Kimberly Lemite and Daniel Elliott

[00:06] KIM LEMITE: My name is Kim I am 54 years old. The date is June 20, 2022. I'm in the Storycorp visual recording booth, and I'm here with Daniel, my one small step conversation partner.

[00:27] DANIEL ELLIOTT: My name is Daniel, and I am in the story corp conversation booth with my conversation partner, Kim.

[00:43] KIM LEMITE: So, Daniel, I'm going to read your bio. I'm a disciple of Jesus Christ, albeit often not a very good one. I have five kids, and I try to enjoy every moment that I have with each of them. On one side of my family, I am a descendant of native american and well known raps galleons. On the other side, a Revolutionary War soldier that became a general, a politician, and a successful businessman whose fame was superseded by his younger brother, William Clark. I'm also a descendant of the McCoy family from eastern Kentucky, and I'll go ahead and read Kim's bio. So, Kim wrote, my roots start with my parents being raised in the historic, quote, deep south. Both were descendants of slaves, migrated in 1959 to New York to escape racism in the south. I learned about their stories from questions because they did not freely share their traumas. I was integrated into a private catholic school in the 1970s in Long island, which was a redline area. It is important that people who owned slaves talk about it and freely admit that at one time, their family may have used the free labor of blacks. Do either of you have a question that you'd like to start with? I'll start. So, Daniel I really appreciated your story from the very beginning, and you are probably the first person I get to ever ask the question. You know, tell me a little bit about your family background and the fact that they were, you know, sort of these people that, you know, they came here to this country, and they had enslaved labor as part of that. I've just never been able to ask somebody that, that question. Please tell me about your family history from that standpoint.

[02:50] DANIEL ELLIOTT: Okay, well, my family history is a little, you know, obviously, we all come from a mother and a father, and I heard, actually, more stories from my father's side, and my father's side was more. His grandfather on his maternal side, was full Native Americana. His father was descended from coal mine type environment and area. And I know that the majority of that side of my family came from, you know, an anglo saxon history, and they came over as criminals to the United States and immigrated to eastern Tennessee, Kentucky, southwest Virginia area. And that's kind of where they ended up. My maternal side is probably the one that I think you're more interested in. You know, that that side of the family has been, gosh, rooted in Virginia for generations. And, you know, my grandfather was World War Two veteran. His father before him, I didn't hear too much about, other than he came from a very. My grandfather came from a very wealthy family, last name Clark Lewis and Clark is tied into that family, but a different. A little bit of a different branch. So there was a lot of politics, a lot of wealth, let's just say, in that side. But there's a lot of. That's the best way to put it. Not a whole lot of soft kindness, compassion type thing type people. They felt like everybody had a place and a purpose, and you don't ask questions, and they just do what you're supposed to do. And I think a lot of the stories that I grew up with were pretty rough, let's just say. So he married, I guess my grandfather married a woman who was from the. Her last name was counts, and she was from, I guess a lot of her people were tied into the McCoys from the. The Hatfield McCoy feud in Kentucky. And so when they got married, he was maybe 1415 years older than she was and very involved in, I guess, local politics, muslim community. And that was in Abingdon, Virginia. I had heard stories that he was tied into the KKK, but it was all very hush hush. We didn't really. Nobody really talked a lot about it. But I did grow up going to their house occasionally. They had six kids. They actually had seven. One of their kids died at birth. His name was Daniel, actually. So I heard stories about him because my name is Daniel, and I heard stories from my mom and aunts and uncles. Just my grandfather, I guess, after world War Two, came back and was just different. Loved to drink, loved to gamble. Had a reputation of just being a fun guy in the adult sense, but was pretty rough with his kids, was pretty rough with his wife. My grandmother had responsibility for the house and taking care of everything, being the maternal one, but there was always an underlying racist tone around the house there. I had my grandmother directly tell me that black people had their people and white people had their people, and the two are not supposed to mix. And this was when I was anywhere from. I remember hearing these stories, 810 years old, which didn't make sense to me because I had a different experience growing up in North Carolina. But when we would go visit, that's kind of where it was, where I was told what I was told. And they lived on Main street in Abington, within a couple blocks of the barter theater. And my grandmother lives there still today. She's 90 years old. She. Later, when I went to college, I went to visit a couple times on my own, and she made it abundantly clear that if I were to ever bring. If I were to ever date a black woman, that I was to never show up at that house again. So that was kind of hard to hear. I also heard stories from my mom, who was the oldest, that in high school, he started dating a mexican girl and brought her. He was. I guess he came by the house or something, and as soon as my grandfather heard that she was in the car at the house, he actually brought a shotgun out and shot a couple rounds at them. So, yeah, that's. It was kind of rough.

