said, you know, I'm going to be in Taos working on this ranch. And so I thought, well, this would be an opportunity for me to come. So that's that. I did. I spent the summer there, went back to start library school, but then quit after a semester because I miss New Mexico so much. And then years, years later, I went down to the Harwood to ask about a part time job, and they asked if I would be interested in a full time job. Tony Tarleton, who was the director there for many years, was getting ready to retire, and they wanted somebody who knew Taos, and they also wanted someone who had a master's degree in library science. And I said, well, I'm partway there. And this is so unusual, because they said, if you'll go back and finish the master's degree, we will hold the director's job for you. I mean, that would never happen today, I don't think. But I was very grateful for that. And it was. It was life changing for me. What what made it unusual was, at the time, it was a public library and a fine arts museum, and the fact that the University of New Mexico owned a public library was very unusual and still would be today. But that was one of the things that attracted me to it. That's a long way to get to your question, Juniper, but I hope I got there eventually.

[03:33] JUNIPER LEHERISSEY: Well, and you answered. I was going to ask you how you got to Taos, too. So that was it. So Tony Tarleton was still the director when you. When you. Right, right. Before you came in.

[03:44] STEPHEN BROGDEN: Right, right. And she'd been there for, I want to say, 20 or 30 years. She'd been there for a long time.

[03:51] JUNIPER LEHERISSEY: Right. No, she was. She was. I forget the exact years, but she was after Spud Johnson, I believe.

[03:58] STEPHEN BROGDEN: Yeah, that. I'll rely on your memory for that.

[04:03] JUNIPER LEHERISSEY: And so, like, what was the Harwood like at that time? I mean, when I was a kid, it was. The big library was in the John Gamim area, and that was the public library, and the children's library was over in their old house on the other side of the building. But when you were there now, just incidentally, August 1972 was the year I was born. So you basically started when I was born.

[04:34] STEPHEN BROGDEN: Two memorable starts.

[04:36] JUNIPER LEHERISSEY: You couldn't read when you started at the Harwood. So. But what was the. What was it like? Because it has. It's had so many configurations as a building.

[04:47] STEPHEN BROGDEN: Well, the children's library was, as you go in the front door, and the front door is different now than it was then. But you would go in, the children's area was on the right. And I remember all sorts of paintings by Gisela Leffler that were up in that area. And then you would go further back past the stacks, past the fiction, and then there was a room, kind of a special collections room, where all the southwest materials were found. And one thing that I love to look at, and I would look at it every. You know, every now and again, there is a book called Taos Pueblo with photographs by Ansel Adams and text by Mary Austin. When it was published, Mary Austin was the reason everybody wanted it. Ansel Adams was unknown at the time. So as progressed, that got reversed. And I hope someone has that book still, either the library or the Harwood.

[05:51] JUNIPER LEHERISSEY: So we do have. Is it. Was it a photo book? So I think that's actually in our current collection, and it has a photo of Tony Lujan and others in itheme, the fine art. Because I remember the fine art stacks, or the stacks, you couldn't take home a lot of those went to the Southwest art or Southwest research center, and they're actually coming back for our centennial and being. We're doing a little mini library in there with, like, original versions of. Signed. Signed from. There's one sign from DH Lawrence to Mabel Dodge. And I think it might. I don't know if it's sons and lovers or one of those books, but, like, we. I mean, because Mabel Dodge donated so many of those books to the library, that permanent stack the stacks of books that are incredible, unlike any small town. So I'll continue with my questions.

[06:53] STEPHEN BROGDEN: This was fun.

[06:54] JUNIPER LEHERISSEY: So what. What was the. What were the major challenges you faced? Obviously, you were straight out of school, so this was your first professional job as a library, running a library. If not, maybe even working in a library, who knows? But what were your challenges that you faced?

[07:10] STEPHEN BROGDEN: One of the things that. I'm looking at my notes here, one of the things that I'm most proud of is, while I was there, we got the hardwood placed on the. I want to get this right. The New Mexico Register of cultural properties. And that was the first thing that needed to happen before it went on to the US. What's it called? Register of.

