Kimberly Murphy and Alexis Polen

00:02 Hi, my name is Alexis Polen. I am 38 years old. Today's date is Wednesday, March 17th, 2021. I am recording from Hugo Minnesota, with Kimberly Murphy, who is my colleague at the administration for Children and Families, which is part of the US Department of Health and Human Services.

00:24 Hi, my name is Doctor, Kimberly Murphy and I am 44 years. Old. Today is Wednesday, March 17th, 2021. I am recording with Alexis Polen.

00:36 Who is my colleague and Regional liaison in the office of trafficking in persons in the administration for children and families in the US Department of Health and Human Services?

00:48 Kimberly, you are a doctor and that's something that you just accomplished recently. So again, thank you very much. How were you introduced to anti-traffic? You were so you and I we work together. I'm with a person you're with a Children's Bureau. You're both working. The Regents which is to say, we're not headquartered in DC or in different communities in the United States. How are you introduced to anti-trafficking work? How did you get into it? Yes. Well, I would say I was introduced to anti-trafficking work before. I really even knew what trafficking human trafficking was. I started my career over 20 years ago. I came out of Community College here in Delaware. And you know, when you're doing him a service.

01:47 Is it Community College? They have you do internships and I started out doing internships at Ferris the local.

01:56 School for boys, that are judicate it. I did one there. And then I also did an internship and then some volunteer work at shelters for women and children. And I think I saw a lot there that I now know could have been trafficking most certainly after that, when I started my career. I started working at a group home for adolescence, run by Catholic Charities in Wilmington Delaware. And I know for sure that some of what I've seen now would be considered trafficking, especially with how some of the trafficking terminology and definitions of changed in the laws throughout the years. What did you think of the time? I know you've had some Gears of perspective. You've been working in the field of child welfare, and human trafficking and now know what human trafficking is your call? What you thought at the time.

02:56 I think, I, I think I saw, or what I thought at the time was that it was people involved in domestic violence. I think that I saw young people who were being taken advantage of sexually and

03:19 I thought.

03:23 Maybe they had some developmental or social delays that were making them.

03:33 Targeted by other young people, but I wasn't quite sure. You know, I just didn't term it as trafficking or it's been adults. They might have even been targeted by adults. I saw young people who were engaged in survival sex just to be able to get by, especially as they aged out of foster care or just other being taken advantage of,

04:03 Labor wise, in terms of taking jobs that

04:08 You know, they weren't getting a paycheck for me from working with a service provider working directly with individuals to working for the government on these issues.

04:23 So I I really enjoyed the work that I did working in the group home for adolescence. And from there. I went into nonprofit work as an independent living provider and end that nonprofit held the contract with the state government for Independent Living which is funded through chasing the TV program. The John H chafee Independent Living Program. And so that was sort of my introduction to government is where I started working with a division of family service work caseworkers. I'm from that position. I went to the state into the investigation unit into DFS the Division of Family Services.

05:08 I'm sorry. What was that? In-depth for the state of Delaware Union? The state of Delaware in the Division of Family Services and I didn't best vacations for a couple of years and then went into management support services into the contract unit. And and that was my introduction to Grants and contracts at the state and federal level. And that's how I got into Federal service.

05:40 Do you mind, if I ask you some questions about the difference between working for the service provider working for the state? And I'll your federal perception. Sure. That you you seem to have Works along the Spectrum when it comes to service provision for for child, welfare and have game subject matter expertise, when it comes to child welfare. And those who have been victimized by a human trafficking. What do you

06:12 What do you wish you knew? Either at the state level newer, Kansas State, or you're working the Catholic Charities? What do you wish you knew then that, you know, now if I do everything that I did, when I worked at the state and local level, I would have been a much better caseworker working with clients. I would have been able to better engage them. I would have been able to

06:39 I think be better and accessing services and individualizing service needs. What do you wish the federal government had known as sometimes for me as a federal employee thing as easy for for me, or for us if I can speak for you? A little bit to look at policies to think about what we think people need. But, you know, I personally have never been a case manager. I don't have that front-line experience and as a result was a lot. I don't know. And so what, what do you wish that more people the federal government new song? You're 3 years. Experience from different angles.

07:19 I don't really know how to answer that.

07:33 Maybe.

07:35 That sometimes there are barriers that people put up with in.

