Kathleen O'Dell and Andrea Croley

[00:02] KATHLEEN O'DELL: My name is Kathleen O'Dell Today's date is Thursday, April 21, 2022. The location is the Ozarks in Missouri. My interview partner is Andrea Croley and she is a longtime friend.

[00:17] ANDREA CROLEY: My name is Andrea Croley Today's date is Thursday, April 21, 2022. Our location is the Ozarks, Missouri. And my interview partner is Kathleen O'Dell And I will say the same thing. We've been blessed to be friends for a long time.

[00:37] KATHLEEN O'DELL: Andrea, I know that you have just an amazing story about the bombing of Dresden in Germany. And I know that the bombing was a british american aerial bombing attack on the city of Dresden, which was the capital of the german state of Saxony during World War two. There's so much about the story. But what was the background of your family in all of this?

[01:03] ANDREA CROLEY: Well, the background of our family was such that they both, our whole family, my mother, my father, my grandmother, and all of our relatives, lived in Dresden during the time of the bombing. The bombing was something that was unexpected, and I think the reason for which it was unexpected is because Dresden only had two naira aircraft guns, and people had actually gone to Dresden when so many of the other towns in Germany were bombed. I think they sought it as a refuge, and there were a lot of artists. It was a cultural city, and they never, ever anticipated that anybody would even think about bombing Dresden. So when this occurred, I think it was very much of a surprise, but it occurred so rapidly, from what I understand, because it was the fire bombings that occurred. And they. By they, I mean the air force, both the Americans and the british air force bombed for three days. I think the thing that was so horrific about it, and really, if I. I hear my family talk about it, is it was unexpected, even though they'd hear the sirens. And I remember them saying, you know, we'd hear those sirens. And you almost got to thinking, well, those sirens, they're just going off. And I think there was no way that they really. After a while, you know, you hear something all the time, and you think, oh, I'm not gonna pay a whole lot of attention to it.

[02:42] KATHLEEN O'DELL: But where did they tell you that they were during the bombings, and how did they.

[02:46] ANDREA CROLEY: Okay, well, and now that's a really good question. Of course, I wasn't born yet. I was born after the war, but my understanding was my grandmother, whose house was actually bombed, the neighbors had actually asked her to come over to their home, and it was a godsend, because her house was actually bombed. She lived in a beautiful, beautiful home and a beautiful area right outside of Dresden. But close to the downtown area. My father's family and my. Excuse me. My mother's family lived outside, in. Outside of Dresden. That area was not bombed because it wasn't as close to the city, to the central area. And really, most of the bombings that took place took place in downtown Dresden and the outlying areas. So they lived kind of in the suburbs, so they were not bombed. So it was my grandmother's house. Luckily, she survived the bombings. Okay. So that was very fortunate. And during that time, also, my father was drafted into the service. And, I mean, he was older, but remember, it was close to the end of the war. 1945 is when these vrombings occurred, and they just needed every single person that they could get and round up. And men were just drafted, regardless of the age.

[04:19] KATHLEEN O'DELL: So he had to leave the family.

[04:21] ANDREA CROLEY: He had to leave the family. He was sent to the eastern front along with. Well, they ended up finding the Russians. And next to him were the other allies at that time. That was Italy. And I remember my dad saying, gosh darn it, I don't mean anything against Italians because I love them. He said, we Germans would stay there and try to fight the battle where the Italians, he said, they just kind of took off. That was his statement. They're lovers. Lovers, yes. And then the unfortunate thing in regard to our family, his brother. His brother was a diplomat in England, and he was also drafted, and he had been killed in Stalingrad earlier, of course. You know, that's when Hitler had invaded Stalingrad in that winter war. So that was a very tragic thing. So my father was in the war. His brother had been killed, and the rest of my mother's family, they were very safe. I mean, they were very, very fortunate that their house was not bombed.

[05:33] KATHLEEN O'DELL: Well, what happened when the Russians took over Dresden with Putin from the KGB in charge of the saxophone?

