Krishna Pakala and Anne Hamby

[00:03] ANNE HAMBY: My name is Anne Hamby. I'm 36 years old. Today's date is Sunday, August 21, 2022. I'm in Boise, Idaho. I'm interviewing Krishna, who is my colleague and friend.

[00:17] KRISHNA PAKALA: Hello. I'm Krishna Pakala. I'm 40 years old. Today is Sunday, August 21, 2022. We are in Boise, Idaho. I'm interviewing my colleague, Anne Hamby.

[00:32] ANNE HAMBY: Okay, well, let's start with a question going way, way back. Krishna, what's your earliest memory?

[00:40] KRISHNA PAKALA: That's a fun one. So, when we were growing up as kids, most of my cousins, everybody, we were in the same location or close by to each other that we could go to my grandparents place for all the festivals. And we have so many in our hindu culture that we celebrate all of them as a big, big family. So what was exciting about those was at each of those festivals, as soon as we wake up and we take a shower and put on new clothes, my grandparents would come in and give these brand new currency notes, indian rupees, which was not a lot, but it was something that we would look forward to. And because they had so many grandchildren, they were only giving a certain amount, and it would be the same for everybody. And we would then use that to buy candy or something fun. So that was something that I really cherished. And unfortunately, we don't have that ritual anymore because we don't have our grandparents amongst us. But I feel like that has given me a sense of kind of giving back in small ways and helping everybody enjoy those festivals together. Cool. So I have something for you, Anne, that I wanted to know. What are you most proud of?

[02:14] ANNE HAMBY: So this may not be a surprise. I think the accomplishment of which I'm most proud is getting tenure. So I'm now an associate professor, actually, as of, I guess, just a few days ago when the semester start or when our contract started. But it really takes so much time and persistence. And I remember from the moment I started my graduate program, being told by the tenure track faculty there and being educated about what tenure is. And when you learn eventually that it's when you apply for it, you either get it and you have a job for life, essentially, or you don't get it, and then you're fired and you have to go and find another job. And so it's kind of cutthroat. And it's not just the getting of that. I'm so proud. It's really the journey to get there. Because all throughout graduate school and then early years as an assistant professor, I can, like, there were countless nights where I would just lay awake thinking, oh, my goodness, am I ever going to be able to do this? You know, it's. It takes so much work. I don't have the number of publications accounting predicting because it's years and years in the making. I know I don't have to tell you this, but just the amount of effort on the research side and then also on the teaching side, because tenure, maybe for those who don't know, is reflected or you're evaluated based on several criteria, and some of them are institution specific, but in general, it's your research. Are you a productive researcher? Are you a effective educator based on your students ratings, the amount of stress over, you know, what are the students going to say about me this time, knowing that every little, you know, ding on my evaluations could reflect poorly on me for tenure? And so I would say that I've pursued my career for intrinsic reasons. I really do enjoy it. But every decision and every action in the back of the head, from what you say to tenured colleagues, it relates to, am I going to be able to get tenure? And then, now that I finally have it, been sort of surreal.

[04:35] KRISHNA PAKALA: Yeah. Congratulations. I know you as a colleague. You totally deserve it, and your students love you.

[04:41] ANNE HAMBY: And I know that you're on track to get it here pretty soon. So I will look forward to hearing your thoughts about that experience once it happens to you.

[04:52] KRISHNA PAKALA: Sure.

[04:53] ANNE HAMBY: So what have been some of the happiest moments in your life or saddest moments?

[04:59] KRISHNA PAKALA: Yeah, I think definitely the happiest were once where I didn't give myself a chance, for example, getting my PhD, which there were several moments in my life where I wanted to give up. So that journey where I eventually got it and how much that means to my family and the opportunities that entail. And, you know, while there is prestige with the degree, but it's more so that it has taught me to persevere and do it for my family. The other thing that I think of is having our two children. So, as, you know, we were wanting to have kids. My wife has this situation, a condition which was very difficult for us to get pregnant, and then to the point where the doctors didn't give us a chance. And that was a big heartbreak for us. We wanted to try every different treatment possible. And then it so happened one day she became pregnant out of the blue, which was very exciting. And then now we have two beautiful children, boy and a girl. The other one would be, I would say, marrying my wife, because that in India, being brought up in a culture where arranged marriage is kind of the norm. You're kind of taking a chance on each other. And I'm glad that I have my wife, Aparna, in my life. Some of the ones that I really feel when I think about the other side of the happiness, which is feeling sad, was when my grandmother died recently. You know, I still have this memory where I went few years back in India. It was, I think, 2015 or 2016, where I asked her to come to the US, and she didn't even have a passport. So first we had to get her a passport and then get her to the visa consulate and get her the visa. And then my hope was to bring her here and just have her experience the culture. But unfortunately, Covid hit, and then she died unexpectedly recently. The other one I think. I think about when I talk about two beautiful children is we probably could have had another child. My wife had a terrible miscarriage between my son and daughter, which we still remember. That was a very, very hard time. She had to struggle through a lot, emotionally and physically, and it was her first experience. And that is something that I always kind of remember. And I think the last one, which talks about being an international faculty, international person in the US, is even though the boundaries are easily can be surpassed with flights and everything. But then, because of the politics, because of the visa issues, we can't travel. As you know, I almost lost my father to Covid, but my deepest regret was I could not be there when my mom and my dad needed the most because I couldn't travel. But fortunately, they are alive and healthy, and they recently visited me. But that is something that I kind of feel sad about whenever I think about being away from family. Thank you for asking those questions and making me relive some of those happy and sad moments. So I have a question for you. Are there things about me that you have always wanted to know but have never asked?