07:44 Systems in within agencies that prevent certain people from being engaged in their own cases.

07:54 Yeah.

07:57 So how have your perceptions about children human trafficking changed in the last few years?

08:06 In the last few years, I think.

08:11 You know.

08:13 We had the passage the reauthorization of the trafficking victims protection act and that. That's what have redefined. What a sex trafficking, child sex trafficking victim is and I think that I've really become an advocate for children under the age of 18, cannot consent to a commercial sex act. There's no such thing as a child prostitute. And so my perspective has become much stronger over the last couple years in in really taking that

08:53 Legislation and after it was passed and learning about that. And then becoming an advocate and having to enforce that and educate, others about that. Yeah, I agree to learn more about human trafficking. I think that is one of the areas, particularly, when I engage with people who just don't know much about it at all, think I start off by saying it's no such thing as a child prostitute, like wrap your head around that, for pay.

09:31 Do you think that people still have a hard time wrapping their head around that? Absolutely, I think about it, but I think it's a strange but you know, when you have to draw the line somewhere, somehow when you determine who's a child who is an adult and that it comes down to, in most cases. Just what your ages up. Know, you're 18. Now, you're an adult. Now. You're a child. I think people still thinks of themselves. They seem precocious like they know what they're doing. I think a lot of it has to do with

10:15 Sexualizing of women in particular, you know not to get us to off track with kind of like the Lolita thinking. Well, you know, she's a child, but she should. She seduced there's a lot of going on a culturally Etc that make it hard for people to understand what it means to engage in survival star. You know what it means to

10:47 Two to be somebody under the age of 18, who is being sexually exploited.

10:55 Absolutely.

10:58 What misperceptions about child trafficking persist today? So we're just touching on other other misperceptions.

11:06 That you think I'm in your work.

11:09 I think one that has recently come up for me is that the government agencies are working in silos? I do think that, that probably was the case several years ago. But I think that especially in our region and Region 3. I'm going to give a shout out to or Region 3 anti-federal interagency, anti-trafficking task force. Because I think that there's been a lot of Advocates and federal employees and state employees and local employees and have done. A lot of hard work to make sure that that is not the case that we are serving survivors at and connecting with each other and making sure that their needs are met and that we can connect them even across dress state and federal and local jurisdictions.

12:07 Yeah, I agree. There seems to have been a really big question. This is come out. I think financially, as well from the Department of Justice. A bit to make sure that when there is a Statewide anti-trafficking strategy or approach that included within it is a multidisciplinary team, right? So meeting people from different sectors, the weather that's breaking down the silos that happened in the state or the federal government etcetera. You need to have, of course, people who are pursuing traffickers thinking about it from a prosecutorial angle. But you also need a public health approach thinking about it from that influence, whether or not somebody may be more at risk of trafficking. So making sure you're also engaging with social workers and Hospital systems.

13:07 The whole spectrum of first-line responders also with victims Advocates etcetera and end-all. So yeah, I agree that at the federal level. I think we're doing better. So for example, the Department of Health and Human Services, Works closely with the Department of Justice to make sure that we're sharing information. We're not overly siloed and then we are trying really hard to do to my office to work with people like you who are subject matter experts when it comes to town welfare in the Children's Bureau, but also have more engaged. And also what are the programs in Delaware? Where are the programs in Maryland or Virginia or West Virginia or DC? What are the issues that they're staying? And how can we be more supportive? How can we connect with her to just a sign of? How can we work with Children's Bureau? But I'll be honest, having said that I do think that we could strengthen those ties even more like I agree Region 3. I think it's a really good job and

14:07 Just got to step into that, great partnership. That you have established with Office of the assistant, secretary for health, or Ash and others, which is amazing, but I do think that

14:21 I think there's opportunity to take it further and we just to give them another shout out with our partnership. We just finished the inaugural anti-trafficking Summit, Regional anti-trafficking Summit, and out of that partnership. We were able to to develop the regional interagency collaborative. They're calling themselves. The Rick and this is a group that came out of the planning committee for the summit that and I'll girl Summit that we do plan to hold every year. Annually, what they're planning to do there. A group of

15:03 Anti-trafficking subject matter experts and people that are working in the field or somehow come in contact with victims and survivors and the planning to start their own nonprofit and continue on with planning future Summits, but also work together to continue their anti-trafficking efforts.