[05:39] ANDREA CROLEY: Well, okay. And the thing is, I do have to mention, Putin actually did not take over until later.

[05:48] KATHLEEN O'DELL: Much later.

[05:49] ANDREA CROLEY: After. Yeah, after the bombings. And this was after World War Two had concluded, when. Let's talk about what happened with Germany. Germany. As far as historically, what happened, of course, the Allies were the French and then the Americans and the British. Then you had the Russians. Okay? So Germany was divided up into four sectors, and I don't. You know, of course, you know, Berlin was also divided up into four sectors. And so the area in which we lived, which was Saxony, and that. That region of Dresden, that happened to become the russian sector, okay, Berlin had four sectors, too. So they had, you know, you know, all four of the countries were there, and then the rest of the country was divided up for, you know, the French and the Americans, probably. If you talk to America, I mean, any German that lived through this bombing in Germany, you will hear them say and compliment the american soldiers, which is really a wonderful thing to hear from a perspective of how kind they were. Of course, I think for the Americans, it was horrific to see a lot of them didn't know about Dachau and all of the concentration camps, you know, that were actually there, but you wanted to live in an american sector because the soldiers were very good. So what happened, my father, when he was actually fighting in the war, and by the way, I will honestly say this. My father was not a Hitler supporter at all. I think a lot of people felt that all the Germans were Hitler supporters. That was not true. So when he was drafted, when he was on the front line, and he saw this happening and he knew history, and the Russians were very close to winning war anyway on the eastern front at that point in time, because it was late in the war, and my father yelled out, this is the stupidest war. I don't understand why we're even here. Which is not a good thing to yell out when you've got somebody that is your general or your commanding officer. So my father got pulled aside and he was sent to a concentration camp. Honestly, this is kind of a horrible thing to say. He certainly didn't want that going to the concentration camp to occur to him. However, it probably saved his life because so many of the people in that battalion were killed. Okay. But as a result, when the war ended, he was very, very fortunate because he was in the. The american sector. So my grandmother was an american citizen that got married in Germany to a German, where my father lucked out, is being in the american sector and being released.

[09:19] KATHLEEN O'DELL: Wow.

[09:20] ANDREA CROLEY: So he was released from the. So, yeah, yeah. So he ended up coming home after the war. He was very fortunate that he was in the american sector. I think you found, too, that probably the French and the British were probably very kind and gentle. I'm not going to really think that that was necessarily the case with the russian sector.

[09:47] KATHLEEN O'DELL: So after he was released, went back to his wife and their family and was there a home to go back to? They were.

[09:56] ANDREA CROLEY: Remember, that was my. My mother. My mother's family's home was not bombed. So when he returned home, he found that his house, his mother's house had been bombed. Well, because the city was so devastated. I mean, it was three days of bombings and fire bombings. The whole city was just totally in ruins. It was just all rubbles. And if we want to talk about the war, even Ukraine right now, I mean, you see some of us right now, Kathleen, you know, we see this on tv and you think here that this, you know, we actually, I think what's interesting, too, they had pictures back then, but I think with us, don't.

[10:50] KATHLEEN O'DELL: You think today they didn't have cell phone video?

[10:52] ANDREA CROLEY: No. No. And day to day, you know, information.

[10:58] KATHLEEN O'DELL: This is pretty 24 hours news cycle and you see it. Yeah, I wondered about that too, as you were talking, that we are seeing what people, we are seeing the reality, what your father saw during World War two.

[11:16] ANDREA CROLEY: Right, right. So the reality of that time, I mean, there were, there were filmings, but when they showed Dresden after the war, it was just totally, totally wiped out out. I mean, it'd be, I guess if you looked at Kiev or something like that, all these beautiful buildings downtown that we still see that are standing as you and I speak and pray to God that we don't see that city today wiped out. But when you see the center of your beautiful city, and it was, it was really, Kathleen, it was known for its art and music and poets and real cultural stuff. Yeah, it was very, very cultural. And so I think it was a devastation.

