Jyotsna Raj and Indra Raj

[00:04] INDRA RAJ: Okay. My name is Indra raj. I am 37 years old. Today's date is November 13, 2023. We're recording @ CU Boulder in Colorado, and I'm here with my mother, Jyotsna Raj.

[00:21] JYOTSNA RAJ: So my name is Jyotsna Raj, and my age is 71. And today's date is November 13, 2023. And we are at CU Boulder in Colorado, and I'm here with my daughter, Indra Raj.

[00:39] INDRA RAJ: Great. So we can start with these questions. I guess so.

[00:46] JYOTSNA RAJ: Actually, can I start? Because I would like to talk about what my religious identity is.

[00:53] INDRA RAJ: Yeah, of course.

[00:55] JYOTSNA RAJ: So I was thinking about it, and I realized that most people are born into a religion. It's their parents religion, and they're born into that family, and then that is their religion. So they don't really choose it. But. And so I was born into a Hindu family, and therefore I identify as a Hindu. But sometimes people, when they grow older, change their religion. They choose the religion they want to belong to. And I would say that if I were to have to choose a religion, I would still choose to be a Hindu. And as for my religious identity, I'm not at all a religious person, but I see Hinduism as my way of life. And I'm very glad I'm born into this very liberal tradition which allows me a great deal of freedom of thought. So I want to know how you would identify.

[01:59] INDRA RAJ: Yeah, I think that's right. What you said is that you're often kind of forced into something by nature of your birth and what your parents did, basically. And so if I think about when I was young, I mean, it's pretty complicated, I think, for me, because, you know, I was a immigrant or you guys are immigrants. I was born in America as an Indian American person. And so there's all sorts of my identity that I think are pulled in two different directions. But the way I look says a lot about who I am, I think, to people, for better or worse in America. And people would often ask me, you know, what is your religion? Which at the time I didn't really question. I was little, because I don't know, it's just assumed that you have a religion, which I have a problem with. I have a lot of problems with organized religion in general, which I know we've talked about. But that's evolved over time. And when I was a kid, I would say I'm Hindu, because that's what I mean. I guess that's what I was. You and Pa both practice Hindu practices, and we celebrate some of the Holidays and things. But it was something I always felt sort of confused about because I've never felt connected to it in any sort of spiritual way, which I actually appreciate that you and Pa never forced me into anything. It was really more of, like, a cultural identity, I think, than anything else. And over time, it's really changed. I'm one of those people who. I don't know if it's changed. It's just sort of. I've become more aware of how I really feel about it, which is that I don't consider myself a Hindu. I think it's. It's a culture that I grew up in. It's a religion whose practices sometimes I practice as well, but not in a religious way or a spiritual way. And then, you know. So I think probably if there was to be a word to describe what I am in a religious context, it would be an atheist. But I've always found the word atheist has a very negative connotation in our white Christian American society. And, you know, in India these days, Hinduism is the thing. And if you're not that, you know, that's a problem too, or whatever. But I really don't believe in God per se. I don't know what's out there. I heard some definition of atheism versus being agnostic is that when you're atheist, you know there's not a God, and when you're agnostic, you aren't sure. But I don't think I'm agnostic, but I don't.

[05:10] JYOTSNA RAJ: So do you know that there is not a God?

[05:13] INDRA RAJ: I don't know.

[05:14] JYOTSNA RAJ: But, like, then you are an agnostic and not an atheist.

[05:17] INDRA RAJ: But then there's this whole narrative around that being, like, spiritual or.

[05:21] JYOTSNA RAJ: No, I'm not at all. An agnostic simply means that you live in a state of sort of almost like limbo because you don't have a belief one way or the other.

[05:33] INDRA RAJ: I think I. No, maybe I am an atheist. I really don't think there's a God. I think that. I think that this perception of God as shown in movies and through Christianity and things is this, like, man in the sky or whatever.

[05:49] JYOTSNA RAJ: But that is only a perception.