[08:49] ANNE HAMBY: So, yes, and I guess this is the perfect forum for that. Jumping off of your experience, having an international background. This is kind of a tough question, but I guess I've. I've wondered, have you experienced any kind of racism or any kind of bigotry? I'm sure you have, I guess. But I've always wondered, and it's not really the kind of thing you can ask in a professional context, you know, because I'm not right. Like, I'm american, I'm white. I, like, fit into the dominant majority. And so, yeah, I guess I've just been curious about that aspect of your experience.

[09:25] KRISHNA PAKALA: Yeah, I mean, this is my. What 19th year being in the US. When I initially came to the US, I would say that was not a thing that I was even experiencing or I ever felt that would be something that would happen. But what I have observed is over the period of the time, because of the change in political climate and just how people want to, instead of rallying together towards a cause, they are actually fighting more and there are people who are instigating it. I think that is unnecessarily putting the racism and everything in a new light. I'm not saying the others haven't experienced, but I felt welcomed for several years being in the US. But I started observing slowly that people have changed because suddenly they are showing what they were thinking all these time, because they feel like there is this impetus that your freedom of speech can mean, that you can be rude to people, that you can be suddenly saying the same neighbor who was welcome and who you thought was contributing to the community suddenly is snatching your opportunities away. So I would say that is something that I have seen a culture shift recently. Professionally, I think it is probably one of those invisible demons that we have in my own personal professional life, I have seen that come into play. But it takes, I would say, a lot of guts or proof to prove that it is racism. In fact, people will suddenly actually go against you if you start calling out people on. But I think it exists. I think it's about how you educate those people who have made that mistake and helped them eventually come on your side. That's the best thing you could do. I mean, in one of our famous political leaders, Gandhi used to say, if somebody slaps on one side, you show the other side. And the idea is eventually they will know that they have done the wrong thing and you are trying to be strong among all those. I ideally want my kids who are born here, who are us citizens, to grow up in a place where racism is not a thing anymore, that people can come together again and just appreciate the diversity and start be inclusive.

[12:02] ANNE HAMBY: I will say just through knowing you, I have expanded my sort of awareness just how much of our even calendar is dictated by christian holidays, right? And it's one very narrow view of the world. And so I appreciate that about you. And I would say you're great at not. It's very easy in this call out culture to be like, wait, you can't say that. That's not right. That's not PC. You're very soft spoken in how you, you don't even correct people. I think you just are a great example of, like, you educate. You're like an ambassador. So, anyway, just wanted to riff off that a little bit.

[12:47] KRISHNA PAKALA: Thank you.

[12:51] ANNE HAMBY: Okay, so what are the most important lessons you have learned in life?