[11:57] KATHLEEN O'DELL: It must have been really painful. So then when he returned and like, how long did they stay there?

[12:02] ANDREA CROLEY: Well, so when he returned, he came back to our, my parents home. And what occurred then was that the russian soldiers ended up coming over through from, they came in and took over Dresden and they claimed victory. They brought in all their troops. I think we kind of talked about this a little. I mean, they were brutal. They were just brutal because Dresden had already been bombed. So many people had been killed. But they went out in the neighborhoods where my mother lived in her neighborhood. They told all the women that they were going to hide them because the russian soldiers just raped all the women. My father talked about the fact that when they came from house to house, they'd ripped down the curtains, they drank out of the toilets. I mean, it was just very, very, very sad what the german people saw. There was no mercy with the soldiers that were there. Maybe we see some of that today. Some of the action, you know, that that occurred was very typical of what happened to Dresden at that time when everybody was already so devastated.

[13:28] KATHLEEN O'DELL: So how long did they stay there before they decided?

[13:32] ANDREA CROLEY: Yeah. So my father and mother ended up having two children. They lived in my mother's house. Her family had a canning factory. And it was not bombed. So we were very fortunate to have. You know, the Germans love jellies. You know, they love their bread and butter, and. And the breakfasts were always these wonderful jellies. Well, this was a. You know, the factory wasn't bombed, so they continued to make these, you know, make the jelly. And my grandfather on my mother's side, actually had sugar. Okay, well, you know, sugar, cigarettes and coffee were just commodities that everybody wanted. And so. And the Germans loved birthdays. And, my gosh, birthday cake that was like. That was like heaven. And so my father, grandfather, with the canning factory, would deliver sugar at their home so that they could make a birthday cake, because everything was devastated. And this is an interesting thing, you know, you think about everything being devastated. So our family was fairly well to do. And my grandmother, I remember, took when her house was bombed. And by the way, after going back to her, she ended up. They could not stay in Dresden. Didn't matter whether you had. If it wasn't your immediate family, you couldn't stay. So she ended up having to walk with all the other people because there was, I'm sure, disease and different things, and they just had to get the people out. So she ended up walking with all the other people that had. Because her house was bombed and they wouldn't let them stay with anybody else. So she ended up walking to Munich, which is quite a. Quite a distance from Dresden. But anyway, that's going back to that story. But then going back to our family there. Going back to my grandfather and him having that canning factory. He would deliver that sugar when he knew some of his friends had a birthday or a child had a birthday coming up, he found on his doorstep. And this just is unbelievable to me. They. There was no money then, but people had their jewelry in little packs. He would find. I mean, my mother and their. They received that little gift of a ring. What good is a ring? What good is it? What good is all of this at a time where everything's devastated for sugar in exchange of saying, thank you for your kindness, because this meant so much. You know, it's funny how your heart can be touched just to remember celebrating a birthday and the fact that we're alive, so there was hope there for the people that were alive, so then that occurred. But I think you also asked another question. I do want to bring this up, and I think I'm going back now to what my mother told me. When the Russians actually came in and they had gone from house to house, they had to remove the women from the home because of the raping of the women. And so they put in their neighborhood, they had someone volunteer a house in an attic where my mother and all the other young women, or any women for that matter, were housed for. I know, I think she stayed two or three months. And of course, they had to be very quiet and silent about it.

[17:13] KATHLEEN O'DELL: Did they have to hide behind.

[17:15] ANDREA CROLEY: Oh, they were up in the attic. Oh, yeah, there was a, you know, they could not get out of that attic at all. If they found out that there were women up there, they would have, you know, gone on and gotten them. So. But then after things started settling down, I don't really know the timeframe. I just remember my mother telling me that it was horrible because she wanted to see her husband and all these women wanted to be together with their family and their husbands, but, you know, in order for them to be safe until things got settled down, they were up there for a long time. So that kind of a sad thing when you think about it. And honestly, I don't think my parents told me more details about how horrific I'm sure other things were occurred.

