Kathy Gambles and David Joy

[00:01] DAVID JOY: I am David Joy. I am 38 years old. Today is Friday, September 30, 2022. I'm in Ogden, Utah, and I'm here with Kathy Gambles, who is my friend, who is our bonus grandma for our family, and who was my librarian from kindergarten through 8th grade.

[00:26] KATHY GAMBLES: And I am Kathy Gambles and I'm 75 years old. And today is Friday, September 30, 2022. We're in Ogden, Utah, and I am here with David Joy, who has been a joy in my life since we first met when he was in kindergarten. And we have evolved from teacher and student to peers with an incredible relationship.

[00:59] DAVID JOY: Definitely. So I'm really excited that you were willing to do this. And like I've told you, ever since I heard what Storycorps is, I wanted to do this. So I really appreciate you doing this. And I kind of was thinking we could just talk about the things we've learned from each other, because I know I've learned a lot from you and then just kind of go from there.

[01:23] KATHY GAMBLES: That sounds great.

[01:24] DAVID JOY: So the first thing that I think that stands out to me, that I've learned from you, is how to be, or how to actively aim to be positive and happy, but also be okay with and honor your feelings when you're not. And so that's, as I've told people about you and I've talked about you, that's one of the things that stood out to me, is to just how positive and happy you are and you try to be, but also being okay with not being happy and not being positive and honoring and working through those feelings, and especially with tearwater tea from owl at home.

[02:04] KATHY GAMBLES: Great. Okay. Well, thank you. I am grateful for a chance to share that, because it really is what fuels my life. And my mantra of many, many years has been harmony and opposites. I'm in charge of celebrations, and that has helped me to take what's hard and doesn't look good and flip it over to see what is there. That's okay, too. And in my head, I've liked the idea of thinking of two different fires. One that is nurturing and warm and comforting, and one that you just push away from. And it's all the hard stuff and the dark stuff, and you choose which fires you fuel. And the fewer twigs you put on the negative and the more logs you can put on the one that is warmth and gives comfort, it really helps. The thing that's important is not pretending that the hard stuff isn't there or that it doesn't matter. It's honoring that, but honoring it with a twig most of the time, unless it really needs all of the other. But the balancing of the harmony in opposites.

[03:32] DAVID JOY: Oh, absolutely. That reminds me of, I remember when we found out Cadence, my oldest, was going to have to live at Shriners Hospital for a month in Halo traction. I remember you were one of the first people I called because I knew that you would have some way of comforting us when we had just gotten some of the hardest news of our lives. And I remember the harmony and the opposites I'm in charge of celebrations was one of the things that you really made sure that I kept in mind, and that really helped us through that time. And it turned out to be an amazingly positive experience. I mean, it had its trials with it, but overall, it was just an unbelievably wonderful experience. And I think it's largely because of keeping that in mind. So thank you.

[04:27] KATHY GAMBLES: Well, as you say that, and I just think of what a remarkable job you and Leanne do in keeping windows of fresh air and sunshine to be coming in when you're dealing with very, very, very challenging things. And you do that amazingly well.

[04:54] DAVID JOY: Thank you.

[04:54] KATHY GAMBLES: And when it feels too tough, what do you do?

[05:04] DAVID JOY: I would have to say we lean on people like you, and I lean on leanne a lot when things are tough, and I think just honor the tough for a second and then power through and focus on the positive parts of it. And sometimes it's just powering through and just not focusing on it.

[05:28] KATHY GAMBLES: My experience with your family, that way you generate an okayness with not okay things in a way that has healthy, vibrant, happy kids that could be very different from that, from very challenging experiences that they have had. And I really honor that you do a remarkable job of keeping balance with really hard stuff and making sure some fun stuff happens, too.

[06:06] DAVID JOY: Thank you. We try, and they really are. They're wonderful girls, and they make it easy for us. So we lucked out. The question, the first question. So, with your mom being a librarian, was there ever a book that she recommended that you really didn't want to read, but we're really glad you did when you had read it.

