Kaitlyn Joshua and Landon Joshua

[00:04] CAITLYN JOSHUA: My name is Caitlyn Joshua. I am 32 years old. Today's date is June 23, 2024. We are in Baton Rouge, Louisiana, and the name of my interview partner is Landon Joshua. He is also my husband.

[00:20] LANDON JOSHUA: My name is Landon Joshua. I am 29 years old. Today's date is June 23. We're located in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. My interview partner is Caitlyn Joshua, who is my wife. Caitlyn what do you remember about meeting me for the first time?

[00:41] CAITLYN JOSHUA: I can't help but laugh. Okay. I remember meeting you at the Renaissance hotel. That had to be eleven years ago, because we were both. Or ten years ago because we were worth a. Both working there in college. And I remember you telling me as the bellman, and I think I was working at the front desk. You stated that you went to Southern University and I was a junior, and you were. I was a sophomore and you were a freshman, and I'd never seen you on campus. But I remember meeting you at work, and then I swear, from that day forward, I always saw you on campus, but I just remember thinking that you're really handsome and that you're really cool Bellman. And we should hang out. And I think we ended up hanging out a bunch after that.

[01:28] LANDON JOSHUA: Hmm. Okay. And what do you remember about becoming a parent for the first time?

[01:36] CAITLYN JOSHUA: I remember being a parent for the first time. I remember being extremely nervous, and I remember us not really discussing wanting to be parents before we found out about Lauren. And, no, we hadn't discussed. No, we had never discussed that. I remember that that was. I don't think that was even on our radar. We were just traveling a lot, partying as much as possible, and then, bam. Lauren. And so I just remember thinking, becoming a parent for the first time, that I wanted to be a really good parent. I wanted to be intentional. She quite literally became our world pretty quickly. And I just remember kind of having to give myself a reality check of, like, okay, we've got this new person that we're responsible for, and I've got to shift my priorities. Yeah.

[02:19] LANDON JOSHUA: After we had Lauren, you experienced a miscarriage. Can you tell me about that experience?

[02:26] CAITLYN JOSHUA: I remember that first experience because I was very well supported. I remember that we. While we weren't, I don't think we were planning for kids at that time. You can cough. It's okay. I don't think we were prepared for that. For baby number two or trying to have baby number two at that time. But I do remember with that first miscarriage, feeling really supported. And I remember telling you, and we kind of just. We didn't really, like, go through. Go through a very long grieving process. I think I was very educated, knowing that many women have miscarriages. And I remember going to my provider and telling her about it and getting, you know, having the d and C procedure way back when and just, like, basically just feeling so extremely supported and having so many people in our network that also resonated with that miscarriage because they had experienced miscarriages. And I just remember just, like, honestly, like, just kind of taking away from that first miscarriage, just feeling fine. Like, I wasn't distraught. I just. We were still really young. I knew we could have more kids. And I kind of just felt so extremely empowered by the people around me that I wasn't sad, for lack of a better term.

[03:42] LANDON JOSHUA: How did you feel about the care that you received in that time?

[03:48] CAITLYN JOSHUA: The care that I received in that time was very prompt. I was able to call my provider, candidly, not go through a receptionist. I just had her cell phone number at the time, and I remember just calling her and her bringing me into the office immediately and giving me all my options and kind of telling me what happens when women miscarry and just being able to be transparent with her. And I also felt like we had such trust and rapport at that time with our provider that she was able to provide that for me, too. And so I just. Yeah, I have really positive takeaways from that first. That first miscarriage and getting so much care and being. And I think your face is probably looking perplexed, because they're speaking about the first miscarriage, not the miscarriage before. Liam.

[04:40] LANDON JOSHUA: Oh, okay.

[04:41] CAITLYN JOSHUA: Yeah. Okay.

[04:43] LANDON JOSHUA: Well, speaking of that, in August of 2022, we were preparing to become parents again. What was going on in Louisiana around that time?

[04:52] CAITLYN JOSHUA: Around that time, I. I mean, you could get away from the news. Everyone was kind of losing it around the overturn of Roe or the Dobbs decision coming down, which basically halted all abortion services in our state. And when I say that, I say that very lightly, because I don't feel like we ever had fully functional access to abortion care in the state anyways. But the little bit that we did have left was immediately halted, and our trigger ban went into place. And I remember speaking with my girlfriends in early August of 2022 and just thinking how much different living in Louisiana would be as a woman and how we had all had the same sentiments or shared the same sentiments around being really nervous to be pregnant during this time. And I also remember knowing that I was pregnant and not telling my girlfriends because I was so embarrassed that Ro had just been overturned. I knew it was a risk. The Dobbs decision came down, and we were expecting, and we knew it, but no one in our family knew it. And it was because of the political climate at that time and everyone just knowing that if you were expecting in this moment, you were crazy almost. If you were intentionally trying to get pregnant under that Louisiana law or under that trigger ban that was then enacted as a result of the Dobbs decision. And so just remembering in August of that year, like, being freshly pregnant, but also understanding that it was probably not the most strategic or intelligent time to be trying to intentionally get pregnant. And so all the feelings there, but that was the main feeling that I was feeling in that moment.