[07:37] JUNIPER LEHERISSEY: Historic.

[07:39] STEPHEN BROGDEN: Yeah, register of Historic Places. That happened in 1977, right after I left. I was very happy to see that happen. That was one of the things that. That was a priority for me also at the time. There was a. An EDA grant, economic Development Administration grant for that I applied for to renovate the building. And it was the application itself, the deadline. The application had to be sent to Austin, Texas. And because we were running short of time, I actually hand carried it to Austin. And I think the grant was for 300,000 or some such. But it was kind of a comedy of errors, because we were making copies of the grant in the division of continuing education in Albuquerque, and it was late on a Friday, and the copy machine broke. So I thought, oh, my God, you know, here we go. So we finally got copies made. I flew to Austin. I had had friends there who picked me up. They picked me up in a car. We got rear ended by somebody, and I couldn't open the trunk, which contained the grant, my suitcase. But we eventually got the. Got it open, and I hand carried it on a Monday. And the grant came through in 1977. So those kinds of things were high on my list of things we needed to do. One thing I was also proud of is we started continuing education classes. Then we started classes in conversational Spanish, which I took. And it was very helpful. And also some art history classes that.

[09:30] JUNIPER LEHERISSEY: Formerly connected with UNM at that time.

[09:33] STEPHEN BROGDEN: At the university through continuing education. They weren't. They weren't. I don't think you could get university credit for it.

[09:43] JUNIPER LEHERISSEY: Right.

[09:44] STEPHEN BROGDEN: I'm hazy on that.

[09:45] JUNIPER LEHERISSEY: But, I mean, Taos, we didn't have. There wasn't a branch campus here until decades later. So there was the Taos. There was just like, a little tiny micro educational space that was part of UNM early on.

[10:02] STEPHEN BROGDEN: Right.

[10:02] JUNIPER LEHERISSEY: But not an academic.

[10:04] STEPHEN BROGDEN: Right. Yeah. This was more for, I think, just for community interest and that sort of thing. And I was. I was very pleased about that. And we also started. And this, this I had to really dredge my memory. We started the friends of the Harwood in 1974.

[10:24] JUNIPER LEHERISSEY: Okay.

[10:25] STEPHEN BROGDEN: And the. It. Here's. Here's a story. It replaced. I don't know if it replaced, but we had the light. The Harwood advisory board, which was as close to a governing board as we got it, was. It was appointed by the board of regents. Dorothea Brandenburg was on that. Okay. Still. And then the. There was also a library board, and the chief kingpins of that were Henry Sauerwein, who was with the Wurlitzer foundation, and Bertie Phillips. They were, they were good buddies at that time. That late.

[11:06] JUNIPER LEHERISSEY: They were still involved at that time. Wow.

[11:08] STEPHEN BROGDEN: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, well, what's funny is, after the second or third meeting that we had, both Henry and Burton resigned. And I was in a panic. I thought, oh, my God, you know, I've just been here a few months. These two guys have resigned. But then later I had people tell me that they were hoping, they'd been hoping for years that those two would resign from the board. And I don't remember the details of that.

[11:42] JUNIPER LEHERISSEY: I mean, Burt Phillips was on the founding board of the Harwood Museum of Art, and Brandon and Dorothy Brandenburg was involved when Lucy Harwood was still living in 1938. So because she was instrumental in help, like, I mean, Lucy was still alive and kind of negotiating with UNM, the University of New Mexico, in, when the john. When the John got me, when the building came to UNM, and also when the John got mean edition was done, she was the one making the decisions and overseeing that all. But. So she was involved from the appointment of Lucy Harwood until that time, which is. Is a long time. That's amazing.