[05:52] INDRA RAJ: So I don't believe that's real at all. I don't know. But I don't think that there is, like, one power that's, like, making everything happen. I don't think that. So I think I'm atheist, but I just don't like that word. And. But I guess that's what I am. I don't know And I think that. And I take issue, I think, with someone's spiritual life automatically meaning that they're a moral person as well. Because while I don't consider myself particularly spiritual in the typical religious sense, I think I'm a very moral person. I have. I pride myself on having high moral integrity. I try to do good in the world. I try to treat people with respect and kindness, but I'm not. It's not happening through a religious mode or context for me. And I think that often people don't see that or understand that that's possible. So that's kind of a long, meandering answer, but that's a good one.

[07:02] JYOTSNA RAJ: And I just look back at your childhood and, you know, we did follow Hindu rituals, and I enjoy Hindu ritual. Like, recently, we have been celebrating the holiday of Diwali.

[07:16] INDRA RAJ: Yeah.

[07:16] JYOTSNA RAJ: And when I went to your home, you wanted us to do some of the things we do on Diwali. So I actually really appreciate the rituals in Hinduism because they all have meanings, and sometimes they even have very practical meanings. Like, for instance, Diwali comes after the period of the monsoon when everything is very damp and moldy. And on one of the days of Diwali, you're supposed to clean your whole house and present it as clean after the monsoons, because Diwali always follows the monsoon season. So it is, in a way, a very practical kind of, you know, ritual that we follow.

[07:59] INDRA RAJ: Yeah. Rituals and traditions.

[08:00] JYOTSNA RAJ: Yes. But I want to ask you this. When you were growing up, we never really talked to you about Hindu belief. No, we never did. And there are children who are Indian American who go to the equivalent of Sunday school, where they learn kind of quite, you know, systematically about Hindu belief and the Hindu religion.

[08:32] INDRA RAJ: Yeah.

[08:34] JYOTSNA RAJ: And, you know, there was such a program here in Boulder. Do you think you would have liked to join that or did that. Not even.

[08:47] INDRA RAJ: I am glad you didn't force me into that. But I also think it comes from who you and Pa are. I mean, and this is a question I have for you. I mean, Pa seems to have a real religious life.

[09:01] JYOTSNA RAJ: Yes.

[09:02] INDRA RAJ: But it's very private. I mean, he talks about it, but he's not at all assuming that we need to be believing everything he believes. No, but for you, it's. It's always seemed to me. And I want to know how. What is from your perspective, some of the kind of, like, rituals and traditions and some of the, like, superstitious stuff seems kind of important to you, like, doing them just in case you should be doing them, like you know, Karvachad for Pa, like observing this day so that he doesn't fall dead or whatever. And then you ended up doing it on the wrong day. And you know, like, I think that it's always seemed like there's that. But you always tell the story also about how the one about man praying to their. Or God praying to his creator.

[10:00] JYOTSNA RAJ: This was something that my mother told me.

[10:03] INDRA RAJ: Yeah.

[10:04] JYOTSNA RAJ: So you can tell the story.

[10:05] INDRA RAJ: Well, you tell it, you tell it better.

[10:07] JYOTSNA RAJ: Well, my mother was talking about a very, very good man, morally good, who led a very good life on earth. And when he died, he went up to heaven and there he was received by the angels. And because he was so extraordinarily good, he was immediately supposed to go to have an audience with God. And they go to a chamber where God is supposed. That's God's room and the door is closed. So this good man asked the angel that, why is this? What is he doing? So the angel says, he is praying. So the good man asks, he is praying. Sort of. He's surprised. It's a question. And the angel says, yes, he is praying to his creator, man.

[10:58] INDRA RAJ: Yeah.

