Kat Kouzina and Dabney Farmer

00:00 Hi, my name is Kat Kouzina and I am 21 years old. Today's date is October 7, 2022. I am recording from Charlottesville, Virginia, and my partner's name is Dabney Farmer. Okay.

00:18 Hey, my name is Dabney Farmer. I'm recording from my home in Charlottesville, Virginia. I'm 30 something. Do I have to say the exact age? 30. No, it's okay. 30. They'll say 36. 37 is good enough. And I think that's it for now.

00:44 Okay.

00:45 And Kat and Dabney why did you.

00:47 Want to do this interview today?

00:50 Well, I wanted to do it because it sounded really interesting and I was interested in meeting, talking to new people. And I love one small steps. I love their animation on how they do stories. And they animate, like a little video on somebody's life. And each of them is animated a little differently. Because I love animations. I try and illustrate in my spare time. Here's my business. Cardinal.

01:21 I love that.

01:22 Yeah. And I've written a book. Well, I don't like the COVID because it doesn't show my illustrations, but, yeah, I illustrated this book that's all cartoons on real life. So I love cart graphic novels or anything animated that's on a real story that's actually happened. So that was my biggest reason for doing this.

01:50 Awesome. For me personally, I didn't know much about one small step until, like, my exposure to it in the classroom setting. The class through which I found out about one small step is literally called political dialogue. And I'm taking that class as a prerequisite for my global studies and education minor. And in the political dialogue class, my professor really aims to engage us in conversations about issues that seem controversial or more polarized now in America. And I believe that there is a strong value in being able to discuss these issues in a way that is respectful and cognizant of other people's experiences, beliefs, and values in order to be able to find more effective solutions to policy. So I guess I'm just Maureen Gate. I'm both interested in, like, that academic aspect of having these kind of conversations. But I also think it's very important for institutions to give back to the surrounding local communities and to engage with the surrounding local communities. And because I am an out of state student, I'm not originally from Charlottesville. I was really excited to just be able to meet someone from the community.

03:09 That's good to know.

03:11 Thank you both for those very intuitive and thoughtful responses. Right now, I'm going to add each.

03:18 Of your bios to the chat and.

03:22 If you could just read them out.

03:23 Loud and feel free to ask any sort of questions that come to mind.

03:28 Any sort of curiosity points.

03:30 So I'll start out with Daphne's bio.

03:32 And Kat, if you could read that.

03:34 Out loud and then feel free to ask any questions that come to mind.

03:37 For you, and then I will do the same for you, Dabney

03:41 All right, I'm trying to look at the chat.

03:46 Okay, so the bio is. Dabney Farmer lives in Charlottesville, Virginia, and enjoys making new and unique art. She writes and draws comics on her brother. Her first self published book is titled life with Lee, and it is a graphic novel memoir about her early life growing up with her autistic little brother, having a family or she writes that having a family member with a disability in your life can be overwhelming, stressful, and difficult, to say the least. But that doesn't mean that there isn't a side to autism. That's funny. And I actually was very, very excited when I read your bio, Dabney because one of the reasons that I'm so passionate about education reform is similarly, or was founded through my experiences working with students with special needs, which was prompted by my nephew's diagnosis with autism a few years ago. So I haven't actually had many opportunities to talk to people with similar experiences. Having someone in their family with a disability and how that affects them, how that, whether it's positive or negative, how they see, you know, where they see that policy is missing the mark and supporting these students, whether it's with interventions, whether it's with opportunities for job placements and adaptive living, vocational skills and other areas. So I think that was very, that really stuck out to me and got me extra excited about this chat.

05:25 That's great. You know, my mom actually, she said she went to Uva like two or three times just to talk about my brother because autism was so new back in the eighties. There was. According to her, there was. I had this in the book, but I think it might have gotten cut for time that I drew it. But I don't know if it's in this draft that she. That there was only like one paragraph about autism in the books at UVA at one point versus now there's like a whole books on them. So clearly things have changed.

