Kendon Johnson and Karyn Alexis

[00:03] KENDON JOHNSON: My name is Kendon Johnson. I am 55 years old. Today's date is October 23rd, 2024. I'm at the CSU 1 Arsenal Place in Columbus, Georgia and I'm here with Karen, my partner in one small step.

[00:22] KAREN ALEXIS: My name is Karen Alexis. I am 44 years old. The date is 10-23-2024. I am at the Columbus State University campus and I am here with Kendon, my one small step conversation partner.

[00:40] KENDON JOHNSON: Karen's bio reads, I am the oldest of my mom's five kids, grew up with stepbrothers and a sister. My youngest brother committed suicide like eight years ago. I have lived a very exciting life so far but am far more laid back than I used to be. I am 44 years old and currently married. I'm a full time caregiver of my husband who had a stroke last year. I recently relocated to Alabama from Ohio. I am self employed contractor by trade.

[01:18] KAREN ALEXIS: Kendon's bio reads, I am a middle aged white man. I am a professional who works in public education, specifically school counseling. I am a Christian who practices the traditions of the Episcopal church. I am from the South.

[01:39] KENDON JOHNSON: Karen, why did you want to participate in one small study conversation?

[01:45] KAREN ALEXIS: Because I love talking to people and hearing other people's like insight on different things and sharing my insight because that is how I feel that we make a big difference in the world. And what about you? Why did you decide to participate?

[02:04] KENDON JOHNSON: A lot of the same reason. I, I think it's a fascinating program and I love to hear different perspectives. Different perspectives help me with my perspective and it is how we make it a better world.

[02:21] KAREN ALEXIS: Yes. Can you tell me a little bit about your upbringing?

[02:29] KENDON JOHNSON: I grew up in Louisiana. My dad was an educator in high school and college and my mom was a real letter carrier. They were both very typical middle class upbringing and wonderful loving parents. Like any family, it wasn't always roses. But I learned a lot from them about who I am today and a lot of that has shaped my life. So it was very typical. It was very, it was a wonderful childhood. And how about you? What was your upbringing like?

[03:15] KAREN ALEXIS: Very eventful. I was born in Cheyenne, Wyoming. My mother was in an Air Force. She was having an affair with a married man. And here I, you know, I popped up out of that. She came home to Cleveland, Ohio after, after I was about a year old and then my mom got kind of, she was about like 18, 19 when she had me and she got caught up in drugs and alcohol. I was born in 1980, so that was like crack and that type of stuff going on. I don't know. I was a kid, but she got caught up in that. My grandmother, who was a registered nurse, she adopted me at the age of five. So I lived with my grandmother and my great grandmother. So that was fun. So my great grandmother was my best friend growing up, like my big sister and everything. My mom got clean and sober when I was 15, and all of my other siblings always stayed with her. I was the one that stayed separately. And I ran away at 15 to New York for about almost a year. And that was eventful after that. I've always had, like, an interest in music, so that kind of just guided a lot of aspects of my life. So behind that, that's my upbringing somewhat. So it was like. It was diverse. When I would go speak, spend time with my mom, it was like living in. It was the inner city projects in Cleveland, Ohio, but when I would be with my grandmother, suburbs. So I had basically both experiences.

[05:02] KENDON JOHNSON: That's incredible. Awesome. Well, I think you've answered the other part of that question is have you always lived in this area? And I'm more interested in hearing about if you don't mind living intergenerationally with your grandmother and your great grandmother and how your great grandmother was your best friend growing up like a big sister. That sounds incredibly rich.

[05:34] KAREN ALEXIS: It was a wonderful experience. We had twin beds, so she went to bed, I went to bed. She watched Hill Street Blues. I watched it too, the soap operas. But she passed along a lot of wisdom and knowledge in which I still like, because I was the oldest grandchild too. So with my current position in the family, it's allowed me to kind of keep those traditions alive. And like, some of the wisdom I, you know, I would tell them my grandmother, My great grandmother's name was Maybelle, and we called her Maimay. So I was like, well, you know, as maimay would say, such and such. So it's kind of keeping. Keeping her alive and their generation. So it was fun. Back. Back when I was younger, it was a TV show called Double Dare. And are you familiar with double.

[06:27] KENDON JOHNSON: Yeah.

[06:27] KAREN ALEXIS: Okay. So I had the whole kit and my grandmother, unfortunately, I felt like I was neglected in a sense, because she would work and just give me whatever I wanted. And I'm like, dude, who am I supposed to play with? Oh, May. May, you know, So I would. She would work her puzzle, like her little puzzle book, and I would ask her to play, and she wouldn't. She would just ignore me. So I strapped the little thing on her head and set the timer and I'm trying to hurry up and throw the little foam balls in there. And she's not participating. So I go wet the balls and I said, okay, maybe if a couple of them hit her face, she'll participate. So she always was still, keep in mind she was 75 years old, so she would still, you know, make sure I had that experience. So Christmases was always wonderful, you know, and great. I enjoy decorating and baking and so yeah, I'm like an old lady in a 44 year old woman's body basically.