[10:59] JYOTSNA RAJ: So this is what my mother told me. And I totally agree. I don't. I am not a person with a religious life. So the rituals I enjoy are part of my cultural identity. And even the superstitions, you know, I'm a very rational person really. So those superstitions are very tongue in cheek for me. I don't really believe it, that if I didn't do Karvachot, I would fall down dead. So. And I think this is a little bit again my own family history, because from my grandparents time, my family was of very reformist Hindu tradition called the Arya Samaj, that did not believe in worshiping actual idols and deities, that believed in a spiritual life. And all the social aspects of Hinduism which I really deplore, they worked against. They did not have caste discrimination. And they had the process of widow remarriage, which I consider a very noble thing. And a great deal of emphasis on education for all people and especially for women. So there was an element of women's empowerment in this. So I grew up in this tradition and many of my Hindu friends in America are far more vested in the tradition than I am. I had never followed those rituals. I had not ever been to a Sat Narayan Kikatha for instance, until I came to America. I went to attend one with, you know, which was being held by our friends in Ithaca. And I was quite astonished by it because it tells a really bad story as sort of a punitive God, which I don't believe in at all. So I don't think we gave you a very instruction in Hinduism kind of thing. But there are certain values in Hinduism which I'm sure you must have noticed about my behavior. Like, for instance, our respect for learning and the printed word.

[13:25] INDRA RAJ: Yeah.

[13:25] JYOTSNA RAJ: Yes.

[13:26] INDRA RAJ: And that was another thing, I think, related to spiritual life that isn't always brought into it. And like the other day when you came to do the volley with my family, one of the nicest parts, I think, is the music was singing the song.

[13:42] JYOTSNA RAJ: Yes.

[13:42] INDRA RAJ: Doing things like that, which is a huge part of religious traditions all over the world. But I think one of the things I find spirituality and if anything, is music and the arts. And I think, you know, that's related to your love of literature and visual art as well.

[14:00] JYOTSNA RAJ: And my paintings are often on religious themes.

[14:04] INDRA RAJ: Yeah.

[14:06] JYOTSNA RAJ: You know, because they represent the art traditions of India, which often also paint deities and aspects of their lives. Just like Christianity used to have these continual paintings of Madonna with Child.

[14:24] INDRA RAJ: Yeah. I mean, I find sometimes when I get really immersed in music, either playing it or listening to it or something, it can feel like a quote, unquote, religious experience. And I think that that is where I find sort of connection with something beyond myself or something like that. And I think I got a lot of that from you and Pa because you both love the arts and fostered that within us, which I think is uncommon for a lot of Indian American families.

[15:03] JYOTSNA RAJ: Yes, that is true. Because they tend to value the more practical disciplines in life rather than creativity or the arts. That seems a little difficult for them, although I don't know why, because I think Hindu culture, and if you look back at the history of Hindu culture, it is full of creativity and beauty. And actually, I have not introduced you to this, and that is partly because you don't understand the language. But there is beautiful devotional music in Hindi, and it is so beautiful that every time I hear it, it makes me cry, actually cry. So that has a very emotional impact on people. And funnily enough, the people who had written this devotional music are very stern critics of Hinduism and of religion actually, in general. So it is extraordinary that on the one hand, they have this deep devotion which is so beautifully expressed, and at the same time, in the very same poem, they may express a deep criticism of bad practices within the religion and indeed of religion altogether. So, you know, this is, I think, what I value about Hinduism and why I feel I would still identify as a Hindu because it allows me to be an atheist within the Christian tradition or the Islamic tradition. If you said, I'm an atheist, you are per se, not a Christian or a Muslim. You can be an atheist, Hindu. So that is what I value about it. It is a very liberal tradition, open to ideas of other faiths and thought traditions. And also the best thing is it's very psychologically rooted. It looks at people, and he says, if you are the worshipy kind of person, then find yourself a personal God. If you are activist, if you want to do good things in life, then follow karma, yoga, the path of duty and action. And if you are a spiritual person or an intellectual person, then think about it. Think about who you are, what your essence is, and, you know, it is a part of thinking about life, about the universe, really.

[17:37] INDRA RAJ: Yeah.

[17:38] JYOTSNA RAJ: So it's very psychological. It allows you to follow, to do what is in your nature to do.

[17:46] INDRA RAJ: Yeah. And I think, you know, those can be the best parts of religion. It's one of those things where religion is, in my opinion, and as I get older and look at all the world's conflicts and everything, they're all rooted in religion, including partition in India and Pakistan, including the Israel and Gaza conflict that's happening right now. Almost everything. All of the social unrest in America can be rooted back to Christianity and Christian values. God is written on our money. It's very present. And there's this line between spiritual life and religion and the organized business aspect of it and the way people hold power and how they can use this moral guise of religion as a way to act in pretty immoral ways, in my opinion. And so, you know, I'm curious to hear from you. I know some of this because we've talked about this, but, you know, looking at India right now, which is looking, with its current leader, Modi, to become more of a Hindu nationalist place, you know, what does that mean for you? How do you think that sort of plays out on, like, the wider world stage?

