Karina Brown and Julia Brown

[00:04] KARINA BROWN: Hi, my name is Karina Brown. I'm 50 years old. Today is May 21, 2023. We're in Logan, Utah. Julia Brown is here with me, and she'll be interviewing me. And she is my daughter.

[00:20] JULIA BROWN: Yeah, I'm Julia. I'm 18 years old, and Karina is my mom. Yeah. Where were you born?

[00:35] KARINA BROWN: I was born in Sacramento, California.

[00:38] JULIA BROWN: Do you remember anything about Sacramento, or were you not there for a long time?

[00:44] KARINA BROWN: I remember a couple things living in California because we moved when I was four years old. Like, I remember my mom taking me to this park. And they had a lot of ducks, and it was really pretty weather and walking around the park and looking at the ducks. And I remember drinking orange juice out of a Flintstones bottle.

[01:09] JULIA BROWN: Yeah. So tell me about some of your earliest childhood memories.

[01:13] KARINA BROWN: Well, those are some of them, you know, in California, just kind of being outside drinking out of my Flintstones bottle. We moved to Missouri when I was four. And my dad was in law school. I don't remember him at school or anything like that, but he was in law school when I was born. And my parents had me and my sister Tammy and my brother Clark, all in law school. And then we moved to Missouri in the seventies when I was about four. So it would have been about 1976. And my grandparents had lived in Missouri. And my parents, of course, I mean, in California. But they decided they wanted to move to Missouri, kind of to prepare for the second coming, I think. So there was a. Of Jesus Christ. So there was that kind of trend back in the seventies. But they had a. They wanted to kind of have a quieter lifestyle and have more land and things like that. So they moved to Missouri and bought a big farm. So we lived on the farm. And I have good memories of living on the farm. We lived in one of the houses there on the farm. We call it the little White House. And we lived another red brick house on the farm. And I remember one year for Christmas, my dad and mom gave us a teepee that we. Well, we slept in the living room overnight. For Christmas, we slept to get ready for Christmas. And then when we woke up, my dad, our dad was in a teepee in the middle of the living room dressed as Santa. So we thought that was really cool. But I remember going to starting kindergarten there in Missouri. And my kindergarten teacher, her name was Misses Stowe. And I remember reading books, learning how to read in kindergarten. And Apple ran and ran and ran. I thought it was so exciting to learn how to read.

[03:36] JULIA BROWN: Yeah. So what are some memories from school.

[03:40] KARINA BROWN: Elementary school, yeah, I remember when we were in school in Missouri at that time, we had nap time, and I remember having snacks like the strawberry wafer cookies. And my mom wouldn't give us junk food, so I thought that was so cool. We could get, like, little wafer cookies and at school. But that was a fun, fun time, going to school in Missouri. But we moved around a lot when I was a kid, so we moved from Missouri. So kindergarten in Missouri, and then first grade we moved to Prescott Valley, Arizona, because my dad was going to do a business with my uncle Robert Lovett doing a silver mine. So we lived in Prescott Valley, Arizona, and then we moved back to Missouri. And then I went to second grade in Missouri. And I remember my teacher's name. Actually, her name was misses Guido. And then we went to, we moved to Oregon when I was in third grade because my dad was going to do a business, rabbit farm business with his friend.

[05:01] JULIA BROWN: Did you have to, like, take care of the rabbits?

[05:05] KARINA BROWN: Yeah, we, he paid us, I think, like, $0.10 an hour to push a cart and feed the rabbits in this big, huge, like, long barn type thing with all their cages. So we lived on a trailer on a. It was like a farm ranch. And there was a lot of land, and we used to run around and play and pick wild berries, blueberries.

[05:31] JULIA BROWN: Tell me about your mom and dad.

[05:36] KARINA BROWN: My mom was really. She liked to make friends with different people. She could make friends pretty much everywhere, but she was from Finland, so she came over to the United States when she was 19 and 1969 to go to Brigham young university. And then she and my dad met at BYU, and they got married. And my dad, my dad and mom, like I said, my dad went to law school, but he did different business things at different parts of his life during different parts of his life. But my mom and dad both liked arthem and pretty music. And I remember them having, like, a art zone, like a quiet zone in the house, like, with art supplies and different things. And my mom liked to play classical music, and so did my dad.