[13:00] KRISHNA PAKALA: This might be a cliche, but there is no substitution for hard work. I have seen that, you know, somebody who never thought, who get a PhD or never thought they would be in a research intensive or research being required as a part of their position. I think all of that needed persistence and also hard work so that you can overcome some of the deficiencies you might have compared to the others. The others might have had more time, or they, from the beginning, wanted to be in this role so they are more prepared. I kind of came into this by accident, and I enjoy it. I think the biggest piece of my journey always has been that I needed to identify people who believed in me. And this, again, I remember there are times when I was in school that I would suddenly lose my confidence for no reason, even though I was number one in the class. I just washed, you know, feeling like an imposter or just really, really down where I just didn't want to go and take an exam or just drop out of the class. And then my grandmother used to say at that time, like, we have a hindu God called Hanuman. And she says he's the most powerful God, but then he needs people to kind of tell him all the good he has done and what he's capable of. And once they start telling the God Hanuman about those, then he grows so big that he can touch the sky, which just shows that he grows into more confidence and feels like they can tackle anything. So that was something that I always remember. That's why I need people who kind of are there for me in my worst moments to help me realize how much I have done, how far I have come. So I think that is something that I really. That's why I share things with you all the time. You know, sometimes they are not really directly involved with you, but just to help me understand how to navigate. So thank you for being there along all those time. The other piece that I think some of the lessons, especially being in the US and seeing all these cultural shifts, is to need to fight against the status quo and needs to challenge how we kind of view each other at the same time, how we go after a particular goal or flourish in a position or be a contributor in a university, for example. So that was something that I think that I've learned. When I say fight, it's not like you're not doing anything but you're just yelling at people. It's like you also set an example, but you also say, okay, now that we have done this, let's move the needle so that the next person in line who might have had similar experiences as mine doesn't have to go through this fight, because not everybody will have the courage or willpower or the necessary bandwidth to overcome that. So that was something that I really learned. And then I think the most important thing is trying to be innovative in service of each other. And it could be our students, it could be our university, it could be our community. You know, for example, social media was never my thing. I never wanted to be in social media. But the pandemic has kind of shifted that focus where I felt like we need a space, even on that medium, so that we can spread some positivity. We can talk about why it is important to have some loved ones or however that looks like for you, but then how do you cling on to those so that you can move ahead in life? So those are some of the things that I learned in my life.

[17:00] ANNE HAMBY: I'll say. So today is August 21. It'll be amazing to see what leadership role you have sometime in the future, because it's a matter of when, not if. Like, you are just. I think you would be an amazing leader, in part because of this idea that you do want to disrupt the status quo and kind of like the radical view that you have. But also, you are so good at getting people on board. Right? Like you said, it's not about violence. It's not about yelling. It's not about animosity. It's about, here, let me show you an alternative way and kind of like bringing people onto your side. So you're really great at coalition building, man. You know everybody.

[17:39] KRISHNA PAKALA: Yeah. I mean, that very quality that each of us kind of start believing in ourselves and saying, this is the next step for you, will mean a lot of good for the world eventually. So I wanted to ask you something else, too. So how would you describe me, and how would you describe yourself?

[17:59] ANNE HAMBY: Okay, well, how would I describe you? I guess I already started leading into that. I think you are someone who is incredibly persistent and kind, but someone who has. So I think kindness is often mistaken for softness. But you are strong, and I think you are so motivated. Like, you are tireless. When there's something that you want to achieve, when an outcome matters to you, you make it happen. It's not a. Okay, well, it might happen. Like, no, it will happen. And so there are not very many people I've met like that in my life. A lot of people that want something. But I think it's very easy to say, oh, well, there are all these other very reasonable external circumstances that prohibited whatever, whatever from happening. But for you, it does seem like if there is a barrier, like, it's okay, I'm not going to walk away from it. It's like, how do I get over that? But then also, something that really stands out about you, which is so great and different from other people, is it really is about bringing other people with you. It's not so much that Krishna wants to do this thing and Krishna wants the limelight. It's that Krishna wants to accomplish this thing and share it with everybody because it is good for everybody. And so you are so generous with, like, not only your time, but also you, like, share the glory. And for someone who's so accomplished and amazing, like, you're very humble, too. And I think that is rare to find in, like, a one human package. And so what was the follow up? The second part?

[19:37] KRISHNA PAKALA: Yeah. How would you describe yourself?

[19:39] ANNE HAMBY: Oh, gosh. Grab myself. Okay. So I, too, think I have a sort of persistent ability. I can. I may not be the best at anything, really, but I think I'm a slow grinder. I think, like, in several domains where it's like, I can just sort of, like, keep working away at it. And I have to really believe that something is valuable in order to do it. Like, I think a lot of the standard things. Maybe this will sound like bragging. I don't know, a lot of the standard things that attract people, like money and sort of like prestige or whatever, those things even kind of scare me. It's like, if I don't believe that something is worth it, I just can't even get motivated to do it. So, you know, I don't know. Maybe that's too idealistic. I think I'll leave it there.

[20:39] KRISHNA PAKALA: Yeah, I agree. You are a great partner to be working with, and you're a great human, too.

[20:44] ANNE HAMBY: Can I just wanna jump in and say one thing? I think we are great partners because I think you're a fabulous public face. I think you are so warm and good with people. I think I'm maybe not so great with people. I think you're more of an extrovert. I'm more of an introvert. But I think what we do share is a belief in the importance of some of the ideas that we're working on together. And I think because of those, like, slight differences that we have, as well as those commonalities, I think that does, yeah. Make a great partnership.

[21:13] KRISHNA PAKALA: Awesome.

[21:16] ANNE HAMBY: Okay, so my next question for you is, how has your life been different from what you'd imagined?

