Kate Keisel and Cristal Mills

Recorded June 10, 2021 Archived June 8, 2021 47:13 minutes
0:00 / 0:00
Id: ddv000860


Kate Keisel (35) has a conversation with her colleague Cristal Mills (38) about their work, their friendship, and the importance of resilience.

Subject Log / Time Code

CM talks about how they first meet as colleagues in Newark. KK shares dreams of what she would do growing up and how she incorporates earlier childhood passion of working with animals. She talks about animal-assisted therapy and its impact.
CM shares a funny story during their time working together.
CM shares what led to her work in victim services. KK shares early experiences that influence her work in the anti-trafficking field.
KK shares international work in Peru and Mexico, learning Spanish. She gives her thoughts on resilience and sad aspects within the field and would encourage those working in the field to have more compassion.
KK shares what inspires her resilience and mentors who have helped her to achieve personal goals.
KK shares accomplishments in anti-trafficking work. She gives a message to those who would want to be involved in the field and shares her biggest hope for the field.


  • Kate Keisel
  • Cristal Mills

Recording Location

Virtual Recording


Partnership Type

Fee for Service


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00:00 Age. 38 years old. I am recording in. Los Angeles, California. Today's date, is June 10th, 2021. I will be speaking to cake heysel today. And our relationship is ex-colleague and very dear friend.

00:17 And my name is Kate Keisel. I'm 35 years old. I'm recording in New York. Today's date is June 10th, 2021 and I'll be speaking to Crystal, one of my dearest friends and one of my most respected colleagues in in the field.

00:42 Kate, how are you doing? Kitties, Amiga? I'm super.

00:51 So, you know, we've had a very, very close friendship that's been wet 12 years now.

01:00 And you were, I mean, we're good friends. We work together and every time I feel like I know you were in my wedding, right? My informal wedding coordinator somehow last minute.

01:18 But I feel like every time we do cuz we work before, I feel like as soon as we talked about work stuff. We get very serious and super formal. It's it's funny how we can kind of change that have really quickly between the two. And so, I'm really excited to do this today because I get to ask you a few questions and also because I really miss you. I feel like we don't get to talk as often as we would like to hear busy. I'm busy. We have a lot going on. So anytime we have any kind of work-related project or something, you know, both professional or personal that we can do and it gets ketchup. It's always so great. And I'm very excited to, to talk to you today. Me to me too and I'm super grateful that you're my, My Talking partner. It's, it's an honor to get to talk with you and to just memorialized the time that we've spent and grown in life together and look at all of those pieces. So, I'm just really grateful for this opportunity to be here with you.

02:18 Likewise now, you know, it's been 12 years. Do you remember the first time we met? She will never forget. The first time we met we were in Newark our former colleague. Chris was driving the work car and it was like freezing outside and you got in the back seat of the car. We have never met before. I just started working at the office like sort of said hi to me and I was like, oh my God, I was so intimidated. I was like, I just got to Newark. I've never been here and then from there.

03:18 You know, it turned into this beautiful relationship, but I can still see you like on the corner of Halsey in Newark. I know I wasn't very friendly. The first time we met. I don't know why. I think I was just like, when does new girl. Yeah. I remember that it was. I think it was it was just like a crappy weather. And yeah, I wasn't very friendly cuz I think everything just happened. So fast, right there was a new employee and it has been a long time and I doing Outreach, but it was great that you came on board because

03:59 We needed our program to develop much more and I mean you are fabulous at at the work itself. So and then, yeah, and then we became like BFFs shortly after that. I think I'm with immediately. And yeah, I remember how I had just I literally had dropped driven out from DC and was new to the area and and I think one of the like the services to how we met, was no whenever there's like, a new employer and his staff and it seemed like you and Chris didn't get to be a part of like deciding who came on and that's as far as we want to be a part of that process. And I think that was something that we had to build in, which is like, all right, who are you? What are, what are our stories? And then those being like, you know, neither of us are from New York-New Jersey area with what is it? Like you were such a support then? I just remember that happening so quickly.