[18:02] KATHLEEN O'DELL: So they remained safe in that house until it was. Yeah, until the Russians retreated, I guess. Wow. So at what point did they leave Dresden?

[18:15] ANDREA CROLEY: Well, so my father ended up saying that, you know, our family's here and we. I came back here and we have all of our friends that are here, and I want to go on and start a small business and see if we can't make a go of it, living here. Even though everything was devastated, their home was still intact. And so all the family members, the family was living together on top of one another. But, you know, I think when you have this kind of an experience, it's amazing how people and families do come together and so go ahead.

[18:54] KATHLEEN O'DELL: So your family was still living there and you were born in.

[18:58] ANDREA CROLEY: I was born in Dresden after the war. And so I was very fortunate because our family was fairly well to do. So I had a nanny that took care of me and I did go back and see her because my mother always said, my gosh, we couldn't have lived without debta because she was wonderful. But there was a lot of work to be done in the household and trained, you know, women had, I mean, when you had that many people in the household just to feed them and whatever. So we were very lucky. So the fortunate thing is that he went in business with another man after two years. Of course, the Russians are not. They were not exactly what? I don't know how to. I guess I better be careful what word I use. But anybody that was in business, they were not very pro businessmen, and I think they knew that some of the people that were like that particularly, it was pretty obvious some of the people were just pretty upset with the Russians themselves. So my father couldn't stand it anymore, and a lot of his friends, you know, left Germany, so they felt very.

[20:13] KATHLEEN O'DELL: There was still a feeling of oppression.

[20:15] ANDREA CROLEY: Yeah, well, and in the isolation of the russian sector, if you look at history at all and you remember what I said about the Americans allowing, you know, really helping. Helping their people to go on and survive, providing food, providing the opportunity for economy. And that was true of both the german and the french and the english sector, even though, I mean, there was a different attitude with the soviet sector that you saw. It was run very authoritatively, and my father couldn't take it. He knew that they. I think my father was probably targeted, too, because they knew what had happened to him in the war and that he probably was for free speech. You already had the establishment at that time in dresden of pretty much that whole autocracy thing. I mean, because that's the way Russia was. Remember? I don't know the history of Stalin in that much detail, but that's the way they lived and that's the way that they were. And honestly, you know, after the Germans probably invaded Stalingrad and they were not successful, I'm sure they were not kind to the Germans, either, because they had lost so many Russians in Stalingrad, too.

[21:39] KATHLEEN O'DELL: So your dad felt more and more oppressed by the russian presidents, and he wanted to.

[21:46] ANDREA CROLEY: Well, so we left. We left.

[21:48] KATHLEEN O'DELL: Was it difficult to leave?

