Kathryn Coumanis and Tonie Ann Torrans

[00:05] KATHRYN COUMANIS: Good morning. My name is Kathryn Calagarita's Coumanis I'm 86 years old. Today's day is October 30, 2023, and we're in Mobile, Alabama. My interview partner is Tony Ann Torrans or Coumanis Coumanis Excuse me. And she is my daughter.

[00:28] TONIE ANN TORRANS: Good morning. My name is Tony Ann Coumanis Torrans I am 57 years old. Today's date is October 30, 2023. We are in Mobile, Alabama. My interview partner is my mother, and her name is doctor Katherine Coumanis We're here today because we wanted to share the story of Penelope House. And Penelope House is a shelter for victims of domestic violence and their children, and it was the first shelter of such in the state of Alabama. We opened in March of 1979, and we're actually the fifth shelter in the nation. And at that time, domestic violence really wasn't even a term. So when you hear people talking about battered women and their children, you know that they're old school, longtime supporters of the movement, of those who are experiencing violence in their relationships. So we thought it would be a great way today to let my mom tell you the story of how Penelope House started. And it's a similar story for other nonprofits who are trying to get off the ground and some of the challenges and things like that that they face. So, mom, why don't you tell us how it all started?

[01:38] KATHRYN COUMANIS: Well, I was a professional social worker in 19. I started in 1963 and working for the state of Alabama and protective services. And so I was going to Montgomery one day in spring of 1978, and I heard Doctor Joyce Brothers talking about shelters for battered women in England. That was a brand new concept for me. And looking back on my work with victims, I realized that we had no such facilities in Alabama or anywhere around that I knew of. So when I went to Montgomery and asked my colleagues if they knew about shelters and if maybe we were in the process of starting some, they all said no, it wasn't in their primary projects. They had no funding for such things and had no intentions of starting shelters. So at that point, I realized that we needed shelters. Coming back home, I said, I went to a group of women that I belong to, the daughters of Penelope, and asked would they be interested in maybe helping to start a shelter, just funding that we could turn over to maybe mental health or someone. Later, they agreed to do that. We formed a board with $26 in the bank, and my cousin, who was district attorney, became our attorney. He wrote up the bylaws, and we began the process of trying to establish a shelter, raise money, and enlisted community in our support.

[03:35] TONIE ANN TORRANS: So mom, who was the district attorney at that time?

[03:38] KATHRYN COUMANIS: It was my first cousin, Chris Galanos So it was a family affair, for sure. People were very hesitant to even talk to me about battered women. It was just, they said that that was family business. That wasn't our business.

[03:56] TONIE ANN TORRANS: Did anyone, you know, professionally, you were a social worker with department of Human Resources? Did they encourage you in these thoughts of starting a shelter or.

[04:06] KATHRYN COUMANIS: No, they were very discouraging. No social workers volunteered to help at all. My supervisor at the time in the department told me I was committing professional suicide pursuing something like this, but I knew I had to do it. I had to, and so I continued to pursue it.

[04:28] TONIE ANN TORRANS: Did you have situations when you were the supervisor of DHR where you saw that domestic violence was an issue at the time?

[04:36] KATHRYN COUMANIS: Well, like I said, you know, you didn't talk about it, but I knew. One time a lady called me and said we had her children in protection, and she said that her husband had called her he was coming out of, and that he said when he got out, he would kill her. And then there were other times, there was a next door neighbor of my aunt's that when I spent the night there, I heard her husband beating her because there was no air condition then, and I could hear that. And my aunt told me in the morning not to say anything and not to look at her. So. And then anyone I spoke to, law enforcement said that was not their business. So it was very hard to enlist community support. The only thing was the pastors in the churches, they knew what was going on.

[05:31] TONIE ANN TORRANS: Why do you think they knew what was going on?

[05:33] KATHRYN COUMANIS: Because they were hearing it from their parishioners. They were seeing it. And so as soon as we established a board, the first people who reached out to help us with the churches.