[06:33] LANDON JOSHUA: Walk me through the experience a little bit. What barriers did you face getting the care you needed?

[06:40] CAITLYN JOSHUA: So in September of 2022, remember, we had just had Lauren's birthday party on September 11 because it was your grandpa's birthday. And I remember running around. I mean, at this point, I'm ten weeks pregnant and running around just crazy, trying to get things ready for Lauren's birthday party. And she was turning four that year. And we had the party at my mom's house, I think, okay. And just kind of just stressed myself out behind that party. And I remember the next day, September 12, 2022, waking up that morning just feeling really off, and you were getting ready for work. And I remember just. I was, like, bleeding like crazy and just profusely and not really knowing what to do and just thinking in that moment, okay, the day before we spent all that time on the party, I ran around, mom ran around. I was reaching up high and picking up heavy things and just thinking that that was probably, you know, stressing my body out and stressing the baby out. And so I remember I was already on the clock for work at this point and had dropped Lauren to your mom, or your mom came home, and I said, look, I'm gonna have to go to woman's because I'm experiencing some bleeding and some cramping. And I was in pain. And she saw that, and so she was like, I'll help you out. I'll get Lauren from school. You go to woman's. And I remember going there in the parking lot, still on a Zoom call, which was so dumb. And, you know, kind of just walking in, filling out my information. And immediately, within, like, five or ten minutes, they took me to the back, and I saw the provider on staff. I can't believe. I can't remember if she was a nurse practitioner or an actual ob gyN. But I remember she said to me, look, you're probably just a little stressed out. Let's do a full workout. Let's get your vitals. Let's make sure everything's good. And by the time she finished checking cervix and getting all my vitals, she gave me a little bit of hope there, because I remember her telling me, look, your service is still closed. This could mean that you're still gonna be pregnant, you know, and that, you know, baby's not, you know, out of whack or nothing's, you know, not intact, and so you should have a little bit of hope there. And so I remember leaving out of her room and walking over to the ultrasound tech room on the other side of the assessment center. And the ultrasound tech, she didn't say anything at all. I remember her walking in. It was so quiet. It was kind of a gloomy room. Nothing in it but just me and the provider or the ultrasound tech. And the entire time that she's doing the ultrasound procedure, she didn't say anything at all. And I just remember thinking to myself, this is so awkward. And so by the time we finished that little visit, within, like, 30 minutes, she sent me into a room by myself. And then a nurse practitioner showed up, and she is trying to be a little jolly. And she says, look, if you are ten, almost eleven weeks tomorrow, then you are measuring around five or six weeks, which means your baby has completely stopped growing. And then at that point, I said, okay, well, if that's the case, then what does this mean? You know, are you able to tell me if this pregnancy is no longer viable? And, you know, we need to do something about it. And she was like, no, I'm not able to tell you anything. We just don't know what this means. And I remember saying something like, well, ACG levels should tell you something. And she's like, really don't have anything to compare it by because this is your day one. So I remember just sitting down and saying, we are praying for you. We are sending you home with prayers, but we are not going to be able to tell you whether or not you are miscarrying. And so we're going to move you along here, and if you start experiencing more cramping, more pain, more blood, you can come back tomorrow.

[10:26] LANDON JOSHUA: And how do you think the Louisiana's abortion bandaid affected that possibly getting.

[10:34] CAITLYN JOSHUA: Yeah, I get your drift. It absolutely affected, like, the way that she was not able to look me in the eye, the way she couldn't finish a sentence. And then, most importantly, just like the way in which she could have formulated a sentence to say, you are miscarrying. This is what we do about it. It instead became if, you know, if all these different potential scenarios and no real explanation, which led me to go to a different hospital the next day. Okay, mechanism is like rushing, you know? So I'm sure it's like, that's kicking in, but certainly. And sorry if I've been talking so fast. And so at that first hospital, I just remember thinking to myself, okay, it's just me and you, young lady, in this room. And I know that you're able. You have the expertise of the training to be able to tell me what this means. And just kind of just being frustrated, but kind of screaming inside of my own body for this person to just be honest and transparent, it's like we're right on the cusp of it, right? Like we're kind of having this dialogue going in circles, you know, shoulda coulda woulda, or if. If just kind of was kind of what she. What the provider kept going to. It's just, you know, I'm not able to share this, or I can't tell you this. And when she kept saying, can't tell me, it kind of felt like, well, who is silencing you? Or who's preventing you from telling me? And at this point, I'm also, like, just thinking, like, you know, I want to mentally prepare myself for what this means for my family, because eleven weeks is pretty far, right? It's pretty far in terms of gestation period. And you start thinking you're gonna go through all the stages and bring home a baby. And so I just wanted to know in that moment of frustration for both of us, I'm sure, what was what? And she just could not give me that. And so she stated, you, you know, at the very least, I could return the next day if I wanted to kind of follow up, if my symptoms got worse, which they did. And so I ended up deciding to go to a completely different hospital the next day to avoid that same scenario from the day before.

[13:05] LANDON JOSHUA: So through all this, what were you the most scared of?