[19:12] JYOTSNA RAJ: Actually, it is a frightening thought for me. And it's also very depressing because to me, it goes against the very tenet of Hinduism, which is disorganization. We don't have a pope. We don't have one holy text. We don't have 10 commandments. We are very open. We are very eclectic. We are very, you know, just.

[19:39] INDRA RAJ: Chaotic.

[19:40] JYOTSNA RAJ: Well, chaotic, yes, in the best way, because you don't have rules that you have to follow. This is how it used to be. But the present dispensation in India Wants a religious state. They really admire Israel because they see Israel as conflating religion with nationality. And they want, they specifically say, we want a Hindu Rashtra. Rashtra means state. So I think they consider themselves the exemplars of Hinduism and the defenders of Hinduism. This thinking is known as Hindutva, that is to be Hindu. But I think they are actually completely in contradiction with the faith.

[20:29] INDRA RAJ: And I just, to me, I always think about, and also being, I think in this special position of being an other minority, both racially and you know, if there were religious whatever in America, all the people who aren't included in that, who live in India and who.

[20:52] JYOTSNA RAJ: Won'T be, they will be marginalized.

[20:55] INDRA RAJ: There's a large Christian population, there's a large Muslim population, there's large, you know, there's all religions in India.

[21:03] JYOTSNA RAJ: And this is why I say I used to enjoy being Hindu in India as I was growing up, because we were open to all religions and their rituals. Just as I like enjoy Hindu rituals. Actually I went to a Christian school. As you know, I studied in a Christian school for 11 years.

[21:21] INDRA RAJ: I'm the most Christian person.

[21:22] JYOTSNA RAJ: I'm the most Christian person in my, in my school day we had one class that was called Scripture and we just read the Bible and memorized parts of the Bible. And I was very influenced by the character of Christ, who I actually consider quite an exemplar. You know, he was socially progressive, he was for women's rights, he was for being non judgmental, for forgiving people endlessly. You know, this was his essence. Yeah, I don't think Christians nowadays follow Christianity. Yeah, because what Christ was, I believe in Christianity. One of the things is an injunction upon Christians is to be an imitation of Christ. I don't think they do that at all. And I have to admit that when I was in school there was a very strong push to proselytize, to have us convert to Christianity. And there was a period of time when I was maybe about 12 or 13 and I remember thinking, you know, I admire Christ. He's just, you know, such an amazing person. How is it that I'm not accepting him? And the narrative was, if you do not accept Christ, then you're somehow bad. Fortunately, I grew out of it. And I do have to say in my school, which was overtly proselytizing once a year, we used to have this week, which we loved because we had no classes then. We just taught Christianity and made to go see movies like, you know, the Ten Commandments. Yeah, we just really enjoyed Them. But in all these years, maybe about five people actually converted from whatever they were to being Christian. And they were not Hindu. They were actually Chinese citizens of India.

[23:16] INDRA RAJ: Oh, interesting.

[23:17] JYOTSNA RAJ: Yes. And partly it was a political thing because we had had a war with China, and Chinese citizens were under some constraints. By converting to Christianity, they could avoid those constraints.

[23:31] INDRA RAJ: That's a good example of how religion and statehood and politics, all these things gel together. But one of the questions here, and you sort of. I don't know, I'm interested to hear if there are any major life decisions that have been affected by your faith or your lack of it or whatever.

[23:57] JYOTSNA RAJ: Well, I don't really have faith. I mean, religious faith is not part of me at all. And I'm not. Religion does not loom large in my consciousness and life. So I would say certain values within this religion. Many people call Hinduism a way of life. And those cultural values have significance for me. Like, for instance, it is very difficult for a Hindu woman to imagine divorce. You know, there is that commitment to the relationship, which is of another level.