[12:30] STEPHEN BROGDEN: She was involved after I, after I left, so she was still very involved. And there's one, I've been hesitating whether or not I should tell this story, because it doesn't reflect well on me. But when I resign. When I resigned Dorothy. And this shows how young I was. Dorothy threw a very nice party for me at her house. All the. Everybody who'd been involved with. With the Harwood was. Was there. But I was so young, I guess I. I didn't realize my responsibilities at that in my mind. I'd resigned and I left. So I left the party early.

[13:09] JUNIPER LEHERISSEY: Oh, no.

[13:10] STEPHEN BROGDEN: And. And, you know, she said some very nice things about me, and I did not respond. Usually you thank everybody who was there. And I just. I was horrified years later, and I tried to. I ran into her years later and apologized to her, but she. I don't think she accepted the apology.

[13:33] JUNIPER LEHERISSEY: So why did you leave then? Were you. Were you ready to get out of there when you resigned?

[13:38] STEPHEN BROGDEN: No, it was. I think I probably had. I don't remember. You know, I don't remember. Maybe I'd like to think it was a date of some sort, but, I.

[13:48] JUNIPER LEHERISSEY: Mean, you were like when you're twenties, right?

[13:50] STEPHEN BROGDEN: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So. But then there's kind of a follow up to that. Just about ten years ago, I came to Taos and I went to the mission gallery to see Rena Rosequist. She was a good friend, and I told her that story. And I said, rena, this has been bothering me for decades. And she said, steve, I think it's time to let it go.

[14:16] JUNIPER LEHERISSEY: I could see Rena saying that, and.

[14:18] STEPHEN BROGDEN: I said, you know what? I think you're right. And that was really a transformative conversation because after. Because it'd been worrying me for decades.

[14:27] JUNIPER LEHERISSEY: And there's not only that you could.

[14:29] STEPHEN BROGDEN: Do about it, you know, she came through. So anyway, I hesitated to tell that.

[14:34] JUNIPER LEHERISSEY: Story because, you know, we all make mistakes. So can you tell me what the relationship of the Harwood was to Taos during your time?

[14:47] STEPHEN BROGDEN: How the town of Taos itself, community, like, how it.

[14:52] JUNIPER LEHERISSEY: You know, how. How it was positioned within the community from your perspective, of course, because.

[14:58] STEPHEN BROGDEN: Well, at the time, of course, there was. It was the public library, so that in my mind, that was the main thing. I loved the art collection, but other than having an art committee on one of the boards, I really wasn't that involved. I learned a lot because I was there when they would hang exhibits and so forth. But to my mind, it was more the public library and then, of course, the continuing ed classes that we did. But it was. I do remember doing some outreach. We got a grant from the state library for a program called reading is fundamental, where we were given a budget to buy books to give away. And I remember going to daycare centers with those books and the kids just loved them. I think we might have even done one of the pueblo, I'm not sure, but that was, that was a nice way to, you know, to reach out to the community. And I think one point I went to a couple senior centers. My conversational Spanish at that point was almost non existent. And so I would go out to the senior centers and it was mainly spanish speaking, which I knew, but. And we had, we had fun. I couldn't necessarily communicate with words, but we had fun. We had fun. And it was, it was just a, you know, I tried to do some outreach in addition to building up the collection. I think looking through my notes, I saw that the, the book budget just in the three years I was there went from like 1500 to almost 5000. Now, remember, that's 1970, $2. Yeah. Not these dollars. So I was, I was proud of that. And that's kind of a long answer to your question. But I think it was mainly, I saw it mainly as the library and tried to do some outreach with it.

[16:58] JUNIPER LEHERISSEY: And so did it feel like it was. Was it visited mostly by anglo patrons or was there, did a lot of the family, the hispanic families or the Pueblo community come in or how. How was it positioned?

[17:15] STEPHEN BROGDEN: I think probably mostly, mostly Anglos, but there were plenty of spanish people who. Spanish speaking people who came in. I was very flattered. One of the pages invited me to. Well, it couldn't have been her wedding because I think she was still in high school, but I was very flattered when she invited me and I met her family and that sort of thing. It was, it was, it was a nice moment.