[06:37] JULIA BROWN: Did she ever, like, speak finnish?

[06:40] KARINA BROWN: She did a little bit. She didn't teach us finnish, but I would hear her speaking with her sisters, like, on the phone. We learned a couple words, but her sister told her she didn't want, she didn't think that she should teach us finnish because it would confuse us. But her sister lived in California with her kids, so.

[07:01] JULIA BROWN: Was that lisa?

[07:03] KARINA BROWN: Yeah. And I kind of felt sad that I missed out on part of that kind of heritage, but. Yeah. Yeah, but she liked beautiful things, meeting new people, music, art. And she was in the, in the later part of her life, she was in the opera, opera guild in Salt Lake. And my dad started an art monument foundation in the later part of his life. So, yeah.

[07:39] JULIA BROWN: What do you remember about high school?

[07:43] KARINA BROWN: High school? I went to one year of high school in Houston, Texas, and then I went to, I should say elementary. I went to school in Missouri, Arizona, Oregon, and Texas. And then junior high. Went to school in Houston. And a year of high school in Houston. We had, the high school in Houston was pretty big and we had, I had early morning seminary, so I remember getting up at like five in the morning, I think to go to seminary before school because they didn't have release time, seminary. And then we moved to Arizona. And I did cross country in high school. I ran cross country in high school in Houston, Texas. And I played the violin. I started when I was little, but then picked it up again in junior high. So I was in the orchestra in high school. And. Yeah, I enjoyed that. I enjoyed being in the, the orchestra. Yeah, I liked, I always scored higher on like, language arts type things when I was younger.

[09:06] JULIA BROWN: What did you think you were gonna, like, do with the rest of your life when you were in high school?

[09:16] KARINA BROWN: I knew I wanted to go to college, but I wanted to be a mom.

[09:21] JULIA BROWN: When did you meet daddy?

[09:24] KARINA BROWN: I met him in high school in my anatomy and physiology class.

[09:31] JULIA BROWN: What year of high school?

[09:33] KARINA BROWN: It was our senior year, so I met him in like the spring of 1991. So, yeah, he was, he was really smart. And then he invited me on a date and we went on some dates and studied together. And.

[09:54] JULIA BROWN: Where did you live before your mission?

[09:57] KARINA BROWN: Oh, after high school, when I graduated from Arizona, I moved to Utah and I started working in Utah. And then I went to BYU for a semester and U. Of U. And then I went to lds business college before my mission, but I was working and going to school in Utah.

[10:16] JULIA BROWN: Didn't you live with your aunt?

[10:19] KARINA BROWN: Yeah, I lived with my aunt Riitta my mom's sister and her husband and my uncle Bob Maddock. So I moved there the summer after I graduated from high school and was working. And then I started college.

[10:36] JULIA BROWN: When did you leave for your mission?

[10:39] KARINA BROWN: I left in November of 1993.

[10:43] JULIA BROWN: Tell me about it.

[10:44] KARINA BROWN: Yeah, well, it was a really great experience. I went to Guatemala, Quetzaltenango, Guatemala. And it was in the western part of Guatemala. Really pretty. I didn't know what to expect because the Internet wasn't really available then when I left. So the only way you had to research things was going to the library and looking at books or, like, reading National Geographic magazines or something, so I didn't know what to expect. But the people were really lovely, and people had electricity, and some people had outhouses in, you know, their backyards, but some people had indoor plumbing. But I love the food. I love the people. I love the. The environment. It was fun to get to know the people there.

[11:42] JULIA BROWN: Where and when did you get married?

[11:45] KARINA BROWN: Well, dad went on his mission to Romania, and then I went on my mission to Guatemala. And we rode each other the whole time when we were gone. And when I got back from my mission. Then we got married a couple months later.

[12:03] JULIA BROWN: How many months?

[12:07] KARINA BROWN: Like two months. Two and a half months. But we got married in the Salt Lake temple, and. Yeah. So in July of 19. July 22, 1995.