[07:28] KENDON JOHNSON: That's awesome.

[07:29] KAREN ALEXIS: Thank you. Did you grow up with your grandparents or.

[07:33] KENDON JOHNSON: No, we lived out different towns than my grandparents did. And I, like I said, I grew up in Louisiana in the south and went to college there. Finished moved to Houston. I've always kind of been a product of the south and I did work overseas for quite a few years. And I came back, started was a year in Atlanta and then I've come to Columbus. I love it here. I was very close to one of my grandmothers in Louisiana because I got to see her a lot more often. My other grandmother, she's the sweetest lady in the world, but she was in Oklahoma, so I only saw her a couple of times a year. But she was very sweet. And I remember even at a young age she was starting to have physical problems, things like that. So I do remember. It's interesting, my father is not in the best of health. He has advanced Parkinson's and currently lives in a home, mainly for safety reasons. It's pretty advanced, but watching my dad and how my dad would take care of his mom whenever we were there and how my dad would and other elderly people and the respect he showed for elderly people and I'll never get. As a kid, along with their church, they would oftentimes bring us to old folks homes, as we called them, and visit the old people and sing for them and all that. And I hated going to those. It smelled bad. It was just kind of a pain. I just remember my brothers and sisters and I like, oh, okay, we gotta do this again. But I look now I value every minute I can go see my dad and I'm 55 and I'm blessed because he's still alive. And even though I would like to be visiting him in other ways, I am blessed. But I wouldn't trade him modeling that for me for anything in the world because he, by modeling, by showing me how he was doing it. I didn't realize the lifelong lesson I was getting when I Was a kid.

[10:00] KAREN ALEXIS: I feel the same way. As far as being around the elders in my family and everything especially, like, carries on. Would you say that you. By you being around, like, some individuals of the older generation, do you find yourself, like, being that bridge in between the younger people in your family? As far as, like, do you and the younger people in your family share the same values?

[10:28] KENDON JOHNSON: Hmm, that's a good question. I haven't really thought of that. It's interesting. It's. I think I share a lot of the same values with a few of my nieces and nephews. When I say value, you know, you know, we all. I can say that we share the same values. We value the same thing. Family, people, our faith, things like that. I think when we get to points of disagreement, sometimes it's along political ideals or something like that. And I do kind of see a. See in line with some of my younger nieces and nephews with that, because I'm the more liberal.

[11:21] KAREN ALEXIS: Okay.

[11:22] KENDON JOHNSON: I grew up in a very conservative household, and I love my family very much, and they love me very much. And we know that we're kind of polar opposites with that in some regards. So it is kind of interesting that I find myself in those situations, kind of aligned to the thinking. But you're right, my value system. Thank you for asking me that, because it made me think through it. My value system has been shaped by the values that my parents, my grandparents, other people who are older than me, instilled in me. So, yeah, I guess that's kind of the answer.

[12:04] KAREN ALEXIS: That's interesting. I would. On my end, I would say I differ from a lot of individuals in my family. Coming from an African American family. Like, now, my dad, he's Panamanian. I don't know anything about him. Besides, he doesn't want anything to do with me. So other than that, like, I was raised, like I said, within the black community. And like, I don't. My family don't. They don't discuss politics with me. They. They don't discuss, like, certain social issues because I am kind of conservative and I am a registered Republican. So it's like, that's even something else. You know, people be like, well, how can you feel this way? They're doing this to us. I'm like, who is us and who is we? And I know me.

[12:56] KENDON JOHNSON: Thank you.

[12:57] KAREN ALEXIS: I know me, and I know my place, you know, my efforts and different things. And I. And I make my decisions based on my future and what I go through because, you know, to me personally, with. I can't go with yes, go for the welfare system. When me, when I was trying to go to college, I got absolutely nothing. You know, I felt as if when I was trying to put myself through college I had to have a child for you to give me health insurance. At that time I had to have a child for you to give me food stamps. So it was almost like you were rewarding individuals for having these things. But here I am, I'm doing what my grandmother and my great grandmother raised me to do. Don't have kids until you get till you are married. You know, you do education first. But where's my reward for doing education first? So I really, I have strong opinions about the welfare system. I really feel as if it has weakened a great deal of individuals. And by me being an entrepreneur, I don't look at. I'm not a consumer minded individual. I'm a creator. So I vary.

[14:15] KENDON JOHNSON: Yeah, that is really interesting. Can you tell me a little bit more about consumer minded versus creator?