[13:09] CAITLYN JOSHUA: Yeah. So I was most scared of by day two, I was most scared that I was literally gonna die. Felt that much pain in my life. I always say, like, it was worse than when I had Lauren. Like, Lauren, I felt like I had bearable pain when I was going through child labor. This miscarriage was knocking me out, and your mom saw that. Like, I was so I was almost, like, embarrassed because I was in so much pain and not able to get it together. And, I mean, I'm just passing so many clots, and it was frightening. And at this point, on day two, with the pain worsening, I just kept thinking, I've got this four year old in the other room, and I want to be here for her, and I need to go find some help so that I can make sure that I'm here for Lauren. And so I decided on day two, right around the evening. I don't even know why I waited so long, but I think I just kept saying to myself, if you go back to woman's, they're going to tell you the same thing. Go somewhere else. And I think I called you a million times by this time, because you were still at work. And so I decided to take my chance with another hospital and went to Baton Rouge general ascension location. And, you know, the security guard greeted me. He saw that I was in pain, put me in a wheelchair, immediately brought me to the back within, like, five minutes of filling out the little iPad. And at that facility, the first lady to come in the room was so unhelpful. And I kind of. She kind of foreshadowed the entire visit, our conversation. The nurse and I kind of stalled out for you, though, because I know you were rushing from work to get there and meet me. And then mom had pulled up, and by this time, I think all of y'all had made it to the back by the time I finished speaking with the nurse. But she just. She told me something along the lines. I told her I was like, look, I am bleeding like crazy. And, you know, I do not want to be, you know, bound to a bed, sitting in this, like, can you, you know, help me out? And she gave me a gown, and she said, you know, a lot of women, they come in here and they exaggerate, and they think they're bleeding so much, and they're not. And I just remember thinking that moment, like, really? You're going to tell me that, like, while I'm going through this, that women exaggerate? And we think it's, you know, miscarriage and it's not, and we think it's.

[15:22] LANDON JOSHUA: All good?

[15:51] CAITLYN JOSHUA: That's so wild.

[15:52] LANDON JOSHUA: It must be a different setting that's out.

[15:58] CAITLYN JOSHUA: We'll work with it. Okay. I think I remember where. Okay. And so after I finished having the exchange with the nurse that was on staff, who kind of just told me again, you know, women come in here, and they think it's into the world, and it's really not. And so I was like, oh, God, this is unhelpful, and I hope it isn't. Just telling me in this moment that the rest of this trip is gonna be pointless or this visit. And so they sent in an ultrasound tech, and he was so kind. I remember till this day, he immediately walks in, and he says, and I think at this time, he had y'all step out while I was in there by myself. And he said, me and my wife have been pregnant 14 times, and we have seven kids. And he was like, so what does that tell you? And I was like, oh, you guys had quite a few miscarriages. And he said, yeah, y'all, we did. We did have a few miscarriages, so y'all don't need to lose hope. If this is a, in fact, a miscarriage, at the very least, you can try for more. And he was trying to be so sweet and keep my mind off of things. And so we had our visit together. The ultrasound tech kind of went through all the different workup that they do and getting a lot of images. And I remember he walks out, and then a few minutes later, you all walk in. And then finally, the actual emergency physician doctor walks in, and immediately when she comes into the room, she says, and I remember her stance was just like, are you sure you were ever pregnant? And I remember thinking, oh, God, like, here we go again with the gaslight, you know, language. And she said to me, this just looks like a baby. And I remember at this point, my mom's getting annoyed. And I think you had kind of just, like, walked off, like, oh, by the sister. Yeah. She was like, this just looks like a cyst. And my mom was like, no. Like, she was absolutely pregnant. And, you know, we got that confirmed beforehand. And, you know, at this point, like, can you just tell us what we need to be doing? Like, she kind of went into mom mode, and I remember we had called Angelle, and she said, you know, they're not going to give you anything in black and white. They're probably not going to be helpful. And I remember she was still in med school at Tulane at this point, and she said, Caitlyn like, the days of them being transparent with you were over. Like, you need to just get what you can. Ask her if she'll at least do a d and c procedure or something like that. And I remember just flat out asking her, look, can we at least get. Or can I at least get some care, like, either medication or a DNC? And she said, no, we're not going to do that. I remember her kind of insisting that that was not what they do anymore. Or at this time, I think is what she said verbatim. And she said, we're gonna give you some discharge papers, and then you can handle it like that. And if you. And I remember my mom saying, okay, give us a discharge papers. And the physician said, well, we don't give it to you in your hand. You can call back on Friday.

[18:50] LANDON JOSHUA: Yeah.