[05:45] TONIE ANN TORRANS: What kind of things did they do to help?

[05:47] KATHRYN COUMANIS: Well, the first church that reached out to me said that the house that. Oh, and I couldn't get any realtors to help me find a house. So the first house we found, we just found by driving around. So the pastor called me and said that his parishioners owned that house and that they would pay half of the rent. And then he also said, I know you need printed material, brochures, a stationery, whatever. And our church will pay for all your printing for the first year.

[06:21] TONIE ANN TORRANS: Yeah. That's awesome.

[06:23] KATHRYN COUMANIS: Yeah. And then other churches reached out and offered to help within our own churches. Once we opened the shelter, so many people owned restaurants, and they kept sending food over. So people helped in every way that they could, but they still didn't want to talk about it openly.

[06:46] TONIE ANN TORRANS: Right. So let me clarify that. We are of greek nationality, and we belong to the Annunciation Greek Orthodox Church. So the many restaurants that she's talking about were owned. Were owned by Greeks. And so very generous with providing food and what have you.

[07:04] KATHRYN COUMANIS: Right. Then we belong to the Daughters of Penelope. And so since it was our daughter's chapter that formed the first board, we went to conventions and nationally enlisted their support, and they came and they continued to support us today.

[07:22] TONIE ANN TORRANS: And again, for clarification, the Daughters of Penelope is an international civic philanthropic organization. And the chapter in Mobile is called the Thayos chapter. But there's chapters throughout the US and even in Canada and Greece and Germany and other countries as well. But back then, it was the local chapter that saw the need based on mom reporting to them. And it was the local chapter who really had the guts and the vision and the passion to make it happen. So.

[07:59] KATHRYN COUMANIS: Absolutely. Absolutely. And they continue to support us to this day, as do other greek american organizations like I help a housing.

[08:11] TONIE ANN TORRANS: So when you had the early start and opened in March of 79, how did you know, like, how to go after certain grants and things like that, whether it's federal government or state or local, like city or county?

[08:26] KATHRYN COUMANIS: Well, I didn't. And there weren't any grants that were identified for this purpose. But I was real lucky that I had a mayor in Mobile that supported our mission. And he sent his grant writer out and told me about certain grants that we could get.

[08:43] TONIE ANN TORRANS: Okay, mom, drop some names. Who was the mayor who came out to help you?

[08:49] KATHRYN COUMANIS: The mayor was. Let me think about it.

[08:53] TONIE ANN TORRANS: Was that Mike?

[08:54] KATHRYN COUMANIS: No, it was the one before.

[08:57] TONIE ANN TORRANS: Greenough.

[08:58] KATHRYN COUMANIS: No, greenough. Yeah, greenough. And then the mayor after him. Mike down certainly was supportive. And that was later, when we were doing capital campaign. But he sent John Peavey the grant.

[09:17] TONIE ANN TORRANS: Puffenbach.

[09:17] KATHRYN COUMANIS: Huh?

[09:18] TONIE ANN TORRANS: Poffenbach.

[09:19] KATHRYN COUMANIS: Oh, John Puffenbach. I'm sorry. Yeah, John Peavey helped us, too, but he sent John Puffin back out to not only teach me how to write a grant, but to help me write a grant.

[09:30] TONIE ANN TORRANS: And so what did the first grant look like? Was it a small grant, or is.

[09:33] KATHRYN COUMANIS: It three pages in a one page budget?

[09:37] TONIE ANN TORRANS: Oh, wow. Yeah. Grant writing nowadays is not like that at all. But that first grant, what was it for?

[09:44] KATHRYN COUMANIS: It was a $200,000 grant that paid for staff only. So we had to raise the money for the housing, for food, for anything that the clients need. It was a training grant. It was. What was the grain training program back there? So it was a seda grant.

[10:06] TONIE ANN TORRANS: So how did you know when you were getting close to the shelter, opening protocols, procedures. How did you know, you know how to start from the ground floor?