[24:40] INDRA RAJ: Yeah.

[24:40] JYOTSNA RAJ: And even, like we were talking about the respect for education and the written word, you guys have all noticed, and you told me this, that if I drop a piece of paper on the floor, I will pick it up and I will apologize to it. I will hold it to my head or in some way apologize. I will never step on a newspaper or anything like that voluntarily. So I think you guys must have probably picked that up. And also a sort of respect for older people, you know, a kind of behavioral pattern that makes you not able to be rude to people who are older than you. So this is really, I would say, aspects of a way of living rather than religious belief, because quite honestly, I don't think I have religious belief. And if I were to think of how I see, say, many people come to religion with thoughts of what happens after death, what is our life, what are we. And in Hinduism, the spiritual component of Hinduism, the philosophical one, it says that really the spirit is indestructible, and once the physical body dies, then that consciousness merges with the universal consciousness. And that appeals to me. And the sort of the, you know, explanation given is that material objects also are never destroyed. They often change from one state to another. Like ice becomes water or could become vapor. And similarly, why do we assume that our spiritual component will be destroyed? Yeah, it will probably just go into another form, which will be of merging with the universal consciousness. And I can believe this. It sounds rational to me. But I have to tell you, and it has helped me because, you know, I have had great losses in life. My father died when I was a child. My mother died very young. My very beloved cousin died very young. And so that did help me, but on the personal level, because I knew them as human beings in the flesh.

[27:19] INDRA RAJ: Yeah.

[27:20] JYOTSNA RAJ: I always imagine after death, meeting them in that way, not as my spirit merging with theirs or a universal spirit. And I know that will not happen rationally. I know. But there you are.

[27:38] INDRA RAJ: That is kind of a version of faith. Maybe. There is a lot of connection to the afterlife, I feel like, in all religions, and finding some sort of comfort.

[27:53] JYOTSNA RAJ: But it's not faith, Indra, because I am not sure that this is what it is. I just think of it as one way of explaining it. So I'm not sure I live in this uncertainty.

[28:07] INDRA RAJ: Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. I think religion can really shape people and change them. And, yeah, there's. I don't know if I've made any major life decisions around my faith. I mean, I definitely. Someone recently asked me how I wanted to raise my children, and I have two young boys, and I. I hadn't even, like, considered it because I have no formal religious life that I just thought, I don't want that. But even beyond that, I'm worried about them getting proselytized by some large organized religion. And I know that I, at a certain point, will not have any power over that. But as you said in the beginning of the conversation, you're born into a belief system of some kind. And so I wonder how much of whatever I think and feel around religion will connect with my sons and how they connect with it going forward.

[29:20] JYOTSNA RAJ: But I think you said to me that was very important, that you said, you're a moral person.

[29:25] INDRA RAJ: Yeah.

[29:26] JYOTSNA RAJ: And you want.

[29:26] INDRA RAJ: I tried to be.

[29:27] JYOTSNA RAJ: Yes. And you want to be good. And I think these are the values you will probably pass on to your children. That is beyond faith. It just totally has nothing to do with it. So there is that. And, you know, I've talked to Patrick, your partner, about this, too, and he is born into the Catholic faith, and he really questions it completely. In fact, he cannot really subscribe to it anymore. So I can understand that organized religion may well have not much significance for you.

[30:08] INDRA RAJ: Well, I think sometimes I think about, you know, in this question, major life decision, or I think maybe, like, watershed moment for me is a close friend of mine from college in the past handful of years has become a devout Catholic kind of out of nowhere. And it's been one of those moments where I've been able to really reckon, I think, with what it means to be that devoted to something, what Catholicism is and what organized religion can do to one's way of moving through the world. And, you know, long story short, we're not even really friends anymore because she's gone so deep into the religion kind of this by the book, Catholicism, whereas, you know, over the years, Episcopalian and things like this have kind of bended the rules or whatever. She's kind of in this camp of I'm going to do everything kind of by the book, you know, and that it connects to so many social issues that are really important to me, like access to abortion, gay people having rights, you know, even we tried to have a conversation about, you know, using different gender pronouns than the binary. And the thing she said about that, just so intolerant, felt really scary to me and upsetting.