[09:40] KIM LEMITE: That is.

[09:41] DANIEL ELLIOTT: Not sure they would. I'm not sure they would have been the kindest or gentlest of slave owners, if I'm being honest, from the ones that did own slaves. They didn't. They didn't see blacks and whites as equals.

[10:04] KIM LEMITE: How did that shape you as you were growing up and listening to how much. They obviously were hard workers and very strong minded people, but also, there's that edge of not being so kind. How did that shape you?

[10:23] DANIEL ELLIOTT: Well, I didn't. I spent some time around them, but I spent the majority of time around my father's side of the family, which was very different, opposite different. And so. Well, to give you an idea, my father's father, he was valedictorian of his class, dirt poor, had. He was legally blind, and he was probably one of the most brilliant men that I've ever been around. Also super fine and super fun, super kind, but he had an addiction, and it ultimately cost him his life. But, you know, I remember he was always fun to be around, always joking with kids. I mean, he was always a kid at heart. He taught distributive education. He was a Virginia state teacher of the year a couple of times, and just. He was one of the most soft hearted, kind men that I'd ever met. But at the same time, he was addicted to alcohol and just got strung out on it, and he couldn't find his way. I think he was legally blind, so he could never officially drive, even though he taught my grandmother how to drive. He taught all my aunts and uncles how to drive, but he couldn't get a license himself, so he often hitchhiked. He ended up going to, I think, the Virginia teachers college. It was the precursor to Virginia Commonwealth University. The teachers college there got his teacher's teaching certificate, and then he actually walked from Richmond. I think he hitchhiked is what the story was. He hitchhiked from Richmond to Abingdon, and that's where he met my grandmother. And then they settled in Elizabeth and Tennessee for a while, and then they moved to Abingdon, Virginia. And so those were just the stories that I had heard.

[12:51] KIM LEMITE: And when you. Sorry, go ahead.

[12:56] DANIEL ELLIOTT: Okay. Yeah. So another story that kind of really affected me that my dad told me was when he was in Elizabeth in Tennessee. I think he was six or seven years old. His best friend was black, and they would play together all the time, and then they would go to school, and one day, this is going to make me cry. One day, his best friend's father didn't come home, and they couldn't. They didn't know what had happened to him. And then several days later, they found him hanging in a tree. And it just. That really affected me that someone would do that to someone's father.

[13:44] KIM LEMITE: So did they find the guy who did it?

[13:49] DANIEL ELLIOTT: They know they. There was everything that was not uncommon to happen. And there was a known group of KKK members in the area. And, you know, I don't know all the details around it, but I do know that there was a group of people. Whether they found them, whether they didn't, they certainly weren't held accountable appropriately. So, you know, that boy's family, they ended up moving out of the area shortly thereafter. So I didn't get to hear a whole lot of more stories around it, but.

[14:32] KIM LEMITE: Oh, my God.

[14:33] DANIEL ELLIOTT: You know, that. That was hard. That was brutal.

[14:36] KIM LEMITE: Yeah.