[10:17] KATHRYN COUMANIS: Well, we had heard, of course, there were no shelters in Alabama. We didn't know of any shelters. We had heard of one in New York, and we had heard that there was one in Jacksonville, Florida. So a car full of us, ladies from the daughters of Penelope, traveled down to Jacksonville to see their shelter. And in their kindness, they gave us all their paperwork, all of their forms, their policies, their procedures, and they gave us enough paperwork to come back and start putting together our shelter.

[10:53] TONIE ANN TORRANS: Do you remember the name of that shelter? Was it like huddle? Not. Was it huddle? No, we'll have to. We'll have to look at that one.

[11:01] KATHRYN COUMANIS: Yeah, I forget it.

[11:03] TONIE ANN TORRANS: But it was in Jacksonville, Florida.

[11:04] KATHRYN COUMANIS: It was Jacksonville, Florida.

[11:06] TONIE ANN TORRANS: And that was the only one, really, in the southeast at the time.

[11:08] KATHRYN COUMANIS: Oh, yeah. The closest one was New York, after that.

[11:12] TONIE ANN TORRANS: Okay.

[11:12] KATHRYN COUMANIS: And then I heard later that Dallas had started one.

[11:15] TONIE ANN TORRANS: Right.

[11:16] KATHRYN COUMANIS: But we were the only ones in the southeast and Mississippi. Other states, you know, used our project as their guidelines, and we were happy to help.

[11:29] TONIE ANN TORRANS: Yeah, that's amazing way to start. And I think some of the early supporters of the community that you were talking about, whether it was the faith community, were so important to laid a solid foundation to kind of where we are now. Can you think of other individuals in the community that made significant contributions or impacts or. I mean, I'm thinking law enforcement. In the early days, it was hard for law enforcement to get involved again, because, like you said, it was a family matter and they didn't want to get involved. There were several police chiefs.

[12:05] KATHRYN COUMANIS: Well, law enforcement was so resistant that when we would do training and we'd invite them, they wouldn't come. They refused to come. They didn't want to get involved. So I thought, well, he will take care of this. So I invited the police chief to be on the board, and he did get on the board. He eventually, you know, most every police chief, eventually served as board president. But by having the police chief support and having him on the board, we were able to enlist their support. But they still, the older guys, just couldn't accept what we were doing. They thought we were a bunch of do gooders. And that was the other thing that when I started the shelter, I knew that the shelters in England in particular functioned just with volunteers. And as a social worker, I knew that this was too important to rely on volunteers. And so I always insisted on having professionally trained staff in my shelter, and then volunteers could do other things, but you can't. You know, it's like asking your best friend to do brain surgery. You know, you just have to have the staff that knows what they're doing.

[13:24] TONIE ANN TORRANS: The right people in the right places. And I also kind of interject, too, that the sheriff, Mobile county sheriff's department was also part of that early support and movement. And I think anytime that you have a diverse board, you look at those that are either movers and shakers in your community or certainly those that you want to make sure are part of the movement as well. So I look back, you know, in our administrative office at Penelope House, we have pictures of board presidents through the years. And you certainly, just by looking at all the pictures, you see the diversity of backgrounds of professional occupations and things like that that I think is so necessary for any nonprofit to succeed kind of thing. And, you know, another thing is the way that our board was set up, I thought that was brilliant. As executive director. Now, I kind of walked into a situation that was already established, but having an advisory board that is made up of individuals who want to be in the loop and want to stay connected and want to support, but may not have the time to devote to being on the administrative board, which is the voting board, which really handles budget, handles hiring and firing the executive director. I mean, really important things to make sure the organization is successful. The way that has been set up, I think certainly has led to longevity, added to people staying involved where they could, depending on what life events were going on, maybe if someone was having a baby, they want to go down to the advisory board and, you know, be available to come back to the administrative board at a later time when they could devote to it.