[21:50] ANDREA CROLEY: Yes, we fled East Germany at the beginning. It wasn't because it was so chaotic, you know, but I think people try to make a go of things. You know, when you had your family there and you want to try to make a go of things, and they had a lot of sport. Their house was there. My mother's. My mother's family had a factory that was running very well. They didn't. They kept that going because, you know, people, that was one of the few places where they could actually find that you could buy jellies and different things like that. So. But my father said, no, we've got to get out of here. A lot of their friends had already left, and they had relatives in the other part of Germany. Germany, as I told you, was divided into different sectors, and it became more and more apparent that the people that stayed in the soviet sector were much more oppressed, and it was not the same support that they got as they got in the other sectors of trying to rebuild your life. So we ended up two years after I was born, they packed their things and put it together. And of course, at that time, they were really watching people because the stasi, the KGB, all of them had really pretty much held things down. The timeline. There was such, I don't think Putin was there yet, and I'll go over that later on. But the bottom line was that they took us to Berlin, and then we flew out of Berlin and we ended up with my uncle. And then my grandmother, who was an american citizen, helped us. She was. Yes, she maintained her citizenship, and then she said, okay, I'm going to bring you to America. Okay. But, you know, immigration was a different thing back in those days because you had to apply. It wasn't like even though your family had a lot to offer. My dad or dad had a doctorate and everything, but immigration at that time was, when did you get your papers in? It didn't matter, even though you had, you know, some status. So we had to wait for two years while we couldn't stay with my uncle and his family for two years. So my grandmother moved us down to Rome. While I was in Rome for two years, I went to kindergarten there. We were very, very blessed because it was such a beautiful city. She had an apartment for us, and then it became very expensive. So then we went to Anzio, and then our immigration papers came through. And when those immigration papers came through, my grandmother got us. I mean, this again, she was, they had magic chef stove company in St. Louis, and so her family was fairly well to do, and so she got us all on the boat in Hamburg, Germany, and this was in 1952, and we were able to go on the Queen Mary and land in New York. And Kathleen, I mean, I was so excited because my parents were talking about how wonderful America is and we're going to have freedom there and whatever, and whatever. And when we landed, I remember this. My parents said, you were so funny. You asked your dad, oh, how come the streets aren't paved with gold? Because I just, you know, I had been told the streets are gold, and I was little enough to, you know, to say that. So, you know, I think for our family, that was. That was great that we were there.

[25:38] KATHLEEN O'DELL: Yeah. So they settled in St. Louis, then.

[25:41] ANDREA CROLEY: Yes. And Kathy, you know, everybody always thinks everything's going to be hunky dory. Right. You know, that was. It's not easy. It was not easy because when you come to the United States as an immigrant, and my grandmother was in St. Louis. We were very fortunate. We had family there, and so we were very, very fortunate there. I remember I cried a lot because we were moved from place to place trying to find a place. But my grandmother was, was lovely. She bought us a great home in Webster Groves. I mean, we were very, very fortunate, but that doesn't mean that everybody is going to love somebody that comes from Germany. And back in that time, I wonder.

[26:25] KATHLEEN O'DELL: If you felt, or if your family probably more so, felt some animosity, for sure. Animosity.

[26:33] ANDREA CROLEY: And, you know, for the most. Yeah, for the most part, we even had the FBI. I remember come and knock on our door one time when we were in our house. So I was in the third grade and I didn't speak English. And I remember my third grade teacher was so awesome. I mean, it's so funny how you think, gosh, you've got to learn a language. And just think about that. I had spoken Italian. I didn't know how to speak English. But you look at school teachers and think, wow, isn't it awesome how much they can help you?

[27:07] KATHLEEN O'DELL: And so you arrived by the time you were in, what, third grade?

[27:10] ANDREA CROLEY: Yeah, so I was in third grade, and I remember very well. Most of our neighborhood was fabulous, and I had a wonderful childhood. But there were people that you, that, you know, I remember asking, can I be in that girl scout group? And one of the mothers said, no, I'm not going to let you. Somebody that came from Germany. And I remember just crying for weeks thinking, oh, my gosh. But most of the people were not like that. But Kathleen, you know, that life is, I mean, we all. And later on, her mom and her family became good friends of ours. I'm sure she never knew. A little kid gets excluded from something, you know, it's just, it's hard. But I'm sure that that happens to anybody when you're moving in a situation like that.

[28:04] KATHLEEN O'DELL: I would imagine so. But I imagine there was a lot of suspicion surrounding a few coming from Germany.

[28:10] ANDREA CROLEY: Exactly right. You know, think about. Think about all the soldiers that were lost there. And you're absolutely right. This was an area where people were very well educated and, yes, absolutely. Why would you not be seen, you know, suspicious? So.

[28:27] KATHLEEN O'DELL: So as they settled in Webster Groves, you said you had to move a.