[14:26] KAREN ALEXIS: Okay, so consumer minded, you're basically there's, there's bosses and there's consumers.

[14:34] KENDON JOHNSON: Okay.

[14:35] KAREN ALEXIS: So like there's business and there's the person that consumes the business. So when I was going to college I majored in psychology. I love the study of human behavior and because I had an interest in business. So there's. When you look at certain things, when you do an advertising you're thinking about the consumer or your target demographic. So some people, they're a consumer 247 there is just programmed as the new trend. They jump on it without any very sheepish mentality. And so I would like to think I'm an individual thinker. I'm more of a creator and an individual thinker. But then yet I'm positive with it. Some people, some entrepreneurs will utilize someone's spending habits in a sense and turn it against them for their own personal selfish reasons. But I try and use it to subliminally help the person, you know, like, you know, let me help you be a happier person without you knowing it, you know, type of thing. So basically that's it.

[15:47] KENDON JOHNSON: Trying to work for the good.

[15:48] KAREN ALEXIS: Yes, yes, exactly, exactly.

[15:52] KENDON JOHNSON: I like what you said about sometimes people want to see us and assume what we think we should be or should believe or something like that. And I find that. And I've given a lot of thought to that, you know, especially recently in the last few years obviously. But. And you're right, I think part of the. Part of what? One reason I'm much more liberal than my family. Two reasons really. And they are registered Republican or I'm registered Democrat. It's interesting one, I am a gay man, so that would kind of lean that way. But you know, when I first started leaning more Democrat, I was an adult and I was, I'd gotten into. By that point I was in school counseling and whenever I finally really started voting Democrat and everything. Yeah, I guess I might have had some thoughts and notions to the fact that yeah, that's the platform that's kind of upping my cause, so to speak. But a lot of it had to do with. As a school counselor. I started seeing people much more as individuals and empathizing a lot more and practicing that empathy a lot more on a day to day basis obviously. And so I was really able and that's what really kind of led me to that. Yeah. But so I really, I really find myself when people start talking about different issues and we want to make blanket this, that and the other, whether it is, you know, help or loan forgiveness or if it's, you know, gun rights or any of that stuff. Yeah, I do start thinking about the individual. Well, wait a minute, how is that going to affect this person and how's it going to affect this one and this. So I have a, I just have a hard time a lot of times with any, a lot of the, any political issues from any, from any standpoint. I do find though that I think I want a lot. When I look at it in a broad picture sense, I think I want a lot of the same outcomes. But maybe how we're getting there is different. I want all of us to be afforded happiness and have access to what we need and I want those things. I want everyone to have the education they need. I want everyone to have the healthcare they need. I want everyone to have the means to living in, supporting themselves the way they need and all the rights we have. And I think, and I find that we want that, we all want that. But how do we get there? And I think maybe that's what we tend to argue over a lot. Like you said. I've also reached a point with my family where we really don't talk about it very much. Yeah, certain things or sometimes they talk about it. I just sit there and be quiet the whole time. Yes, yes.

[19:08] KAREN ALEXIS: Would you say because of your sexuality that has put you in a more liberal position as far as seeking equal rights for everyone or you know, like. Or is that just has always been for you by nature?

[19:27] KENDON JOHNSON: I. That's made me think about it more. I don't Know if that's what's pushed me more. I said I started leaning more liberal through the counseling and seeing all of the variety of families I interacted with and all the needs, different needs they had and all of that. But the rights part, it's interesting. I never thought I would have the rights I have. I never did. When I was 19 years old, I just assumed I would never. I thought maybe someday I would be. It would be legal to have a same sex marriage, but, oh, I'll be like 75 or 80 or close to death by then. It won't matter. I never thought so I never thought it'd be afforded to me. I never thought having children would be afforded to me. And it's interesting because I am 55 years old and I'm really not interested in. In gaining a spouse at this point in my life.

[20:28] KAREN ALEXIS: You just wanted the rights, but I.

[20:29] KENDON JOHNSON: Just kind of like having the right to do it if I want to. Yes.

[20:32] KAREN ALEXIS: And for it to be your decision.

[20:34] KENDON JOHNSON: Yeah.

[20:35] KAREN ALEXIS: Kind of like how they're doing with the women rights and, and things, you know, as far as reproductive rights.

[20:42] KENDON JOHNSON: Exactly.

[20:42] KAREN ALEXIS: And I feel as if like even my experience with that, people don't think that it has impacted me because I don't have kids. But I've been asking my doctor since I was like 18, like. Cause I get very bad lady times of the month. And I've been asking my doctor forever, like, hey, just snatch them out, get rid of them. I don't need. Take out all that plumbing. And they would say no because you don't have kids. And it's like. But I know as far as with me, I don't want to physically have any kids. So they would not. I've never until now recently been allowed to relinquish that. So I've had to deal with.