[12:21] JULIA BROWN: What did you study in college?

[12:24] KARINA BROWN: I studied. Well, after my mission, dad and I got married, and we went to Arizona State University, and I studied family science and human development, so I enjoyed that. I was working at. At and T. So the whole time I was going to college, I worked different places, I should say. I worked at cloth World when I was in Utah, and I worked at the garden and roof restaurants. Before my mission, I worked for a property assessment company. Anyway, I had good experiences working, but in. In Arizona, I worked at, at and T and their customer service part time, so that was nice because I got to have health benefits and work part time.

[13:14] JULIA BROWN: Was that your first job in college?

[13:18] KARINA BROWN: Yeah. I liked it because it was. I got to be able to decipher people's voices and kind of understand their emotions and where they were coming from, just talking about their phone bills, which sounds ridiculous, but I was able to kind of reflect and improve my customer service skills in that job.

[13:39] JULIA BROWN: What was it like going to college with dad, like being married?

[13:45] KARINA BROWN: Oh, it was fun. It was fun. We would stay up late, you know, reading each other's papers, going grocery shopping at night, late at night sometimes just kind of being good supports for each other.

[14:04] JULIA BROWN: What was he studying?

[14:06] KARINA BROWN: He studied chemistry and microbiology. Yeah. But then we moved to Michigan in 1998, and he started a master's of public health program at University of Michigan. And I started. He found a program for me to do at Eastern Michigan University in human, environmental, and consumer resources master's degree program. So I got a scholarship and a graduate assistantship, so I didn't have to pay any tuition. Plus they paid me every month to go to school. And he was at University of Michigan, and he got a graduate assistantship his second year so anyway, it was a great experience in Michigan to work on our master's degrees.

[14:50] JULIA BROWN: When did you have your first kid?

[14:53] KARINA BROWN: When I was 27, I got pregnant with Alina and when I was in my master's program, but I had her right before I graduated in May of 2000. So that was really fun.

[15:07] JULIA BROWN: What was that like to be pregnant for the first time?

[15:12] KARINA BROWN: I really enjoyed it. It was fun. I got a kind of sick, but I just made sure to eat and get hydrated. But I was really kind of nervous about being a first time mom. Like, what kind of car seat should I get? What kind of baby clothes? What? You know, just preparing for everything. But it was fun. It was a good experience. Learning, learning experience. I loved. I loved being a mom.

[15:42] JULIA BROWN: That's awesome. When did you have your next kids?

[15:48] KARINA BROWN: Elizabeth was born in 2002 when dad got accepted to medical school. So he was in medical school from 2000, fall of 2000 to, like, may of 2004. So Elizabeth was born in the middle of medical school, and so Alina was about two years old. So that was fun. That was fun.

[16:08] JULIA BROWN: Was that a hard pregnancy or just a hard delivery?

[16:12] KARINA BROWN: That was a hard delivery because she. My blood pressure cut in half cause of the medication they gave me to deliver the baby cause of the pitocin. And she. I told dad that I felt like my heart was slowing down and I was basically dying. But he called the doctors, and they rushed in and got her out really quick, and her face was purple.

[16:42] JULIA BROWN: That's crazy. And then you had me in 2005. And when did you guys move to Texas?

[16:49] KARINA BROWN: We moved to Texas in 2004. So we were in Texas from 2004 to 2007, summer of 2007. So you were born in Texas, and that was a great experience. Your birth and Andy's birth was a lot easier. And you were both delivered at the military hospital at Lackland Air Force base. So that was. Yeah, in San Antonio.

[17:24] JULIA BROWN: When did dad join the military?

[17:27] KARINA BROWN: He joined the military partway through medical school. So he got. I think it was in 2001. He got a three year scholarship through the air force to go to medical school.

[17:36] JULIA BROWN: How many years was he in the air force?

[17:40] KARINA BROWN: He was in for, let's see, nine years.

[17:47] JULIA BROWN: Wow.

[17:48] KARINA BROWN: Yeah. So he did medical school with them, and then his residency and his payback time. So his residency in San Antonio and then his payback time in Las Vegas.