[15:12] KATHRYN COUMANIS: Yeah. And we don't, and we never, ever required mandatory board rotation. We have people who have stayed on the board 40 years if they wanted to and if they wanted to serve. But this idea of, you know, mandatory rotation after three years, you're off the board. That never served us well.

[15:33] TONIE ANN TORRANS: And that wasn't a problem because we had two boards, because in the administrative board, you may not want a voting board member in that place for 40 years, but yet they were able to go to the advisory board and then pop back up to administrative board whenever they wanted. And the board, you know, votes on who comes up and stays on that board. So I think that's been a very successful way of the board being able to function and stay involved and stay connected to our organization.

[16:00] KATHRYN COUMANIS: And, you know, I love that we just recently organized the past board presidents so that we wouldn't lose their connection to us. And we meet quarterly and they can get as involved as they want to in our activities. They can volunteer for fundraisers, they can come to meetings, they can do whatever they want.

[16:22] TONIE ANN TORRANS: Right. Speaking of fundraisers, you know, how important to the success of Penelope House do you think fundraisers are?

[16:34] KATHRYN COUMANIS: Well, I think they're more important in terms that they give us visibility and the community knows who we are and we're doing not as much, you know, money, but I think our fundraisers, and I love our fundraisers. My favorite is the chocolate festival. And I have to say this. One day I told Tony Ann, I'd like to have a chocolate cook off. And I was just thinking of a bake off. And Tony Ann took that idea and she ran with it. And now we have a chocolate festival that draws in thousands of people. I mean, she's amazing.

[17:13] TONIE ANN TORRANS: Well, that was definitely a team approach. But, yeah, the mobile chocolate festival is a wonderful event where we certainly can reach people, all kinds of people, because they're coming to the festival for chocolate, obviously, to taste what the vendors have to offer and participate in different aspects of it. You know, the decorating cupcakes and decorating aprons and the children's area with jumpies and even a car show outside.

[17:39] KATHRYN COUMANIS: And my chocolate martinis and the chocolate.

[17:41] TONIE ANN TORRANS: Martini tasting booth, of course. But, yeah, it does allow us to many years. We'll get small, little Hershey bars or whatever, and we put our crisis number on the back of it. It's another way of us getting out the crisis number and getting into hands of people who may need it themselves or know someone who needs it. So, yeah, that's definitely a win win event and certainly one that's kind of become a part of the community. I think 2024 will be our 14th mobile chocolate festival.

[18:12] KATHRYN COUMANIS: And, you know, like last year we were doing the chocolate martinis and this man came up to me and he had like a three year old boy in his arms and he says, you know, I was in shelter when I was a little boy, and we wouldn't be alive today if it weren't for you.

[18:28] TONIE ANN TORRANS: Yeah, I think that's so powerful when that happens. And I think because we've been in the community so long, it's not unusual for that to happen for anything. You know, when we were going to collect an item from a local business to donate to a silent auction at the greek fest charity gala that they were holding. When I went to pick it up, the owner had left it. When I picked it up, the lady there had said, thank you so much for your services. I was in Penelope House with my child 20 plus years ago kind of thing. So like I said, I think that really makes the work that we do very meaningful to know that you have made a difference and you continue to make a difference in people's lives.

[19:13] KATHRYN COUMANIS: I remember I used to go read Christmas stories, the first graders, every year. And so the teacher said, don't talk about Penelope House. Just say that you're here to read to them and that you work at Penelope House. So when I sat down and said, I work at Penelope House, at least three children in that class said, oh, yes, I've been there. I love it there.

[19:34] TONIE ANN TORRANS: Oh, wow. Yeah. Well, you know, each year, year, you know, nowadays, each year we shelter between 701,000 victims each year. And sadly, over half of those every year are children. So it's. So I think children are seen as the silent victims a lot. But we try to teach the children when they're in shelter that your parents, those adults make their decisions, but you can make different decisions. You know, it's never okay for anyone to put their hands on you. It's never okay for someone to, you know, push, kick, shove, hurt you. It's not okay. And we hope that we're breaking the cycle talking to children and not only in shelter, but in all of the school systems where we go, the public, the Catholic, the private schools that we go into to teach them that it's not okay and it doesn't happen in every home. And, you know, if it's happening in your home, there's help.

