Katelyn Jurney and Renee' Sites-Erwin

[00:03] KATELYN JOURNEY: Hello. My name is Katelyn Journey. I'm 30 years old, and it is Sunday, March 20, 2022. I am at the Greenwood Cultural center in Tulsa, Oklahoma. My interview partner is Renee' Sites-Erwin We are friends and colleagues, and hello.

[00:28] RENEE' SITES-ERWIN: I'm Renee' Sites-Erwin and I'm 48. Today's date is Sunday, March 20, 2022, and I am at the Greenwood Cultural center in Tulsa, Oklahoma. And my interview partner is Katelyn Journey, and we are friends and colleagues. Also, I wanted to go ahead and add before we get started that Katelyn and I are both deaf, and today with us we have two interpreters, and the voices you hear today are my interpreter, and the other voice you hear is Caitlin's interpreter. So we'll go ahead. So, Katelyn can you describe the work that you do?

[01:21] KATELYN JOURNEY: Yes. I work for a domestic violence agency and I am the project coordinator under a federal grant with the Office of Violence against Women. We focus on improving access and resources for deaf survivors who have experienced domestic violence or sexual violence. My background is social work, and I am a licensed master social worker. And what do you do?

[01:49] RENEE' SITES-ERWIN: I'm an advocate for deaf individuals around the state of Oklahoma, and we do a variety of things from education to help break down barriers that those individuals face. We also help with paperwork, providing true and understandable information, help them get employment and different types of things, offering support. I work with an organization, with organizations and schools to help them better serve their own deaf and hard of hearing clients, and we provide workshops to the community on a variety of topics to increase their accessibility to information, and I educate about deaf culture. We have workshops, presentations to schools and agencies to help them have a better understanding and awareness of their need to provide interpreters. Now, I'm curious if you could tell me, Katelyn about some of the challenges that you've experienced and faced in your life as they relate to the work you do today.

[02:55] KATELYN JOURNEY: Well, I was born deaf, and I grew up with a lot of different experiences and barriers that I had to overcome discrimination rather than people accommodating me. It does seem like I have to accommodate the people around me in various ways. I have to use my voice or I have to lip read, and I really prefer not to have to do either one of those lip reading. I probably catch about 60%, and the rest of the conversation I miss. So it's a lot like playing mad libs. I kind of have to fill in the gaps. What I miss, what I think they might be saying, always seems to be a guessing game. One time I applied for a job and I was called for an interview, so it happened. It was the day of the interview, I received a phone call from them that they wanted to cancel the interview because they learned that I was deaf, and they didn't, I guess, didn't want to hire me because of that. So, yeah, I mean, it really. It doesn't even matter that there's a technological advances. There's still a lot of, you know, barriers that we experience today. And that's really how I became motivated to have equitable access and equal opportunities for everyone, especially deaf people.

[04:11] RENEE' SITES-ERWIN: Wow.

[04:13] KATELYN JOURNEY: So what about you? Your life experience is a lot different than mine. I know. And so tell me about what are some challenges that you've experienced.

[04:24] RENEE' SITES-ERWIN: I've had some very similar experiences. I was born hearing and then became hard of hearing, and it was a slow progression of my hearing loss throughout my life. But I'm really impressed that you can read 60% with lip reading. I'm lucky if I get 2020 5% of what I see with lip reading. I know that every individual, we all have a variety of lip reading skills, and I'm not a good lip reader. So one of the challenges that I face is just the understanding of what's going on around me in casual social environments, as well as when I go to the doctor or I'm in a legal setting, if I don't have an interpreter, then I can't really participate and fully enjoy the experience of where I am. Also wanted to add that I work for TSHA, which, as the deaf services manager. And in the past, when my son was six, he experienced severe stomach pain, and I took him to the emergency room where my doctor or a doctor was in that area, but they refused to provide an interpreter. And what they did was they pulled in a high school student taking sign language to try to, quote, interpret for us. And I had no idea what was going on, not fully able to show my concern, and I couldn't really connect with the doctor. So they finally sent us home and said, oh, it's not a big deal. Well, as the evening went on, finally about 10:00 I took him to a different hospital out of town, and that hospital understood, and they tended to provide interpreters. When I got there, sure enough, an interpreter arrived, and we found out he needed his appendix removed. They had surgery the next morning. Medical challenges without an interpreter, I mean, he might not have survived. Who knows? And where I work today, I work so hard to advocate for individuals out there, whatever kind of appointment they might have, so that they can understand fully and have full access to their own information. It impacts their life. And when they go to other places, not just the doctor's office, but that they're satisfied that their client or patient relationship is full and complete.