[18:51] CAITLYN JOSHUA: And I think at this point, we're just like, man, like, we just want the course of action here. Like, what are we supposed to be doing? And getting those discharge papers that just simply said, take Tylenol, which had been taken for the last couple days. And so leaving there, like, super frustrated, annoyed, and going back home and still, like, getting the bill, right? Still getting the bill for all these visits that we're racking up and just thinking, like, we're paying thousand dollars for someone to tell us to go home and do the same thing, right, take Tylenol. And just allowing, you know, kind of. Just like, kind of going through the motions and, like, googling like crazy over the next couple days until finally I said, look, I'm going to try my luck with a midwife. And I called you, said, I'm going to go to Auctioner. They have a midwife. She's well versed in this. And I did some research on her, and he said, okay, go do that. And then going there, I think, that Friday of the same week and asking her, hey, just confirm for me that this is a miscarriage. And her just immediately being compassionate and saying, at the very least, I'm going to tell you this is a miscarriage. I don't understand why every single provider under the sun has avoided that with you, but I'm going to tell you, this is a miscarriage. I cannot do anything legally. I'm bound to what's within my profession of midwifery. And I will be able to monitor you. I can maybe look at ACG levels as the weeks go on, but I won't be able to give you medication or a procedure. You're going to have to pass this naturally. I just remember thinking, at least I got the confirmation, but still feeling very empty that nobody was willing in our parish or our district or area to take up the conversation of a procedure that would help me pass that pregnancy with dignity, but instead, like, feeling like I live in this complete hell hole of women having to just fight this at home by themselves, you know, without any real care.

[20:46] LANDON JOSHUA: You mentioned phone calls that you were.

[20:48] CAITLYN JOSHUA: Making, you know, she was making to you at that time. Just curious, like, do you have any.

[20:54] LANDON JOSHUA: Memories of what those phone calls were like?

[20:57] CAITLYN JOSHUA: And I can also.

[21:00] LANDON JOSHUA: No, no. Oh, I don't know. Sometimes my compassion isn't the highest, so sometimes. The first couple times, I thought it was just pregnancy things that she was dealing with, so. Oh, some somehow. But after the first couple times, and then when you started to see you was a good bit of blood loss, I was like, okay, something's probably going. Then by the, like, fifth or 6th, that's when I was trying to come to a close on work, to go ahead and head out and come to the hospital. So that's. So sometimes that's the main things I remember, I think, yeah, probably that fifth or 6th time, I was like, all right, I need to try and see what's going on. When you realize you were miscarrying, you asked about treatment. What did doctors tell you? How did it feel to be told, go back home and wait?

[22:13] CAITLYN JOSHUA: I know I kind of touched on that already, but feeling, getting told go home and wait just felt so dismissive, and it definitely took the humanity out of the entire situation. And oddly enough, I kind of felt badlandhouse for the doctors because I felt like they were kind of putting on this facade or show to save themselves and, like, save, save their line of work and not be held accountable should they say something wrong, quote, unquote, almost like, empathize with them, which was really weird. But just thinking in that moment, like, okay, this is how you have to operate now under this new law. This is how you have to handle patience in their most. In their most stressful of situations. Just like, dismissing someone and just like, not leading from a place of compassion just really blew my mind.

[23:10] LANDON JOSHUA: How would your life be different if you had full access to reproductive healthcare?

[23:16] CAITLYN JOSHUA: If I had full access to reproductive healthcare, I know my life would be different. I know that experience would have been different because I've had different experiences before that led from a place of compassion, led from physicians being full on, hands on, interested in my care. And so to see, like, that stark contrast was just devastating. To see play out in real time and be the patient receiving that lack of care or not receiving that care, how my life would be different. I think one thing that really kind of sent me down a rabbit hole was being so extremely kind of, like, over protective or over just like, way to research here, like, hands on with my care, with Liam. So when I got pregnant with Liam, I was kind of like, so hyper about making sure that I didn't miscarry this baby and I didn't go see a physician that wasn't going to help me or make sure that they had. Make sure that person had all the tools at their disposal to be able to save my life, should they need it. And I feel like that's care that people should never be chasing. Like, I remember when we had the conversation, I know you thought I was crazy because I said, look, I'm not going to Baton Rouge for care for this new pregnancy. I'm not going to go to ascension. I'm going to go to New Orleans. And I remember you saying, like, oh, that's kind of out of the way, huh? Like, is your job gonna agree to letting you travel an hour there, be there for an hour, an hour back, and just thinking, like, how wild that was in 2023, someone would have to go through such great lengths because they were so afraid of not receiving care and not being taken care of to the full extent or capacity of the physician, and just really, like, doing my homework to be able to find and pinpoint and identify a physician that would totally embrace abortion care, should I need it to save my life. And so I know that that was a not just a very privileged thing to be able to do, to travel that far and invest all that money in a physician so far away, but also, it's something that was definitely a burden in a lot of ways. Like, I shouldn't have had to go through all that just to have a healthy, successful pregnancy. I should have been able to get that care anywhere in the state of Louisiana. And I know that's not unique to Louisiana, but definitely something that. That strikes me as important.

[25:41] LANDON JOSHUA: Who or what helped you helped you through that time?