04:59 Just kind of like happened and we pick you up and we were going to a meeting, right? Shortly after that. It was a psycho. Go-Go. There's no transition. There's no like hey, let's set up a meeting to introduce a new team member or anyting. But we have a lot of interesting stories working in the rough streets. Send my rough streets of Newark, New Jersey in the tri-state area. Really New York-New Jersey area.

05:23 Now going back a little bit and I don't think I've ever asked you this in the twelve years. I've known you as a child that you have any specific dreams about like when you were going to become a Jew when you grew up.

05:39 That's a really good question. As you know, I I love animals and I think I had always anticipated or saw or dreamed that I was going to do something like zoology or, you know, go into that that has and you know, my own experiences and my own change that trajectory for me. And I always look back and think about

06:09 Had I not gone through some of the things I went through in my adolescence, and in my early adulthood that I probably wouldn't have been on this past. But I'm grateful for those experiences in the sense that they didn't shift. I didn't I didn't go into zoology. I didn't get to do those things that I had initially thought would be my my past but I've been able to integrate that still into my work. So I I do think a lot faster, you know, what led to this road and what what could have been other Pathways if life events have been different.

06:46 Now, I know you mentioned that you were able to incorporate some of the, the initial passions you had at the child into your current work. Can you tell me a little bit about what is it that you're doing incorporate? That still? Do. You know, when I was fortunate enough to to co-found the Sun out Institute and an entity that was Focus completely on healing trauma and Trauma or individuals who've experienced human trafficking, but really any form of interpersonal, violence. One of the things that was important to me was looking at, you know, evidence-based modalities, but also looking at holistic, healing. And I think one of the things that has been the most meeting. Melissa, sister therapy, and I remember when you, and I would have Rhea insouciant in the office and you know, the individuals that would come in just had a whole different way of interacting.

07:46 An engaging when they were animals present at the office and feeling comfortable and ceiling at home. And it wasn't a feeling of idea of what it means to come into the service provider. Person-centered. But it was more about it with a multi-storey movies. Has all these really surprising people have to face in the aftermath of trauma. And I think that's something that's stuck with me. Is the power of, you know, what animal is this to therapy or just having those those living beings and creatures in, areas in the spaces? How much impact and you stay with me? Now? I mean, I think about with are living now. So going on this trajectory of having, you know, a new two, new animal babies, that are

08:46 In training for as therapy animals, that allows me to State. My newest addition is our, our baby Yasmine. Who is at 12 week old? German Shepherd puppy, who is going to be at school tonight. So she'll be going to do a search and rescue and also animal assisted therapy training and she is a lot of energy and I'm learning a lot about what it what it really looks like to raise of being with loved and also the training inconsistency that takes and she's also growing up with with Raya, you know, very very well as long as you've known me. You've known Rhea will be 14 this year who is who I feel like has been so many trainings and conferences.

09:46 Places. And then of course, the fabulous Beyonce are Silkie chicken, who is just affectionate and loving. And I think so much of her oath of how she is capable and, and has the the other demeanor and the affect to release it for a long periods of time in the therapeutic way. So I'm really excited for when they will be ready to go into the office and and become apart of the work. So, yeah, I feel like our dogs have been Advocates since we've been doing this part too, because you helped me get so itchy in my Maltese is now 10 years old, or 9 years old about, to be 10 years old. And do you remember when we try to sneak the dogs into the hotel in Washington DC and I am someone that's kind of by the book. They get scared to break the law in any way or policy here. Like just put them in as I just put her in your back. I had a big bag tote bag and I try to sneak her in there and then her little

10:46 Tell with picking on the guy from the hotel saw it and I was like, oh my God in your life.

10:54 Push me to do things that I was like, it's just not comfortable specially with the dog. Like, you know, and they are Porter. And I was near the dogs back then and I was like just put her in the back. I remember when he asked you is that a dog? And you were like, no. And then I looked down and I was like, okay. I'm just going to walk out now like the 10-year anniversary, gala of it and like it an hour child care in the next like 30 minutes to make it to the gala and like we had someone with a to take her in for the next few hours, right? This last minute.

11:46 More like we have an emergency. You have a lot of really funny stories. I feel like the adventures from where we used to work together. We can do a whole podcast on that in his cell.