[14:38] DANIEL ELLIOTT: And to know that, you know, the flip side of the family owned slaves, and. And to know how they. They treated their own family, you know, I can only imagine how they treated slaves, how they treated black people. So, you know, it's not something that I look back on that I would ever think I descended from, but I did. I think. I think something helped me years ago. Was it Ezekiel 18? I believe. I think it was somewhere around verse 20 in the middle where it talks about how one man is responsible for his own sins, and the son is responsible for his own sins, and the father is responsible for his own sins. But the father is not responsible for the son's sins, and the son is not responsible for the father's sins. So, you know, I think that scripture and reading it in the context that was there helped me understand that I'm not responsible for the way that my ancestors acted. I'm responsible for me in the way that I act, in the way that I treat people. And I may not like it. I may not want. I may not agree with it, but there's nothing that I can do about what happened in the past. What I can do is control how I treat people, and I can look at how those. How my ancestors actions shaped them. And I can take the good and I can filter out the bad, and I can become who I want to be. I think I reflect back on a couple conversations that I have with my grandma, with my mom's mom, my grandmother. On one hand, she's super sweet, and I really loved her, but on the other hand, you know, I can't understand the perspective that she shared with me. I don't understand it. Some of the most brilliant people that I've ever met are black. Some of the most loving, kind people are black. And as maybe idealist as it is, I think Martin Luther said it best. It's not the color of one's skin. It's the content of their heart. And I don't, you know, I don't know. I think there's been a couple areas where I would say something, and I had to catch myself because I have a hard time seeing skin tone. And it being, you know, a factor in how I treat people, but it absolutely is a factor in how other people see themselves or see each other. And so I remember, you know, one of the first girls that I dated in college was black. And I remember that conversation I had with my grandmother. And so I'm like, I can't ever go back over to her house. I can't ever see her. Well, I never told her about that, that relationship that I had. So. And I think I've seen her a couple times since then, but I don't have a very tight relationship with her. So, you know, it's in the back of my mind for sure. It's just not something that allow to direct how I am. Now, the flip side of that is, I've said things in the past with brothers and sisters, even in our church. I remember helping one of the pastors move his family into a home, and there was six or seven of us, and there was a brother that recently passed away that had just moved to Richmond from Boston. And I think, you know, the pastor, our church is now in Maryland, but he's a really large black man who played football at Maryland, and he's just a great friend of mine. And I can't remember what I was saying, but I said something about a black baby, and there was a joking context around it. I didn't really pay attention to the environment that I was in. But this brother had moved down from Minnesota, was just helping move, and he stopped for a second, and he looked at me and said, what did you just say? And it was jarring, but it also brought to mind, I gotta pay attention to what I think and what I say and who it affects, because it meant nothing to me. And the brother, that was the minister, he totally knew that there was no ill will or racial intent behind it because he knew me. But this other brother didn't know me very well, and he was like, wait a minute. What did you just say? So just, it reminded me that I've got to be sensitive to how other people see skin tone and heritage. And it's interesting, I think we talked about how on Sunday, we all have love for our own tribe, but when someone loves from a different tribe, that can be jarring. And people can sometimes look at the way we treat people from other tribes, and they can. They can not take kindly to it sometimes. So, I don't know, hopefully that that gave you a little bit more insight into me and who I am and where the history comes from.

[21:22] KIM LEMITE: Yeah. And I know, and I know you, so I know that you're so much more than your ancestors were, and that's really the point, is that we can grow out of those experiences. And. Thank you.

[21:38] DANIEL ELLIOTT: Yeah. So I'll ask you essentially the same question. How did the stories and the history from your parents affect you?