[06:34] KATHY GAMBLES: What a good question. I would have to say both my mom and dad were real readers, and there were fiction and mysteries on mom's side of the bed, and there were everything about conservation and science and trails and Native Americans on that side. So I felt comfortable in reading. But I would say one book that my mom had recommended was one that she read when she was a girl, and it was girl of the Limberlost. By Jean Stratton Porter. And it's a beautiful book, and I enjoyed reading it, but I really hadn't identified why it was so meaningful until years later. And I really think it was because it was a book that was a favorite of hers, and it made me feel a connection with her. At about 13 years old, when I didn't feel a lot of connection with her at home, a lot of kids and mom was dealing with a lot of hard stuff. My little brother had died, and it was a hard time, but it was an okay time. But I didn't really feel a connection with her. And I really feel that the warmth from that book connected us in a way that wouldn't have done otherwise.

[08:10] DAVID JOY: It's interesting. I haven't read that. Now I add another one to my list.

[08:14] KATHY GAMBLES: It's a good one. I mean, it's one of those ones that you can look back to after 40 years and say, oh, writing style is a lot different, but I like it. I'm glad I've come back to it. You dream big and you have a tenacity to pursue your dreams with amazing success. When in life have you felt most alone that has helped you to pursue your dreams?

[08:58] DAVID JOY: Oh, man, I. Especially in the pursuit of my dreams, I've always had really good support, and so I don't know. I don't know that I've ever felt alone when pursuing my dreams. Just. And I don't know. That sounds almost corny, but when I was younger and my dad was healthy and my mom was doing all right, they were a huge support, and they supported everything. When I got interested in space and astronomy, my dad bought a really cheap telescope from a pawn shop just because I was interested. And, I mean, we had that for the longest time, even though it really wasn't very good on up to. There were some times, working on my dissertation and working on my degree, that it got hard and I felt alone at the university, but I always knew that I had Leanne and the girls in you and. And a few other people to lean on and get through those really tough times because there were some really awful times while trying to get that stinking degree. But I don't know, I always felt like I had support. So I don't know. I don't know that there was ever a time that I've ever really felt alone. I've been really blessed that way, you.

[10:28] KATHY GAMBLES: Know, I really honor that. And what a celebration to live your life feeling the support of those around you.

[10:38] DAVID JOY: Oh, yeah.

[10:39] KATHY GAMBLES: Congratulations.

[10:41] DAVID JOY: It's not something I take for granted, because I know that's not how everybody has it. One of the things that I've always admired about you is just how active and contributing you are to our community. You're always working on something to make our community better and to improve things that you see as a problem. And with that, I've always admired and kind of thought it was funny that it doesn't matter where we go. Somebody knows you. We've been so many different places, and there's always somebody that comes up and says, hi. And I've always admired that you give them your full attention and talk to them for a moment and then come back to us. But I've always admired how active and contributing you are to our little world around here.

[11:44] KATHY GAMBLES: Thank you.

[11:45] DAVID JOY: Oh, absolutely. It's something that I look to try and live up to. And it's interesting because I've noticed, even with Shelby and how much she works for, especially when we were doing the different things for the library last year, that your example is stretching out now across generations.

[12:07] KATHY GAMBLES: Well, I think it's important to share Shelby tell. Share of what she was doing last year, because it's remarkable, and it's the kind of stuff that giantly makes a difference, that we can go forward successfully, because young people have the courage to voice.

[12:26] DAVID JOY: And that Shelby, it really was incredible. So, last year, you introduced us to the makerspace here at the library, and that's exactly what Shelby lives for. And so she started wanting to create so many things and use the makerspace, and it came down to. There was. The city council was looking to raise taxes for support in support of the library, and you suggested that Shelby speak at the city council meeting, and so she wrote her speech, and I kind of. I really didn't even have to clean it up that much. It was. I think I changed maybe two words. And it was interesting because the public comment part started, and there were a few people that were really upset about raising taxes, even for the library. And then Shelby got up and spoke, and it completely changed the feel of the meeting. And we've heard that from so many people that from that point on, you just couldn't argue with her because she was so well spoken and her comment was so well written. And even when I spoke a few minutes after her, I felt that my words were inferior to hers because it just. It really changed the whole tone and feeling of it, and it turned out to be really successful.