[17:58] JULIA BROWN: What was it like being a mother to young children?

[18:03] KARINA BROWN: I really enjoyed it. It was fun to see all of you develop your different talents and get together with friends to play and do different activities.

[18:18] JULIA BROWN: Yeah, I remember you doing cute stuff for us, like those hedgehog roles, and you would have us help, like, cut the spikes.

[18:26] KARINA BROWN: Oh, yeah. That was fun.

[18:28] JULIA BROWN: That was cute. Yeah. When did we move to Utah from Texas?

[18:36] KARINA BROWN: We moved to Utah in 2010.

[18:40] JULIA BROWN: Why did you want to move to Utah?

[18:44] KARINA BROWN: We moved to Utah because we wanted to live in a place after living in Las Vegas. It was like the desert. I realized I don't like the desert. Dad doesn't either. So we wanted to live in a place that had four seasons, good opportunities for education, arts, culture, and just a smaller community. So we thought Logan would be a great option.

[19:09] JULIA BROWN: And didn't your siblings live in Utah at that time, or did they not?

[19:14] KARINA BROWN: Yeah, several of my siblings already lived here. Yep. And my mom lived here. Your grandma lived here. So it's a good, good opportunity.

[19:28] JULIA BROWN: Why did you decide to, like, start doing community stuff, like healthcare related activism?

[19:36] KARINA BROWN: I started because my mom. Your grandma died in 2013 unexpectedly of a. A stroke, acute hemorrhagic stroke. She died in June 2013, and she didn't have. She didn't have health insurance at the time. So I worry that part of the reason that she died was because she. Maybe she was afraid to call 911 because of the ER bill, or maybe she didn't want to have a big bill or something. So she died alone of a stroke. We know that because she got an autopsy. The medical examiner did an autopsy. So I was. I remember asking her, I said, we were all helping her with different things, financially and things like that. And her sister Riitta and Bob, brother in law Bob were helping her, but. And she had different jobs at different times and had gone back to college and got an interior design degree, but. And she got her CNA license, but she was experiencing financial difficulties at different times in her life. So I remember asking her one time, why don't you just apply for government insurance? And she said, they won't take me because I don't have children and I'm not pregnant. So I got really upset about that, just thinking about that, especially after she died. So I started advocating for health Medicaid expansion, basically, which has already kind of started in Utah, but just kind of speaking up about it with the help of different mentors, including Representative Ray Ward. Anyway, through that process and different experiences, I became one of this. Was invited to be one of the citizen sponsors of Proposition three to expand Medicaid. So that was on the ballot in 2018, and it passed.

[21:41] JULIA BROWN: That's awesome. What made you want to run for office?

[21:48] KARINA BROWN: Partly wanting to be in the details of things and wanting to make a difference. So I ran for office for Utah district five in 2018, the same year that I was on the ballot or proposition three was on the ballot. So I was able to kind of speak up about both, use that as a platform for the proposition three. At that time in Utah, there was real pushback from the republican majority against Medicaid expansion. So that's why it was a ballot initiative, just showing that the majority of Utah voters were in favor of it, of course. So I enjoyed that experience and became more involved in community service after that, after I lost that election.

[22:40] JULIA BROWN: Like what? In what way?

[22:44] KARINA BROWN: I was invited to participate in the Cache Valley Chamber of Commerce Legislative affairs committee. So I've served on that since January of 2019. So that's been a good experience. And I was invited to be on the Logan Regional Hospital governing board and continued my involvement in the democratic healthcare caucus. It all goes back to the idea of being involved and getting organized, which was kind of a message from God to me. After Medicaid expansion, Governor Herbert's version of Medicaid expansion was defeated in 20 1617. I was upset because an organization had been lobbying against it, and I got an email from them saying that they defeated the Medicaid expansion. This was before we got it on the ballot, and they had made so many phone calls and contacts, and I remember thinking, how did this happen? I didn't know people were doing these things behind the scenes, and it was like a message from God to me. Well, you need to do what they're doing. They're organized, and they're getting involved in the details of things. So that's what you need to do, but in a different way. So ever since that moment, I've tried to do that, and it's been good. I just read an article this morning from Governor Cox saying that they've worked through this health collaborative they're doing to provide postpartum coverage for Medicaid clients up to a year after pregnancy and other things they're doing with Medicaid. And so I think just in a couple years, things have changed and the culture has changed in Utah. I ran for office in 2020 as a democratic candidate for lieutenant governor with Chris Peterson. I was invited to do that. He interviewed multiple people and invited me to be his running mate. So that was a great experience, too. Sometimes one of my republican friends jokes and says, democrats can't make a difference or do anything in Utah. I said, oh, yes, they can. So anyway, now I have a job for a Republican. The county executive is a policy analyst, so I help with health and human services. I got more education after I'd graduated with my master's degree in 2020, getting the Harvard public leadership credential. I started it online in the spring of 2020, and I finished it in June of 2022.