15:28 Speaking of which I thinking about which is amazing because it didn't exist before being able to bring together. So we say, Region 3, we mean, Pennsylvania, West Virginia, Virginia, Maryland, Delaware and the District of Columbia and we haven't at least a c h s perspective. Been able to bring professionals Allied professionals survivors of trafficking students University from those states does Mid-Atlantic States together to talk about shared issue, shared challenges, information, sharing networking. So that's an enormous accomplishment. And I think you look forward to seeing the strengthened ties.

16:17 Which is a more recent we have tribes that have gone from being a state, recognized to be in federally recognized in 2017 and 18.

16:28 It sounds like a good opportunity to bring them planning mess. I might as well.

16:35 I'm going back to silos a little bit. I wanted to switch gears for a second, talk about family. First. I just lie because one thing I know as a regional is on for their chip is that every state across the country struggling, a little bit with how they're going to implement Family. First legislation is so when we think about how to coordinate with states to help them with their share of challenges, successes, etcetera. I also think about family first and when I owe you, I think of you is one of the people who are most knowledgeable on this topic than almost anyone. I really have ever met. And I do feel like you have no knowledge about it. I am curious how you were able to see. The need to hone in on the intersection of Families, First legislation, and being able to provide high-quality services to

17:33 In residential, you know, settings to victims of sex trafficking and just how did you pull it out? I would like to hear more about how you pulled it all together for your dissertation and how it was playing out at work as well. I do a lot of drink planning work with my work, primarily with the Commonwealth of Virginia. And so I meet with them on a regular basis, every two weeks to drink planning for the work that they do in the program that they have a child welfare program that they have. And I listen to them. And what with her questions are and what their needs are. And I also have that congregate care background. So I knew that when I saw the provisions that are in the family, first legislation that it was going to be a challenge for them to, to implement and of course, the one that I'm talking about are the provisions related to congregate Care by September of this year 2021.

18:34 States are being asked to reduce the number of children, that are, that are placed in foster care, in congregate care facilities and

18:45 They have the option to continue to fund these congregate care facilities. As long as they, they meet certain criteria, one of the criteria. One of the ways that they or pathway is, I'll say that they, that they offer that the legislation offers is through special populations and one of the special populations within the within that particular provision is child victims of sex trafficking and Children at Risk of being trafficked.

19:24 So, what do you think is the biggest struggle that states are having right now, in terms of understanding?

19:33 How to?

19:37 Ensure that they are still services to victims of sex trafficking, right? But also prioritize everything else. It has to be prioritized under Family First and everything else that goes into child welfare.

19:51 I think the biggest struggle that they're having right now, you know, even before family families, first pass in the other legislation that has been passed, you know, they just passed the division division, acts Consolidated, Appropriations act last Thursday, and that's going to put it in place, new requirements for State Child, Welfare agencies in. And even before the pandemic, even before, that was happening child. Welfare agencies were already overwhelmed with Federal requirements and limited resources, and I think covid has just really

20:37 Made that made it a lot worse for them. And one of the challenges that I see moving forward is Staff, retention staff, burnout recruitment of new staff. I think that they're going to be challenged in implementing any new requirements. If they can't keep staff on board in the agencies and keep them trained and knowledgeable about the job that they're doing and that's been a challenge. Can you talk a little bit more about limited resources?

21:12 Unlimited resources in general or specific to trafficking trafficking?

21:20 So, it's interesting because there's a slide that I provide in my in my presentation, on my dissertation.

21:33 The talks about the lack of trafficking anti-trafficking resources in state budgets and there are no.

21:46 And the side I pulled out in 2019. There are no resources in the state budget in Region. 3 states for anti-trafficking efforts, more recently. Somebody told me about legislation that was passed at the state level in Pennsylvania that when people get are brought in for trafficking convicted of trafficking, and they get find that that money will go into

22:16 You know, pot that that the state can draw from to service victims. That's the only one that I'm aware of. Other than that. There are no allocations in state budgets for anti-trafficking resources in reach in our Region 3 States.

22:35 Stephanie Jones. Yeah, either for adults, or for for children.

22:41 In some states across the country, have both. They have adult funding for Adult Services for anti-trafficking services and some have allocation set aside for child services and some have both.