[13:57] KATHY GAMBLES: And was the success that we got the money needed with the tax increase that wouldn't have happened with not that shift. And I really honor that you have modeled for your family from the very first about being actively involved. So I would say, as you see that in me, it's because you do that so well. And it kind of brings me to something else that. That I've learned from you, and that is the way that you fuel opportunities for ongoing connection with people that are meaningful in your life. The very fact that we have the relationship we have would not be here if you didn't start actively pursuing a lot of years ago and saying, will you read Polar express to my kids? And you do that with so many people and provide such opportunities, what helps you to have the courage to be able to connect with people meaningful to you?

[15:10] DAVID JOY: I would say it really, it almost doesn't take that much courage for me because the benefits so far outweigh the costs, and I've been able to stay connected with or reconnect or even start connections with some amazing people. And that, in and of itself, that human connection and the benefits you get from that, and especially from a variety of people, so far outweigh the nervousness that I almost don't even think about it anymore, just because there's just so many incredible people, and I like to learn from them, I like to hear from them and experience different things. And especially with you, it was always. I don't know, I always enjoyed going into the library and having you there, and it was always such a positive and genuinely happy interaction. And so when I found out you were moving up to Highland Junior high with us, I couldn't have been more happy because I was nervous about junior high, but I knew I would have that little space. And I remember going in there and you talking about how sparse the library was and how we. We needed to fix it and in there with. With Jeff and all the time after school and stuff, but I don't know, it was always just a safe place. But then the idea of having to read polar express to the girls, it was such a cherished thing for me as a kid to know that come Christmas time, we were going to sit on the floor and you were going to sit in your rocking chair in the library and turn on the music. And just the environment and the atmosphere that you create with that, the way that you almost perform it is just amazing. So to have my girls be able to experience that has been amazing and something we always look forward to now.

[17:12] KATHY GAMBLES: Well, thank you. Well, before we leave, looking at you and pursuing things, good intentions and wanting to do that is there, but you really follow through. You make it happen. And I think to really honor and respect that within yourself is very important. And when you were worried going to junior high, so was I. I'm really not sure I could have made it through that first year if it wasn't for you guys being there and coming in and doing. And you said that you always felt so. And, you know, it's an incredible gift to be a teacher librarian because there are so many opportunities in so many ways to work with the same kids from kindergarten through 5th, 6th grade, whatever is there. But for me, my most important intentions were to have a safe place where kids could feel safe. And sometimes that was from other kids and sometimes it was from teachers. And that was very, very important. I'd say that probably my two top shots that I was going for was to see that kids who could read were kids who did read and to be actively involved in just fueling good words to be a part of life and really to provide the opportunity to come anytime and feel like you are an independent learner, you're empowered. And also, I feel the real responsibility to model for teachers positive discipline and to. I mean, I. I felt like I taught in a glass bowl. And so my interaction with kids I loved. I also felt a real responsibility to be modeling for teachers positive ways in working with kids.

[19:30] DAVID JOY: Well, I think you did a great job with that. I do have to tell you. I don't know that I've ever told you one of my biggest fears to going to Highland, but I think you'll get a kick out of it. I got my schedule. I was really excited for junior high until I got my schedule and saw PE was going to be taught by a woman and I thought I was going to have to change in front of her. And I thought, I cannot get naked in front of this lady 6th grader. I was horrified that she was going to be in the locker room and my awkward little body was going to be on full display for her. I was relieved when I found out she would be in the other room when we changed.

[20:10] KATHY GAMBLES: That's such a perfect story. And, you know, I think that that is so real, the scary stories that we tell in our heads and when you can finally be ready to laugh about it instead of crying about it is a good thing.

[20:26] DAVID JOY: Oh, yeah. But as you were talking about library and the environment, I think you did a phenomenal job at creating that environment because it was always a warm and inviting place. And it was incredible how quickly you transformed the library at Highland into that. But it made me one of the questions that I thought, because I know what it felt like for me to go into that library. But what did the library feel like for you, especially the one at horse man?