[17:44] JUNIPER LEHERISSEY: When I was a kid at the library, there was always like. Because I would do my homework in the rooms every day after work. And so there was always the characters, the, like, Taos characters, like, so there we had, I think it was Dorothy and she had like the permanent cigarette hanging out of her mouth and she was. And did you have any of those characters that you remember who were.

[18:09] STEPHEN BROGDEN: Yeah, yeah.

[18:11] JUNIPER LEHERISSEY: As their second home aside from me?

[18:16] STEPHEN BROGDEN: Yeah, well, you were a little bit young, probably a couple years old.

[18:19] JUNIPER LEHERISSEY: I started visiting the library when I was like eight. So I think I missed you, but.

[18:24] STEPHEN BROGDEN: Yeah, well, Dennis Hopper came in one day and I, I was a big fan of his because of easy Rider, but I had to ask him to leave. He'd been drinking and he. God knows how long ago, he'd taken a bath and I asked him to leave. He wasn't real happy about it. But he did. He did leave.

[18:47] JUNIPER LEHERISSEY: That was during some of his rougher days, for sure.

[18:49] STEPHEN BROGDEN: Yeah, yeah, yeah. A good friend of mine out here, as it turns out, was in Taos around the same time I was. We didn't connect at all. But he stayed with Dennis in. In the. What's now the Mabel Lujan.

[19:04] JUNIPER LEHERISSEY: He was at the Mabel Dodge Lujan house probably during those years, huh?

[19:07] STEPHEN BROGDEN: Right, right. So that was one character and another one. This is a little different, but I. Something I remember very positively. He wasn't really a character, but Luciano Cisneros was our facilities manager, maintenance manager at the time. He and I got along really, really well. He was probably in his sixties, I was in my twenties. But sometimes we'd go into my office and we'd change positions. He'd sit in my desk and I'd sit in a chair in front of it and we just chat, chat about all kinds of stuff and that really. I don't know, it was just some touching moments. So that's. That's a character in a little different way.

[19:50] JUNIPER LEHERISSEY: Nice. Yeah.

[19:52] STEPHEN BROGDEN: And then one time, I don't remember names, I was invited to someone's house. He was a poet. He was a poet and they'd invited his wife and he had invited me to their house for. Just to spend the evening and dinner. When I got there, he wasn't there and his wife was there and we were just chatting and stuff. And when he came in, unfortunately, he'd had an awful lot to drink and he wasn't real happy with me being there, so he actually threw a knife at me. It didn't hit. He could have. I'm sure he missed me on purpose and it didn't stick or anything, but it, you know, hit the wall about 3ft to my right. So that's. That's another character that I just thought of right now, so. Yeah. Had it shared, that's for sure.

[20:49] JUNIPER LEHERISSEY: And how big was your staff at that time at the Harwood?

[20:54] STEPHEN BROGDEN: Well, I think I was the only full time person. I think there were maybe. Boy, it's hard to remember. I want. I started to say six and I'm not sure there were that many. Dixie Gillette was there, Dorothy Kepler was there for a while. Esther Schulberg. Wow, I'd forgotten her name. It wasn't a big staff and they were all part time except for me.

[21:26] JUNIPER LEHERISSEY: And were you funded then? Did unm actually fund the library or how was it funded?

[21:33] STEPHEN BROGDEN: Do you remember? I think they provide. I'm trying to remember. I'm not sure, but I think. I don't think they provided materials, the materials budget. I think that's where we were on our own with the. With the friends and the library board, but I'm not clear about that.

[21:53] JUNIPER LEHERISSEY: I don't remember was that so? I know you guys had to raise your own money, but then was the town or county support you as well?

[22:01] STEPHEN BROGDEN: The county didn't do anything for us at the time. I think the city did. They would give us, you know, money. I don't really remember that much. It wasn't a real. It wasn't a real close relationship with the city or with the town of Taos. And I compare that to where I just retired at the city of Thousand Oaks, where it was all. You know, it was all city.

[22:27] JUNIPER LEHERISSEY: A little bit different scale.