23:01 How do and that way, I can imagine some the answer, but I'd like to hear you talk about it. How do limited resources impact? The ability of child welfare systems, to protect foster children from exploitation.

23:15 You know, I think when they have limited resources in limited Staff & Staff time, they have to pick and choose where to prioritize their efforts. And we are starting to hear things from staff in the agencies that are saying, you know, we have to prioritize, we have to choose whether or not to take her staff and put them into investigations or do. We keep them in the foster care unit because we just don't have enough staff to go around and somebody is going to lose out. So, if you take stuff from foster care and put them on Investigation, you're prioritizing the front end. The safety of the children, which should always be the case. You want to make sure. You know, first and foremost the children are you know, that they're protected and safe, but then you're taking away, Staffing Resources for them to be able to work with the children and use that are already in foster care.

24:15 Maybe they're in a safe location, but they have other needs that are now may not be able to be met because

24:23 Staffing Resources. Limited Staffing, Resources.

24:29 Tell me how has your career blood you to your current studies. As I mentioned at the top of our talking, you are now a doctor.

24:40 How did that come to pass?

24:47 I was on the inside, the Region's Ray anti-trafficking, Federal interagency anti-trafficking, task force. That's a mouthful. And, you know, I think it's a time. We were trying to figure out how we could be most helpful to the states in our region. In terms of

25:09 You know, what kind of work we would do across agency across the different agencies that were represented on the task force and the family. I knew the family first, legislation was coming out. I knew states were going to have a limited time. To implement the congregate care provisions. And I knew that they were going to be asking a lot of questions. I was interested in the topic. I was already a subject matter expert at that point on child trafficking. And so, I think it just naturally.

25:42 You know, led to me choosing that as the topic of my dissertation.

25:48 What do you want to do with what you have found, you know, in terms of your

25:55 Conclusions related to your baby should say. First what your dissertation topic is high quality residential care and supportive services for child victims of sex trafficking and Children at Risk of being trafficked. So what do you plan to do next to that information?

26:17 I'm trying to share it out as much as I can. I have a schedule of webinars coming up where I'm sharing some of my, the findings of my research when they're making decisions about congregate care. I think some have already chosen to go forward and use the special populations pathway as a way to maintain their congregate care. And I think they're looking at this population. I think some states have already said, you know, we are going to move forward and use that as a way to keep funding our congregate care, and we are going to be careful about how we

27:09 Determine what is considered a high quality residential facility? And, and, and that's basically the message that I want to get out there. I want to make sure that as states are making these decisions about how to fund their congregate care that. Did they really consider these findings and that I shouldn't just be housing for young people. Especially children in foster care. All children, in foster care are at risk for for trafficking. And I do think that they all fit into that category. And I really want space to think about making sure that that their facilities are and their staff or trauma-informed.

27:59 And that they are providing Supportive Services like mentoring and making sure that young people are are making connections with adults supportive and loving adults in their life. So that they have that connection especially as they move into adulthood.

28:21 Have you spot? Are you doing any presentations or information sharing with other kind of project Specialist or program specialist at Children's Bureau?

28:33 No, I don't think I have in the past. I've done some presentations around Chaffey with Catherine. He's in the Children's Bureau not I don't have anything coming up.

28:48 Be, we can talk more about that later, cuz I think that

28:53 You said, you mention you're doing some webinar. So I assume that's for people to state level.

28:58 I have some one coming up with Wilmington University through their webinar series and one coming up with the National Council on family relations. That's not good education. Really.

29:18 Can you talk a little bit about the Wilmington University human trafficking? They have a certificate program that runs is the program administrator for that particular certificate program. And she also normally has a summit every year in the summer. When human trafficking on the campus this year. It had to be cancelled, or I should say, last year. It had to be canceled because of the pandemic and so what she did instead was told monthly monthly webinars and so once every month since usually the last Tuesday of the month, she'll have to have an aura during that died. One at 10 a.m. And one at 2 p.m.

30:11 That's awesome. It's good to know.

30:17 So,

30:19 What is your future hold?

30:27 Undetermined at this.

30:31 I am committed to my work on the Region, 3 Federal interagency task force. So whatever I do, I think I'd like to.

30:46 Keep my connections there, and continue the work that we're doing.

30:51 Do you have any suggestions about?