[21:03] KATHY GAMBLES: The library felt like an enchanted place where kids could think and be and do anything they wanted to do and to be able to share opportunities to find things, to do do things, and really to help courage to grow in different ways. I loved being in a position to really choose what we did. Veterans Day was critically important to me, that we spent time in talking and sharing and doing, and for a lot of reasons, but because teachers are very busy with the other things. And I loved having the opportunity to bring insight and awareness to some things that, for me, are very important, but that don't have time. And so I loved that the library was a place of possibilities to see good things happen, and loved the chances to give kids the opportunities, you know, to do things. I don't know if you remember, but when there would be somebody come to the school, we would have the lunch for them in the library, and to have the kids be able to make the place mats and set the table and learn how to set a table and the little salt and peppers to put around. I mean, I just love being able to provide opportunity for learning in a whole bunch of different ways. And it was a very therapeutic place for me when my life was really challenging, and to be embraced with just that genuine love and connection that is there was very nurturing and helping me through some hard stuff.

[23:06] DAVID JOY: Oh, I can only imagine. I had forgotten about the lunches and setting up for those. I remember one Halloween, there's always the pumpkin carving contest, and I waited till the last minute, but wanted to participate. And so I took a small pumpkin and cut electrical tape for the face and put it on there and brought it in to. You just thought it was the greatest thing in the world, and I thought I did this this morning.

[23:36] KATHY GAMBLES: Well, I don't know if you remember the one, and I don't remember who brought it, but it had a part of a deer hide that had come home that weekend that had not been cleaned, and it was gross and stinky and opening up all the windows until we could do something about it. But with the pumpkin contest, the certificates for those were created by a former student who had gone to Horace Mann and went now was down at Ben Lomond, but would just still walk up to the library and do things in that. And he created the certificate, and I think. I don't think I loved the connections that would go on after kids had gone. And I remember you, and I think you rode your bike down to Highland to bring me an invitation to your Eagle Scout program. To have those connections that didn't end when the school year ended was a real bonus for me.

[24:40] DAVID JOY: Oh, yeah. It was good to know that you were always there, too. Like, we just always knew you were going to be there. So that meant a lot. I was thinking, too, about creating opportunities for kids in the library. I remember you telling me. I remember telling you that I wanted to raise a dragon. And you went over and got a copy of Jeremy Thatcher, and I read it and read it, and then it was in the. It was in the scholastic book fair and I wanted it, and I don't remember the reason my parents said no. And you ended up buying it and saying, well, if you come work for a week in the library, I'll let you have it. And I think I made it one day, and you're like, I can't wait, and just gave it to me. I remember running home with my copy of Jeremy Thatcher, and I still have it just sitting with all of the books that are important on my bookshelf. So thank you for helping me find a way to raise a dragon.

[25:36] KATHY GAMBLES: Well, I would say that you have done a remarkable in your life of raising all kind of enchantment. And the gift that you provide the kids that you teach and work with is remarkable. And making happy things happen when it's not the way that you have done with your kids at school, but especially with COVID and starting out and everything online and what you were doing daily, I can't imagine how very challenging your world was with everything but the extra effort. Tell a little bit about that.

[26:22] DAVID JOY: That was an interesting time. But when everything shut down, it was awful. But it was also a blessing because I was so far behind in writing my dissertation that I didn't think I was going to graduate on on time. But when everything shut down, I had plenty of time to write. But I also knew that it was a scary and unsure time for everyone. And I knew kids were not going to want to log on and all of a sudden to shift from in person to logging on and engaging and learning. But it was so important, and there was still so much left the year that I decided to film an entertaining video for every day. And I stuck to the 15 minutes and I would come up with just a simple assignment, and sometimes it was just going outside and reading poetry just to kind of get our wits about us again. But I would try and film some sort of an interesting video. And so, like the day of the earthquake, I wore my gladiator helmet the entire time, but didn't address the fact that it was on. I wrote a refrigerator box down the stairs while teaching my lesson one time. Just anything interesting to try and keep them engaged and wanting to come back and hopefully learn one quick little thing. But I think my favorite was the end. When I had them, I always have them evaluate my class and my teaching, and I had them do that, and I made up bunch of really quite cruel things that they never would have said. But apparently you guys didn't like this. And I'm sorry. I thought this was going well, but these are really kind of harsh. Some of you were downright mean. But I told them in the instructions for the video to make sure they watched clear to the end, and I could immediately tell the kids who didn't, because at the end, I'm like, I'm just kidding. And I would get some panicked emails and, like, these really heartfelt. I felt bad that I made him so upset. I was like, no, no, no. You didn't watch the whole video. And a few minutes later, I'd get an email, dang it, I fell for it. That was fun. But I figured if I was bored doing it, they were going to be bored doing it, too. So I tried to entertain myself while entertaining them.