06:05 Yeah, there's definitely more awareness, I think, to autism, which is great because now we're better able to support these students. But I think there's also just a change. Like a. I feel that there is a cultural change around how members without disabilities perceive those with disabilities. It seems to be moving in a more progressive light, and that makes me very much. I very much view people through a strength based lens in general, but I recognize that not everybody has those experiences, and it's really frustrating, especially when you're trying to advocate for someone in your family.

06:48 Yeah, that's true. Very true.

06:51 How old is your brother? Is he younger?

06:53 Yeah, he's younger than me. I kind of drew that. I always draw myself a little taller, but, yeah, now he's taller than me just because he's a guy. He's about two and a half years younger than me.

07:10 And then do you. Do you guys live together or is he also in the Charlottesville community?

07:16 No, we all live together. We started a group home for one, which is unusual. We. We wanted. We couldn't find the right group home for him, so we just started our own group home here in our house, which was really hard. We had to fill out a lot of paperwork, get the right mister waiver, and make sure he was on the right tier. Like, he had to be on tier three. It was, like, a long process, and they usually don't do group homes just for one, when it's hosted by the family. But we managed to get it to work. And so this is how we take care of my brother full time. Cause he's happier here than in another group home.

08:05 Yeah, that totally makes sense. May I ask what, like, difficulties and I guess, what barriers you faced? What? When you were trying to find the group home that was most appropriate for his needs, and then where do you feel like, what was missing in that search that prompted you to start your own?

08:28 Oh, well, we couldn't find a good group home that had anything he liked. Like, everything he liked. Like, one group home didn't have baths, and he takes three baths a day, which isn't good for the drought, but that's his, like, stimulus. But they. This one group home only had showers and said he'd just have to live with that. We're like, nope. And then there was another group home. It had a bath, but it was, like, way out in the country, and there was nowhere. No grocery stores. He loves taking his other stimulus is going to the grocery store and library, just to walk around and pick things out. So. And then one was too close to a highway. We were just worried he'd wander out because he likes to wander. So there was, like. There wasn't one perfect group home except our own house. So then it just became clear, we need to start. Just have a group home here.

09:26 Yeah. Yeah, I definitely think it's that. That's one thing that I've also noticed with my nephew is because people on the spectrum have such niche interests. They are interests that bring them a significant amount of comfort. And not tailoring their opportunities to actually have access to those things is very detrimental to their progress and their just ability to make the most out of life. Yeah, kind of had a similar experience, but instead of a group home, my nephew is currently 13. And when he was leaving kindergarten, my sister was having a really hard time finding a schooling experience that was best for his needs. So she's actually homeschooling him. And I. I mean, I know she does a phenomenal job and he's very responsive to her, but at the end of the day, I personally believe that what is best for him is to get that social engagement that he's missing. He also has specific language impairment. He has a language delay. In addition, autism. So, yes, he goes to social classes, and yes, he participates in, like, community oriented clubs. But at the end of the day, like, he is really missing those opportunities to engage with peers and to practice those social skills that make him so nervous in order to be more adaptable, I guess. And I wasn't. I was actually going to ask you if you guys had any similar complications with finding the education that was best for my brother.

11:13 Oh, oh, we've written. We read a whole other book.

11:18 I wish I read your book before this chat. I feel like I would have had, like, so much.

11:23 You can find it on Amazon, or you can find it or. I've got a website, life with Lee, adventures and autism, on either webtoons or tapas. But, yeah, we have loads of bad and good experiences with school is. My mom actually had to be. She homeschooled him for a while, and then at one point she was actually his teacher, which she didn't get paid for. They basically just begged her to do it. And that was a. That helped a little. And then we had several different homeschool teachers that I could write a list. Like, they were all just random people. Like the guy with an old man's hat, the guy that was always tired because his girlfriend was pregnant. So he wasn't really concentrating on Lee, the hippie lady, the other hippie lady and the grumpy lady. Some of them were nicer than others, but they didn't last long. They just kind of came and went.

12:31 And were these, like, were these homeschool teachers or.

