Katherine Maxwell and Adrienne Maxwell

00:00 Hi, I'm Katherine Maxwell. I'm 65 years old. Today is Saturday June 13th, 2020 in Somers Montana. My partner is my daughter Adrienne Maxwell.

00:22 Hi and Adrienne Maxwell, I'm 35 years old. Today's date is Saturday, June 13th, 2020 located. It is Somers Montana and my interview partner is Katherine Maxwell. She's my mother.

00:46 So let's stop going on in your life. What's the most important thing that's happened to you this year in 20 my first child. My son was born in April of 2020 Douglas. We waited a long time to have had my husband and I and end tried for a long time and do this when I learned I was pregnant last fall. It was about the most exciting and things went well until we went into lockdown for the plantagenet. It was a very normal pregnancy.

01:33 And what when did you hear about the Coronavirus?

01:42 It's probably a little bit in the news and the first when I really start to think about it and when my prenatal appointment they started asking if I've been in contact with anyone been traveling and it sort of this is my life in a way more than just so so when was that, when did you stop stop thinking? This could affect my life? Probably February of 2020 maybe going into March traveling and I just a little bit more tune into it. Then I might have been otherwise for those health reasons, but

02:38 That's that's when I started realizing that it was my doctor's office, So when you worried about the health of your baby cuz he was going to be born on April.

03:00 Worried about the virus was that babies were fine. And that mothers were fine. And so I was sort of I was definitely worried for the World At Large and worried maybe about being able to doctor's appointments and that kind of thing, but but I never really worried personally, I guess for Malcolm Moore or myself. And did you take any like for me? I was worried because you said we wouldn't be able to see the baby right away. We had to quarantine and that it might be a long time before we even got to meet. So that was really kind of scary for me that you weren't going to be able to come to the hospital. You kind of blew me off and said how did that feel? Well when it actually says tank and that was it was just like

03:56 Terrified like it's like this is what you do when you have a new grandchild in your two hours away, you know, you go to the hospital and paste the holes and wait and do all of that and just being so close but you know being so far away was really kind of I don't know it just sort of work on that. This was really real and we had to you know, I had to stay really healthy because if I got it then I would never be a being that would be even lock up you or I could see them. So yeah, it was like, I guess it was quite worrying and it made us like very careful about quarantining and staying home not exposing us a really good job of not I didn't worry about new. I said only worried about obviously sorry that you wouldn't be there and see him, but I didn't worry that you were

04:54 Upset about it, really and I think the thing that made me feel okay. This is you've been here before if you talked about when I was born and you were in Montana and your mother was a New Zealand and not here and and you sort of stuff. That's okay. My mom didn't need, you know, you didn't beat me Adrian until I was angry and souls and that was unsure really hard fer. Ya for you and your mother, but you made me feel like it would be okay whenever you did me then yeah.

05:27 Yeah, I must have felt worse about it than I let on to your very kind enough to worry about it. So I'm just looking at the questions. Are there any experiences from your past that help you prepare for this life? Can you think of anything that helped you go? Okay. I'm having a baby. It's a pandemic. It's going to be different but I can cope I haven't really had anything to compare it to you know, maybe if I've had other kids and had this experience in the hospital that was really meaningful and I would have felt robbed in that but you know, I do it all so it's kind of in some way easier because it made my world smaller. So I think it was maybe the last 6 weeks of my pregnancy. I was working from home and my husband was working from home. So we were always care.

06:28 Together in that was really nice. Do you know you know that we only saw you on a couple of very socially distant visit, you know, I never wanted it a baby shower or a big a lot of people around either before or after he was born and so in some ways that made it easier to just bought with mouth women to have this kind of my husband and not you know, everyone else can kind of can wait and then after he was born and I really felt like I wanted you for coming to visit but yeah, I made it nice especially for a first baby whenever things brand new. I didn't feel like I missed out on too much really have all your girlfriends around, you know Zoom calls and that's how it would have been. Anyway, I don't know most of them.