[20:35] KATHRYN COUMANIS: And when we go into the schools, we reach over 20,000 children every year. And that's important. And they have their stories to tell.

[20:44] TONIE ANN TORRANS: So I think Penelope House, while we provide the emergency shelter for those in the current situation, there's a lot of prevention work we're doing, a lot of education we're doing. And I think, you know, in the early days when it was set up, I don't think the amount of programs that we offer now was really a thought back then. You know, we're in the court system helping victims navigate the courts and things like that where, you know, back then, it wasn't even something that you could charge somebody on.

[21:15] KATHRYN COUMANIS: Right. Can I just ask sort of in that vein of, you know, children and the importance of educating kids about this stuff? Do you remember the first time you found out what your mom did for work, or was it always sort of what we talked about in your home or can you talk about that?

[21:35] TONIE ANN TORRANS: Yeah. So when, when Penelope House first started, I was, mom would have a lot of ladies to the house to talk to them about it. And I would, I would listen in, I would. Even a friend. And I actually did, like, skits back then when Animal House was a big movie. We're calling it Penelope House. And we were singing it to the theme of animal House. You know, we were doing Penelope House. So I've been involved with Penelope House. Well, when Penelope House opened, I was one of the first babysitters because I would babysit the children while the adults went to either support group or met with their case manager or I, or things like that. So I was well aware of what my mom did and well aware of the needs of services that Penelope House offered. And as I grew up, you know, I had told my mother I wanted to be a social worker. And as I got my undergraduate degree at the University of Southern Mississippi in Hattiesburg, I got my sociology degree with the emphasis on social work. And then I later went back and got my master's in social work. But in the hospital settings where I worked was part of the domestic violence task forces within the hospital. And even after college, I served on the board. So I kind of had been involved with Penelope House in several capacities.

[23:04] KATHRYN COUMANIS: Well, how about Ashley?

[23:05] TONIE ANN TORRANS: Right? So, you know, we say that domestic violence impacts one in three women. And, you know, when I was a summer before my junior year in high school, one of my best friends was killed in a domestic violence incident. It was her mother's ex husband who had, you know, broke into their home and shot, shot her mother, injured her, but actually shot and killed my friend Ashley. So I think, you know, that certainly had a, a very strong impact in my life. And as I got older, seeing, like I said, when you're looking at children in the home, we talk to them about how to be safe in the home if domestic violence is occurring. And in her situation, I don't think there's any way she could have been safe. He came in there with the purpose. But like I said, domestic violence can be, can be lethal. And unfortunately, children are sometimes, you know, kind of caught in the middle. I think they often use children to manipulate partners as well, because if, you know, do what you want to me, but if you threaten or hurt my child, it's a whole other ballgame. And with October being domestic Violence Awareness month, one of the messages that we put forth is that, you know, domestic violence doesn't just happen to a victim. It impacts the children in the home. It impacts the pets in the home. Family and friends are all impacted, you know, when there's violence in the home.

[24:45] KATHRYN COUMANIS: Right. And, you know, we have males. I know my husband used to volunteer at the shelter, and he would come in and be a real good male, you know, male role model. Role model. But I remember one time when he was there, one of the little boys went up to him and asked him if he was his father. And so my husband cried and left, and it took him a while to go back and do what he did to volunteer.