12:34 Yes, those were all homeschool teachers. But we did have briefly, my brother could go to a regular middle school, but he got bigger and more high maintenance, and he was harder for the teachers to handle. Like, he'd have his good days and his bad days, don't we? Yeah. Yeah. And Murray was terrible. Murray's solution was to, like, lock him in, like, a closet for, like, a few minutes if he had a tantrum. And they said it's a padded closet, so he's safe. And we're like, we hate that. We don't like that idea. So their solution was to put mats around him and let him get. Have his tantrum in that. We still hated that idea. So we had. That's a. We had to change schools a few times. That was pretty hard. And then there was. They didn't like that my brother would bite his hand, like, as a stem, but they wanted to focus on that more than, you know, they were hyper focusing on trying to get him to stop doing that versus teaching him to read. And we're like, we don't care about the hand biting. Just teach him. Teach him to read, teach him to do math. But the hand biting is like, we don't care. So, yeah, we had some rough experiences.

14:05 It was. I'm actually. I know that the Virginia Institute of Autism is in our local community, but I actually. I don't know when it was founded. Was it. I assume it wasn't around when your brother was going through his schooling?

14:18 Actually, we helped start. We helped start via. He was one of their first kids, but then they kicked him out. So. Yeah, they decided they only wanted, like, younger kids, and he got too old, so they ungraciously kicked him out. So we don't like via. We like lutheran family services.

14:42 I haven't heard of lutheran family services, actually.

14:45 Yeah, it's. Well, they've changed the name. It used to be Lomano, now it's called lutheran family services or vice versa. They've changed it. Yeah, a lot of these organizations changed their names. We were working with creative family solutions for a while, but that we just found Lamona was a better fit for us.

15:08 Yeah. I think you also just touched on some prominent issues with how education handles students on the spectrum. Or I guess choice doesn't help students on the spectrum. One of the things that you mentioned was the fact that kids can age out of the education system, which is huge because some, especially students on the spectrum, really thrive off of having that structure. And when we take that structure in that environment away from them, it's very disruptive to their sense of normalcy, and they react a lot more adversely than other people typically would. And also just you also mentioned, like, classroom regulation and teacher quality as prominent. Yeah. I've noticed that so many special education teachers are not actually qualified to handle or not very knowledgeable about students that they're working with. And so I'm from Florida, and I don't know if this is the case in Virginia. I think it might be different. But for us, the way that my public school system organized our sped classrooms was, you know, they. They take, like, the spectrum of the disability, and all the students who are higher achieving on their spectrums are grouped into a classroom. So even though they have different needs because of their respective preferences, they're still grouped into this classroom with students just because they're all deemed, like, higher achieving. And I definitely see that as also problematic because, like, I mean, how do you expect a teacher to be able to navigate a classroom like that without help, without structure, without resources? And a lot of those are the teachers, too. Like, it's like, I want to blame them, but also, like, I want to.

17:06 Blame the system because, yeah, it's a bad system wherever.

17:14 What? So. So through those lived experiences that you had with your brother, where, like, what suggestions would you make for, like, Virginia policymakers? Like, where do you think we're. We're really not.

17:27 We're really missing the bigger picture in order to. Not just with education, but, yeah, hire help, hire train better teachers. But another thing, just getting our group home started, we had to have this mister waiver that was frozen for a year and a half because whatever reason, the governor wanted to use it for something else, and we couldn't do the group home until that waiver was unfrozen. Like, he wanted to use it on roads or something. So that was like, that one little thing made the huge difference. I wrote. I actually drew a whole comic on that, but it's also get used to having a lot of paperwork. But now a lot of the paperwork is online, which. But we still have regular paperwork we got to turn in.

18:26 What is. What does that paperwork look like, if I may ask? Like what? Well, what does the governor care about?

18:34 Well, a lot of it is they just say they want you to write a journal. Like, what did you do today? And they're all, it's like a typical teacher. They're like, you can't say I went to the barn or I went to the movies. You got to say, we walked in and Lee was enthusiastic because. And you have to explain because he was smiling and doing happy hand waving. You can't just say Lee was happy and leave it like that. They'll go, then they'll write back and go, no, we want more details. And it's like, okay, so it's like filling out these long, daily logs of everything we did and then explaining, trying to. We also have to have a fire drill, like, once a month, which is a pain because Lee's always like, I don't want to wake up now. He doesn't like loud noises.