07:28 People talked a lot about kind of all the things you should do before your baby is born like go out to dinner as much as possible and go to the movies. You'll never go to the movies again, and I didn't do any of that because you couldn't really go out but we just found other ways so, you know spend time together or not, but it was watching movies at home or you know, it made it cooking more elaborate meals that we have some baby was born just finding ways to still enjoy those last few moments before your parents.

08:02 I remember like coming down to see you because it's like a 2-hour drive and but we would like bring groceries and things and then sitting at the back of the car and you would you know, and it would sit back in your baby isn't even born and I don't really care for it. And why are you coming all the way down? And then as soon as I saw you across a little bit of a distance, it was really nice. It was really glad you didn't even though it seems so yeah, I do feel bad that we went there when you came home from the hospital cuz you told us not to and I felt well.

09:01 I got to do what you say is not come down and then I thought afterwards when we could have just for the underneath the balcony and you could have held him out, but we didn't even do that. I think it would have been too hard. I mean, yeah, I feel to touch how long before we came to visit you and being able to just put them in your arms felt so good. I would have been really hard and I wasn't ready for ya sound so when you went to the hospital was it did they do anything different at the hospital because of the virus or yes, but again, it's hard to know what to compare it to. I mean when we went in a, you know took our temperature right away, I was ended up having his birthday do stand so.

10:01 Schedule when I was going into the hospital, do you know and so we showed up at ten 8 at night the hospital was totally quiet and they just took her temperature and sends us up and and you're in our own little room for four days. Is that right at the queen, you know before and after he was born and my husband wasn't allowed to leave. So call was in the room with me basically the entire time and there was no one else but the nurses there were a lot of things that they did themselves safe and have different levels of PPE in the hospital but for us it was just basically we were stuck in a room and had to wait for the baby to be born and everything went well and he was helping when he was healthy.

11:01 Really prepared for that and then when he was born, he wasn't breathing and so he took them maybe 15 minutes to say he was doing fine. And then they took him away to the NICU for an hour just to watch him and my husband Paul about to go with him, but I didn't hold out them for the first hour of his life, which I always, you know, I regret a little bit but it's obviously much better that he was safe and healthy and he ended up here, you know, they got him breathing really quickly and I could hear and then my cousin to say his color is good and all these things and so it was a pretty short-lived scare. But no, other than that, he was born healthy.

11:50 Oh.

11:57 Tell me about Malcolm's first 7 weeks is he when he was born. He immediately started anyway, there's all these you're supposed to do to work on their hand and that was really challenging at first and he still has a while but he's so small and we're working very hard for him to gain weight and keep growing but it's been kind of interesting doing all of those appointments with a lactation nurse. Didn't you know Malcolm even met his pediatrician. He's she's seen him on like a telemedicine visit over Microsoft teams, but he's never have pediatrician has never held him and he's almost two months old. So, you know a lot of what we're learning about his growth is coming from

12:54 Me over using doctor Google and not from a pediatrician which is really interesting. But he seems to be growing and changing and all the ways that babies do and you've seen him now. It says the third visit that we made them to bring them to you and you still think he's growing in a normal baby when you have a little bit more perspective than I do. What do you think? He's just the best baby. That was well, maybe just completely the best thing that's ever happened to me. And to your dad. This is my first baby in your first grandchild. He's just he's just so cuddly and woman connects with you and it just sort of getting to know he's really incredibly nice and then you know,

13:54 You just heading back to mom and dad to take care of the middle-of-the-night feedings and changing the diapers. And yeah. So, what do you want from Malcolm? I mean, what kind of will have you brought him into a man. The world that I did anticipate it in some ways. I mean there's a lot this is been a really busy year for society in and not just a pandemic but and and not just some you know, what in the news right now. There are there protests going on about police brutality wait until I see between that and the public health issues there been all these conversations about what it is to be a person in society and not just how to do no harm, but they actually do good. And so I think there's it's giving me a lot of reasons to think about kind of what kind of person I want now come to be and what I see.