[21:53] KIM LEMITE: Yeah. So what was passed down to me was that my parents came from Selma. My mother, which is a very historic place where Martin Luther King Watch. Marched across the bridge, right, as part of the civil rights movement. My uncle participated in civil rights movement. My grandmother participated in civil rights. And, you know, my ancestors were enslaved Africans from Ghana, probably because that's where, when I do the little DNA swab, that's where all, like, 80% of my DNA is from Ghana. So, you know, my family were enslaved Africans. And then my father comes from Tuskegee, another very well known part of Alabama, and he had twelve brothers and sisters. And so they knew lots of people in the town. And there were stories about men who went away to go and do some experiments and never came home because they were part of the Tuskegee experiment. So I have lots of, like, little snippets of stories from all of my ancestry, my relatives, you know, but mostly my parents didn't sit around the house and talk about it because they left. You know, they left in 1959. My mother told me that the KKK used to drive down her block every Sunday, you know, she didn't want to grow up and raise children in a town like that. So living in Long island in a sort of black and hispanic neighborhood, that was where my parents could afford to live. And we sort of had a shared black community where a lot of what was passed down was, like, education and church. Right. That's the way out. That is the way out of your condition. And so my parents were very forward thinking, like, very forward focus. Let's not talk about what was. So all I had was just like, work hard, work harder than anybody else. Because we're black, we have to work harder. And that will just, and then even with that will just be enough. You know, we're not, we're never going to be equal. We went back home to my mom's home a lot to visit my grandmother, and my mom would say, don't look white people in the eye. We can't go to this side of town. You know, I was a little girl, so this was in the early seventies. And so, you know, it was very clear that my mom had a lot of scars from the way blacks were, like, thought of as not quite a, you know, enough, not good enough. But like I said, living in New York, it was a whole different view. I could go to school. I could move forward. And so, yeah, I ended up getting a PhD from Ivy League school. So, you know, my story is a success, quote, unquote. But I didn't know a lot about my history. And so it was me reading and researching, because in the books and the elementary schools, even through high school, there was nothing. It was like, yes, there were enslaved people, and then America was great. And I'm like, where's my story in that? You know? And so I had to learn more. I had to learn more and I learned more. And it made me a little bit, it made me angry, you know, it made me upset that I wasn't represented, that, you know, my family went through Jim Crow, they went through civil rights, all of these things. They had to fight for everything that they had, and it wasn't represented. Nobody really cared about it. And then even now, you know, as my family, you know, yes, we're free and we can go about doing the things we want, but we're behind. We're starting late, you know, so healthcare, my, my, I've lost so many relatives to heart disease, emphysema, things that, like, these are treatable conditions. A lot of things like the mindset, oh, we don't go to the doctor. Oh, we don't, you know, there's a lot of things that we have, we still behind. The way I see it, the banking systems were tricky. You know, you had land when my mom was coming up, and that was basically how they survived. My great grandmother was a gifted farmer, and she had livestock, and that was. I mean, the white people would come from the other side of town to buy from her yard, and that was how they survived. My grandmother was a gifted seamstress, and she was a schoolteacher in black schools only back then, right? So that was where they got their success. But even still, to go and buy a piece of property somewhere to make a real estate investment, to get a loan, those things were, that might as well have been rocket science to my family. They knew nothing of those things. So, you know, yes, my parents did keep pushing, and they made it to civil servant jobs. My mom was a nurse's aide. My dad was a police officer. And so then they made it, you know, in their eyes. But we still lived in the black neighborhood, right? So we couldn't. We're pushing. We're getting there, but we're not quite there, right? To arrive was to be able to be seen like everybody else. You can go buy a house in a white neighborhood, but in Long island in the eighties, the seventies, those are very segregated areas. So I say red line, meaning I lived in a black neighborhood, and I wasn't going to get to live in a house in the white neighborhood. It's not going to happen. And so graduation rates in my neighborhood were much lower. So already my people are not getting to graduate with the educational access that other people, other kids do. My parents put me in catholic school, and that's when religion became a big deal for me. I see these people, they're praying with rosary beads, and they're getting great houses. I'm like, what? I want a good house. I'm going to use the rosary beads, too. You know, I was a kid, I didn't know, but it was like I realized that it was that sort of collective experience of being exposed to what these other kids had in this catholic school. All cat, they were all white, Irish mostly, and religious. And so in my small mind at that time, okay, education, religion, it just kept being reinforced for me. And then another opportunity, I ended up dancing. And through dance, I was able to travel, and it just kept opening my mind to new ideas and new things. And so those are the things I think that helped. But I still, you know, I have a lot of that black hurt and that black pain when I see my brothers and sisters who don't get those opportunities, and maybe they didn't get the resources. Like, I was able to take the resources and do everything I could, squeeze everything I could get out of it. You know, very much like your ancestors, they were just doing everything they could to try to eke out a living, and that was kind of what I was doing. But I do, you know, I do carry that hurt and sadness of, you know, the fact that people still, you know, disproportionately are incarcerated, who are black and brown, that they are still getting the health care for many is great. And for some, they don't go to the doctor. So there are still those gaps, you know, and those are the things I still focus on, but not with anger and not with, like, we need to burn it down, but more like, we need to figure out how to come together. We need to use all of our experiences and stories to really build this. And that's where the church comes in. I think we've come so far in our understanding that, yeah, love is a. Love is an action word. And that's what I've learned, being a part of a multiracial church, is that I may not agree politically with many of the people in the church, but we all are taking that, the idea that we love one another and are willing to lay down our stories for the collective vision of loving Christ and evangelizing this message. So that, to me, is the greatest opportunity. But I still continue to push with black pride and with people who don't have access to things. Whatever I can do is what I do do. I can't do everything, but what I've been doing is enough.