[25:45] CAITLYN JOSHUA: Who or what helped me through that time? I know you're looking at me like, me, you definitely helped me with yours, you know, with your witty, you know, jerk like behavior. I'm kidding. You definitely helped me. You were super supportive, and I'm forever grateful for that. And I think that you were very optimistic about the future and not just, like, rushing me through, you know, this grieving process of that baby and, like, that potential, but also just, like, letting me take my time and also, like, really helping out with lauren that, like, you, your mom, I'm forever grateful to your mom. Don't tell her that. She helped me, you know, watching lauren and my mom, too. That's true. And she definitely picked up a lot of slack when I was, like, grieving those following months and just not wanting to do anything. And I even, like, have to look to, like, my boss and, like, my network of black women that really embraced me in that time, including my sister, who was just like, you know, you, whenever you get through this, like, I certainly want to see you, however you. However you show up, speak to, okay, speak to the importance of this moment. And now that you have this new lived experience, you better talk about it, and you better, you know, help the next black woman who now has to deal with the new state of louisiana, the new position that we were in as a result of the overturn. And so, so many women I could thank, but I definitely had, like, a network, a village of folks that helped me stay sane during that time. And you included, since then, how have.

[27:19] LANDON JOSHUA: Other people reached out to help?

[27:21] CAITLYN JOSHUA: Yeah, I am actually, like, shocked by the many people that I've, you know, have, whether they've emailed me or texted or sent me DM's via Instagram or, you know, some pastors that I work with in, like, my day job who have, like, pulled me aside and said, look, like, I read your story. I heard about this. This is major. If it's happening to you, it's happening to other women across the state, and we've got to do something about it. And I think it's so beautiful to watch so many people that probably would have never touched this issue now going out of their way to sound the alarm on something that has been very much an issue in the black community for a long time when talking about maternal health, when talking about deaths as a result of not getting certain care, including abortion care in our state, and just seeing so many people take up that stock and that are like, no, I need to speak to this because, you know, I see Caitlin's story, I see Nancy's or I see this person's or I know someone which has been really sad to see so many women and so many moms who have lost their babies. And when I say babies, they're 30 something years old women as a result of not being able to get care in this state and the care that they deserve. And so it's been really motivating and mobilizing to see so many people interested in this topic that never would have touched it before.

[28:40] LANDON JOSHUA: What do you wish more people knew about your experience?

[28:44] CAITLYN JOSHUA: I wish more people understood that abortion does not mean, and it should, and it could. Right. But adoration just doesn't mean that you want to electively, you know, not have a baby. Right. I think it is such an intersectional and needed piece of healthcare that folks just gotta start educating themselves, like I wish. And maybe that's part of our work, right? Part of our role, you know, as Kayla and Landon. So people understand, like, this, too, could be you. And we have got to do the work to help people understand from the very beginning what an abortion is and how important abortion care is to the livelihood and to just helping our communities thrive. Like, without abortion care, we're going to see more people perish as a result of just, not just negligence, but the terrible interpretations of these egregious laws, the vagueness of the trigger ban. And I need for everyone to understand, like, you may not see yourself in it, but politics certainly will see you in it, and they do see you in it, and they're making decisions for you whether you like it or not. And so it's important for folks to understand that this affects everyone, not just certain women, not just women who want kids, don't want kids, you know, want to do IVF, don't want to do IVF, you know, so on and so forth and all that to say it affects families and it affects communities when you don't have access to abortions.

[30:10] LANDON JOSHUA: And why did you choose to share your story?

[30:13] CAITLYN JOSHUA: You know, it's so wild. I know that, you know, we get asked this all the time, like, why did y'all share with NPR? Or why did y'all share with this person or that media outlet? And to be quite honest, and the question asked, why do you cheat? Why did you choose? I almost don't want to say we chose. I feel like my sister was adamant about sending me that Louisiana Department of Health hearing meeting. I think it took place in October of 2022. And I remember calling you and telling you, angel wants me to go to this meeting downtown Baton Rouge, where I've got to share my story, because they're doing an all call on what the abortion is doing in our state, the abortion ban's doing. And a lot of people are going to go and we've got to speak to what this ban is doing and how it is harming community. And I remember thinking, I don't want to do that, and I'm not going to do that. I was just pushed and pushed and pushed. And I went to that meeting, and I got up right behind a doctor that was so hell bent on casting all people that are proponents of the, of abortion access as, you know, killers of babies and murderers. And I remember he was going off at the, at the hinges and like, he had just lost it. And I got up right up. They caught my name right behind him. And I remember thinking, oh, God, I have to get behind this person that is, you know, so. So has so vividly illustrated that abortion care is the devil, right? And so I remember getting up there and just sharing my story and talking about how I love Louisiana and I love our state, and everything that's in the state is what I want to protect and I want to care for. But it was very hard for me in that moment to love my state because they had recently enacted a ban. And there was this alleged list of potential anomalies which, like, how can you account for all the anomalies that could happen while pregnant or that can happen during the gestation period? And I remember getting up there and just saying, like, my story for the last couple weeks has been one of grief and one of pain and one of sorrow and being frustrated that anybody would get up there and say that abortion care is not necessary. And as soon as I finished telling my story, like, I remember the room was, like, dead silent, and several reporters walked up to me, and one of them was Rosemary Westfood, who's an affiliate of NPR. And I remember her telling me, like, Caitlyn like, I'm Rosemary. You've got to share your story with me, not just at this meeting. And I was like, no, Rosemary, I'm not doing that. I remember, I don't think I dodged her for months, but I think I was very quiet and kind of silent and speaking with you a lot about, should we do this? Should we not, like, this could open up wild doors that we don't necessarily want to want to be opened. And ultimately, I think we decided by November, almost, almost into Christmas time, Christmas season, to go ahead and sit down with Rosemary and share that story. And that's how that came about. And so, like, even though I guess, like, ultimately I chose to, you know, give that story or share that story with Rosemary that prompted this whole, you know, new era of us, just, like, advocating for reproductive justice. I also think, like, folks had to propel me forward to do that because in that moment, I was just mad. I was mad as hell and not wanting to do that. And so, but I'm grateful that everyone pushed us to do that.