[06:46] KATELYN JOURNEY: Yeah, I agree with that. It's extremely important.

[06:53] RENEE' SITES-ERWIN: Well, I'm wondering now what are some challenges that deaf and hard of hearing people face when they come into public services?

[07:04] KATELYN JOURNEY: So the deaf community, I think one of the large, they are one of the largest overlooked and underserved, almost invisible communities out there. The biggest challenges that I really see often are language barrier and cultural barriers. There are a lot of agencies out there that just refuse to provide interpreters. They expect that we are going to bring our own interpreter with us, or they expect us to accommodate using their, what they quote, adequate accommodations, which could be lip reading or writing back and forth. And again, I say, you know, quote unquote adequate accommodations because, as you just mentioned, Renee' you said you catch maybe 20% to 30% of lip reading. I probably catch 60. And so, really, lip reading skills vary with different people. The general average reading level for the deaf community is third or fourth grade reading level. And the reason why is because English is their second language, and so for us to accommodate your language rather than hearing people accommodate ours, I don't know. And then with cultural barriers. Hmm. Well, when a service provider like, they don't understand deaf culture, our unique needs that we might have, like, for example, with mask mandates, that is a huge challenge today because facial expressions and body language are a large part of the language. And so with a mask that's hidden, we miss a large part of the language. When that happens, we have misunderstanding. Maybe there's an important part that we miss out on with the mask mandates. So that has definitely been a challenge in the last couple years. Another example, maybe a deaf person is pulled from an abusive environment. Right. And they end up experiencing all kinds of barriers. So let's say they do get put into a safe place, like a shelter, but there's no one there who signs, and there's no one there who they can communicate with. So that's a huge barrier just to kind of feel isolated and lonely. And I like, not sure what's happening or what's going on, and so they would just rather be back in an abusive environment than to stay in something like that. The stats are it takes about seven times before a deaf person actually leaves their abuser.

[09:24] RENEE' SITES-ERWIN: Wow. That is something that we want to get out there. We want to get education out in public places that it's so important to provide interpreters just to become fully inclusive and accessible to everyone. Still, those challenges are out there, and we face them each day. So, for me.

[09:49] KATELYN JOURNEY: Yeah. What are some of the challenges that you and deaf hard of hearing people face out there with public service?

[09:57] RENEE' SITES-ERWIN: The things you mentioned, of course, interpreters, we have to educate constantly. We're lucky if we succeed in getting an interpreter for appointments, for our own appointments, especially often. People just don't want to dish out the money, the cost for the interpreter. They expect that that's going to fall back on us. But what people don't understand is that deaf individuals are a protected class under the Americans with Disabilities act, and that specifies that public places need to be accessible. They bear the responsibility to provide that interpreter. So today, that's something I advocate for every day now, something that I myself have experienced where I've needed an interpreter. I'm an expert in this field now. I go out and I educate about the Americans with Disabilities act and the need for interpreters, and I still find that when I'm asking for myself, I get refusal. I have to ask someone in my own office to go and advocate for me under the agency name, because the agency name carries more weight than me as an individual. So that just shows that people who are not in a professional place like I am are going to face those same frustrations and challenges whether we work for an agency or not.

[11:17] KATELYN JOURNEY: Oh, yeah. I remember one time I went to a doctor's appointment, and they refused to provide an interpreter. And so I reached out to TSha. Even though I have a master's degree and I'm highly educated, and I can even speak for myself when I need to, I'm great with English still. I wanted an interpreter. You know, I want 100% communication. So I had to contact TSha and have them help me with advocating to get an interpreter as well. And you faxed over an ADA list with the law, and they were kind of like, oh, okay, yeah, we're going to provide, then. They didn't want to break the law. They didn't want to be sued. And so, I mean, it came down to that. So thank you, Tsha, for doing that. Thank you, Renee'

[11:57] RENEE' SITES-ERWIN: You're right, though. It doesn't matter how many degrees we have, bachelor's degree from college, whatever, we still struggle. We still have the same struggles as other deaf people every day. So I'm curious now, why is it important for you, Katelyn to face those barriers?

[12:15] KATELYN JOURNEY: Well, I strongly believe that it is our basic human right to be able to access the services that we need without having to jump through hoops to get there. It should be easy. It should be able to get the help that we need, and it should come easily.