12:02 And now I know you mentioned earlier. I think it was one of the questions. I asked you about your dreams and what you wanted to become and you said there was some personal experiences that you went through that change that projector e

12:17 And if you feel comfortable sharing a little bit about those personal experiences that changes I feel like that happens to a lot of people, you know, one thing leads to another that leads to another and then you find yourself in this new pathway. I remember for me. I took a criminology course. I wanted to be a police officer and then I took a couple of victim services classes and immediately. I was like, oh, I need you to let you know, I still work within the criminal justice field, but more leaning towards victim Services, because of those courses I took in because of a lot of things that I've experienced, my mom experience that I saw in my community. What were some of those personal experiences that you you kind of hinted at earlier that influenced the work that you do now about a sensationalize, right? So experiences of sexual violence, and intimate, partner violence, and those different aspects that we're all part of of my history. And those

13:17 At least shapes those. And I think also growing up with individuals who are my, my closest friends that also had those same experiences of ongoing sexual violence, an ongoing intimate partner violence. I think the realization in the long-term was, you know, this is not something that's isolated. This is something that is prevalent and everywhere, and happening to everyone that I love and care about. And I think, you know, when I went through different experiences of traumatic events, released throughout adolescence and early. Adulthood, what is a major trauma that I went through in the aftermath of that. I was I was a different person and it changed something fundamentally and me and how I saw the world and how I was able to relate to other people. And and I think that changed my

14:17 Completely. I mean, you know, I think about when I was an undergrad and what I thought things were going to look like and I did, you know, is you know much of my undergraduate degree in in Latin America, both in Mexico and Peru, and I think I had such a fundamental.

14:36 Processing time of trying to work through that trauma while also going through and trying to finish agitation and you know, then processing earlier traumas and then you realize they're all connected and and I think it took me a really long time to place. Understand. How am I live experience?

14:57 Was going to have meeting that was more than than just pain or more than just this connection. And I think, you know, kind of time that to to the present. One of the things that I ate was really fortunate, was to have access to really, really good. And supportive are at a certain point in time. And I remember my life before I was able to access things like a movement, desensitization and reprocessing EMDR therapy. And some of these other things that now I'm able to offer as a practitioner in as a trauma therapist, but I had to had to do my own work first. And that work is long term. It's it's it's really over but I am so Focus now at this point in my life and and this trajectory and what force traumatic Rose looks like and what resiliency looks

15:57 NM believer that you know, really what we think about in post-traumatic growth is we become older people, more, empathic people, more self-aware, we're able to do that work and heal from that trauma. So that trauma actually becomes a guidepost that allows us to be more human. And that doesn't mean that we wish for traumatic events. So that doesn't mean that we excuse them, but that we also can take our own personal accountability and say no one is going to heal me by myself in this process. And I think that's something for me when I look at all of the different things that I went through. And I experienced it in form of things today. Eventbrite, not in the sense of I try to really be objective about my own experiences versus, you know, what? I work with individuals that healing from trauma, is not.

16:57 I don't know as field how to get to but that it has everything to do with who has access resources and power. And that's unacceptable or mean that those experiences have to have led my passion to what it means to have access to Quality appropriate. Healing services that don't pathologize, right? It's not something that's wrong with us. It's an experience that we have that we overcome. By the way. That was a really long-winded answer. It's kind of like tile of those together who I am today, you know, it's informed by all of those experiences there. A part of me. I don't disown them. I give them place and space, but they also are just one one tiny piece of the pie. I feel like there's so many different parts of me that I've been fortunate to develop that were only possible in in the healing process, and I think that that

17:57 To be a human, right? For every single person who experiences trauma, which is just one of the most prevalent things that we will experience as if he went. Absolutely. And I love that you did a lot of work internationally to in federal and Mexico witches. Am assuming how you learn to speak, Spanish fluently. I didn't speak Spanish at all. I think I had taken one point, but you don't have any other choice, right? When you're living in, at the time. I was looking at the hotel be there for that for that year and then by the time I move to Mexico my Spanish was better. And then I started to really understand like differences even just ocab you Larry and some of the nuances and then it just became a part of sort of, you know having

18:55 Having sort of a place in my brain where I switched over from from English to Spanish pretty pretty fluid lead over time. I love that. I really do think that's one of the ways that we connected. I was like, okay? She speak Spanish. I like you.