[33:23] LANDON JOSHUA: I didn't even know the beginning part of it.

[33:25] CAITLYN JOSHUA: Oh, Angelle, like, the hearing, you remember that?

[33:27] LANDON JOSHUA: I didn't remember that part.

[33:28] CAITLYN JOSHUA: Yeah. And so what were your first impressions of me?

[33:36] LANDON JOSHUA: First impressions? You sounded really smart, so I knew you could help me do homework so that it did. It worked out.

[33:47] CAITLYN JOSHUA: And I remember doing your homework too. What kind of conversations did we have about having children earlier in our relationship?

[33:57] LANDON JOSHUA: There weren't many. And when we did, it was saying that we weren't going to have any for a while. I remember that that was the beginning and middle part until we paint. We got engaged and then married. So then Lauren came pretty soon after that. Yeah, so that. So, yeah.

[34:21] CAITLYN JOSHUA: Yeah. So that was short lived. What do you remember about becoming a parent for the first time?

[34:27] LANDON JOSHUA: For the first time, it was she. Lauren pretty much knocked our socks off the first couple weeks because it was a true adjustment of life, unlike any other, really, sleep schedule wise, having to be responsible for another person. So it was my first impression of. It was just, I've never had to do this or had to be responsible for somebody else that way.

[34:58] CAITLYN JOSHUA: Yeah, I remember we. We argued quite a few, like, quite a bit during those first couple weeks.

[35:04] LANDON JOSHUA: Definitely.

[35:05] CAITLYN JOSHUA: I definitely hated you for the first couple weeks. What do you remember about the time before Liam, when we were preparing to become parents to that baby? Can you share any memories from that time? Do you remember any?

[35:18] LANDON JOSHUA: I remember when we found out. I guess that was about a three week span before we got those doctors visits. So mentally, I had just started a new job. So adjusting to that and then seeing how we would work our schedules with the work schedules that we had at that time, that's a big thing. I remember trying to make those preparations and see how we would work everything from there.

[35:51] CAITLYN JOSHUA: Right. And then when speaking about the miscarriage and when, you know, ultimately, I guess, mid September. So kind of fast forwarding here. How did it feel to watch me go through that experience, that miscarriage? I don't think I've ever asked you that either. Like, how. How'd you feel when I was, like, you know, blowing up your phone? And also, like, I remember, like, crying a lot and, like, being, like, an emotional wreck. But I never asked you how you felt about all that.

[36:20] LANDON JOSHUA: Oh, extremely helpless, because there was literally nothing I could do. The times I called the doctor's office or the hospital, I got the same answers. So it was extremely helpless. So every route I tried to take didn't work. We had no answers. You were still kind of going through things physically that we had no answers for because we weren't getting any. So it was the most helpless I probably ever felt.

[36:57] CAITLYN JOSHUA: What do you wish more people knew about our experience?

[37:00] LANDON JOSHUA: That it could happen to you. I mean, like anyone says, you only whatever steps away from it happening to you if it happened to us, which we had a successful pregnancy the first time to where you wouldn't have thought that you would have went through that. So it definitely is not an age thing. Cause you weren't in a later age or anything like that. It's one of those things. It can happen to anyone else.

[37:38] CAITLYN JOSHUA: How does it feel raising a daughter during these times? And when I say during these times, like, obviously, like with the abortion man that doesn't provide for any exceptions, rape, incest, and then also, like, obviously, like, we. I guess we talk about this about quite a bit, like, raising our kids and our daughter in Louisiana right now.

[37:58] LANDON JOSHUA: It makes you want to leave Louisiana. It's one of those things when you start to think about it, you don't see where it will change. If it does change, it would have to result in different people in leadership in this state, and it makes you want to leave.

[38:19] CAITLYN JOSHUA: Yeah. What kind of future do you think we can have or do we want for our children if we stay in Louisiana?

[38:30] LANDON JOSHUA: Hmm.

[38:31] CAITLYN JOSHUA: I know. I didn't think about that either.

[38:35] LANDON JOSHUA: Yeah. Answer to me again.

[38:40] CAITLYN JOSHUA: What kind of future do you want for our children here in Louisiana?

[38:44] LANDON JOSHUA: A healthy one where when they go, spend a lot of money on a doctor's visit to have an answer, or, of course, a course of action for the future and not just a hope you feel better or you hope it's an answer for. What's the next steps that would be ideal.

[39:17] CAITLYN JOSHUA: Before I do that, I'm curious if.

[39:19] LANDON JOSHUA: There are any things that you wanted.

[39:20] CAITLYN JOSHUA: To ask each other or want to say to each other about any.