[21:25] KENDON JOHNSON: Do you mind me asking about what age they finally agreed with your decision to do that? Really?

[21:31] KAREN ALEXIS: Yeah. Since I moved down here, I had.

[21:33] KENDON JOHNSON: A very good friend of mine years and years ago in grad school who was 27 at the time, and she asked her doctors and she. Because she didn't want to have children. And they like that. They absolutely refuse. Well, you're too young to. Because when you're 35, if you, if you decide you want them, you, you can't reverse this. And so she never. I don't know if she ever did go through with doing that. I don't think she's had children all these years. But that's interesting that you have to wait until you're 40.

[22:09] KAREN ALEXIS: Yeah.

[22:09] KENDON JOHNSON: For that decision.

[22:10] KAREN ALEXIS: Yeah. Menopause.

[22:11] KENDON JOHNSON: At the same time, I can understand telling a 24, 25 year old, advising a 24, 25 year old, not telling a 24, advising a 24, 25. Well, you might want to wait a few more years just to be sure.

[22:25] KAREN ALEXIS: That's, that's, that's the biggest part. Now I do have like, it might be a little off the topic, but how does it feel to be a white man in America?

[22:38] KENDON JOHNSON: I be honest with you, I don't know if I'm privileged because I'm a white man or I'm a man or I grew up in white middle class family and I had so many privileges afforded to me. I might not have known that growing up. I realized that. But I look back on it and I see what disadvantage looks like now as an adult. I see that with some of the families that we work with. I see it sometimes. And I live downtown, so I see that in our downtown community a lot. I help with a breakfast on Sundays and I see that. And I am, I don't know why I'm so privileged. I know I'm not deserving. I mean I did, there's nothing I did to deserve this other than be born, being born in the right family, so to speak, you know. So I feel very privileged. I get a little, I get a little irritated when I hear my fellow white guys who are around my age feel like something's being taken away from them because I don't feel like anything's being taken away from us. At the same time, I do that gay part of me, I know what it's like to be the person on the fringe.

[24:14] KAREN ALEXIS: Right, right.

[24:16] KENDON JOHNSON: And it can be a little bit of a conundrum sometimes.

[24:22] KAREN ALEXIS: Yes, yes. Yeah. And I would say like, especially I've heard a lot of conversation like in which Caucasian individuals may have felt as if something is being taken away from them, but kind of sort of when you look at it in a way, if from your generation and the generations before you, if this is what you know as life to be and you have to take a chunk away, it is kind of something being taken away especially. And this is where my, my thing comes in at like for me, I want my position to be earned, not given to me.

[25:01] KENDON JOHNSON: Gotcha.

[25:01] KAREN ALEXIS: So if you, here you are, if you're, I'll say, a white guy and your family has had this industry on lock, but then now I can only have 80% of this industry because 20% is about to just be given. So to this Population not earned, but given. And then. So it's kind of like, to me, in my head, it's almost like giving somebody a participation trophy. Oh, don't worry. You gotta tell the truth. You have to work hard or else you're gonna lose this race. You're not gonna get a ribbon just because you're in the race. So that's going, to me, in a way, is going back to weakening the individual. Unfortunately, African Americans have gone through certain things, and I feel personally, and getting to my move down here, I feel some people are just still stuck within a certain place.

[25:59] KENDON JOHNSON: Okay.

[26:01] KAREN ALEXIS: Before I move forward, I would like to thank you for your service as far as being a counselor, working within the community, because being someone outside of that, being able to come in and share your vision and, you know, believe. Because honestly, it's been more people that don't look like me that have helped me and along the way and provided that support. It's been most of the people that have done hurtful things looks like me. So I just want to tell you thank you for your professional contribution to, you know, everything.

[26:36] KENDON JOHNSON: I appreciate that. You look very much. That's. I. Yeah, I see what you're saying. I do think we need to earn it. I. I think where I was given a step up for my. I was given the. I was given a security net for me to earn my success. I am proud of what I've earned in my life with my education and my career and that kind of thing. And I do feel I earned it. I never have really thought that the more rights someone else gains and the more inclusion someone else gains and earns, that it takes away from my rights. In fact, I think it makes me stronger. I mean, let's look at it. You and I are able to sit here and have this conversation totally. And probably 70, 80 years ago, they would have not let us talk to each other.

[27:29] KAREN ALEXIS: Exactly. Yeah, exactly. And I might not have had the confidence to converse because the way. The way things were.

[27:37] KENDON JOHNSON: Exactly. So. Yeah.

[27:39] KAREN ALEXIS: And.

[27:40] KENDON JOHNSON: Oh, I'd like to hear more about your move down here, because that was only a short time ago. And this is. You're right, Southern world, Deep south is very different.