[30:54] DANIEL ELLIOTT: Yeah, that's great. Yeah, that kind of brings out another question, or, I don't know, fast forward a little bit to current events, whether it be in our communities or even in our churches, it feels like this racial tension is still there. It still exists. I don't know if you feel it or see it, but I look around and I'm like, we haven't learned. Like, we still are in the same struggle. And I don't understand it.

[31:40] KIM LEMITE: And I wonder, is it that we're still in the same struggle, or is it that we're always going to have this issue? You know, even when Jesus was walking the earth, there were jews, there were gentiles, there were tribes, cultures. There were people from different regions. And here we are in our church. We have people from all over the planet, you know, different cultures. And so it's just always going to be with us. I think that's the point is, can we love our brother? Can we love them?

[32:21] DANIEL ELLIOTT: Yeah.

[32:22] KIM LEMITE: And I agree. I don't want one thing I think that does as a black woman, it bothers me is if a white person feels they have to apologize for something that I don't think is necessary. Like, what do you think about this whole, like, white people need to apologize? I'm like, no, why.

[32:44] DANIEL ELLIOTT: The whole push for reparations? I'm not sure that I, on one hand, what reparations can be made. On the other hand, I get it. I think I see the issues around finances and banks and the opportunities lost. How do you overcome those? How do you recover from stuff like that? I think the banking industry has tried to offset that, but I'm not sure they're going to be able to in the near term. I think it's going to take a long term leveling of the playing field, if you will. And that's going to be really difficult for, I think, really the people of privilege, the white people, to recognize and to maybe not get an opportunity when a black person gets an opportunity. So I can see where there can be struggles, and I can also see where I, black people can resent white people for the opportunities lost.