19:30 Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I was gonna say the, like, sensory sensitivity. I would. I don't see how that's necessarily the most important aspect of his life. Like, I mean, of course, being aware of when he's in an emergency is important, but I remember from my nephew, and this was also one of the reasons we had to take him out of school. My sister didn't get prompted on the fact that they were doing emergency drills in school, that he was at that age in school where he was going to be doing emergency drills. So they had a school shooter drill, they had a fire drill, and they had a tornado drill all on the same day, and it completely bugged him out. He won't even go into a bathroom with a hand dryer because it reminds him of the fire drill. And this is eight years later. So it's. I mean, it is traumatizing when that communication isn't happening. But it's also really weird to see, like, what politicians deem as a priority for these students.

20:35 Yeah, well, our big worry is when we were worried and when we took. When Lee was in regular school, if they had a fire drill, he'd get confused because he'd walk out of the school and go, yay, school, schools over. And then you were like, no, you got to go back in. He's like, what are you talking about? I'm outside the building. It means school's over. And then he'd throw a tantrum because he's like, oh, no, you tricked me.

21:01 Yeah, I could. I can see that happening for sure. I mean, again, it's the disruption of a routine, which is what people on the spectrum really thrive on, is that routine and that consistency, that transparency and what is happening with our day.

21:19 Exactly.

21:21 Yeah, that was very insightful.

21:25 Well, how is your nephew doing now? How old is he now?

21:30 He is now 13. Yeah. And he's still homeschooled. I mean, I'm sure you're aware of the political climate in Florida right now and especially how polarized education is there. So definitely not a good time trying to put school. But my sister is looking to move to the DC metropolitan area. Yeah. Just trying to, like, put him. And also my niece, who. She doesn't have autism, but she just wants, like, an education experience where they could go to school together, but still a school that meets both of their needs and does it inappropriately. And that's really hard to find.

22:18 Oh, yeah. Schools are always hard to find.

22:22 Yeah. And he. I mean, he's gotten through a lot of ABA therapy. He's a been able to kick some of his, like, more aggressive behaviors, but with language, he very much just struggle, and we think it's just more connected to his anxiety. So he's been doing horse therapy, actually, and it's both, like, a physical therapy for him just because, you know, he's not going to school, he's not getting, like, recess, he's not in, like, a club sport. So just. They want to keep him active, but also it's, you know, being around animals is comforting. It's relaxing. So it helps him unclench his jaw when he speaks. Your edge talks like this. He's so anxious. He's just so anxious.

23:11 Yeah.

23:13 So I think this. It literally started maybe three months ago, has been helping him a lot, and then he loves his social classes. Like, he looks forward to Saturday social classes. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, we're. They're doing the best they can to give him, because I can't think of a better than normal life, whatever that means anymore.

23:40 Yeah.

23:42 But there are definitely challenges. There are definitely challenges. And, I mean, you know, we just obviously want what he wants for himself, the same things that we would want for everyone else, you know, friends, access to activities and things that make him excited to learn and opportunities that challenge him and interest him. And, you know, I love the social class that he's a part of. I think that the work that she does is great. She actually, the director of his social program was principal at a Montessori school in New York for the beginning her career. And I actually don't know too much about Montessori schools. I know that they have a more progressive model, you know, that they're not called to the same standards that they mix classes.

24:31 I was working in a Montessori school as a floater for a while. They are nice daycares. Yeah. They're like a preschool. Really nice preschools.

24:46 What. What makes them really nice, in your opinion?

24:51 Well, I guess it's more structured activities. They don't just let all the kids run. They have, like, special activities to keep the kids stimulated the whole time. And then. But then they have the standard snack time, lunchtime reading time, outside play. But I guess it's more the structured activities that people go for. Those like all the books are educational.

25:24 Are the classes mixed ages? Because I know some Montessori schools do that.

25:30 Well, when I went, or is it all kids were like between five and three? So I guess that was their mixed ages.

25:39 But they were interacting with students who would be like deemed first or second graders.

25:46 No, I think when I, the one I went to that I was only there for about six weeks as a floater, but they were between five and after you got to be six, you aged out and then it was between five and three were the age limits.