[27:50] KAREN ALEXIS: Yes, it's different than what I anticipated it to be. I was being in Cleveland, I had this kind of like cloud or filter to where I thought most of the world. Not world, most of the United States urban areas was like Cleveland. Cleveland is very segregated. You can almost like, if you were to see an individual, you almost knew what part of town they stayed on so it's like Puerto Ricans in one area. Then you have Middle Easterners, then you have Little Italy, then you have Slavic village. The east side is basically black people. Lower east side is interracial couples and Asians. And Ohio City is where most of the gays live. Yeah. And that's. And then the most population of white people stay on the west side. So everybody kind of. Kind of stay within their areas and everything. But. So I always thought that, like, down south, it was, like, really racist. I thought that, you know, it wasn't going to be a lot of intermingling between whites and blacks, because in Cleveland, only time are you really. You really would, like, kind of chat it up with, like, somebody outside of your race is like, if you're at work, scope of business, because everybody kind of did. Or you might be drunk downtown at the bar, you know.

[29:26] KENDON JOHNSON: Yeah, you can talk to anybody, but.

[29:29] KAREN ALEXIS: It'S definitely not like, here's my number. Give me a call. We're going to do lunch. It's like everybody kind of keep their respective space in a sense. So coming down here, I was, like, standing in line, and this white guy just turned around, started talking to me, and I'm like. At first turned around to see if he was talking to somebody else, but he was talking to me. And I'm like. And I was kind of nervous because I'm thinking to myself, like, he must know I'm not from here. You know, why is he talking? I noticed everybody's talking and everybody's, yes, ma'am and all. I said, okay, this is different. But also, when I would leave out the house in Cleveland, you have this automatic meme mug. You have, like, this look. I don't know if it's kind of like that. Don't f. With me look when you come out the door, you have to have it, because it's like battlefield when you leave out, you know, because it would be like, back home in Cleveland, I'll be in an awesome mood in the house, go to the gas station, somebody's cussing somebody out, and somebody had to walk through four or five people begging me for change or something. And it's just too much, you know, just loud music, just too much going on. Just before I could even get my cup of coffee. By the time I'm leaving out, I'm pissed off. My awesome feeling that went out the window because of the people in the environment, just the vibes. So coming down here is just like. This just seems nice and fluffy. But I have encountered some individuals where I feel like, you know, they give you that look like, okay, we're sharing space and that's it. And to me, that's fine too. You know, with me, I'd rather someone be outright and let me know how they feel. I can respect that. And that's why I was a first round Trump supporter. I did vote for Trump the first go round, this go round, definitely not. But I had to change that. I had to realize I am not a product of my environment and I'm not an angry black woman, but my environment back home made me have to be that angry black woman to survive. So it's like now I feel like I am living life and not just existing.

[31:53] KENDON JOHNSON: That's wonderful to hear.

[31:54] KAREN ALEXIS: Thank you.

[31:54] KENDON JOHNSON: And thank you for such a good commentary from the South. We don't get a lot of those down here. Really. We don't get a lot of good, like, oh, man, the south is great because of this. Well, unless they're talking about food.

[32:06] KAREN ALEXIS: Yeah, the food. Yes, definitely.

[32:08] KENDON JOHNSON: But. And I totally can relate to that. You know, like I said, I lived overseas for several years and it wasn't, it wasn't that I had to go on to an angry space or anything, but I know I felt like I was constantly in a cultural navigation, not just the language barrier, but just like you'd walk in somewhere and you kind of look around to see how everyone else is doing, whatever it is you need to do and kind of. So you could fall in line and not, yes, draw attention to yourself, so to speak, and that kind of thing. And it, I, being a product from the South, I am that overt friendly. I mean, I say yes ma'am and no ma'am all the time. I say it to people older than me, my age, younger than me. I just do it. I say, you know, I've even been known to tell the waitress or the person in the over the counter at the store that, thank you, darling, I appreciate that.

[33:05] KAREN ALEXIS: So that's nice.

[33:06] KENDON JOHNSON: I just, I love. That's one of the things I loved about moving back down here was just that overt friendliness. I do like it. It's nice to see people and have a smile on their face and put a smile on my face.

[33:19] KAREN ALEXIS: Yes.

[33:19] KENDON JOHNSON: You know, that is kind of a nice change. I have to admit. I hadn't thought much about that in a while.

[33:23] KAREN ALEXIS: But yes, you're right, it's a difference. And like the area that I live in, I live in Phoenix City, up kind of by Smith Station. And what I've also realized is that, like, there's. I think we all. When I say we all, like, all of us kind of like, even in the area there, it's like we just don't like ghetto, you know what you're saying? I guess that's the only way I could kind of put it where I hate that it is typically just assigned to African Americans. But believe me, you go down on Broadway in Cleveland, it's everybody. You know, it's not just one nationality. It's just more or less a mentality type of thing. But that's part of what I had to realize. You know, there's. I don't believe in white is right how people say, oh, you have on your. You have your white voice. I'm like, no, you know, that doesn't. This is how I talk all the time, you know, but kind of like you said that assimilation. And what I enjoy about seeing down here is kind of like, hey, I don't care what color you are. I don't care if your hair is straight or napped up.