14:54 Myself that I could do better and teach him to do better, you know, it's with the with the PIN to your shoes or more being a good being a good citizen means staying home when you can and when you need to go out put a mastodon and do all these things that help keep other people safe in addition to you and then we see people doing the opposite of getting really angry about having to wear a mask that they take their haircut and and my hope for Malcolm is that he's someone that can see the bigger picture and his role in society and and try to recognize his effect on other people as well. As any reasonable level of probably harder to keep the young kids to do it.

15:43 You know, he's going to feel invincible and then the other conversations going on about about race and our place in society and he's little he's just a little white boy in Montana, which is very no not a diverse there certainly both the diversity between you know, Native American reservations that we lived is it there's a rather the Flathead Indian reservation is between your house and our essence of his driving to the reservation every time he comes to visit you and so he does have exposure to two different cultures, but I think it's going to be important for me to travel and it's going to be important to teach him know. Maybe it's it's beyond not doing harm to society as how it could be a horse for for good. So not just not not working to not be a racist person himself but being anti-racists and and actually creating change and not just being comfortable as a young white.

16:43 Duke and being out in the world enough to have a more Global Perspective than you would have gotten just being racist I hope so, but I think I'm always going to be most comfortable in Montana and that's I think the question about myself and what makes me comfortable being here as opposed to the other places. I've lived in New York, which was a much more suitable sculpture, but it

17:14 You know, I was never that comfortable in the city and I'd rather be in the country but that comes with a lot of whiteness and a lot of things that make it easier to be it's easier to be me here. Then then have to question myself in that kind of thing. And I hope that Malcolm's not just exposed enough to travel into temporary living other places, but he actually can participate in the world outside of himself and make these decisions about who he wants to be and not just excited by where he grew up.

17:53 All I can hear by. Yeah, we have a crying baby. Do you think you need to take care of them? Who do you feel most connected to these days?

18:14 Connected to I mean definitely my husband, who's this has brought us. You know, it's something you can't really I don't know. I thought we were really close. So we've definitely gotten closer over the project of raising a human together and that's been you know, I knew he'd be good at it, but he's an amazing father and and it's working so hard at it to him to be warm in there. Every time. I talk to someone who's of an older generation. They just tell me to remember how lucky I am to be married to someone in this day and age were fathers are expected to be really presents and and it's come very naturally call. So I feel really lucky about that. I feel more connected to you because I understand sort of

19:05 A little bit more about what he's gone through being my mom and and you know that's been really special to and I am really glad that we figured out how to be in the same place together, even though maybe that public health degree dictates that we not be spending so much time together I think being at where I can imagine that we can keep each other safe and being able to be around you. It's been really helpful and and dad to I don't like that sort of risk analysis that you make though because it's like well, I've had to go back to work and it's a very safe, you know environment and you know, I kind of keep my distance from people that come to my office and trying to keep things clean and it's not like we have people in and out all day. I mean, I might see other than you know, it's Alicia my help.

20:05 Mutsy like one other person the day coming actually into the office and I keep my distance but it's like I just always have to keep reminding myself that we haven't had any new cases and county for 6 weeks or something now, so it's you know, statistically it's very safe. But it's like you still it's just there in the back of your mind that you know, if I heard somebody out there and you just always have to be a little bit wearing. I mean, I do go to the grocery store now, but always with me and I don't go to any other cuz it's really nothing else. We need anything else, you know, it's so interesting to me that you are worried about you know, where you go and travel and all this public because you want to keep Malcolm safe yet when I think statistically you

21:05 You are the one who is way more at risk than he is. I mean being older and that's the way this virus attacks. It's pretty that we don't know everything but it seems gentle on police and hard on people who are over 60. So why is it that you're more focused on him then maybe because it's like taking risks and gotten away with it too many times in my life, you know, but but yeah and I have you know, I have that both had the coronavirus in in Montana and in March and they will all know my age and older and they have all recovered and you know, I mean, yeah, I know but you just I just worry about it because people are not taking it seriously enough you know this

22:05 Like people getting together in groups. This is Bob down the street where you know, I come home at night and then and the parking lot is full and it's like I know those people not social distancing and it's like if it just takes one of them to have the virus to spread amongst the whole group of people and then they'll take it home. And and with too many people died in the homeless just over a hundred thousand people that didn't need to dye it where is like in New Zealand they managed to shut it down and you know, everybody nobody social distancing anymore. They're all just going about life.