[28:32] ANDREA CROLEY: Lot, but, well, no, once we settled in Webster, we stayed in that house and our neighborhood. Oh, Kathleen, it was wonderful. And, you know, I cannot say anything other than the fact that we had a very educated neighborhood. You know, you got to play in the streets. You played kickball in the streets of. You were out and about, and it was wonderful. We had. We had. Kathleen, so many people that visited us from Germany.

[29:03] KATHLEEN O'DELL: I was going to ask you if you kept ties with your friends in Germany.

[29:06] ANDREA CROLEY: Oh, my gosh. And my mom went all the time. But this is what was interesting to me. You know, those were, those years after the war were really pretty good years. Remember howdy Doody? I don't know. It's a hottie duty. But Eisenhower was the president at that time, and we were in rather peaceful times. America had adjusted, and everybody thought because the Americans did such a nice job in Europe and rebuilding Germany and helping the Germans out, that a lot of them saw the benefits of visiting our country because we were so hailed, so they would send their children to stay with us at our house for the summer or learn how to speak English. Interesting. Wouldn't we love for America to be like that today? I mean, not that people do want to come here, but that almost everybody from Germany just wanted their kids to learn how to speak English because they knew that was a path to better education. So they'd stay with us at our house. So our house was full of Germans all the time. But our neighbors were very welcoming, too, because it opened. These were wonderful families that sent their kids there, and they were well educated and everything. So it was very, very interesting.

[30:37] KATHLEEN O'DELL: You were probably good ambassadors or the German.

[30:40] ANDREA CROLEY: Well, and even if we look at it, when I think about, by the way, you and I being together in the Rotary Club, you and I were one of the first women in the Rotary Club here in Springfield. But when I think about it, I remember first joining, starting. We had that exchange program. I mean, what a wonderful experience for kids to be able to live with another family. And I was very involved with them in the sister cities. But, you know, it's easy when you've been in the situation that I've been in with our family and everything, for me to understand and welcome other people. When you've had that experience, it doesn't feel uncomfortable at all.

[31:25] KATHLEEN O'DELL: I was going to ask you, how did your background influence your attitude as a teenager and in college?

[31:33] ANDREA CROLEY: Well, it's really funny, because after I lived in Webster and I was in high school and my mother had gone to Europe almost every single year, she was very lonesome for her family, and they were very, very tight. So when I was in high school, I told my father, I want to go when I'm close to graduate. The year before I was, I went. I went when I turned 16.

[32:06] KATHLEEN O'DELL: I.

[32:06] ANDREA CROLEY: Was pretty young to go, but I saved some money, and that was a goal of mine. And when I went over, that's when my cousin was there. Well, that's when the communists were still ruling. And that was when Putin was, was there, and he was in Saxony. And still I didn't understand why my cousin said, don't talk. We're at a restaurant. You're being watched. So at that time, the KGB and all of the. What you saw were, you know, basically watching me. My mother was watched as well. We had an american citizenship. Well, I'm sure that they were very. Yes, yes. Because my cousin actually wanted to escape himself because he was probably about 19 or 20 years old at that time. You know, the Berlin wall was still up, so. And people that were younger, particularly, you know, that had not been able to escape. So we, we had. We had relatives that were on the way. We called it the west, okay? That would send food in and other things, because the eastern sector, the russian sector, didn't have that luxury. It wasn't as wealthy. They just did not rule as well as the other sectors. It was not economically. It was much worse. And so the younger I. Younger people, he was 19 at the time, told me that I, if I could help him escape, he wanted me to help them escape. And I thought to myself, I don't know how to tell you how to escape, because we, we saw films. I don't know whether you saw it, but if you saw people trying to, you know, go over the Berlin Wall and escape, you saw them. Yeah, they were. They were killed. But he, he would not let me talk in the restaurant. Many times we'd go out in the park and we'd talk about things, and he'd bring his friends over with him and they'd try to say, well, is there not a way we can figure out how to get out here? And I got on the train after I left Dresden, and I just cried, thinking how sad. How sad it is that it's still like that, you know? And it was a time that was interesting to me because I did not know. I have a cousin that hopefully we'll talk about, too, that was very involved with rebuilding the city of Dresden. He's an architect. But he had talked to me about the fact that during that time, you know, he had some dealings with Putin, who was at that time a very, very young man, but he headed, you know, the secret service in KGB back at that time. And, you know, Kathleen, I really just started reading about this myself. I kind of started googling it myself, thinking, oh, my gosh, I guess I didn't realize that he even had been there. Now, he was a very young man at the time, and if you maybe google it and look at it, there's probably some very interesting things that go into the way he really was back at that time. But I just found that somewhat interesting that he actually was in that well.