[34:06] KIM LEMITE: So, and I think, I think what I'm looking, you know, when you say reparations, I think it's, how about restoration with awareness of the facts. There are some very real facts about housing, for example, in terms of, right, those disparities. And the more people that go, wow, this is a problem. And if somebody is in that position to do something about it, that's, I think, where the change happens, but that's not at the system level. It's almost like the individual really has to have that, that aha. Moment. Like, wow, I've got to get out of my bubble and I've got to realize that my brother is a need. And again, that gets back to, you know, how are we loving our brother? How are we loving our neighbor? And I don't mean like this big, sort of like, oh, let's just forget about the past. I think, no, let's all listen to it and develop some ability to be compassionate about it, and then the solutions come. So I think, you know, Martin Luther King also said that power without love is oppressive. Right. But love, love with no power is anemic. So if you're just like, gonna be syrupy sweep to me because you feel sorry for me, there's nothing you can do for me. Yeah. And, you know, it's, it's more like, what can I do in the position that I have the role that I play as a, whether it be a white person or even a black person that has advanced and been able to do other, you know, move to a position of power? What can I do? I think is always the question, and have that compassion for people who are still in need because it's a complicated problem. We tried to solve poverty forever, and nobody has sort of ended the war on poverty. I don't think we're going to. I think it's always going to be part and with us. But can we. Do we have the bandwidth to really sort of hold space for people who are, you know, in these situations? I mean, and there's a growing number of white people that are getting caught and sucked into an opioid crisis. Will I be compassionate to that? Right. So I think. I think it's an opportunity, more than anything, for us to begin to be more. To start opening our eyes to these two people as. As human and not just a race.

[36:56] DANIEL ELLIOTT: Yeah. Let me ask you, you mentioned something earlier, and I'm not actually familiar with the quote, but you said something to the effect that love without power is anemic.

[37:09] KIM LEMITE: Yes. So Martin Luther King, if I can look it up, I don't know, I can send it to you, too.

[37:16] DANIEL ELLIOTT: Okay. That's one of the few quotes that. Yeah. As I study Jesus more and more, that. That one just kind of struck me as maybe they didn't really understand what love is, if that's their perspective.

[37:33] KIM LEMITE: Yeah. Love with. So love without power is anemic. When you think about people who are just like, oh, I feel so sorry for you. That sounds awful. I'm so sorry. Then there's nothing. Words.

[37:46] DANIEL ELLIOTT: Those are words I would ask, is that really loving? If someone is just sympathetic, is that truly being loving? Is that really love?

[37:57] KIM LEMITE: I agree. Love is.

[37:59] DANIEL ELLIOTT: I wonder.

[37:59] KIM LEMITE: It's an action word.

[38:02] DANIEL ELLIOTT: You know, that quote, as much as I agree with most everything I hear from Martin Luther King, I wonder, did he really understand what love was? Because I feel like love is, you know, power is a part of love. You know, one. Corinthians 13 talks about faith, hope, and love. The greatest of these is love. You look at Jesus. Did. Did Jesus have all this power? Did he come into the world with all this power? Did he express all of his power? Not from my studies. I think, you know, his power was in the way that he loved people. And, you know, is love someone? Is love something where you just look at someone and you're sympathetic and you do nothing about it? Or is love something where, you know, bring the children to me, where Jesus went out and, you know, with the rich young ruler, he looked at him and he said all these things, you know, you've done one thing, you lack, give up everything and come follow me. So he loved him and he told him the truth, but he didn't go out and cut. He didn't, he didn't, you know, he didn't go out and assert himself. The power was not as objective. And so that's where I struggle with that quote and that concept.

[39:41] KIM LEMITE: And I should say I didn't. I didn't quote him. So it's probably best to go back and maybe read it and. And put it in a little bit of context before we try to analyze. That's my, that was my sort of cliff note version. However, you know, the way I see the point here is that love is really an action. You know, you can. We can say all day, I love you, I love you, I love you. Right? But then if you going out and you're, you know, cheating and doing other things, then where's the love? There's what's your action behind it, right? And if you simply just demand things and expect, expect, and there's no compassion or sympathy or reciprocity, then that's just brow beating. You know, that's just taking. So I, you know, sort of just to sort of what I took from that is that as we think about how can I help? What's the next step in terms of this race conversation? I think part of the love for me is just the fact that I walked up to you and I said, hey, I'm going to be part of this storycorps thing. Can I invite you in to have the conversation? And you said, yes.