30:56 I just know region Regional kind of work that could be done and Outreach.

31:05 I know that we are also talking about doing a webinar series. Okay, and before the pandemic, one thing that we were doing, I think we always had a great turnout and was successful where the film screenings and we've held them at a different locations. And usually had a panel of presenters, come out and answer questions for folks after the film screening, and they were always very, very successful.

31:41 I think to the other thing that has been helpful with the federal interest in addition to awareness and education events. It's been helpful to make those connections with the other Specialists or staff and other federal agencies because sometimes they'll have a case or I'll have a case that comes into a state agency or somebody has a question or there's a concern about how services are being provided and we can we can help problem solve those cases, we can get the right people involved make the connections, between the people who need to be involved to get them connected to one another. And sometimes people just aren't aware of the services that are that are out there and available and what people are eligible to were able to really help make those connections, but I'm interested in hearing from you about what you're the regional liaison, and I know that you work with all the other

32:41 Region, what do you envision in terms of the future for our task force, in our region? And how do you think other regions could be doing work? So, interesting question Region 3. So I'm in Atlantic has done so much in the last year or so. You all have two groups run is starting at the federal level for information sharing and then the other one is now really grappling with inviting in States and Professionals of lived experience and try to more attack issues that could be elevated by the states themselves to see if there can be answers to the local answers to local problem. And because there is this great leadership and region three of you and Trish and Chris and others. For me. I am actually with Region 3 of Bitten.

33:41 Their hands off and let him a good thing. Roll more of a supportive role when it comes to knowing what resource is my office could or could not leverage in support of your all's work. So, if your example with Trish, I've been helping her recently and that there's a vision for the rick as you talked about earlier being more, more Survivor informed, in its planning when it comes to events. And so, just working with her, what that means to be inviting people in in, in paying them for their time being very transparent about the ask in terms of, will you consult for us and lend us your new subject matter expertise and making sure that we have things in place in terms of an understanding of what the labor will be. And what the compensation will be. What is the ask? What is the direction? What is the dream?

34:38 I do think that when you work with individuals with lived experience with trafficking that it's very important to have everything related to labor and money is clear as possible. I think that would be nice or everybody all of the time. This is necessarily special on some people that experience. But we're talking, you know, when you talk about human trafficking, you talk about individuals who have a very sort of specialized trauma-related to commercial exploitation soon. As soon as you're talking about money. I think you need to be really clear and thoughtful about your terms and terms of what we're asking people to do and how they're going to be compensated for their time and their labor and are helping of us. Right? Through Region 3, a little bit more in terms of achieving your all stuff identified goals that I really think you're wonderful in that area when we liquor out across the rest of the country. I am the one Regional person for the for the country and so and it is

35:38 Not the entirety of my job. It's about 1 1/3 of my job. So there is no equivalent of the wrecker, you know, a task force for some about half of the Region's out there. You'll have the country and so I would like to see

35:58 My office, my role being able to help start to prop up those groups. I think it's great. If we can find somebody who's not necessary for my office to do it. I don't think it has to be me. But if there's not somebody who's given the opportunity to do it or they don't have the time or they don't have the resources or whatever it is. I do think it's a

36:21 Something that I'd like to be able to to lend support to, but I first and foremost want to be able to demonstrate that when you have these Regional groups. Again that's people from a bunch of different sectors in a limited geography coming together, try to work on human trafficking issues. I want to be able to demonstrate, that's not a meeting for a meeting sick, that's actionable. So I don't want to spread myself too thin in terms of just having people meet, you know, and it's sort of everyone's looking. Like, what, what do we do next? I am started a group for the Region 5 is the Midwest. So that's a Minnesota where I live, Wisconsin, Michigan, Ohio, Indiana in Illinois, and we did, and I don't know. Another reason that has done this, we have made sure to invite in tribal Nations, native Community communities, and urban Indian Community.

37:21 Innjoo, be regional meeting. So that were really trying to represent.