22:47 Is normal and they don't as long as they keep the Border close, they don't have to worry when they're out in public. So it's like as long as it's out there you just always going to be nervous that I think about. It was Malcolm that even though I know he's he'll be fine as we stay away from crowds stayed away from going indoors except for a grocery store. So he's really he's been really Limited in the places. We're taking him, but we went to the there was the protest in Missoula and we went down one day and then I just looked down. He's in his carrier and I realize that we can put mask on but he really he can and so he's the one that if there's anything he's going to breathe it in and even if he can be fine you have to be to have an infant you have to protect him more than you ever have to protect him so much and I think Mom's probably always feel that way with a brand new baby. There's all these other diseases he could pick up that would be much worse for him, you know.

23:47 Handing a baby that hasn't been vaccinated to someone he's going to be fully exposed to a lot of different disease them and it's interesting that this isn't most the biggest threat to him is what's going to keep him from any disease exposure may be good for him and maybe he's not getting exposed while the colds and sniffles and things that would start people don't really go from here to usually when is like a new baby people would have significant Us store in and check him out. But people just keep your distance and look at them from further away, right? We got back home, you know, we're very cautious of the of all the

24:41 And then when we were in the hospital, we don't have to worry about any of it because everything started taking care taking care of for us and then when we came home, we just forgot we forgot that it was out there. We forgot that we had to be careful because we were so focused on him and it should have made me more careful but it made me really have to think about it twice and let him say we took him into a crowd of protest before I realized it was a bad place to have a baby and me had to get out of there. So I think it's worrying about him. I should be more protective of him that I probably and then I can tell if there's no if there was no pandemic I really would be handing him to everyone. You know, he's the best we've been talking about going to New Zealand's and we'd like him to meet your mother who's still alive, and she's

25:41 His great-grandmother and she's you know, she's in good health, but she's almost 90 and so I don't want to wait forever to introduce him to her. But what do you feel about you and have a sort of the same feeling you had when I was born in the time for you to see your mom again. Yeah, and it's it's not going to be easy, you know, because they they have closed the borders and New Zealand. If we did go there would have to quarantine for two weeks like very strict quarantine and in a like it's like that's not going to be fun. Just did, you know have to do that to to be able to be in the country but we talking about doing it. We going to miss we probably won't be able to do is smoke us twin mountains 19 and you know that I'll be sad that we won't be there for the birthday and the celebration but

26:41 You know, it's it's a small sacrifice for a global pandemic and then the other grandparents his other friend, but you know, I have a I have some guilt about that because I know how much they want to see him just far enough away that it's really hard. They was an Ohio. It's just a couple days drive if we really went for it maybe three days but it's there's so much risk involved in that and Paul's parents are older and and have some health conditions that I think makes it we need to be really careful and I would feel much like I would feel awful bringing any kind of infection to the country of New Zealand. I feel horrible if we came to visit you should not have to visit his grandparents and it hurt them being so strict.

27:41 Lockdown, I mean they haven't met that house and and they haven't been able to Ohio's not quite as safe feeling is one thing that I just opened. You know, I'm straight lockdown talking to my mom and very very depressed when she was doing a neighborhood. She just let you know it just emotional toll on her being locked up and then feeling station off to be let out.

28:41 Parents are struggling because they are, you know a vulnerable population and so is things open up around then there's all this pressure to come back and be part of society and push the back out and it's really not safe and they know it's not safe. So we talked about going to visit them all the time and they have to say I don't think we're ready for you to come even though we'd love to me and also because it's not safe yet but one is the organist at her church and they wanted her to come back and she had to basically say she didn't feel safe doing that. And I think that's right, but it's hard when you're older people in the position to be the ones who don't get to participate in society when everyone else seems to be able to whether it's you know, where the capital of Italy

29:32 Okay, so we vote would be telling for 30 minutes. Do you feel like I do Adrian. I was curious.