[25:21] TONIE ANN TORRANS: Right. And, you know, to this day, you know, we have volunteers in the shelter who really work with the children, whether they're doing, you know, help with homework, tutoring kind of things, whether they're going outside and just playing with them, whether it's on the playground or shooting basketball. It's just so they can have some. Some interactions that are positive. And we love when, when men volunteer, so they can see that those male positive role models. And, you know, a lot of times we will speak as if the victim is whimdan a woman because 90% of those we serve are women. But we do serve male victims of domestic violence. And sometimes I think it's harder for men to come forward, whether it's, you know, ego, you know, you know, how could. How could you let your woman do this to you? That kind of macho kind of attitude. But I think a lot of time, too, there's shame, and that's not just with male victims. It's female victims, too, that, you know, someone usually has told them that this relationship is toxic or not healthy, but yet they feel like, you know, either their partner will change or, you know, maybe things will be better later. And there's an element of shame when you realize, you know, they all told you that this probably wouldn't work, but you still did it kind of thing, or when it went. Went through with it.

[26:46] KATHRYN COUMANIS: But, you know, when we opened our first shelter, the very first person to come for us for help was a man. He lived two doors down, and his wife had stabbed him with a butter knife, and he wanted to come in, but we weren't even open yet.

[27:03] TONIE ANN TORRANS: Right. So. And it does happen, and we're seeing more and more of that. And so we've talked a good bit about the history of the shelter, and kind of where we are now is really quite amazing, wouldn't you think, mom, how far we've come?

[27:18] KATHRYN COUMANIS: Yeah. From $27 to. What's your budget now? Two and a half million.

[27:24] TONIE ANN TORRANS: Right. Right. And, you know, in the first shelter, you know, like mom said, we used houses and kind of converted them or made them work to be a shelter. We moved in our current location in 1990, and really, it was the first shelter that was designed by an architect. I mean, was well thought out, well planned to actually be a shelter. And it was built like a sideways u. So if we ever had funding in the future, it would be easy to expand the shelter. And lo and behold, when Covid came, when our census was high, we might would put four single women into the room together or maybe, you know, an adult with a three year old son. With an adult with a five year old son. You just had to kind of make room because we never want to turn anyone away. And with COVID we had to move to one, you know, one family unit per room. So that meant, you know, either you had a private room or it was just you and your children in the room. So that allowed us to apply for CaRes act funds where we were able to expand the shelter. And so on one side of the U, where we had our court advocates, we had offices. There, we were able to add four offices and two more meeting rooms, interview rooms, like a small conference room. So that way we could social distance, we could, you know, do all the things that we needed to do to be safe.

[28:52] KATHRYN COUMANIS: And how many total bedrooms do we have now?

[28:55] TONIE ANN TORRANS: Right. So we added seven more bedrooms, and two of the bedrooms have a bathroom inside of the room. So therefore, if you're on quarantine, whether it's Covid or the flu or, you know, any other, you know, strep throat, anything else like that, you're able to quarantine in your room and not spread your germs and hopefully keep things as contained as possible. So that's been very helpful for us doing that. We also have, you know, full ada bathrooms and things like that. So the COVID funds certainly have allowed us to expand and maybe not shelter more people, but spread out and keep everyone safe where they feel safe, too.

[29:41] KATHRYN COUMANIS: So how many total bedrooms now? Is it 15?

[29:46] TONIE ANN TORRANS: No, it's, I think 1818. Well, 18 total. But we never. We have lots of cots and things like that, and we have tv rooms that are called the kind of spillover rooms. If the census was high, we would have space for everyone. And another good thing that came out of that is a lot of times with victims of domestic violence are scared to leave a relationship because what might happen to their pet. You have a dog. I have a dog. They're like family. And we've been able to shelter people with their pets, and we even had a macaw come in shelter before, so it's been interesting to do that. So I think it's important, you know, that you keep the family intact as much as possible so they're there for.

[30:31] KATHRYN COUMANIS: Each other and that we never turn anyone away, ever. Right.

[30:34] TONIE ANN TORRANS: The census is high. We always will say, look, come in. We'll put you on a cot in the boardroom, and then tomorrow we'll look at either another shelter or we'll work something out. So I think that's important, and I think our time is kind of winding down. So is there anything that you want to make sure that we include in this moment?

[30:54] KATHRYN COUMANIS: No, I just want to say that I've always been amazed at the community support that we have, that the love and attention that our staff give to the clients. They give them respect, but the leadership that they need to try to achieve their goals.