[28:35] KATHY GAMBLES: Well, you did a great job of that. But the many opportunities, I think, of the time in having the moon rocks there and what work you had to go through to be able to provide that opportunity. Talk about that a little bit.

[28:55] DAVID JOY: So NASA is incredibly generous, and they will loan moonrock samples from the different Apollo missions to teachers, and you have to do a certification, and then you have to prepare your classroom in the school for it. But it. I don't know. It never seems like that much, because the fact to let kids be able to hold something so invaluable and be able to talk about what it took to get to the moon and what it took to bring those samples back, and then the, the amazing miracle of Apollo 13 and talking about just how everybody kind of worked together to save those guys, I don't know, it just, it's always been something that those types of things are a little bit of effort, but the payoff is so much.

[29:49] KATHY GAMBLES: So worth it, but it's a lot of effort. You had to certify, you had to have a safe, you had to have them in your, had to have them with you at all times. I mean, I you went to a lot of effort, and I think that that is one of the remarkable gifts that you have, is always making sure that right stuff happens, even when it's really nuisance y and challenging.

[30:18] DAVID JOY: There is a lot of anxiety when they're in my possession just because I don't want anything to happen to them. But I'm always glad to send them off, but I'm always glad that they were there.

[30:28] KATHY GAMBLES: Yes.

[30:38] DAVID JOY: Oh, another thing. Well, let me look at the questions. One thing that I've been wondering. So I know I talk to anybody who's ever met you, and they always have really fond memories and stuff of you, but I'd like to know how you'd like to be remembered by people.

[31:10] KATHY GAMBLES: I would like to be remembered as somebody who's fun to be with. I would like to be remembered as someone who has reverence and respect and treats others with loving kindness. And I hope that the message gets through for people to connect within and know how much they matter and what a difference they make. And if I had one statement that I would make, it would be, loosen your grip on opinion and expand your horizons.

[32:19] DAVID JOY: Oh, wow.

[32:21] KATHY GAMBLES: So I will ask you the same.

[32:23] DAVID JOY: Well, first I have to say I think you're wildly successful at all of those things.

[32:29] KATHY GAMBLES: Thank you.

[32:30] DAVID JOY: Um. Oh, man. I would like to be remembered as somebody who is there for somebody. I think, first of all, I want to be remembered as somebody who loved their kids and would do anything for them, because being a father is probably the most important thing in my life. I would like. Hopefully Leanne remembers me as somebody that was always there for her and support and somebody who always made her laugh. But beyond family, I want to be somebody who was there for people when they needed them to be a helper. I always admired the men in my family, were always willing to drop everything and go and help people whenever they needed it. And it never seemed like an inconvenience, ever. Even if we knew it was. They never made it seem like it was. And I'd like to be remembered as a teacher that made especially middle school a little less terrible, because it really is a hard time in life. And if I can have a spot that kids can come in and feel welcome and cared for by at least one person, then hopefully I can be that for them.

[33:53] KATHY GAMBLES: You live that way. You really do. And as you were talking, it made me think of your father and what a remarkable man in the way that he was so generous in assisting and helping others. I really honor and congratulate you on taking some remarkable characteristics of a very fine man and expanding on them in a very unique David way.

[34:40] DAVID JOY: Thank you. I have to thank you for helping us this when we lost him, because it was a hard thing in a lot of ways. Not just losing him, but not having the relationship that we had hoped for. But you made it really, you made it okay and made it doable, which reminds me of something that Leanne said I need to make sure that I bring up, and that's. I've learned that bubbles make everything better. And so I remember I still have the box that you brought full of bubbles for everybody, because it really does. We've used them for so many different hard things. And so that was one thing that Leanne brought up that we've learned from you. It's bubbles always make tough situations better.