[35:48] KATHLEEN O'DELL: And it's interesting that you were living during that time. I know that was going on, but you almost have. But you were living your life and dealing with.

[35:57] ANDREA CROLEY: Right. A different life. Yeah. We're dealing with the younger people that are trying to figure out, how can I get out of here? You know, it's kind of, it was.

[36:05] KATHLEEN O'DELL: Look back and you think, oh, my God, what's going on? All the time that. Yeah, you know, my cousins and friends were trying to get out.

[36:12] ANDREA CROLEY: Yeah, yeah, I know, I know. So it, you know, the whole story. I think as we look at this, it's interesting because we look at our life and I have taken our kids with me and they've been with me where we went to Berlin and they, I would always get frisked and have to be stopped at the train station. And I remember one time I went, my husband had to go on without me and they held me back and I had to run back to catch the train because, I mean, I don't know why, but it shows Dresden an american citizen and I don't know the reason.

[36:53] KATHLEEN O'DELL: And you think that's a flag that.

[36:56] ANDREA CROLEY: Oh, yeah, it was back at that time. I don't think it is today. I think the other thing that happened, I took our two children with me to celebrate one of my cousin's birthday. And when I did that, there's a corridor. You could only drive in one certain area. You could not. They still had the Berlin wall up and it was, you know, you have what you call a corridor to drive in to the west. And I remember stopping at one of the rest places because I had to hear the bathroom. And I have my two kids in the back of the car and they took every, the Russians there took every penny I had out of my wallet and pocket. And I told my kids, I said, hey, we're gonna drive to Dresden. I want to go back down. My, my son and, and my daughter cried and my son said, you can't get off this highway. We're going to go to jail. You know. And they were. I'm trying to think. Trevor and Linsley, our daughter, were probably about twelve and eight or ten, you know, at that time. So, anyway, we had some interesting experiences.

[38:11] KATHLEEN O'DELL: I bet you had mentioned you had a cousin who was an architect.

[38:16] ANDREA CROLEY: Oh, he's an architect, I think. Yeah. And I think our conversation has to end here real quickly. But I do want to mention his name. Horst Vitter. I'm so proud of him. He helped rebuild the city of Dresden. He's one of the top architects in Germany. And I can't wait to go see him. And hopefully I can tell another story about just what he did in rebuilding Dresden. But he was very contemporary. And so I think, as I told you, he built, you know, rebuilt the center of the city, most of all, the Hof Kirche, which was the symbol of Dresden. He helped get that rebuilt. And, you know, there was some wonderful things that he did. But that might be another story.

[39:01] KATHLEEN O'DELL: I think you have a lot of stories. Andrea, you know, I've known you a long time, but I've not heard these particular stories, and I feel so honored to know you well.

[39:12] ANDREA CROLEY: I feel honored, first of all, that there is a story, storyCorps, and I want to say this, and this is for Rotary, StoryCorps, the library, that I'm so honored that you and I have the privilege to be able to do this. I think this is a wonderful thing for families to have to be able to talk to one another about it, and hopefully we can pass this on to our children.

[39:38] KATHLEEN O'DELL: I'm glad people are getting to know you well. They'll be able to hear.

[39:44] ANDREA CROLEY: This is just a different story, just one thing in our life. And I feel blessed to be able to have a friend like you to help me.

[39:51] KATHLEEN O'DELL: Thank you.