[25:36] JULIA BROWN: Didn't you just, like, reach out to one of the people there?

[25:40] KARINA BROWN: Yeah.

[25:41] JULIA BROWN: How did that happen again?

[25:42] KARINA BROWN: I emailed the dean of the whole school, and I said, hey, because the application online says you need to have five years of work experience and this and this. I said, I have work experience, but I had been home with you kids. I hadn't had a traditional full time job for years, but I said, I've done all these things. I did this for Medicaid expansion. I did this. And this was before I was the candidate for lieutenant governor, when I reached out to him, said, I think you should consider non traditional students. And so he said, well, we'd love to have you. So I need to update him and send him another email. And thank you for accepting me into the program. This is what I've done since then. Now I work as a policy analyst for the cash county executive, and I help with housing. We did a housing crisis task force last year that I was co chair of that. It won an award from the American Planning Association, Utah chapter, and we got grant funding from the ombudsman's office to do public education videos. Anyway, I've just learned that when you, when you want to get involved and make a difference, it can. Good things can happen.

[27:01] JULIA BROWN: What has been your favorite, like, project that you've been. Yeah. That you worked on?

[27:10] KARINA BROWN: I would say Medicaid expansion.

[27:12] JULIA BROWN: Yeah.

[27:13] KARINA BROWN: Just because before Medicaid was expanded, single adults in the state of Utah, you know, that were in a certain economic demographic, couldn't have. Didn't have the option to have any kind of government.

[27:30] JULIA BROWN: Was your mom a citizen?

[27:33] KARINA BROWN: She didn't become a citizen until a couple years before she died. She died in 2013. I think she became a citizen in 2011. Yeah. I think she felt a little nostalgic and sad because she didn't. I don't think she felt like she belonged in Finland or the United States.

[27:54] JULIA BROWN: Yeah, kind of backtracking. But when did your parents get a divorce?

[27:59] KARINA BROWN: They got a divorce in 1991. In the fall of 1991.

[28:05] JULIA BROWN: And as, like, the oldest sibling, how do you think that experience affected you versus, like, your siblings?

[28:14] KARINA BROWN: I was kind of expecting that because as the oldest, I could kind of observe things and understand what was going on because my youngest brother Brian was six at the time. So I would say it wasn't easy, but it was expected for me, whereas some of my siblings didn't expect it at all. Yeah.

[28:44] JULIA BROWN: What are your favorite foods?

[28:48] KARINA BROWN: I really like spicy foods and international foods.

[28:52] JULIA BROWN: Yeah. Like what?

[28:55] KARINA BROWN: I brought kimchi to work last week because I wanted to eat kimchi every day, but I like. I like kind of those pickled vegetable type things, like pickled vegetables. I like bread and cheese and caramel popcorn and apples and bananas. I like pretty much every kind of food, except I don't like goat cheese.

[29:24] JULIA BROWN: Yeah, it's funny. Hmm. What are your hobbies?

[29:35] KARINA BROWN: Lately, it's been listening to audiobooks. This year, I made a goal to increase my knowledge, ideas, listening to books. I like listening to books.

[29:54] JULIA BROWN: What books?

[29:56] KARINA BROWN: This year I've been. I've listened to several leadership books to help me with work, and I've listened to a couple history books, and I'm gonna be listening to some parenting books. I have a couple on my list that I wanna listen to.