[31:53] JYOTSNA RAJ: And this is one thing that I find about the current climate around Hinduism in India, that they are becoming more and more rigid. And as I said, it is antithetical to the whole idea of Hinduism to be rigid because it's very. It used. It is, in its core, a very accepting religion. Like, for instance, if you are a worshipful kind of person, you could say, my deity is Jesus Christ, and you could be a Hindu, but you could not be a Christian and say, no, my deity is Christian and I accept him. So I think that the rigidity in religion is what is not pleasing to me or acceptable. And that is probably why I do not belong to any, you know, tradition and formal tradition. And I think you were right to notice that your father has a greater religious life than me, because really, religion is not a major thing in my life.

[33:09] INDRA RAJ: Yeah.

[33:10] JYOTSNA RAJ: Even in the sense of spiritual belief. But morality is.

[33:16] INDRA RAJ: But so then I wanted to ask about Pa because you've been married to him for eons, and. And to me, it seems like he's become a more religious in his personal life over the years. But how has that felt to you, being in your religious identity but also being married to someone who has that.

[33:39] JYOTSNA RAJ: But I think he's very, you know, he never grew up in any organized Hindu way. He knows far less about our Hindu stories than I do.

[33:48] INDRA RAJ: I know.

[33:48] JYOTSNA RAJ: Yeah. So he is not within a kind of set tradition. It is just what is within him that he is expressing more and more in, you know, perhaps a religious and a spiritual sense.

[34:02] INDRA RAJ: Well, he uses the word God. So Pa writes a lot of poetry.

[34:06] JYOTSNA RAJ: Yes.

[34:07] INDRA RAJ: Which he sends to all of us by email.

[34:09] JYOTSNA RAJ: Which uses the word God. Yeah.

[34:11] INDRA RAJ: He uses the word God with a capital G a lot in it, which every time I see it, I must admit, I kind of roll my eyes, like, what is this about? But it's clearly important to him. It's clearly important to him.

[34:24] JYOTSNA RAJ: It is clearly important to him. Yes. But to me it is not. However, he doesn't talk about it. It's very private for him, so it's okay. I mean, I think what. I think I actually don't think about religion at all. So I am quite accepting of the way his. But morality, to me. I'm glad you brought this, Upindra. It is very important to me. And one of the people I see as an exemplar is my mother, who was perhaps one of the most good people in the world, but she had no religious belief either. So it is not God or fear of offending him that made her good. What made her good was intrinsic human nature. So that is. I do believe in that, that human beings have a leaning to morality to be good. That is our nature.

[35:23] INDRA RAJ: Yeah, I think so, too. And I think that that's something that troubles me about some organized religion, too, is I have to do these things to be a good person.

[35:33] JYOTSNA RAJ: To be a good person.

[35:35] INDRA RAJ: When, in fact, oftentimes it gets so twisted around to the point where you have priests abusing young children and people saying it's okay somehow, you know, that's like the darkest, I think, part of all of it, but there is a spectrum within all of it. And so when I look at it, you know, when I hear the word religion, when I hear words like God and see, you know, even. Even, like all the. What am I trying to say? Like a. Like an altar or something like that. It's all just very. It makes me cringe, almost, honestly.

[36:18] JYOTSNA RAJ: Well, I can't say I feel like that I actually admire. Not. I shouldn't say admire, but I like the beauty of religious objects and of churches.

[36:28] INDRA RAJ: I like churches. I think they're beautiful.

[36:30] JYOTSNA RAJ: And, you know, religious objects, too.

[36:32] INDRA RAJ: Yeah.

[36:33] JYOTSNA RAJ: So I don't think I'm put off by that. But, yes, the abuses that are committed in the name of religion.

[36:42] INDRA RAJ: Yeah.

[36:43] JYOTSNA RAJ: Yes. I find that very frightening. And taking people to a dark side of human nature.

[36:50] INDRA RAJ: Yeah.

[36:50] JYOTSNA RAJ: And as I say, I'm very concerned about India because it seems to be heading in this direction. I hope people. And here again, I'm so puzzled because actually, on the ground, when you meet people one on one, Indian people are very accepting. So how is this. How is this thought process taking over in that country?