26:06 Gotcha. Very interesting. Yeah. I have some friends that I've met at Uva who said that they went to a mantra story specifically like preschool and kindergarten room.

26:17 Yeah.

26:18 And felt like they gained a lot out of it as compared to what they would have been a traditional public school system because specifically for the amount of opportunities that they have to learn compared to like versus just play, even if they're learning through play. But. And also the structure, like, and also the lack thereof in some ways. So it's like, again, that opportunity for the kid to be like, this is something that I really like and I'm going to do it because I really like it. And to have a teacher in a system be like, yeah, you should and you can. It's great for learning, especially such a young age. So to just like foster that love for learning, I at some point in my life have I recently been considering either working in curriculum development or in some way informing policy. So I love hearing about all of these anecdotal experiences that people have so that I can really understand, like where policy is missing the mark.

27:21 Yeah, that's always good. We need more special education teachers.

27:28 Yeah. I am about to submit an application for Teach for America and I think that through them, I mean, the need specifically for special need teachers right now is really high, but especially in resource communities, in high trauma communities. And I think that that is where my placement will be. Now, this is tricky because again, I am only 21 years old and I recognize that I don't have all the answers, I don't have all the experiences and all the knowledge that I want to have in order to be able to best support students with various needs. But at the end of the day, it's like I think of the counterfactual and I'm like, what happens when you have a person in the classroom that doesn't really care about the success of these students and also just has such an adverse perspective of what their education should look like. A lot more hands on versus hands off. Not seeing their individuals through a strength based lens, not being knowledgeable about like stems and the fact that they're actually very useful and comforting for students versus a distraction for themselves.

28:43 Yeah, people need to be educated on stems.

28:48 Yeah. And I mean, amongst a lot of things, but those are just like. I mean, also some issues that you touch on, some issues that I have seen. My nephew's name is Jaden. And yeah, his really big one was pinching when he was younger. And obviously that's okay. Like, you're gonna. Yeah, yeah.

29:10 Fingernails really short and he still manages to pinch.

29:16 He still pinches?

29:18 Oh, yeah. Every now and then. But that's why we cut his fingernails extremely short, so that he won't. But it doesn't stop him. But at least it makes it a little easier. But we can usually see when he's getting agitated by his hand movements. We can tell. So we know to. We need to know to give him space.

29:42 Yeah.

29:43 Okay, so I am going to just pop in real quick. I wanted to give you a chance.

29:48 To talk a little bit more about what you just described. So, Dabney, if you could just read out kat's bio. My bio.

30:00 All right. It's okay. Feel free, of course, to ask any.

30:04 Questions that come to mind.

30:06 All right. Hi there. All right, you're a russian american college student from St. Augustine. Sorry if I don't say the name. Right. And you describe yourself as a modern day hippie. That's cool. And in your free time, you enjoy going outside cooking and catching up with close friends. And you mainly work as a server, but you're researching. All right, please forgive me if I butcher this name. Ped geologist. Study. And you study speech communication disorder education policy, which you talked about earlier in deaf studies and about including education on gay rights, pro choice, and anti gun violence. Did I miss anything?

30:58 No, not at all.

31:00 All right.

31:03 All right.

31:04 That's awesome. So have you been studying sign language? Because I did take that briefly, but I was not an expert in any way. Yeah, I know some signs. Like, yes, and then there's the sign for bathroom to my brother's favorite signs. And there's the sign for cat and sign for tree. But then there's a bunch of other signs I couldn't. I had a hard time having a whole conversation. I could only do simple things.

31:36 Yeah, I definitely feel like without the structure of the classroom and also just how great I think my curriculum is at UVA, specifically with the ASL department, helped me acquire the language much faster than I would have through, like, YouTube videos or something. But, I mean, it is challenging. I think I'm a big gesture in general, so I like the idea of being able to use my hands while I speak. But, yeah, when I decided that I wanted to study speech communication disorders, although I'm not really sure now if that'll be what I go to grad school for. But I am very passionate about finding where certain. Trying to find, like, the word that I'm looking for, where certain jobs, for lack of better terms, I guess, are unequitable and where they're not meeting the diverse needs of their workforce or their students, et cetera. Environments was the word I was looking for. What environments are like, meeting the needs of the people that are in them. And, you know, we talked about so much about speech disorders, but we never talked about communication disorders.