[22:31] STEPHEN BROGDEN: About the Harwood. It was so unique. I just. I just thought it was a wonderful little place. Not a little. Certainly not anymore, but, you know, because so much has happened since I left and was there.

[22:46] JUNIPER LEHERISSEY: I mean, was there. I know that in subsequent years, there was a lot of financial instability of. And kind of not sure if it was going to exist. I mean, was it. How did it feel when you were there?

[23:03] STEPHEN BROGDEN: Well, I didn't ever question that it was going to exist. I don't think the worries were that significant. But budget was always an issue. I mean, you can always use more, but I think the concerns at the time were more the physical structure that needed renovation. At the time, there were, I think, seven apartments in the complex there, all rented out to artists or local people, and I think Lucy Harwood had stipulated that in her donation that the apartments be rented to artists. Interesting.

[23:46] JUNIPER LEHERISSEY: I know that that was true for a lot of years. Is that all the. Including my office now that I'm in. This was the studio, actually. This was their studio. Yeah, but I know. I mean, I know lots of artists lived in them, but then. And then we did our artist in residency program starting in. Oh, I don't know when it started. Actually, we ended it in 2010 and converted these into office spaces. Right. Um, but, yeah. Interesting that that was a stipulation. I know lots of artists stayed there. I mean, Becky James stayed there, and Ken Price and. And happy Price stayed here initially. There's tons of artists that had lived in these apartments.

[24:29] STEPHEN BROGDEN: Yeah, yeah, no, I remember. I think Frank.

[24:34] JUNIPER LEHERISSEY: I think Vija Solomons stayed here.

[24:36] STEPHEN BROGDEN: Yeah, that could be. Could be. Yeah. Yeah. The people that were there when I was there, Ron Barsano was one. He's still around. I know the others. I well, Cam Martin, who. She has a gallery there. Or not a gallery, but a gift shop. And one of the times I was back, I dropped in to see her, and that was nice. I hadn't seen her for probably 30 or 40 years.

[25:04] JUNIPER LEHERISSEY: We're going to try and create a roster of how many people lived here. So we only have one person who was born here. Might have been during your tenure. As a matter of fact, I think she's 1976.

[25:19] STEPHEN BROGDEN: Yeah. But, yeah, again, that was part of what made the Harwood unique. There were these apartments there, and I bought my first. I bought my first piece of art from Dick Spaz, who was living there, and I saw it on his wall, and I said, dick, I've got to have that if it's for sale. He said, it's for sale. So I bought it and still have it. Well, actually, my son has it now, but I'll be getting it back pretty soon.

[25:47] JUNIPER LEHERISSEY: So aside from the artists living in the apartments, what, what other role did art play in the Harwood at the time?

[25:57] STEPHEN BROGDEN: Well, it was. There weren't very. It was mainly the permanent collection. There weren't a lot of traveling exhibits.

[26:03] JUNIPER LEHERISSEY: How big was it then? It was more.

[26:06] STEPHEN BROGDEN: Oh, boy, I couldn't get you.

[26:07] JUNIPER LEHERISSEY: I mean, it wasn't that big, right? A few hundred.

[26:11] STEPHEN BROGDEN: Yeah. There weren't a lot in storage, as I recall. It was. Everything was up on the walls. We did. Seems like we did. And I don't know if Bob Ray was behind this or if it was Earl Stroh, but someone developed some walls on wheels, so we could have that up in the main gallery area, kind of the auditorium, and we'd have the, these walls on wheels so we could have display more. More, more of the art. And I love the art part of it. I learned so much when I was there just from being around the art and talking to the artists.

[26:50] JUNIPER LEHERISSEY: What pieces were on display that you remember? Kind of the.

[26:54] STEPHEN BROGDEN: Well, there was the big one. Washington Victor Higgins winter funeral.

[27:01] JUNIPER LEHERISSEY: Right. And he put that piece there above the fireplace in 1944.