[12:29] RENEE' SITES-ERWIN: I totally agree. Not only is it our basic human right, but it's a necessity. Hearing people out there can go anywhere they want and access any place at any time. They are able to speak and listen, but we have to educate first, request an interpreter, tell them where they can contact to get an interpreter. And then we have to hope that the agency is going to have availability of an interpreter to go to that appointment that we want to have. Hearing people don't have to do any of that, and sometimes we just have to go ahead and go to that appointment or have it postponed. And it's exceedingly frustrating trying to write back and forth or trying to lip read, and the whole time we're under stress trying to understand my situation and what's going on with my own life, whether it's a hospital or whatever, it's very stressful. They obviously don't understand the communication breakdown. And then when I go back with an interpreter, I'm able to fully communicate my needs. Could you tell me more about a moment that really strengthened your commitment to make the world accessible for people?

[13:55] KATELYN JOURNEY: So I mentioned that I work for a domestic violence agency. It's domestic violence intervention services, DVis. We have served a couple of deaf survivors in the past. One time, a deaf survivor was at the shelter, and there was no interpreter. They didn't understand the staff and what they were trying to tell them. And, you know, she was extremely frustrated. She actually had a fear that the staff were telling people where she was. And, you know, obviously it's supposed to be an undisclosed location, and she wanted to leave because she was not trusting the staff at that point. And she had the right to leave. Of course she could, but the staff was trying to explain to her that the abuser was actually in the area. They didn't know exactly where, and the abuser didn't know where she was. But if she left, obviously it was her choice, but it would not be the safest option for her. But she was not understanding because, again, there was no interpreter available. And the situation just escalated. Escalated at that point. So the staff called me in and I sat down with her and just kind of explained the situation. I told her what was going on, and she realized that it was best for her to stay. So that's one of the cultural barriers that is experienced, because the historical trauma and oppression that deaf people have experienced, that is passed on, even though maybe we have not directly experienced some of those things that historical trauma is passed on to us, and so we don't trust hearing people because of it. So, I mean, that's a huge barrier. So when I came in and sat down and she realized that I was deaf as well, and realized I could communicate in her language and that we were able to just have a natural conversation, she got it. So I was able to de escalate the situation with that.

[15:52] RENEE' SITES-ERWIN: I've experienced a very similar situation, not at the domestic violence association, but there was a person who called me one time to help advocate. The person didn't want to try to communicate with the police or the emergency responders. Rather, in that situation, they didn't trust completely. So when I arrived, they were like, are you deafendenne? Oh, okay, fine, come here. I need to talk to you in private. And we went away from the first responders and that person filled me in, and there was that immediate connection as a fellow deaf person. And if I started to leave, they were like, where are you going? What are you doing? And I explained, I'm going to go over and help advocate and explain the situation, but they wanted full information. I was able to come back and give them that, and that made the situation proceed smoothly due to that historical trauma. And that experience really helped me become more motivated at working with dvis. So we lean on that agency when a domestic violence situation occurs. And without greater access to dvis, I don't think we would have been successful in helping that person. I've in the past tried to text people at dvis, see what's happening, because they're the experts with domestic violence and sexual violence. That's not my field of specialty. So that was a new area for me. And once I was able to connect with someone specific there, then I was able to feel more secure and offer that same sense of security to the client in domestic violence and sexual violence situations, to even become aware of the services of an agency like dvis. You know, how everything navigates from mail to post office, how all of that works when you're in a domestic violence situation. People would say, I got this letter and I don't know what's going on. I had to read through the whole thing to try to understand it. And they were mailing things sometimes to a state of Oklahoma address. And I was like, well, it might be related to dvis. And I reached out and many people didn't know because it's a very large agency, dvis. So finally, I was able to get ahold of one person who said, oh, I see what you need. And it just took us a while to get there. So it was a very frustrating experience to try to navigate that first time years ago. And so that's when I realized how much we needed to develop a relationship with an organization in domestic violence and sexual violence. And that really motivated me to enter into this grant and this partnership with dvis. And I'm so glad you're here, Katelyn as the project coordinator for this deaf rise collaboration between the two organizations and the person who started this when we got the grant, you know, where would we be today without this collaboration? It's allowing us to provide more and more accessibility for deaf individuals, and we really are grateful to you for that. But speaking of deaf rise, the collaboration, can you tell us more about how that collaboration got started?

[19:18] KATELYN JOURNEY: So I mentioned in the beginning, I'm the project coordinator under a federal grant, so that grant helps Divis and TShA with creating a partnership. A collaboration together. Together. Divis and Tsha have worked together in the past, but it was more on an as needed basis just to provide services to, you know, the deaf community. But with this grant, it's an official partnership. The reason why we're partnering together is because Divis, they're the expert in providing a unique perspective on domestic violence and sexual violence. They understand. They're knowledgeable about that. TShA is an expert in deaf culture, in the deaf community, in their needs and their unique needs that they might have. So partnering, we're able to share that knowledge with each other. So our goal is. Well, our commitment really is to have a better understanding of the barriers that deaf survivors experience and to just build our current resources to strengthen the approach to fix the gaps that we see and to provide better services for deaf survivors.