37:30 The different geopolitical coverage of of that land mass basically, also inviting and federal employees state employees. If there's not a state employee working on a Statewide anti-trafficking effort than in, some cases have nonprofits, who are may be stepping into the boy, doing that work or a task force coordinate or something like that. Inviting them in, which means we have a lot of people in the group and so it's a challenge. Also to make sure that anything can be done in a short. Of time, don't want to waste anybody's time. So I really want to focus on the learning experience of trying to support that group. Get the ball rolling but make sure it's actual value to the members before spend expanding into other regions. So, everything's kind of shaking a little bit. If its own fact that I would say,

38:22 My office on Arpino in terms of what resources we have a huge office at all. I think it's clear that 1 people were together and trafficking more can be done, you know.

38:43 Not to sound corny of teamwork. Friend course, teamwork is good for everybody, most of the time, but if it's early in the area of traffic seems to be necessary because you just touch up on so many different types of services and people, you know, that you need to be talking to local law enforcement. You need to be talking to a task force leader. You need to be talking to the child, protective services and child welfare to work on a case. You need to understand that States laws, need to understand where that state is. In terms of federal law on a state-level knowing with their political will is, you know, are they where they in terms of their resources? Do they have the resources to expand? Its you? We didn't talk very much about Labor trafficking, you know, that's one area Nationwide where there's just not a lot of infrastructure in place to make sure that adult and child victims of Labor trafficking music.

39:43 Route for them to seek Justice and to also be provided Services, no matter where they are, in a rural area, urban area. So you really, it does require a team of people at the state level and then Federal level all hands on deck a bit sometimes. Too, to make sure that a single person is getting services, but they have the right to receive. And so I have seen some

40:12 Good outcomes, you know, for example, we recently had a case bubble up to the surface for us. Where the child was trafficking in Colorado, but they had time did intersected with HHS Human Services services in the past. And so there was a lot of

40:37 Their dialogue in terms of, how can we not only share all the relevant case? Information would do it in a way in which you're protecting the privacy of the child. And then also, you know, how quickly can we find the right people in the state of Colorado, which dress like Ali was very fast because we have a working with people and the AG's office and other offices in Colorado, how quickly can meet, you know, Elevate this with them and then how quickly can they get together to talk about what they're going to do about the case? Because it's in the state of Colorado. So, you know, it's, you have all these Partners working together, trying to figure out who's going to do what. But it's always really heartening to know that everyone's on the same side of trying to do, right by the person who's reaching out and help in this case, a child in Colorado. So,

41:29 I would say it's working out. It is sometimes surprising how many hands, it takes a lift. But just yeah, just continue on the path of coordination in the hopes of further information sharing in the ability to really at its most basic, basic Reach people when you need to reach them.

41:49 I think too that the more people that we can get to be trained on trauma-informed, principles.

41:59 The more the better people will start working together and that the silos will continue to break down and it will get easier to access Services, assuming the funding king of person-centered services, you know.

42:21 I can't imagine what it's like to be a person to have undergone.

42:26 Something like a real traumatic event and then have to interface with us as the government to get what they need advocate for themselves, and a super bureaucratic system. Bunch of people, different style has like, how, you know, it's it's basically asking if a person at their most vulnerable to figure out how to further protect themselves, I think the government sometimes those great job of but can improve and I'm just thinking about how do we make sure that the person really in this case US citizens are clients, money. Our clients are the US citizen. So in this case, the citizen, the clients needed her Services, how do we make sure that we're setting ring ourselves around, being able to serve them as opposed to them figuring out how to get what they need from us. And it's just, it's it's a struggle.

43:19 How long the Spectrum? Yeah, and if they get turned away by somebody, you know, that's it might not come. That's right. Part of what can

43:35 Read mistrust comes into the government. What are these people doing for me? Can they show me that they've been doing something for me? They take money from me in the form of taxes. But where are they giving back? And it's important to be able to demonstrate that were. We're focused on them and they were were able to give back.

43:57 You had asked me about something earlier, and I forgot to include this. In my answer. You had asked me whether or not I had done any presentations with other CB staff and I did just do one at the summit that I was talking about earlier. I was, I was actually the moderator for it, but I was able to get Rebecca old war who was as far as a penetration adoption, foster care. Now since reporting system administrator, that's the data system that states are there, certain data elements that we were required states to collect and report to us. And that's the system that is used. And we have some data elements related to trafficking that have come out that our state, the states are going to be required to collect information about child, child trafficking victims and start reporting that to us and she presented that information at the summit that we had, you know.