[27:05] STEPHEN BROGDEN: Yeah, yeah, I know that. So he just walked in and hung it up one day over the fireplace. Yeah. I was really surprised. It's been several years now, but there was a, an exhibit of southwestern art at the autry museum here in Los Angeles, and I went in to look at it, and there was winter funeral. It was, it was like seeing an old friend. I really. It was cool. So I don't know how that happened. I assume there was a loan, but that was. God, that, that may have been 20 years ago.

[27:38] JUNIPER LEHERISSEY: Okay. Yeah. I was gonna say we did loan it for the Mabel Dodge, but there. And I think it traveled one other time. People are very sensitive about that piece leaving the museum.

[27:50] STEPHEN BROGDEN: It's a big one. I remember the buck Dutton painting.

[27:55] JUNIPER LEHERISSEY: Yep.

[27:56] STEPHEN BROGDEN: With the profile. And there was some Helen Blumenshine. I don't think at the time we had any of Dorothy's father's burning house. Think we had anything at the time? Of course, when I was there this last summer, I saw the exhibit there and was pleased to see some fascians there, considering my contact with.

[28:24] JUNIPER LEHERISSEY: Those weren't. Wasn't our collection, unfortunately.

[28:27] STEPHEN BROGDEN: I knew that, but I was still glad to see them there they are. Beautiful. Yeah. And. Oh, there were. And I love the borella.

[28:38] JUNIPER LEHERISSEY: Yeah, you had the brellas on top of it.

[28:40] STEPHEN BROGDEN: Those are magnificent. In fact, there was a photographer at the time, winter Prather, I think his name is. I don't know how well known he was, but he offered to give me one of his. One of his photographs, and I chose one that he took of. Of Patrocinio barella. And it's still. In fact, it's hanging on my wall right behind me. Beautiful.

[29:07] JUNIPER LEHERISSEY: So, I mean, the. The existing collection was there, and they hung some of those works within the muse, within the library walls, but then upstairs in the. What was called the gallery.

[29:21] STEPHEN BROGDEN: Right.

[29:22] JUNIPER LEHERISSEY: Were you actively collecting work or doing exhibitions or anything like that?

[29:29] STEPHEN BROGDEN: No. I knew so little about art. I mean, I was learning fast, but I wouldn't have felt right doing that. Now, the. The art committee, which was Earl Stroh and some others, they. They would have done that, but I don't think. I don't think we did any. It was mainly just a permanent collection. And.

[29:53] JUNIPER LEHERISSEY: Yeah, I mean, it felt like the focus of the art shifted there, and there were. And then there was the stage still. So was there theater productions happening, or at least recitals and performances?

[30:08] STEPHEN BROGDEN: There weren't. There weren't. And I, um. I'm thinking there were some fire code reasons for that, maybe. I may be making that up. I'm not sure. But, um. For some reason, and I would have been open to it, I would have loved to see something like that. But I think there were concerns about where would we store the permanent collection if we took it down to hang some others. Uh, because there was very little storage space at the time.

[30:37] JUNIPER LEHERISSEY: Yeah, I heard it was stored behind the stage or under the stage or something.

[30:42] STEPHEN BROGDEN: Yeah. Yeah.

[30:43] JUNIPER LEHERISSEY: Terrible place for artsy.

[30:46] STEPHEN BROGDEN: Yeah. Yeah. There was a beautiful baby grand piano there. I don't know if it's still there.

[30:52] JUNIPER LEHERISSEY: The chick ring? Yeah.

[30:54] STEPHEN BROGDEN: Yeah, but is it still there?

[30:56] JUNIPER LEHERISSEY: Well, I think that's the one downstairs. Now that is, was. It was dedicated or was given to Lucy Harwood. Right. Or gifted. Was dedicated from someone, I think that's still in the galleries. Actually, we don't use it as our main concert piano anymore. We have a different one. So the theater really wasn't active at that time, or even the stage as a.

[31:19] STEPHEN BROGDEN: No, no, I don't think we ever did. Boy, my memory is vague. We may have done a piano concert. Noel Farand, f a r r a n d, was a composer in Taos at the time. I think he stayed at the world, sir. He may have done a concert, but it certainly wasn't a main thrust.