32:58 Yeah, big difference.

33:00 And that they're very different. And that prompted the question for me. I was like, you know what? Yeah, I do want to learn other languages, but who says that they have to be verbal?

33:11 That's true.

33:13 And I am really grateful because it allows me to. It has allowed me to expose myself to people, a history, a culture that I otherwise wouldn't have been able to. So, yeah, the language is great, but it's like, you know, we think about how much of deaf history isn't written down because it was passed down orally, gesturally. So it's neat just having, like, this communication modality that others don't.

33:49 Yeah, it's true. Is there any one particular sign that it's different, different places? Like the one I learned, the one for dog, it turns out there's two. My brother knew that, and I didn't. They're like, yeah, he kept doing what he gets. He would get mad at our dog, and he would just pat. He would pat his side and then look for under the table, and we couldn't figure out what that meant. And then I took sign language and went, oh, that's the sign for dog. But they had a different sign where you pat your hip and I think you click your fingers because there's, like, sometimes there's several different signs for one word. Like, there's 500 words for snow, apparently.

34:36 Yeah, that's a very quick question. So I think a common misconception is that there's only one sign language, but there are multiple sign languages for every respective spoken language. Maybe not necessarily the case in African because they have a lot more dialects than other languages do. But those variations in signs are very much exist. Like, if I was to go to even the UK right now and try to use my american sign language, deaf people would not understand me because british sign language is completely different. And then there's also those differences in regions. So even, like, in America, some signs. Like, to give you an example, there are two ways to sign breakfast. Like, you can do a bee by your mouth for breakfast, or you can do food. Morning.

35:24 Yeah, my brother's big with food. Eat. He does the sign.

35:30 Yeah. So, yeah, so it is hard, I guess, to standardize that just as much as it is to have, like, a universal language. I know we're moving towards English, but it's difficult and in some ways, maybe not even correct to have this universal language. But I was really excited when I found out that my nephew was also taking it. And it seems like your brother tried to use ASL as another, like, substitute for a communication.

36:01 Better at it than we are. We're embarrassed by that. He knows. He'll say, sometimes do a random sign and we're like, oh, God, what does that mean? And we'll have to look it up. Like, yeah. And he's done. He's big with. Turn around, turn around. Like we could. He does this one in the car. If we drive past a place he really wants to go, he'll be like, turn around, turn around, turn around. It's like, I want to go there.

36:30 Does he sign and verbalize at the same time, or does he, like, prefer one over the other?

36:37 Yeah, if he can. He can kind of say pizza, but he knows that it's. He'll generally just sign pizza. And he can say yes. And it kind of comes off muffled, but he can say the word. It just kind of comes off a little muffled, but we understand what he means.

36:57 Yeah, that is really interesting. I wish more students, especially in special education classrooms, were exposed to sign language, because I actually don't know the literature on it. So this is, like, purely anecdotal, but I found that for whatever. For whatever reason, it's a lot less stressful for students to just not have to speak. They'd rather just sign. Yeah, yeah. I mean, there's a lot of pressure on us to speak in certain ways at certain times, so it's a lot. Especially when they're juggling all of these other nuances.

37:41 Yeah. When I took a CP.

37:44 CPR.

37:44 No, that was another class I had to take for learning, for being in La Mano. But when I took sign language, we had to have. Our final was going to a restaurant and ordering everything in sign language. So I kept ordering a lot of pizza because that was the one sign I remember the most. But I was terrible. I couldn't remember what the sign for drink was or. Oh, yeah, that's right.

38:12 Yeah. Like a cup.

38:14 Yeah, but you had to spend. You had to order the whole thing in sign language and avoid talking the whole time.