19:16 And now I know you talked a lot about your trauma in your personal experiences. And the reason why you're so passionate about ensuring that everyone has access to the correct and appropriate, Trauma, Center therapy counseling, and all this services for gender-based violence victims.

19:38 And one of the words that always gets thrown out there in the field in the work that we do is resilience.

19:45 How would you define resilience?

19:48 It's so funny. I'm I'm working on this curriculum right now on on trauma, specifically relating to human trafficking. And one of the parts of it is a defining definitions of the course. There's like the textbook definition, which is the ability to bounce back after adversity. But to me, I feel like there are so many other elements to that. I've seen resilience every single day that I get to come to work. And the way that I see it is the ability to sit with the pain and still move forward. So he still learning and self-awareness aspect in addition to a growth prospects. And I think resilience to me means it means that fluidity of moving forward of not getting stuck because I think it's so easy for us to get stuff in the heart Parts in the hard part. And, and

20:48 Justifiably cell, but I think resilience hold us accountable to actively participate in our healing. And when we see that when we have that lightbulb moment, I feel like that's when the resilience and individuals comes out, is this this strength that is deeply rooted in the authentic self. I feel one of the things that I am most honored and grateful is to witness resilience every single day. I think people talk about, you know, you work with trauma and at the end of the day I work with resilience. I work with individuals who are able to get up overcome and continue working on a thousand things in life that are outstanding and those traumas are so diverse, but that ability to to come back to the table to be brave again, to be courageous again, and I'll be in a relationship again, trust again.

21:48 Those things I think are such a key part of what resilience looks like. And I also truly truly believe their resilience is compassion, not just for ourselves, but for others, because I tied, one of the things that I see in that, that saddens me in the field is a lack of compassion and and person-centeredness. And I think that's part of resilience that we all can happen to a little bit more, which is even when we think about working with colleagues or other professional, sometimes we don't give the same respect that we would give to someone who's perceived to be quiet and yet when we think about that, we don't know people stories. We're never going to know people stored. And we should never be required to self disclosure without resilience, which is being able to shop with compassion. I think we don't have that.

22:42 We can or missing a little piece of it. And that usually is it because we have a part of us or a piece of us that still hurt. Yeah, or or burned out or other things that I think it's also important to to address in the work that we do. We're going back to. If you were going through the different definitions of resiliency. What are your sources of resilience? I know you mentioned being able to see it on a day-to-day basis with the clients? Why you were

23:14 Exiting a question Crystal and I feel like I don't want to be like, who I want to, be really honest. I feel like, I feel like time with my partner who is the absolute love of my life, who has show me a different way of living and and shit did my perception of of what it means to not just the all-in with work where I am still there and very present. And and I think I do better work now that I don't work inappropriately so hard, right where I'm not overworking and using that as a form of not being present in my life and it has a huge form of and source of what grounds me. I think time in nature and now, living in a place where I get to see animals and life and people who are living in different ways. I think travel has been a huge part of that as well of seeing.

24:14 Lots of different communities in West ceiling looks like and what resiliency looks like. They're, I've been so honored with the work that we do in Southern India and working with communities. I feel like all of those are sources but at the end of the day, I think it's also making sure I feel like I'm being true to my values. And myself are windows are aligned. I feel my most resilient. I feel my most true. I feel my most true version of myself, then it got the essence that I see. Also, the people that I work with is building the authenticity and that comforter setting boundaries of saying, you know, this doesn't feel okay to me or this is something that made me uncomfortable or even having that boys, having that choice in all things in life. I think for me is a source of resiliency and I learned from the people around you all the time.

25:13 Is this like, how are you able to process this for? How are you able to not let this get to you or let this go? And so I think that's another tribe of women that are my Crocs. And I couldn't do life without you and the women in my life. I feel the same way. I really do whatever have an issue. Unlike Kate. Please be my informal therapist as well as my informal wedding coordinator.