[37:17] INDRA RAJ: Well, there's this tribalism that's happening all over the world. I mean, it's happening here in America with Trumpism, happening in the UK with Brexit, it's happening in the Middle East. I mean, it's all these things that.

[37:31] JYOTSNA RAJ: So it's more a question of identity than.

[37:35] INDRA RAJ: Yeah, well, and that's the thing is it's not so black and white. Identity, religious life, morality, you know, the way we raise our children, all these things, they all, they all inform one another.

[37:48] JYOTSNA RAJ: They do.

[37:49] INDRA RAJ: And so, you know, I sometimes I feel like maybe I'm too rigid in terms of how much I feel I need to reject religion sometimes. But I think that's where I am right now. Also realizing that like that may be.

[38:05] JYOTSNA RAJ: What you are seeing that makes you feel this way.

[38:10] INDRA RAJ: Yeah.

[38:11] JYOTSNA RAJ: And perhaps you may not continue to always feel so rejecting of this process.

[38:19] INDRA RAJ: Yeah. Who knows? We'll see.

[38:21] JYOTSNA RAJ: Yeah, yeah, it's, you know, as I said, I'm actually, when I think about it, I'm really glad that I am not a religiously inclined person because it allows my mind to be much freer. It allows me to be much more tolerant towards other people. Their beliefs cannot put me off them and my beliefs cannot make me push them away.

[38:50] INDRA RAJ: Yeah.

[38:50] JYOTSNA RAJ: So I'm actually happy that religion does not loom large in my consciousness.

[38:58] INDRA RAJ: Yeah. And there again, I think it's organized religion. Right. Because religion can be anything. It can be. It's your spiritual life, it's your moral life, it's your cultural life, it's your traditions and things like that. It's all part of it. But I think there is this distinction with like these organized religions and ways of doing things that sometimes that type of thing doesn't inform your life.

[39:31] JYOTSNA RAJ: No, it sounds like it does not.

[39:34] INDRA RAJ: Yeah. And I would say the same.

[39:36] JYOTSNA RAJ: Yeah. So, abhi.

[39:43] INDRA RAJ: If you'd like to wrap it up with perhaps saying what you're grateful for about each other, that's a way that people tend to like to end these kinds of things. I don't know if that's of interest to you guys.

[39:55] JYOTSNA RAJ: That's a very good thing. Yeah, go ahead. Why don't you go first?

[40:00] INDRA RAJ: Well, in the context of this conversation, I am grateful that as I said before, you have never pushed anything on me in terms of like formal religious anything because I think it's allowed me to really thing for myself, which is important to me and I think important for my sort of self efficacy in life. But yeah, I'm grateful that you're my mom. I think that you have a really positive outlook on life and way of being. You've been very caring and loving to me towards my whole life. You're supportive. And I think that you've enriched my life and really informed a lot of the things that are important to me, including, I think, a love of art and literature and intellectual pursuits, which has really enriched my life. So I'm grateful for you, Ma.

[41:08] JYOTSNA RAJ: Thank you. And I'm grateful that you are my daughter. And as you know, I always wanted a daughter. And why did I? Because I myself had an exceptionally close relationship with my own mother. And a great deal of the things you say, that I didn't push belief on you, that I inspired you by my love of the arts and creativity and also just encouraging you and being optimistic and loving, that is straight from my mother. And I often call on her memory. She died before you were born.

[41:52] INDRA RAJ: To.

[41:52] JYOTSNA RAJ: Make me a good mother. So she has been my exemplar. And if I have been in any way a good mother to you, I think you can thank your grandmother for that. Because, you know, sometimes I start and I'm saying that I'm not a religious person, but sometimes when I start the day and I know it's going to be difficult, I sort of almost say a little prayer to my mother to give me strength to do the best I can. And that has kept me grounded. So to hear you say that I have been a good mother, I'm very happy to hear that. And as I say, I truly feel that it is my mother's influence on me that has made it possible for me to be like this. So here we are. We'll just pause for 10 seconds.