38:21 I mean, difficult, but it can be done. I mean, yeah, it can be done for. The one thing that I really like about our Uva program was even though I learned sign language virtually because I started the curriculum during the pandemic. Um, but as soon as I hopped on that zoom call from the get go, mic's off, full immersion. You're just there. You, when you enter that classroom, your voice off. Um, and we're only gesturing. We're only speaking with our hands. We're only pantomiming. If you don't know the sign, you fingerspell, and then you learn the sign. Um, I mean, it was daunting, and it was a really, it was a tricky adjustment, but I loved it, and I, like, I definitely feel like that's how languages should be taught. It's just there's going to jump right into this. When you enter this classroom off, like, like your natural communication language is off. I had that same experience with spanish and high school grads, and I forgot most of it now, unfortunately, but there was no to my spanish classrooms ever.

39:28 Yeah, well, it's different. Each class I went to when I did mine sign language, I did at Piedmont, you're doing at Uva, so you probably don't have the same teacher. I had a, my teacher was actually deaf, so she would encourage you to go to class, and she had a sign up that said, leave your voices in the hall. You weren't allowed to talk in your class.

39:52 Really?

39:53 Had to.

39:56 Yep.

39:57 What's your.

39:58 I am. I'm fortunate.

40:01 What's your class like, your, um, sign language class?

40:07 My, okay. My first professor was deaf. He comes from a deaf family. He has deaf children. So there is that, like, lineage and that cultural backing in his family. The person who is the director of the program who taught my second class, he is the child of deaf parents, and two of his siblings are hearing. Two of his siblings are deafendenn, if I remember correctly. So he, if we had more specific questions, that we were just really struggling with signing, which was great, but he again, like, he didn't use it. Like, he doesn't use his voice if he can help it. He does, though. I found to add a lot more, like, nuanced sounds to certain words. Um, because he can hear, but it's. It's like he won't speak, but, for example, like, if it's a sound that starts with an s, he'll do, like, s, or if there's, like, a peer d in the sound, like, he'll do the phoneme, but he won't. He won't, like, say the word. And I, to me, that's really helpful for, like, language acquisition because it bridges those two language modalities. But I could see how that would be virtually pointless in a deaf school, whether or you don't actually produce a sound in conjunction with your sign production. Yeah, I mean, I love it. I wouldn't trade it for anything. I wish that I. That I didn't have to, like, stop my curriculum. I tutor it now, but I still don't. Like, that's only once a week again. Like, we had class five days a week. The first year and a half of my program, we had class five days a week. And then for the last year of my program, we had class three times a week. So it cuts down on how often you're in the classroom, but, I mean, only some, like, that's still three times a week, even if not five times a week versus once a week. So I missed the structure, like I said, I don't know if it's just like, school's too busy or I'm not disciplined enough, but I find it really to just practice on my own without that structure. Maybe I need to find some more deaf clubs and organizations locally to be a part of.

42:35 Yeah, I'm sure there are some around here.

42:39 There's gotta be.

42:40 Yeah.

42:41 I mean, especially with the Virginia deaf and blind school and Stoughton there.

42:47 Yeah. Oh, that's right. That's in Waynesboro. We always pass it that says the death and blind school. Like, be careful crossing the road.

43:02 Yeah. But I haven't had the chance to observe. I would be really interested, because I've actually heard that the VSDB does a lot of things wrong in terms of their education and administration, but I would be interested to see what that looks like and how that compares to issues that public schools are having.

43:26 Yeah.

43:29 So I'm just going to pop in.

43:30 Here real quick and, you know, of course, as I mentioned, feel free to.

43:34 Use the conversation prompt, but I thought.

43:36 I'd just raise a question as you both sort of have shared your experience with special education, both with family members.

43:44 But also in your own learning experiences.

43:47 And you guys talked a little bit about how that has influenced your desire.

43:53 To be a little bit more involved.

43:54 Politically because, of course, like, legislation a lot of times plays into significant and.

43:59 Like, real change that you see in the education space.

44:03 And so I was hoping, you know, I could hear from both of you.

44:06 Of whether that has, in fact, kind of led you to be a little.

44:09 Bit more engaged with, like, what's happening.

44:11 Politically in the state or on a national level, or even on, you know, of course, a local level, or whether.

44:18 That'S kind of geared you away from it or you've had more challenging experiences with that.

44:24 Okay, all right, you got this. You can start Dabney and I'll follow up.