[31:45] JUNIPER LEHERISSEY: I mean, I can remember when, probably in the eighties, more than later, but, like, late, late seventies or eighties. I saw. I mean, definitely piano concert, piano recitals type of thing. I got Peter Rabbit performing on stage and whirling dervishes one time. I don't know.

[32:08] STEPHEN BROGDEN: I'm sorry I missed that.

[32:10] JUNIPER LEHERISSEY: There was all kinds of weird stuff happening on that stage. When I remember that was a little bit later. It came back a little bit. Of course, now it's a gallery space, so it's totally shifted.

[32:22] STEPHEN BROGDEN: Well, you've got the new auditorium, too.

[32:26] JUNIPER LEHERISSEY: And that was part of creating the auditorium, was kind of carrying that spirit forward, because that was important in the creation of the Harwood. Right, right. I think, you know, feel free to chime in, but I have one. Just the hopes for the future of the Harwood, or the future of the Harwood Inn tows.

[32:52] STEPHEN BROGDEN: Well, I would say keep doing what you're doing. You know, you're. I know you're having concerts there. You're bringing in exhibits. More, more, more. No, that's. That's great. That's great. Oh, you know, one thing I thought of as I glance at my notes here, you're asking about characters. I don't know the name of this person, but I learned a. A lesson that I was aware of intellectually, but it didn't really click until some guy came in, very scruffy, you know, hadn't bathed for a while. It wasn't Dennis Hopper, but someone came in and he took a few things and left. He was. Hadn't bathed for a while. And then someone said, you know who that is? And I said, no, I don't. And they gave a name. It didn't mean anything to me, but it turned out to be someone who had a pretty significant trust fund. And so, you know, we all know this now, but the whole idea of, you can't judge a book by its cover, you know? So ever since then, I've never done that. I've never judged anybody, especially in tows.

[34:01] JUNIPER LEHERISSEY: Right.

[34:02] STEPHEN BROGDEN: Especially in Taos. Yeah.

[34:04] JUNIPER LEHERISSEY: Easy to become a hippie if you're a trust fund kid.

[34:07] STEPHEN BROGDEN: Well, I was there. I was there. Yeah. No Taos. And I still wear this silver blaze it. I bought it in Santa Fe, and it reminds me of New Mexico. And I wear it every day. I also subscribe to the Taos news for many, many years, and I still get their weekly updates. So now, when I was there, people would say, you don't get anything from the Taos news. But I think that's changed.

[34:35] JUNIPER LEHERISSEY: Police slaughters, at least. I mean, actually, we used to, like, cut out the police blotters because they're hilarious.

[34:44] STEPHEN BROGDEN: Yeah. Oh, I still look at them. I'm looking over my notes here to see if there's anything that I wanted to mention that I think you know. Well, there was one quote that I. A mentor to me was a gentleman named Lawrence Clark Powell. He was a giant in the library world. The UCLA undergrad library is named for him. He would come to Santa Fe every summer, and it was he who was responsible for me teaching at the University of Arizona for a couple summers. And he. He published something in Westways. It was in January 75. He says heading the Harwood is a lanky, long haired Iowa transplant. Steve Brogden another of today's idealistic and practical young people who are continually renewing my faith in mankind. And I was very proud of that. I had hair back then, too.

[35:40] JUNIPER LEHERISSEY: Long hair, apparently. So as you were afar, but as you were, like, observing the Harwood from afar later, did you. When did you become aware of its transition to a museum?

[35:58] STEPHEN BROGDEN: Oh, I. I wasn't aware when it actually happened. I just don't remember. I don't remember specifically when I heard that the library had moved to the city building over there. I don't remember. But I was. I had mixed feelings about it. I kind of did away with the uniqueness of it. A public library owned by a university. But it made sense. It made sense to do it. The town should be supporting the library, not the university. But I really don't remember exactly when I knew, but, you know, I had those. Those feelings of, well, progress, but, you know.