[34:33] KENDON JOHNSON: Just act right and just act right. Do the right thing.

[34:36] KAREN ALEXIS: That's it. You know, don't be uncouth. As my grandmother would say, mind your manners, and everything is fine. And that's what I've experienced here versus in Cleveland. In Cleveland, you know, it's almost it. You know, it's. It's not for you to get along and being, you know, and intertwined with everybody. They want to keep you separate. So. Did you say that? All right. You said that you were overseas. Do you mind me asking what country?

[35:07] KENDON JOHNSON: I was in Germany for a few years.

[35:10] KAREN ALEXIS: Okay. And what is your family's, like, ethnic. Ethnic history, I think.

[35:16] KENDON JOHNSON: Ethnicity, history and all that. I think it's a lot of English, Irish, primarily. Last name is Johnson, and a little bit of German, actually, from Louisiana and not any French. I know people can't believe that I've got no French heritage. Had a lot of aunts and uncles and cousins, and even my brother married and my sister married people from French ancestry and Cajun, so to speak.

[35:50] KAREN ALEXIS: Okay.

[35:51] KENDON JOHNSON: So.

[35:51] KAREN ALEXIS: Okay. Would you say that? All right. One of the things I used to ask people this, like, kind of all the time. I wanted your opinion. Like, to me, I don't feel. How can I put it? Like, with the whole movement, like, Black Lives Matter. And I can't think of, like, off top, some other. Some from other, like, races, but basically, like, everyone. Like, I grew up also in Warren, Ohio, which is outside of Cleveland, like, about 45 minutes. And every year, the KKK would have a rally on the town square. And this is during my lifetime. And I want to say they probably just stopped a couple years ago.

[36:40] KENDON JOHNSON: Wow.

[36:40] KAREN ALEXIS: And this is in Ohio.

[36:42] KENDON JOHNSON: That even sounds a little scary for me. I can't imagine I grew.

[36:45] KAREN ALEXIS: And for us on that day, if you were black, the movies were free. You could go skating for free, half price McDonald's, anything to keep you from downside. And it's like never really ever any issues. So, you know, kind of coming down here with, you know, experiencing that. And then like I did, I did like different research on different race groups and everything. Do you think, how do you feel about, like, as far as the Black Lives Matter, do you think? Like, do you. How can I put it? You have people that feel some type of way about Black Lives Matter, but then it's like, like maybe the Aryan Nation or, you know, if it might be an Irish group or something. It seems like they get a different view.

[37:34] KENDON JOHNSON: You know, I think fringe groups like that, like KKK and Neo non secrets, things like that. And I'm not. I'm way far from an expert in any of that. I think there's a sense of holding on to what they have and keeping very, very segregated, even unto themselves. I think there's a certain level of fear once again, oh, the more rights others have. It's taken something from me, so to speak. And I'm far from an expert on that. I do know, I do think that it's interesting. And what I've done a little bit with my education in studying societal norms and all that through psychology and counseling and all that, we do have movements and movements feed off of other movements. So you had post World War II and the. And the soldiers came back and we integrated the Department of Defense, so to speak, and the militaries and all that. And people were coming back, soldiers were coming back, and they were going back into Jim Crow. And that really sparked that civil rights movement. And then Brown versus Florida of education goes and just really fed on. And then of course, in the early 70s, you see the women's movement and the fight for access to birth control, for example, and things like that. And then from there you went to the sexual revolution, which fed the gay movement and on and on. So I think we do that. I kind of feel like the Black Lives Matter. I think we. If we really were to sit down and really study American history in terms of social aspects, I could. I bet we could. I know we could see several different civil rights, like for example, suffrage back in the early Century. So I think that was just another. I think it's another civil rights movement. I think we do make. I think we make progress, and then over time, we get stagnant in whatever progress there has been made. And a new generation comes along and they see where more progress can be made and they start fighting for that. So it doesn't. I think it's wonderful in a lot because I do believe. I know we feel like we take steps back sometimes, but I do feel like in our country we believe. I believe that in this country we are on a positive progression in our trajectory with rights and inclusion and things like that. Like I was saying earlier, I didn't. I would have never dreamed at the age of 40 something that I would have the right to be married. We do make those strides. So I think that's a lot of it. And anytime people protest, it gets uncomfortable for a minute.

[40:44] KAREN ALEXIS: Yes.