29:50 I guess just anything new that you've experienced in yourself since giving birth to Malcolm as a mom as a person.

30:02 I don't know yet. I think it all feels really new and it's still sort of like I'm

30:11 I don't know just reacting to things I think in some ways I've surprised myself because I really value my sleep and that being able to you know, having sleep on someone else's schedule has been kind of a challenge but I think I'm as surprised myself in my ability to sort of recover and heal from giving birth. I had no idea what it would be like and you know, we're not going out as much as we would have maybe normally but we're still trying to get outside and walk every day and and expose them to the elements in the rain and all these things to the least known that part of society is that that part of being in the world and so I think my ability to Kenneth even if I'm tired get up and take him outside for an hour or two and that feels pretty good in like I'm proud that we've been able to do that even if

31:06 I can't hand them to a lot of other people I can least expose them to that really nice watching you being a mom. I feel like I missed quite extraordinary that little boy.

31:30 Oh, I didn't know if she's just she's just always there for him and she knows you know, she's just in two of them. She knows what he needs peanut, but he's hungry whether he's just need to change of scenery whether he needs whether he needs Play Time whether he's had enough place just very in tune with them all mothers have to be that way because you have to anticipate what season and wet. I don't know it. It keeps changing. So I'll think that he's tired and I realize that he's not a brand new board anymore and he could be awake a little bit longer and you know, I'm constantly adapting to but I don't think I have a good idea what it means to be a good mother yet know he's not asking me any hard questions or pushing me in any particular way. He's just all he needs her.

32:30 Take me to the airport. So I don't think I can evaluate myself yet know I think you're you're just on the right track and you're going to be a lot of help.

32:44 Equal partner that's raising him with me. You know, my husband said a teacher and he's off.

32:54 He's actually taking a year off. So he will be home will be for the primary caregiver. I'm already starting to go back to work and got him. So I think if you'd be a good mother when you have a it also has a good father that understands them maybe better than you. Do I learn a lot from her research on the internet. I think that's one of the worst things about being a parent these days. There's constantly any question you have someone else has had it but there is always different responses. And none of the People's Party On message boards are doctors. I should have read them at all.

33:39 I have one more before we finish and you totally don't have to do this if you don't want to but picture it's you know, 1825 30 years in the future Malcolm stumbles upon this recording.

33:55 What would you want to say to Future Malcolm?

33:59 It's hard to picture. I mean I wanted to know that.

34:09 There were when he was born. He was kind of on his own with his parents and that that didn't even to work. There was this whole community of people that was excited that he was or an incentive love. I mean the number of people who reached out to us and it's their people I would never expected, you know, there's a huge community that he was born into and and by the time he's eighteen Hilltop mad all these people but you know, they were there for him from the beginning and you know, there's nothing sort of about his somewhat unique. Well, I guess what it was when he was born into is going to be the same at all of his friends went through because it's something happening globally, but I hope that by the time he's

34:55 By the time he's older he recognizes that baby being born in this time of global in some ways Global connectedness than ever when going through the same thing. I hope that he feels that the people that he grew up where our help me a good society that that reflects that we all have to be in it together and it will also care for each other. I don't know it just feels like we just we just hope I mean, it just seems like there's been so many things happened this year that have been disastrous and it seems like it's okay. It's just a year of turmoil and I just hope that it's like

35:40 But it's at any point that we go forward. I hope he doesn't feel like he was robbed of a normal life. You know. I hope that even if things go back to normal normal or they don't but I hope that he doesn't feel like he was unfairly brought into challenging times. I hope that there's a lot of Dua in a lot of things that work hard at his life to even if you had to work to you know, if he's had to had to work a little bit more.

36:15 That's what I hope.