44:57 Summit that I talked about along with the Commonwealth of Virginia, who talked about how they are building incorporating. These data elements into their third system, so that they can collect them and the assessment process. Not only do they have to build these, you know, update their systems to have the capacity to be able to collect the information. They also need to train the workers to go out and assess victims of trafficking, so that they have the information to input in. So, Virginia talked about that and that was a great presentation.

45:36 You know, there is a group, it is actually talking about Colorado again that they have put the paper and Financial Resources behind a group called The National compendium for state-run anti-trafficking initiatives and it is a group that's close to just people who work on Statewide anti-trafficking finishes. So, with some additional folks, like me some Regional person just working on trafficking, Etc. And it's funny that you bring this up because today

46:09 I think around 5 to 10, Stateside. We really want to talk about data and we talked about it and just trying to figure out how to better the world of face data collection. And part of the reason why we need it besides just the timely, you know, it's the timely provision of services, right? I mean data can help with the timeliness of being able to provide services, but our ability to know how many people are being traffic and trafficking the prevalence. Because if we don't have Data Systems to collect whether or not somebody, you know, been a victim of Labor or sex trafficking, how do you, how would we ever know how many people have experienced it? And then you have service, interesting additional problem?

47:09 They have seen echoed a little bit with covid, 2, which is that if you are a state or a community, that is very good for assessing people to see if they're victims of trafficking, you're going to find more victims of trafficking because you're looking for them. Right? That's a hotspot. It's like somebody, you know, if you're doing a ton of testing for covid, you say, oh, wow, what time? They covid test cases they have out there. They must really have a bigger issue with communal spread is if they have a bigger issue with communal spread or is it that they have a better test. And so again going back to the conversation about resources and understanding how much money is needed it. For what it all starts with sometimes something that can feel as unsexy right as data and databases. You know, I have a database, I'm a certain state has a database.

48:08 This extra thing. If we're to update my database, it's why amount of money. How do I make the case to my state who, you know, might be on really hard times. Economically is also dealing with an opioid issues or other enormous crazy. How you been? This is the priority just take my database, right? But it speeds like that little is like that little grain of sand somehow mixed up in Beach. Like it's

48:41 It has to be reckoned with.

48:46 Yeah, and I didn't realize though that I had thought I was working on data a couple years ago and I didn't realize I was waiting for the legislation that talks about required reporting. And first I knew there was a hiccup in terms of requiring, the state to actually report the data. There was some controversy about none of this early, the trafficking data collection. Peace, but other Provisions, it was related. The hiccup is related to the travel related elements. There was a few different elements in there that I think were causing the holdup, but yes that has passed and they are required to

49:39 Will be required to.

49:43 Report on those data elements in there. I forgot the name of those reports. They turn into Stevie. I'll be interested to know about it. You know. That's going to be

50:02 Good information for us.

50:07 I think it will be. Yeah, and hopefully,

50:11 Hopefully, they'll be able to start using some of that data.

50:16 To get more State funding.

50:19 Supportive therapy ocean, and services.

50:27 Yeah, it's Saturday. It's like a chicken-and-egg problem. You need to make the kids for funding, but you need funding like the day. Yeah, that's something else that we hear about is that some of the data systems that states are working with her, you know, older Legacy systems that, you know, you there may not be programmers, enough programmers available to work on them.

51:00 There's the answer to yo.

51:03 Office on trafficking in persons is working. I'm not an expert on. So, You Know,

51:11 I think it's an anti-trafficking information system. The acronym are crazy right now. It's about agents and it is working on kind of trying to figure out a centralised system for collecting information on trafficking. I don't know how that would work without car seats that are real, but it's just to say, I just, I know it's a problem that my my office is really focusing on we have some amazing, keep on staff. Are truly much more data, a true data analyst professionals and I'm really excited to see where that's going to go. And how will that be for both foreign and domestic victims of trafficking?

51:55 It'll be interesting to see if we could compare the data that you have in the in your system. How that would interface, how that would work with the victims that have been identified in the Child, Welfare Information Systems, lots to do.

52:23 Yeah, I think we're done.

52:28 Thank you for the interview today. Alexis. I think you can really, I hope I was able to

52:36 I don't know, but I hope I was able to get to some of the things. I know you would like to talk about.

52:42 You did you did and I hope I was able to get it, some of the things you were able to talk about. I'm sure.