[20:36] RENEE' SITES-ERWIN: Yeah, I think you said it well. I have nothing really to add to that. It's been a wonderful experience, and I'm happy to look forward into the future and see where we'll go with this.

[20:49] KATELYN JOURNEY: Yes. With this collaboration, Divis and TSha both. I feel like we're both learning so much about each other. Each other. In our fields, when we partner together, things are just more. What's the word? How do I say it?

[21:12] RENEE' SITES-ERWIN: There's better outcomes.

[21:14] KATELYN JOURNEY: Yeah. Yeah. It's not about us, you know, like.

[21:18] RENEE' SITES-ERWIN: Me, and not about the two of us at all. Right?

[21:20] KATELYN JOURNEY: Right. It's about the deaf community, what services we can provide. How can we make sure that they're getting the help that they need?

[21:28] RENEE' SITES-ERWIN: The trust is being built. Yes, by deaf people on both sides. I think that collaboration has provided TSHA better resources, better access to be able to help our clients and to provide support to dvis when you need it.

[21:47] KATELYN JOURNEY: Yeah, that's right. It's been a great journey.

[21:50] RENEE' SITES-ERWIN: So what lessons do you feel this work has taught you?

[21:55] KATELYN JOURNEY: Well, definitely that education is not like a one time people get it. Like, that's not how it works. It is a constant reteaching, reeducating over and over. You know, turnover happens, a new person is brought in, and so then you have to reeducate them, and the cycle just kind of starts over at that point. So it's difficult for deaf people to get the help they need when they have to navigate so many barriers in the system before we even get the help that we need. And so oftentimes deaf people give up during that navigation process before they ever even receive the help that they need.

[22:33] RENEE' SITES-ERWIN: You're correct.

[22:35] KATELYN JOURNEY: And, I mean, I don't know, it just happened one too many times.

[22:39] RENEE' SITES-ERWIN: Yeah. Access is really hard to come by sometimes. Even as we mentioned earlier, for people who are well educated like ourselves, this is something we just have to get used to for the rest of our lives, and it tends to be very frustrating for all deaf individuals. Access is not just sticking an interpreter in there to communicate, but it's creating that sense of ease, that sense of confidence and relaxation instead of the constant stress of worrying. Are we going to understand? Am I going to be able to communicate my needs to the other person? And as you mentioned, that repeat cycle that creates high anxiety and that can impact our mental health, our physical health, all of that is added to the situation and that takes a toll on us, that constant need to fight for access.

[23:41] KATELYN JOURNEY: I want to add, too, how can we get the help that we need for our emotional and mental and safety, whatever it might be that we need? How can we get that help without language access, cultural access? I mean, it's impossible.

[24:04] RENEE' SITES-ERWIN: That that reminds me of something that hearing people, their families, their parents, their siblings, aunts and uncles, everybody speaks, everybody hears. So the support's possible there more than for a deaf individual who have family who don't communicate. I'd say 70% to 80% of the parents at least don't sign.

[24:27] KATELYN JOURNEY: I actually think it's a little higher than that.

[24:29] RENEE' SITES-ERWIN: Oh, wow. Can you imagine? You and I are very fortunate that our parents learn some sign. Well, my mom does anyway. She signs them, and so we have a little bit of support there in the home environment. But many of our deaf individuals we run into don't have that. The family can't sign at all. And so it's impossible for people to feel totally comfortable with their family. And so they need to go somewhere that they can find someone who can advocate for them, whether it's at the Social Security office, DHS, Department of Human Services, whatever their needs are. They just feel calmer and more secure if they have another deaf individual by their side who gets it, rather than feeling isolated in that situation.

[25:14] KATELYN JOURNEY: Yep, that's right.

[25:16] RENEE' SITES-ERWIN: So thank you so much for coming and doing this interview with me today. I really thank you for all you do. I don't know if I ever tell you that enough, but I really do appreciate you, Katelyn

[25:26] KATELYN JOURNEY: Well, thank you. I feel the same.

[25:28] RENEE' SITES-ERWIN: That's awesome.

[25:29] KATELYN JOURNEY: It's been wonderful working with you.

[25:31] RENEE' SITES-ERWIN: I agree.