[39:24] LANDON JOSHUA: You know, like, those are questions that I, you know, jotted down the graph.

[39:28] CAITLYN JOSHUA: From the list, but, you know, there.

[39:29] LANDON JOSHUA: Might be things you want to ask each other that aren't on there.

[39:31] CAITLYN JOSHUA: So I want to give you the.

[39:31] LANDON JOSHUA: Opportunity first before I ask you something. Cause I know you could take up the time. How do you feel now about the situation? Do you think that situation made you grow in different ways?

[39:51] CAITLYN JOSHUA: Oh, yeah, certainly. I feel like I've always heard about, because it's so hard for me to separate, like, abortion care and just maternal health care in general. Like, I can't really separate the two. And so I've always heard of, you know, women, you know, whether it was like, I mean, I can name a distant cousin of yours who lost her life to, you know, I think she was, like, 30 weeks pregnant, and she just couldn't get any care for whatever ailment she had. And I remember baby passed. She passed. I mean, I've had relatives. I've read the news. And there's been so many different stories that I could speak to where black women have lost their lives as a result of not getting basic maternal healthcare in our state. So I knew the numbers were bad. I knew the statistics were horrible, but I didn't want to believe. I know that sounds crazy, but I didn't want to believe that our state had a real issue, like a systemic, racist issue, when it comes to maternal health care. And going through this experience helped me see, obviously, we know that the abortion ban definitely played a role in my experience in particular. But it also opened my eyes to my privilege in a way, because I've always been able to afford the best healthcare. My parents always made a way for us when it came to healthcare through their employers. And then me as an adult, like, you know, at the time, at 29, almost 30, I've always been able to get what I consider the best healthcare. And so this experience, like you said earlier, helps me understand that this can happen to anyone. And you're not exempt or, you know, so privileged that you can buy yourself a better healthcare system if it doesn't exist. And so it has definitely helped me be a better listener, too. Like, you know, I myself did not experience that firsthand or have that lived experience, so I didn't think it was that bad. But now I've heard so many. I can sit in a room with 300, 400 other black women, and they are going to recount a harrowing story around their birthing experience, how they almost lost their lives as a result of negligence or just a physician not believing them. And I think that's the common theme here, whether we're talking about abortion ban or we're talking about healthcare in general. Like, black women are never believed, and I think, or rarely, excuse me, let me not say never, rarely believed. And it's just so important that I uplift that and I amplify that, and I talk about that in my daily walk. You know, it may not be my day job to take on reproductive issues, but it's definitely my baby. And my compassion that I leave with around that issue is definitely propelling me to want to always work on that issue, no matter what. And so it's definitely changed the trajectory of my life and what I consider as a priority. I guess what I'm curious to know is just in terms of, obviously, we've done a couple interviews together, and we've had people kind of come randomly take pictures at our house and all this stuff. And I'm just curious, as a black male watching all this kind of play out and also finding yourself in the center of it by extension of me going through it. Do you have a new outlook on this issue, too, or was this stuff that you kind of already knew, or what's just your perspective on it now that you've gone through all this, too?

[43:27] LANDON JOSHUA: Probably a 180 look, because it's not something I researched or had any experience with. It just is something I completely didn't know of. So going through it, it definitely gave me a new outlook, and it made me open my eyes to a lot of things that I didn't pay attention to and really see how healthcare affects even day to day life. So it's a complete 180 in terms of that. I'm curious, just growing up like that.

[44:17] CAITLYN JOSHUA: Were you having about abortion, if any.

[44:19] LANDON JOSHUA: When you were growing up here? Like, was that something that you talked.

[44:22] CAITLYN JOSHUA: About, the word that you heard? Like, when did that.

[44:26] LANDON JOSHUA: The literal experience that I even witnessed, or people who in, like, high school were. Had become pregnant, that you kind of. It was kind of like a grapevine thing or a rumored thing that they might have gotten pregnant or. And that might have been the route that they take. They had taken. So that's the only little bit of anything I had with abortion. And it was looked at as I didn't think about the possibility of someone possibly being raped or some type of different scenario. The only thing I knew, if you didn't want to be pregnant anymore, that's the route you took.