[35:30] KATHY GAMBLES: I'm glad that she did, because I love being able to say a few words about bubbles, because in my world, when it was a really, really, really hard time and it meant you put a mask on and go through things, but then you need some time just to be as sad as you need to. But it's too scary, because if you start being as sad as you are, you won't be able. Able to come out of it. Bubbles are the safety valve that, for me, I would go home from school and I'd set the minute winder for sometimes 45 minutes, sometimes not that long, and just be as sad as I need it to be, and then blow bubbles, and they just shift the energy and bring you back to a place that you can make choice, but you can't. I don't think my experience is you can't not smile when you see bubbles. And so, yeah, I'm glad that we both have learned that and know that there's never a time not to. And it's always when I give bubbles to somebody and I say, oh, my grandkids really going to like this? And I think, no, these are for you. You're the one that needs the bubbles.

[36:59] DAVID JOY: I have to say, before I spoke at his funeral, I used some bubbles to just. I knew it was going to be one of the hardest things I'd ever done. And blowing bubbles made it so that I could get up there, and I almost made it through all the way, being able to speak intelligibly, but there at the end, I wasn't so good at it.

[37:23] KATHY GAMBLES: And that's a part of it that's important, too.

[37:26] DAVID JOY: Yeah, but I joked with Leanne that you keep the companies that make those little bubbles. They do at weddings and business, because you always seem to have so many that you can give out at a moment's notice. Oh. What are you most proud of?

[37:54] KATHY GAMBLES: Hmm. I think I am most proud that I'm a learner. I've had a lot of birthdays, but I love being actively involved with life. And I like that I'm learning to use Google Docs and that digitally, I haven't expired. And I like that I am actively involved in good things happening, and if it's just for me, that's okay. But I like. I'm very proud that it took me more than 60 years to get there, but I'm very proud that I like me and that I spend time in nurturing a kindness for myself as well as others. So, yeah, I'm. I'm proud that I'm still vibrantly alive and learning and looking for more.

[39:07] DAVID JOY: You really are. It really is incredible. It's a good example because you are always learning something. There's always. I don't think there's ever been a time that I haven't talked to you that you haven't learned something new or very least a new book recommendation.

[39:23] KATHY GAMBLES: Well, and it's really nice to have somebody to share it with, and you always listen, and I think that there's many times that I go away and then I've got somebody new to be looking up and learning that you have shared with me. But I really like that we have an active interchange.

[39:42] DAVID JOY: Oh, absolutely.

[39:47] KATHY GAMBLES: So I would ask you if you could talk to a younger you, what would you say?

[39:59] DAVID JOY: Oh, man. Probably to not stress out so much that it was going to turn out all right. That all the things that I really hoped would happen did end up happening. From finding somebody that I couldn't get enough of in Leanne to getting a PhD. I knew really young I wanted one. I didn't know and what, but I probably did not get so hung up on being stressed out that stuff wouldn't work out. What about you?

[40:43] KATHY GAMBLES: Hmm? To a younger Kathy, I would say, know that you really do make a difference. Know that you really do matter and that you do belong and that your job's not being there for everybody else. Relaxed and it's okay to be naughty.

[41:15] DAVID JOY: I don't know that I had a problem with that one.

[41:18] KATHY GAMBLES: Well, I think it's just feeling more comfortable that you've got permission and not always needing to be sneaky about the naughtiness. That's funny.

[41:34] DAVID JOY: Just quickly want to tell you that. I don't think it can be overstated. The difference that you make and that you have made in the lives of so many people. So I would agree. You definitely make a difference.

[41:48] KATHY GAMBLES: Thank you. Thank you. And I, in thinking about having this time, in thinking, we really connect because we both really invite a feeling of magic and enchantment. Just accept that that's a part of life. And we both kind of have a comfort with where's the rule that says it has to be that way? And being able to just kind of go in what feels right and creating good things but fun things. And I giantly celebrate the gift that you and your family are in my life.

[42:37] DAVID JOY: Thank you. We feel the same about.