25:49 DJ thought I was a hired wedding coordinator and was like getting frustrated with me and I was like, I'm not a coordinator. Should I just I just made you one the day of the wedding or the day before the wedding, right?

26:14 I know it was so funny. He gave you attitude, but then he like, realized she was just helping out.

26:25 Sorry says I'll go to Uncle West Krystle Forte. That was so funny. Trying to like pay the the Flores. This is all the Mexico. Thank God, you know, cuz you you spell Spanish. You're going to pay that mariachi band and you're going to play. This is the money straight with me cuz you said 15 minutes for like an hour now. And my girl is about to arrive and I know if you're not here, that's that's not going to work.

27:00 That was hilarious. There's so much that happened that day.

27:06 No.

27:07 And we talked a little bit about what you dreamed of becoming that your personal experiences and resilience leading up to currently, you know, the kind of work that you do, resiliency of the victims, you work with the survivors, you work with it. Also your own personal resilience, and how with what those horses are like for you.

27:30 Has anyone in your life? Been kind of the mentor or someone like a role model that you looked up to that help you get to where you are. Now, I feel like, my my grandmother who passed away a few years ago was, was one of those people that I looked who even now. And I think, like, what would Betty do? She was the artist and completely unapologetically herself all the time and energy, word me, no matter what I did, no matter what I went through, no matter the challenges. She was just that person who thought I was just amazed music, right? It was like if I took a picture, if you would be like you are at Agra fur.

28:27 Has any Merit to what or truth to it? She believed it and I think to have someone that sees you that way and I loves you that way, it's just an old but also to see how she navigated her life all the way to the very end when she passed away and the humor that she brought and confidence that she brought. And she always believed no matter what I could accomplish anything that I wanted to, no matter what had happened, no matter what, you know, what challenges were they are unconditionally as a half. That's why your spirit that she had with someone, you know, who was a Trailblazer. You know, she got a divorce in a time when you don't get divorced right away. When she was very young in her early 20s after being married for, I think six months and then went on to meet my grandpa.

29:27 Learn how to hold of her life. She was born in Chicago and had a job offer in in Los Angeles and her boss asked her to Bryce's convertible for his wife and was like do you want to do it? And she said yes and you know, her co-workers. Like you don't know how to drive, you know, and so I guess like nothing is going to stop me from doing these things that you probably wasn't something that was easy or if she just someone I frequently look at and living a full life and what does it mean to be a person who is loving and yet also boundary and strong for yourself? The combination, the balance of

30:25 Now is there anybody else that maybe helped you cuz you've done a lot since I've known you. You've grown so much professionally personally, but was there anybody else in your life that help you emotionally or maybe financially or academically to do in any sense of the word to achieve your dreams?

30:44 I think my mom has been always there. She's a phenomenal woman and has been one of those people, as well. I know, no matter what she will, she will be there for me. I think that's that's a huge gift and I realize more and more to get that. Not, everyone has. And I cherish that and I cherish her and I also really believe that, you know, Mike, Mike or friendships have have been that as well. You have been that you have been like a phenomenal supports me in so many different really difficult moments in the last 20 years that I don't know how I would have made it through without your support, without your your guidance, without your love towards me, even in moments when I was in perfect, even in moments, when I would have liked to have been a different version of myself, even when I didn't know,

31:44 Life is going to break you, you were that person, my wife's sister. My sister who I am the Godmother of her two sons has been in my life since we were children and we we voice text or communicate everyday and that these people that, you know, will be there in your life until until yet. So I think those are our huge pieces of of that. I also think that I've had really good, fortune of having individuals. Professional been there to give me guidance and support and mentorship that I am so grateful for our clinical. Supervisor is who who really helped me to become the therapist that I am today, who I am so grateful for and and have that relationship with him. Like I do.

32:43 Who you are and you know who you are. And I think those are all all pieces of people who believed in me along the way and who showed me that I could accomplish things, but didn't necessarily look like what it doesn't. Every package. It's, you know, I don't come from having an Ivy League education, but I do have and have pursued, my academic old was able to go to different things, and people telling me that I had skills and tools and abilities to show up and has fostered and nurtured though. So I do think we become the people. We are by the people were surrounded with, as well. And, and who, and what they show us. I also think it just can't go without saying, the people that I have walked side-by-side on their journey of healing, have been my biggest source of learning. Also. I am humbled and honored by the stories that I have bared. Witness.