[41:00] DANIEL ELLIOTT: I'll freely admit it was something that caused me a lot of anxiety, and it still does when I think about it. But, you know, it's important to you, and you want to have the conversation, and it's outside of my comfort zone, my norm, what I would normally do. But it's a conversation that, you know, if it needs to happen, then that's okay. So it's not an easy conversation for me to have. Not because of the content of it, just, I think the platform is a little bit intimidating for me.

[41:48] KIM LEMITE: Same. That's about all, I think. Same for me, Daniel, because from my perspective, people expect me to say certain things. Not people. Not that I feel pressure. I don't feel pressure from anyone. I mean, I'm. I'm here to represent myself. But even. Even thinking as me, Kim, you know, this black female. Oh, I get this platform, this opportunity, like, what do I want to do with it? There's a little bit of the old me that would like to say, yeah, black power. I want to get in here and really tear it up. But again, that's where I have to lay down my agenda, and I have to fight with the weapons of the. Of a more biblical stance. And I know even in saying biblical, I do have to clarify. A lot of people are mistrusting of even Christianity. Right. Because some people say it's a white man's religion, some black people. And so to clarify there, I would say that, yes, when. When they. When there was a sort of oppression and enslaved Africans, sometimes religion was used to say, well, if you work hard, you'll go to heaven. Right. So there was some manipulation, and then there was, again, the white Jesus, right? Oh, we can never reach that standard. What, do I bleach my skin and dye my hair? I'll never reach that standard. So, you know, and. But then I have to go back to the scriptures and read them and put those in context. Was Jesus really white, or is this just the representation based on who was in social, political power at the time that these movies were made?

[43:39] DANIEL ELLIOTT: Yeah.

[43:40] KIM LEMITE: So I think when people say it's a white man's religion, I don't buy that. When I read the Bible in context.

[43:47] DANIEL ELLIOTT: Right. I agree with you. Because when I look at the ethiopian eunuch, you know, from acts eight, I believe, and I put it into the context of true geography, and I look at who's in Africa, who's in Ethiopia, those are some of the darkest toned people on the planet. There's no way that he could have been a light skinned person. And, you know, I look at the Mediterranean and, you know, Jesus being from, you know, Israel, from. From, you know, he lived in Egypt, from that area, there's no way he was as white as I am. I'm Scotch Irish and I'm about as pale as they come. There's no way his skin tone was the same as mine. He was much darker than I am.

[44:42] KIM LEMITE: He wouldn't. He wouldn't have survived in the Middle east if he was that.

[44:46] DANIEL ELLIOTT: Exactly.

[44:48] KIM LEMITE: Yeah.

[44:49] DANIEL ELLIOTT: So, you know, when I see some of these old, you know, Charlton Heston Ten Commandments where, you know, Moses is this white. There's no way Moses was this super white guy. So I think Americans in general, I would say white America, has made Jesus in the Bible to be this lily Milquetoast white. And it's not, you know, God didn't intend it to be that way. He intended it for all people. And, you know, I think you bring up a great point. I think there needs to be adequate, equal representation in the way that we not just read the Bible, but teach the Bible and show that God's word is for everyone. It's not just for the wealthy. It's not just for the poor. It's not just for any social class. It's not for any one religion. I think on one hand, our history as christians isn't that great. You go back to even a thousand years, a couple thousand years we went off to make these great crusades and tried to force everyone to accept Jesus or die. And, you know, I can't.

[46:22] KIM LEMITE: Pretty ironic.

[46:25] DANIEL ELLIOTT: We just don't have the greatest history there, you know? So, you know, when I hear that, just don't.

[46:37] KIM LEMITE: It's the same when we think about Sunday more, you know, certain areas. Sunday is the most segregated day of the week. The irony of that.