[36:43] JUNIPER LEHERISSEY: When was the first time you visited it as a museum.

[36:47] STEPHEN BROGDEN: Probably. Well, I know I was there in 2011.

[36:52] JUNIPER LEHERISSEY: Okay, so just so you really only saw it in its new iteration with the big expansion and everything.

[37:00] STEPHEN BROGDEN: Right?

[37:01] JUNIPER LEHERISSEY: Yeah. That's interesting.

[37:03] STEPHEN BROGDEN: I was there in 2011, and I don't remember when before that, but it's, you know, I was glad to see it. I love what's happened. I think it's, it's just, it's a, it's a real landmark, and I think it's something that, you know, the whole world should know about. It's really unique, and you've done a great job with it.

[37:26] JUNIPER LEHERISSEY: Thank you. It's, you know, it's interesting to come back to your hometown. And, of course, I came back from, I left in 1989, and it was still a library. Right. And I knew it only is the Harvard Public Library and then went to college and then came back, and I'm like, come in one day and I go upstairs and there's an exhibition and there's a Chuck close of Agnes Martin there, and I'm like, where am I? Like a DH, you know, a Diebenkorn painting and all these, like, important paintings. And I was like, okay, how is this, you know, the Harvard Public Library? Because I missed that transition time, that time wherever it was, becoming a museum in that nineties timeframe. And then, of course, you know, I didn't move back to New Mexico until 2002, and I don't think it was really on my radar. But by 2004, I was already involved as a volunteer. And then 2008, I was hired, and then I have a master's in arts management, nonprofit management. So when I came back, I was like, okay, this is a place I want to work.

[38:44] STEPHEN BROGDEN: Yeah.

[38:44] JUNIPER LEHERISSEY: Yeah, here I am.

[38:47] STEPHEN BROGDEN: It's a perfect fit. And you've done very well with it.

[38:51] JUNIPER LEHERISSEY: Well, I'm building on the shoulders of other people who've taken it.

[38:56] STEPHEN BROGDEN: Three years, 50 years ago. Yeah.

[38:59] JUNIPER LEHERISSEY: Well, I mean, I was there for eight years in fundraising and now almost four years as the director. But it's definitely, it's a fun project.

[39:11] STEPHEN BROGDEN: Oh, I'm sure.

[39:15] JUNIPER LEHERISSEY: Well, thank you so much for taking the time to share these stories. I think it's great to get a little flavor of how it evolved. And we have a few back to back interviews now because Jim Levy was interviewed and David Caffe and they, I believe, were your successors, although there's a little bit of a gap between you.

[39:38] STEPHEN BROGDEN: I don't think they came immediately afterwards. I don't remember who came.

[39:42] JUNIPER LEHERISSEY: It was a couple years after you because you said 75. I think he came years later.

[39:50] STEPHEN BROGDEN: There was a brief time Cynthia Kellen was, was there. She was working part time when I was there. And, yeah, I don't remember who came immediately after me. I'd left to go to go get a PhD, but Bill and Bonnie Hearn, who I'd been friends with, asked me to be their road manager.

[40:16] JUNIPER LEHERISSEY: Okay.

[40:17] STEPHEN BROGDEN: Road manager, PhD. Road man, PhD. And when you're a single guy in your twenties, you know which one you chose. Yeah. I plead guilty. I plead guilty.

[40:28] JUNIPER LEHERISSEY: Well, I guess. I guess we have to bring our conversation to a close here. But it's been a pleasure.

[40:34] STEPHEN BROGDEN: It's been a delight. It's been a delight. And I hope to see you again soon.

[40:38] JUNIPER LEHERISSEY: Come now for a centennial. I would love to come in June or June. June to January.

[40:43] STEPHEN BROGDEN: So here we go. There we go.

[40:45] JUNIPER LEHERISSEY: Thank you.

[40:46] STEPHEN BROGDEN: Thank you very much. Jennifer.