33:43 Over many, many, many years and every single day, every time that I do a session or that I am engaging with someone. I'm very conscious that it is an honor to have someone trust. I'll share their story with you, and I take that with the utmost.

34:05 Ethical guidance and also just humanity and hard at something an uncompromising with is the people that I work with. Who trust me? You trust the organization that they're coming to and I think those are the people that I also learned from and seeing my gosh, like the extent to which people are able to not just overcome, but are such a amazing. Humans is so inspiring and also it it makes me grow as a person. Write it challenges me to say, reflect, and on yourself in. Are you doing these things?

34:40 Yeah, absolutely. I think you get so much from the people that you work with and survivors. And I'm just like how did you go through all that? And yet you smiling you're so happy and you know, you would never know that these people have suffered so much and or have gone through so much in my life, so I completely understand that.

35:03 Now I'm kind of going a little bit moving, a little bit forward on the same topic along the same topic. What would you say is what lasting change? Would you say you have made in your community that you are the most proud of or in the anti-trafficking trafficking field, that you are the most proud of?

35:21 I think, I think it's a complicated piece for me. I think, what, what I'm most proud of in the work that I'm doing today, and that I've been able to do with synara is not compromising on.

35:40 What it means to change the dialogue around trauma and to take away the sensationalized storytelling. An exploitation of traumatic events that individuals move through and change that to a narrative around resilience and growth to re-center the conversation around being human. And to look at Trauma from Allen's of something that's Universal right than on other earring of individuals who've experienced trafficking. I'm seeing it as something to observe and think of his other people. But instead looking out to the trauma and a traumatic event that an individual has gone through and this does not mean that is her. We can all use our own lived experiences and say are are traumatic expenses are. And I think that's the piece in the field that I hope to always.

36:40 How much is giving tools and skills to move the conversation, beyond the court of trauma-informed, work and really stay like do we understand, and do? We understand how we can often times with good intentions? Disempower? The very individuals that were trying to work with and continue to have the same Solutions over and over again that are put out there whether that's through funding sources or through the types of programs that are continuing to thrive that are, are not going to an impact Focus area where we measure trauma. We know what kind of modalities were using. We create a holistic person-centered environment with people that tell stories, we are respectful of power Dynamic. I'm, I'm proud of that work. I'm proud of the team that does that work every single day, snri feel proud.

37:40 They are represented in the community and I really am inspired by that continuing to grow and Shifting The Narrative away from so many misconceptions that there are with trafficking and the imbalance and lack of focus on the impact of Labor trafficking and things of that nature. I think those are some of the pieces that I really feel passionate about continuing and also feel like there has been some movement, but there's there's a lot of work to still do to get to that place.

38:13 What kind of message would you give a younger version of k or a younger version of Crystal, you know, future Advocates, don't want to join in the end of movement. Maybe there are 19, 20 years old and they're starting to get interested in it. What would you tell them?

38:30 About at work.

38:37 Human trafficking and working with individuals and communities that have been impacted by human trafficking is working with people. And you need to be passionate about working with people, all kinds of people, and people that are just humans like ourselves. So if you're coming to this work because it's having a lot of exposure or it, seems so horrific that you have to do something about it. Move away from that sensationalize conversation right away from that idea, that this is other ignore. That it looks a certain way. Educate yourself about what trafficking looks like and those missing parts of the story and we are just starting to talk about the impact in the communities, all of these different pieces, and we need to have full narratives. We have to stop having an academic monopolize narrative, all this work and how lived

39:37 Experience and expertise narrative, writing that story. And make sure that we come into this work for the right reasons. I think that's the piece of. It's not about us. It's not about her. Ego is not about, thank you for your service. It's you're doing such great work because you would work in the anti-trafficking. Feel we should be here because we care about people and we have ourselves in this work. And that's my opinion. I think you made it very clear that some times and we've seen this in the work that we've done before, they would always ask his, bring a, Survivor to come and speak at this conference. We want to see a Survivor come and speak, but you can see their intention wasn't truly to make a difference and understand the topic. It was like, I want to see a trafficking Survivor. What do they look like? And I want to hear their story and you know, it was a sex. Okay? Yeah. We want to sex trafficking Survivor when we don't care too much about Labor.