[46:50] DANIEL ELLIOTT: Yeah. Yeah. And it's still. I don't know. I want to say it's getting better and that maybe that's just because that's my frame of reference and my point of view. I want to say it's getting better, but when I look at the news and I see the challenges that we've had with statues and, you know, and social unrest and racial unrest, even in our own city, it makes me pause and say, well, maybe it's not. Maybe we still have a lot of work to do. And I think that's right. I think we still have a lot of work to do. You know, this conversation is between two friends. I'd love for us to have to be able to have this conversation, you know, between people on the streets, you know, someone going to a white church and someone going to an all black church, having this conversation that it looks like a different conversation, I think. But I think it would be one where it could really benefit each. I think if we stop and listen to each other and take a little bit of time to process someone else's perspective.

[48:12] KIM LEMITE: Yeah, I think. I think, you know, I want to thank you again, because you've helped lay a bit of a groundwork here, you know, in us documenting this conversation between two christians. You know, how do we love each other where you and I couldn't be more far apart on the history spectrum. Right. We're literally two sides of the same coin.

[48:40] DANIEL ELLIOTT: Yeah.

[48:41] KIM LEMITE: So thank you.

[48:44] DANIEL ELLIOTT: I think you brought a good. That's a. That's a really good image coin. You've got two different sides of it, but it's still the same coin.

[48:53] KIM LEMITE: Still the same. Made in the US, right?

[48:57] DANIEL ELLIOTT: Both of us. Well, we're made in God's image.

[49:02] KIM LEMITE: Exactly. Made in God's image.

[49:05] DANIEL ELLIOTT: Doesn't matter.

[49:07] KIM LEMITE: Yes, yes. Apart, we are both american. Yeah. Yeah. So I just. I'm so grateful. You have no idea. And I was anxious about the conversation as well. So I imagine we don't have to go to the man on the street. We probably could just tap our brother and sister right at church and say, let's start having more of these kinds of conversations, because we need to get more comfortable.

[49:31] DANIEL ELLIOTT: Yeah.

[49:34] KIM LEMITE: If I can just jump in, we have about a minute left, and I would love to hear a little bit about what gives each of you hope for the future and what keeps you going.

[49:52] DANIEL ELLIOTT: Kim, would you like to go first, or would you like for me to go first?

[49:55] KIM LEMITE: I'll let you go. I'll let you go.

[49:57] DANIEL ELLIOTT: Okay, fair enough. I think what gives me hope for the future, I think the fact that I see others try, that I see others work at it. The fact that Kim and I are in middle age, and we still see work to be done and we're willing to do it, I think. I look at generations that are coming up. I think my kids grew up in Richmond, Virginia, but they didn't go to an all white school. They didn't go to an all black school. They went to a mixed school. And they've got friends of all different backgrounds, religions, orientations, and they're doing great. I look at some of the struggles that we continue to have, and I think we have an opportunity to live like God wants us to live. I think those of us who really want to improve the world can. I don't know. I'm just. I choose to look at opportunities and not failures.

[51:31] KIM LEMITE: Yeah, I would say the same, Daniel. I'm also a glass half full, you know, but it's a choice, right? So when I see our church and I look around, and Daniel and I both were part of a funeral. We lost one of our brothers recently in the church. And looking around in that funeral, it was about our love for that brother. And that was actually the brother that.

[51:58] DANIEL ELLIOTT: I was talking about earlier.

[51:59] KIM LEMITE: Yep. That's what it's about. And we just listened to his wife sing, and that was a Negro spiritual that she sung. And, you know, we all were touched by that because of the love in our heart for that brother. And nobody was like, oh, I don't know that song or what is she doing? You know, that was, you know, that's cultural. But the culture didn't matter. It was the heart that mattered. And I know in first John 316, this is how we know what love is, that Jesus Christ laid down his life for us, and we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers and sisters. And I know Daniel would do that for me. When we say lives and we put down our busyness, we put down our phones, and he said, yes, I'll have this conversation with you, Kim. That's what I mean. That's what it's about.

[52:51] DANIEL ELLIOTT: There.