[30:12] JULIA BROWN: Are you excited to be a grandma?

[30:14] KARINA BROWN: Yeah, I'm really excited. So Alina's due the baby girl in November, so I'm excited. That'll be great. Yeah.

[30:25] JULIA BROWN: Do you like having son in laws? Sons in law?

[30:28] KARINA BROWN: Yeah, they're wonderful. They're awesome. Like a great addition to the family.

[30:35] JULIA BROWN: Yeah. Does it make you sad that Alina lives in Kuwait now?

[30:41] KARINA BROWN: You know, I'm sad that I don't get to see them as much, but I'm excited to visit them in November to help her when she has the baby. So I should say right now our family is Alina and Jamal, her husband, and they live in Kuwait, and then Elizabeth and her husband Mohammed, and they live in Salt Lake, but they're moving to New York. And Julia, who's graduating from high school and is going to start college in a couple months, and then our son Carl, who's going to be a junior.

[31:14] JULIA BROWN: And he makes shoes.

[31:15] KARINA BROWN: Yeah.

[31:16] JULIA BROWN: Wonder where that's going to go. Yeah. Cool. What do you want to be called?

[31:22] KARINA BROWN: Oh, another one. Kind of backtrack. Another one of my hobbies is I like to exercise.

[31:28] JULIA BROWN: Yeah, you definitely do. What do you want to be called? Like, grandma Moomie. Something like.

[31:36] KARINA BROWN: I don't know, whatever. Mumi sounds better than grandma.

[31:42] JULIA BROWN: Yeah, it does.

[31:43] KARINA BROWN: Kinda has a better. That's finnish for grandma. Yeah.

[31:46] JULIA BROWN: If I think of it, like, in English, that kind of sounds like moomi me. Mommy. Yeah.

[31:59] KARINA BROWN: How do you feel about graduating from high school?

[32:02] JULIA BROWN: I feel great. Yeah. I feel like you and dad have supported me a lot.

[32:09] KARINA BROWN: Well, I'm excited to see you develop your artistic talents and see what you create.

[32:19] JULIA BROWN: Yeah. Is there anything, any, like, parenting advice you would give your kids for their future kids?

[32:31] KARINA BROWN: That's a good question. I would say make sure that your kids are well fed and well rested and before you, and to be compassionate towards them because they might have some kind of physical condition that you're not aware of that's impacting their behavior. So just be kind and loving and make sure their physical needs are met.

[32:57] JULIA BROWN: What was your favorite part of being a mom?

[33:04] KARINA BROWN: Probably doing? Taking your kids to do fun activities. Yeah.

[33:11] JULIA BROWN: Yeah. I loved going to, like, the Lowe's, like, woodwork things.

[33:15] KARINA BROWN: Okay. Yeah. Yeah, those are fun. The woodworking. Woodworking class builder.

[33:23] JULIA BROWN: Are you excited to go to Finland this summer?

[33:26] KARINA BROWN: Yes. Julia and I are going to Finland for her graduation trip, so I'm really excited.

[33:31] JULIA BROWN: And you went to Finland with your mom when you were 17?

[33:36] KARINA BROWN: Yeah, I went to Finland with her in the summer of 1990, and we stayed in her town, which is Joensuu and then we went to Russia for a couple days, to St. Petersburg for a couple days. I remember feeling really uneasy and scared when we were in Russia, but. Yeah, but it was a beautiful experience being in Finland. I got to see my grandparents, my mom's parents, and I'm glad we went when we did because my grandmother died just a couple months later.

[34:13] JULIA BROWN: Do you feel like that experience gave you some insight into yourself?

[34:21] KARINA BROWN: Yeah. Yeah, I think so. Just knowing where half of me came from and just kind of understanding more about the culture, so, yeah.

[34:34] JULIA BROWN: That's awesome. Well, thank you.

[34:38] KARINA BROWN: Thank you. Thank you, Julia.

[34:39] JULIA BROWN: That was fun. Thanks, mom.

[34:41] KARINA BROWN: Thank you.