40:37 Shocking stories and then finding solutions to ensure that these victims are getting the right services. So I completely understand and it's it was very frustrating, right? And us as Advocate trying to protect survivors yet, also educate the community on the topic. So I do agree with you that sometimes that gets lost in in the work for some folks, not all. So I appreciate that you're speaking about that, and I hope that we have a lot more Advocates, that feel the same way and are fully aware that

41:13 And if not, I'm sure will let them know or let him know. We change that narrative away from why are we asking certain questions? Why are we focusing on certain details? Why are we looking at individuals who had this lived experience only asking about this one lived experience. When we asked someone to come speak and talk about their lives. We don't want them. And those things talk about their lives are being requested to talk about it. Very certain part of their lives that someone with my old lived experience. I can think of nothing more offensive than being reduced down to a product of that, right? And not being seen as anything, but importance of lived experience guidance, but there's also a balance and that and we, as a society have to ask questions about what is the purpose and why are we asked,

42:13 These questions and and West missing from the story, what's missing from the narrative and what are harmful misconceptions that just continue to do harm or individuals, especially in the future. Right? When you've been told and only asked about one part of you, how do you develop other parts of yourself that the important people asking about them or interested in that? We have an opportunity to view. People ask for people on a more.

42:48 On a less serious. No because you know me I think for me my my source of resilience comes back to sense of humor and laughing because I have to that's the way I keep myself sane. Can you remember? I don't know if you have a specific funny moment or story that you can remember about the work that you do either of us working together or just and we shared a couple of funny moments at the beginning, but you have a particular when it stands out. That was the funniest moment you've experienced while maybe working.

43:23 I feel like you and I have so many funny Easter. I my cycling through funny stories, but I think one that just shows, like, what life looks like is I feel like, it's always, like winter in Newark, when I feel funny stories with you. And I, but I remember us leaving the office after a super long day. And I think we had a couple on a leash and she started running running after her and then you slip on the eyes and I'm running after I would like this on the street of New York and like everything we was just like a paled in comparison to the laughing. And I think that's the part of it. So my humor and laughing and also being like almost died. Okay, we're fine jump on her cuz she was about to go to the main after hours, like everybody was

44:23 Driving to pick up traffic. Oh my God, and I met you on my lunch bag and shut it down. Always used to fall in the ice in Newark. Right? Like I feel like we're just cold and uncomfortable to accident by changing tires, on her work car. And, you know, I don't even know how to change the tires. Somehow we learned on the job, many times many time. So, that would be another one as I think you and I, and the snowing in Brooklyn. Both of us on the arse of the tire life.

45:16 Where to get it till I go around. And finally, someone came over and was like funny moments. Now, I think we're running out of time. If we see if we still have time, I would like to just ask you if there's anything, any message that you want to.

45:41 Tell the anti-trafficking field or any other Advocate. I know you shared a lot of a sort of the sinful sinful eyes and sense of I can't even say the word sensationalizing trafficking the stories and things like that. But is there anything else? Any other message that you want to share with anti-trafficking field be kind? Be kind to everyone that you work with everyone that you interact with, be compassionate, strived to be the best versions of ourselves. Even when we may not agree on issues, at the end of the day, we can all be kind. And I think that would be the biggest message that I have everyday is just, let's all be kind compassionate and gentle one, another, no matter what kind of work we do. What history is might be there. What goals May align or may not aligned. We can all disagree have different opinions and do so with kindness and treat one another with human dignity care.

46:41 Amen. What? Thank you Kate. This has been lovely. It's so fun to talk to you all the time. We always laughed and at the same time talk about really serious things. I love that balance. Thank you Crystal. I love you dearly, and I'm just so grateful that you're in my life and thank you for spending your morning with me. I'm so grateful for you. Thank you, likewise.