[45:17] CAITLYN JOSHUA: Yeah, very similar. For me, I don't think it's a generalization or a stereotype when I say. I just. I've never met, like, a black family who had open conversation around the word abortion or, like, what that meant, especially, like, in adolescence. Like, we just. From my experience, we just don't. And I think maybe that'll change now, which would be really cool. I've seen, like, my younger cousins, like, have conversations with their moms around abortion and what that really means, like, the importance of understanding your body and autonomy and all those things. We just did not have those open, candid conversations back then. But my only experience was similar to yours, Landon was just, if I ever heard of anyone, um, or, you know, their relation to abortion, it was girls that, you know, their mom found out they were pregnant, and they took them to get an abortion in high school. And it. What's interesting, though, it's, like, people didn't troll them about it, though. Like, didn't troll them, didn't. We had enough, like, modicum of respect not to even bring it up. Like, we knew that that was a hard enough thing that they were probably going through to terminate a pregnancy, much less, especially if, like, you knew, like, a girl that actually wanted to keep her baby but her mama made her. So we were, like, kind enough, I think, as, like, you know, little punkhead kids. Like, totally, like, just having enough respect for each other to not even bring it up. Like, I remember when I was on a. On the cheer squad at Woodlawn High School, we had a couple girls that became pregnant, and, you know, their mom found out, and they were like, nope, I'm taking you. And then another young lady, she got pregnant a second time, and she was like, nope. I told my mom, I am keeping my twins. And that's what she did. And I just remember thinking at that age, I thought it was kind of empowering that she was like, nope, this is my body. This is my life, and I want to take on this responsibility. And, I mean, she had the cutest little kids, cutest little twins. And I just remember that seeing that firsthand in that moment, for me, like, it kind of like, her taking back her power was so cool to me. And at that time, too, like, I feel like Louisiana schools were teaching sex ed back then. They don't now, but they did back then. But they never brought up abortion. They only gave us lessons on contraception, like, the typical tutorial on how to use condoms, but never brought up abortion. And you were. I know for what I remember very well was the coaches that we had teaching those classes. They made it clear to us that abortion was bad, and you were terrible, if even so much thought about getting one as a young lady. So I do remember that, like, that was kind of. It was very taboo. Maybe this is also for either one of you.

[48:01] LANDON JOSHUA: But considering what's going on with Louisiana.

[48:05] CAITLYN JOSHUA: And how you mentioned thinking about the challenge of deciding whether or not to.

[48:10] LANDON JOSHUA: Stay here, I'm curious, like, what does.

[48:11] CAITLYN JOSHUA: Give you a hope for the future and for your children if you do decide to stay here? What?

[48:16] LANDON JOSHUA: Like, what's something that helps with the.

[48:18] CAITLYN JOSHUA: Hope side of things? I feel like I'm struggling in this moment to answer that. We just had a terrible legislative session that rolled back even more, more progress in the reproductive justice space. And I think we've really, as of lately, been talking about moving and where. Right. Like, I think the only thing that provides me hope first staying in Louisiana or hope, if we stay in Louisiana, is the thought that we can continue to afford our home. Like, it's still really affordable to live here. And I think that's why so many people stay. Cause it's just more convenient. But I'm struggling with hope right now. I'm not gonna lie. Like, it just whether it's the facets of our educational system that's being completely eroded by white supremacists, or if it. And that scares me. Cause I'm like, who's teaching my kid, right? And the fact that we can't even teach black history openly anymore, all the things like nothing, is really that great. I think the only thing that may provide me a little hope is I do feel like, no matter what, the majority of folks in our state have more common sense than the legislators that represent us. And that does give me hope. I think the. Like, what do they say? The emptiest wagon makes the most noise? I think our legislators are the empty wagons and the platform that they. That they have. They look like absolute fools when it comes to. To the ways in which they vote, even like most recently with the Ten Commandments crap. And even as christians, we struggle with the way in which they are trying to just usher in such punitive measures and force religion on people in very disgusting ways. And so the only thing that gives me hope is the fact that the small minority, or what we think to be the small minority, is really the majority, and we're all gonna rise up and take back our state. That's my hope.

[50:09] LANDON JOSHUA: I don't have much hope.

[50:10] CAITLYN JOSHUA: Thanks, Landon. Yeah, yeah.

[50:13] LANDON JOSHUA: Anything else you wanna say to each other before we. I just wanna say I appreciate you every day, so just keep up the good work, and we'll make it through. Be quiet.

[50:40] CAITLYN JOSHUA: Yeah. For 10 seconds. Maybe like 20 seconds. 20 seconds. And I might ask one more.

[51:07] LANDON JOSHUA: You've done that. And maybe. Maybe it was asked already.

[51:11] CAITLYN JOSHUA: You know, just kind of thinking about the fact that you have a daughter.

[51:15] LANDON JOSHUA: You have a son.

[51:15] CAITLYN JOSHUA: You know, you've got children that may or may not grow up here. You know, what are your hopes for the future in general? It doesn't have to be about.

[51:22] LANDON JOSHUA: It doesn't have to be about Louisiana. It could just be about, like, what.

[51:25] CAITLYN JOSHUA: Do you hope for the future?

[51:27] LANDON JOSHUA: Oh, my hope for my children's future is to live the healthiest, most fulfilling lives they can included in. That is when they do get a bobo or do have a health incident, that they can go somewhere that can give them real, true answers. And the fulfilling part is things that they put their mind to. They have the resources and opportunities to be able to carry those out. And if they can do that, I'll be, just be elated for them.

[52:17] CAITLYN JOSHUA: And if you, if this recording was going to be heard from them.

[52:26] LANDON JOSHUA: If they hear this in their adulthood, I would want them to look back on how they were raised and say, and have direct stories of, of things that we tried to teach them and things that they can look back and say. My dad taught me this. My mom taught me this. And this is a direct correlation to why I'm so successful. And that would be great.

[52:58] CAITLYN JOSHUA: Same. I think that's a really good way to put it. We have always tried to give them experiences, above all, and also helping them know right from wrong really early, including in the social justice space and polling them all over the country for social justice issues. And I just hope they're still doing that right now.