[31:14] TONIE ANN TORRANS: Yeah. And I would add that, you know, the staff is what provides what is needed, though, those who seek our services, and they do it well.

[31:25] KATHRYN COUMANIS: We have how many total staff now?

[31:27] TONIE ANN TORRANS: We have 53 on staff. And, you know, we're staffed like a hospital where you have a day shift, an evening shift, and the overnight shift. And I always say the overnight shift works. They don't sleep. They're watching video camera. They're taking crisis calls, paperwork, walking the hallways to make sure our clients are okay. You know, one of the things that we have, too, is we have kitchen staff that provide meals. So they cook the meals and clients sign up for meals, but we get comments all the time, like, someone's fried chicken was just like, their grandmother made it. And it's comfort, you know, it's almost comfort food. And so.

[32:00] KATHRYN COUMANIS: Well, the clients love the kitchen staff, too.

[32:03] TONIE ANN TORRANS: Yeah, they do.

[32:03] KATHRYN COUMANIS: They like their mothers.

[32:05] TONIE ANN TORRANS: Right? Everyone tries to accommodate. When anyone has a birthday, we make sure we celebrate it in shelter. And we don't just celebrate it. If you're a little boy and you like Spider man, then we're getting you a Spider man themed birthday. We want kids to remember the good or the fun or the awesome fire truck they got for their birthday, not why they came to shelter. And I think that's very something that all of our staff really, really puts forth. The extra effort to make sure that children do feel special when they're in shelter sometimes.

[32:38] KATHRYN COUMANIS: These children have never had a birthday party until they came to us. So, you know, we're teaching them.

[32:46] TONIE ANN TORRANS: Yeah, yeah, well, there are a lot of wonderful stories. I mean, one of my favorites was when we had. We had happy meals. One of the board members sponsored us getting happy meals, and we got them and brought them in the shelter, and they did happy meals in a movie, and there were several children there who had never had a happy meal from McDonald's kind of thing. And you think about in your own life how many times you've gone through a drive through. So, you know, like I said, to bring them a sense of normalcy and expose them to things that maybe they haven't been exposed to. And I. That the motto peace on earth begins at home. We try to teach it, preach it in every way that we can.

[33:21] KATHRYN COUMANIS: And sometimes wonderful things happen to shelter clients. I remember the client that won a house while she was in shelter. She had signed up for a drawing, I think, at one of the casinos, but she actually won a house, and she moved into that house when she left shelter, and we helped her furnish it and. Yeah, it's such a sweet story.

[33:42] TONIE ANN TORRANS: Yeah. There's a lot of ugliness that we see when people come to shelter. You know, how could someone you loved hurt you like that? Pull your hair out, all those terrible things. But then we get to see the flip side of those in the community who care, and then the success stories, like moving to transitional living or getting a new job or whatever their goals were, having been accomplished and us having a part in that is pretty awesome.

[34:06] KATHRYN COUMANIS: Yep. Do you ever want to say any final things to each other, just to close out the conversation? I want to thank Tony Ann for picking up the mantle and for the wonderful job she's done. I'm so proud of you.

[34:23] TONIE ANN TORRANS: Well, thank you.

[34:24] KATHRYN COUMANIS: I love you so much.

[34:25] TONIE ANN TORRANS: Thank you, mom. You know, and, you know, I look at my mom, too, as a visionary, as someone who had, when she saw the need, stepped up and did the need and didn't do it by herself, she dragged her friends in with her and made the ride much more bearable and actually enjoyable. And some of those good friends that she has, I'm friends with their children, and we, you know, are continuing. So thank you for setting the great example and you know how to take care of others.

[34:55] KATHRYN COUMANIS: I love you.

[34:55] TONIE ANN TORRANS: Love you, too, mom.

[34:57] KATHRYN COUMANIS: Wonderful. We'll just do 10 seconds of silence now, and then I'll stop the recording. It's.