44:31 Well, I'm not really big with politics, but like I said, with the Mister waiver and the tears free, like, whenever I vote, I try to make sure it's somebody that appreciates special needs things. Like, if I do my research and it's somebody that I fear is going to, like, freeze an Mister waiver, even though now we're at a point where we don't have to worry about Mister waivers, I remember I don't want another family to go through that, so I won't vote for a governor or somebody that's going to freeze special need things or that's why I wasn't thrilled when Trump was voted in, because he's not big with, he doesn't understand special needs kids at all. But it seems like nobody ever likes the president. So I generally concentrate more on the, the views then stuff like the little things versus some of the bigger things. I never understand. Politics is confusing.

45:39 I will agree. In that sense, it definitely takes a special environment to be able to talk about political issues in a way that is academic and not polarizing. Um, and I come from a, from a family where that, that isn't very politically engaged. Like, we weren't the kind of family that would sit down at the dinner table and throw on the news and like, have this, like, really highly academic conversation about where policy is missing the mark, like that. That wasn't what my experience was growing up. And even in grade school, I would say, yeah, I mean, you know, teachers are kind of limited in what they can and can't say in the classroom. Even my, I mean, I could guess which way my history teachers swung, but they were never allowed to explicitly say.

46:29 Oh, yeah.

46:32 I would definitely say ever since I was, I came to Uva and I've been in an environment that's not as censored and also just an environment where students, where there's so many different types of people, both like students and faculty that come from different walks of life and have research in various fields, has very much prompted my interest in politics. And then also seeing like being older and like reflecting on it or being more aware of how certain things have affected the people that I love, it has very much been at the forefront of what I pay attention to as a voter. And so I very much agree with you in that sense that I think both through my lived experiences with my nephew and working or shadowing, I should say special education classrooms plus my curriculum, which I otherwise would not be an informed. I wouldn't a be comfortable talking about politics because it's, it's tricky. Like, you don't want to offend people, but you also want to learn.

47:42 Yeah.

47:44 With, without the structure that I have in school and also like the safety that I have by my professor who provides the space to have this. These conversations, I would be very hesitant to talk about it too. I mean, one of my friends always says the two things he never talks about are religion and politics and money.

48:03 Yeah, that's right. Yeah.

48:06 Politics are important. I think it's a privilege to not have to worry about politics, not to care about politics.

48:17 Not in a country where you have to. You get killed if you talk too much about politics.

48:23 So that's a thing, thankfully. But on the other hand, education isn't a allowing students to feel comfortable having these conversations and actually like, bashes students for having different worldviews. So I guess, like, to answer your question, very much so that my experiences have been a huge contributor to my political involvement now. And I am. I am grateful. But without it, if I went to a different school or maybe if I didn't choose to do my global education minor, I wouldn't be having these conversations. I wouldn't have the practice to have them, which, I mean, that's all it is. Just like any other skill. It takes practice.

49:14 Yeah, exactly. Takes practice. That's true.

49:19 Yeah. And it's, I mean, again, it's tricky. Um, but it's in a lot of ways it's necessary, especially as someone who's thinking about being a policymaker, to understand the perspectives and the experiences of the people that the policy doesn't benefit versus the ones that it does.

49:40 That makes sense. Yeah, it's. Politics is always awkward to bring up. You're always afraid you'll offend somebody, even if you don't mean to. So.

49:55 It'S like, experiences specifically that have turned you off from these conversations.

50:02 Well, it's just, I just don't like it when you go turn on the news and instead of tell talking about the issues, it's just some guy screaming, you hate our country, blah, blah, blah. And then there's this quiet guy that's like, I don't hate the country. And it's just like, why does anyone listen to this? It's just somebody yelling for 45 minutes. This is painful. I mean, of course, there's a lot of. Somebody's watching them.

50:35 Yeah, I'll definitely agree that our public figures don't necessarily model what good I. Political dialogue and deliberations. They're just painful, which is a huge turn off to having the conversations. And it is very unfortunate because, I mean, the one thing I will say is, just as much as I leave a lot of my classes, like, very angry with the system more than any, but I also leave hopeful because I feel like with this new understanding and with these conversations, there's more room for effective solutions.