[40:44] KENDON JOHNSON: Because we have to reconcile ourselves around that and how we feel about it. And it's not always a comfortable feeling. Especially anytime we have to question what I might believe or what I might think.

[40:57] KAREN ALEXIS: Right.

[40:58] KENDON JOHNSON: You know, it gets uncomfortable to say, well, maybe my thinking. We don't want to sit here and think our thinking is wrong or our belief system is wrong.

[41:06] KAREN ALEXIS: Right, right. That's true. That's true. Question. And, you know, if you don't feel comfortable asking, have you always known that you were gay? Like, in college, I did a paper and it was about nature and nurture. And my instructor asked me to write about the Indian two spirited individuals. So I was like, that totally opened my eyes to things. So you may be familiar with nature and nurture. So how would you say both of those play a role in your sexual orientation?

[41:47] KENDON JOHNSON: I don't know if it's really nature or nurture. I know that I have a very supportive family who loved me very much. And it was very hard on my parents. I was in college, my last year of college, when they became aware and I'd come out already and it was very difficult on them. And I had a very wonderful teacher at the time who I remember, I just broke down to one time in his office, and he said, kendon, we all hit a point in our life where we have to be the adult and our parents are allowed to be the kid. And this is one of those times. And you're going to have to take on the maturity and do it.

[42:33] KAREN ALEXIS: I love it.

[42:34] KENDON JOHNSON: And it was great advice because. Yeah, that's exactly. You know, so did I always know. I always knew I was different and I Got a funny story about that one in a second. I always knew I was different, and I knew that I was gay by the time I was in high school, but I could not accept it. And so I didn't really accept it and come out and all of that until I was in college, my second year of college. But I even went through my first year of college dating girls, some wonderful girls who truly, I think they knew I was gay before I did. Anyway, that's a whole different podcast, so to speak. But. And he reminded me, how long did it take you to deal with this, Kenan? And remember, I knew you when you were a freshman here. And I said, well, okay. He goes, so don't expect for your parents to be able to just accept this immediately. It's going to take him some time. And that's right. You know, parents have a right, you know, when you have that baby, you mapped out their life, so to speak, right? And whenever something doesn't work out the way you had hoped, you have to take a minute and mourn that and regroup. And everyone's allowed that. So it's been great. But I really knew something wasn't right. Now, I had all these guy cousins, and they really were nice to me as a little kid and all that, but I never met. My first day at kindergarten, I was the sixth kid to arrive. So there was this one boy who was off to the side crying because his mom just left. And then there were two other boys and two other girls. And the two girls were playing in that little kitchen area and playing nice and quiet and everything. And then there were two boys in this block area with toys and stuff, like loud and yelling at you, and then banging those trucks together and blocks together. So my mom helped me find my chair. I'll never forget this. And my name was, you know, tape on the table in front of my chair, and I found it. She said, see, this is you. And she spelled it out. And she watched me for a few minutes. And I sat there like this, looking over there. As she came back over a few minutes later, she kissed me. Okay, I'm going to see you this afternoon. Everything's going to be okay. Yeah, that's okay. I walked over there because I really wanted to get up and go play with those girls because they were nice and quiet. And those boys kind of scared me and laughed. But I knew I wasn't supposed to get up. Go, go just play with girls. I just knew that. And I remember thinking to myself, it's going to be a long Day in a long 12 years. I literally remember. Think of that in kindergarten. This is going to be a long 12 years.

[45:19] KAREN ALEXIS: I got to find a middle ground or something. And, you know, it's funny how, like, when you were a kid, things, you know, you get a glimpse into your future. Because as a kid, my cousins playing with my girl cousins, they want the baby to house, oh, this is my baby. And this, this, that I used to tell them, like, okay, if this is my baby, you're watching my baby, and I'm going to work. I am going to play business or store. When I was younger, my grandmother used to buy me ledgers. You know, like, I didn't know what I was filling in. I just knew. And then, like, I even. I used to play school as well, and my cousin and I, we used to play church. I used to be the preacher. She used to be the lady in the front row and be like, hallelujah, you know, and also she and I, we. She had a Fisher Price camera, and I had a Fisher Price tape recorder. So I used to do, like, little radio shows back then. So today to this day, like, I'm a podcaster and she's a videographer. And, you know, and it's beautiful that our parents and those around us. Well, my grandmother, I call her my mom, you know, they poured into our interest, you know, and things. And so I think that was really great that your parents and your family was.

[46:40] KENDON JOHNSON: And I always had that as well. My parents really poured into my interest. They, you know, so they did come around. It took a year or so, but. Okay, but they came around and they're wonderful. They're wonderful and they're accepting. And we don't talk about all the time or anything, but we've had discussions and things like that. One thing that's very interesting. Excuse me so much. I. You were asking me earlier about perception with the Black Lives Matter movement and all that. My dad. So I grew up in a very southern white family, so it was nothing for me to hear, for example, cousins or uncles use the N word. Now, we knew better than that. And I take that back to my dad, who was a public school teacher. So he was teaching in south Louisiana back in the mid-60s when integration started in the forest. Integration started and all of that. So he taught at a very. He was young, too, at a very young age, all those students. And, you know, of course, he was sent to the former. What was the former black school because, you know, they had to mix all these people. They couldn't put them all in one building. It wasn't big enough, so they kind of divided up grades. So he wound up as a 9th grade teacher, I believe, or something, teaching over at the former black school, but was also one of the coaches. So he had black kids on his team and everything. So, you know, it's interesting. Even before I started school, I remember being around my dad's athletes, white and black, and their girlfriends and everyone, and it just. It just seemed so. It seemed so normal for me. I didn't know that there was anything different. And he treated them all the same, you know, he really did. And like I said, he did not. He would have. Not. If he heard anything like that coming out, he would have. He would have lost the roof. But he was a very kind man.

[48:51] KAREN ALEXIS: Yeah, I was just gonna ask you something. As far as my standpoint, like, coming from Cleveland, it was nothing to hear a group of white kids slaying the N word around, talking to each other, like, totally talking to each other, like. But I've. I use it in a social situation. I'm guilty of it. And even within that situation, it's like anybody's want. I mean, it's not. But I do agree that I think that it is something that should not be used. Just kind of like, I know we're gonna be wrapping up, but what would you say that. Oh, I just lost my train of thought. It was about that. I lost it. You could go ahead.

[49:43] KENDON JOHNSON: I have friends who are. That use derogatory terms with gay and I. And they use it a lot in humor. A lot of it is in humor.

[49:54] KAREN ALEXIS: That's. That's what I was gonna. That's what I was gonna say. If you don't mind me, please do. I find, like, a lot of times blacks are very sensitive about what others say about us, even in comedy and stuff, Blackface and stuff. But then within African American comedy and humor, it's like the white person is depicted in a. You know, to me, it's almost like an exploit. Exploit. You know, Exploitative or whatever way. How do you feel about that?

[50:25] KENDON JOHNSON: I can see that very much. I can understand why that would be offensive because I didn't grow up with black parents in a black home, but black brothers and sisters. So, you know. Yeah, it's one thing for a black comedian to use that language, knowing that that's his life, for example, or just someone on the street, so to speak. You know, like I said about. What I can relate it to is I have some gay friends that will throw some of those words around. And I don't always like it. Now there's a couple of them that don't bother. Well, I don't hear a lot of straight people say queen as opposed to fag or faggot. But, you know, every once in a while, they'll say, I like. No, listen. And I typically just kind of ignore it. I don't engage it. I just, like, let it go because I don't want to. That's my. That's my bot. That bothers me. And I'm not gonna. I've learned to not let people bother me.

[51:38] KAREN ALEXIS: Me, too.

[51:39] KENDON JOHNSON: Keep the bother to myself, because I'll get over that. That's important, Especially if I love that person. Yeah.

[51:44] KAREN ALEXIS: It's not worth falling out with them.

[51:46] KENDON JOHNSON: Exactly.

[51:47] KAREN ALEXIS: I would definitely say I have really, truly enjoyed talking with you today. Kind of. In closing, if we had another hour to chat, what types of things briefly would you hope to discuss?

[52:01] KENDON JOHNSON: Oh, my goodness. You know, I would love to come, continue to hear about your family, and I'd love to continue hearing about. You know, I can see how so much your grandmother and great grandmother shaped who you are and your outlook on life, and you've just taken that to the next level, and you're amazing. I enjoyed it so much, and I would just love to hear more about that. I think that's what I like. That's why I wanted to do this. I wanted to hear someone else's life and perspective of life. And brings us back to the first question.

[52:44] KAREN ALEXIS: Right.

[52:45] KENDON JOHNSON: How about you?

[52:47] KAREN ALEXIS: Like, I really used to. I'm really glad and appreciative of this time because I've come a long way from what I expected a white man to be and what I expected a gay man to be. So it's kind of. And I would. It was just. I enjoy your spirit, your energy. I think I would just like to talk to you about anything. It's like, almost like, hey, we need to exchange nerves after this. I need to get you on my podcast.

[53:17] KENDON JOHNSON: And by the way, I must let anyone who listens to this know I love her T shirt. She wore a T shirt in today that says, be a nice human. And if that just does not sum up Karen, who she is. It's right there.

[53:30] KAREN ALEXIS: Yes, sir. Thank you. It's been great.

[53:33] KENDON JOHNSON: It's been wonderful. Thank you.

[53:35] KAREN ALEXIS: Awesome.