[21:27] KRISHNA PAKALA: Yeah. So I think if I think about the near past. So I always wanted to be in industry. Like, I wanted to finish my masters at Arizona State. And then at that time, even the job market was lucrative, you know, and Arizona, there's so many companies there. It was very easy for me to get into industry. But something changed where I dropped the whole plan. It was my master's advisor at that time. You know, one of the summers, he said he has to go to France, and he has signed up to teach this class that he has to fill that. And he said, you should do it. And I was like, no, I was just a teaching assistant. I've never gone through the process of actually how to teach a class and things like that. And he said, well, you help out students. They have been really fond of your teaching assistant sessions. And you are my right hand man. And I think you have this in you that I want to see you one day as a professor, which I never was planning to do. And I was born on September 5, which is celebrated as teachers a day in India. And my grandmother used to always say, like, one day I'll become a professor. And I always used to shrug that thought off. I'm like, no, I'm not. And then that experience that when I taught the class changed my perspective on viewing teaching also as a career choice. I really enjoyed it. And then I spoke to him after he came back. He said, you know, you can become a professor or a lecturer right now with your masters. But he said, having a PhD will help you with lot more opportunities in the future. And I was very skeptical because there was nobody in our family who has a PhD, and they didn't want to spend few more years with that. So I called my father, and he's like, you know, he said he wanted to do a PhD. He could never do it, and he wanted me to take that bet on. So I said, okay, I'll do it. And then by that time, all the universities and everything were done in terms of deadlines. And only University of Wyoming was the only one that, because my professor had a connection, he got me in. Rest is history. I finished and the journey there and then eventually teaching opportunities. And then my first job, which was at Boise State, this is my 11th year working here, really changed and to the point where I found that this is my calling. And I think that even though that has been different to what I had imagined life would take me. But I think this has been the biggest thing that I could have done, which is to, you know, realize my grandmother's dream, who wanted me to be in this profession, I think mostly because her husband died in heart attack at the age of 40 in his sleep. So he. And he was a school headmaster serving the education field, and she has donated a lot of money to schools and things like that. So I still feel like I wanted to get an award in front of her. I don't think that'll happen, even though I got awards before, but I wanted her to be here whenever I would get the next one or try to get one just for her. Unfortunately, she's not with us, but hopefully she'll be blessing me when I. When I get that next award. Thank you so much for asking me that question. So, I have a question for you. How would you like your students to remember you?

[25:19] ANNE HAMBY: Well, I suppose I have some firsthand experience. Maybe you can empathize with this every time at the end of the semester when you get your student evaluations. And, of course, there's the quantitative feedback, but it's the written comments that I always get the most excited to read.

[25:33] KRISHNA PAKALA: And.

[25:34] ANNE HAMBY: And there are some statements that I suppose when I read them, they make me feel really good. And so maybe that's kind of a circum. A roundabout way to answer this question. And so I don't think I necessarily want students to remember me as someone super smart, because I think that can be really intimidating. I want them to remember me as someone who was really excited about the content matter. And I do get that for a few of my classes that I teach that I really love, they'll say, it's clear that she's passionate about this topic. It really comes through. And why I think that's important to me and why I want students to remember me as that type of person is because I think that's communicable. You can't. I think, okay, let me say you can't. There's no other thing as you can't. But I think, for me, I found I'm a better educator when I can inspire students to be interested in the content. When they get excited about it and then make it personally relevant, then it doesn't feel like learning. And I think that's also one of my favorite comments, when students will say, like, some of the assignments were actually fun. And I think I've had other colleagues who have thought, like, oh, wow, it should be hard. It should be tough, it should be a grind. You should fail half the class. But my philosophy is, no, if they're excited to come to class and learn the stuff, then I'm doing my job. So I think that coupled with being a real human, and I do care about my students. I do follow up when some of them are struggling, if some of them wanna talk with me after class. And in a semester time, there's always a lot of time pressure. But it's like, I try to remember, no, this is really great. Like, this is an opportunity to talk to a young person who cares about this content. Like, I'm not so busy for that. So I think those two things are probably how I'd really. If students would remember me that way, I would feel accomplished.

[27:27] KRISHNA PAKALA: Yeah, I mean, this is hot of the press. I just had dinner with couple of your students who were at a gathering that we had, and they were in your career track MBA class last semester, and all things, you said exactly what they were saying.

[27:40] ANNE HAMBY: Oh, my goodness. Oh, no. And that was my first time through that class, too. I was flying by the seat of my van. Well, thank you for sharing. That makes me feel better. Okay. Are there any funny stories your family tells about you that come to mind?

[27:59] KRISHNA PAKALA: Um, yeah, there are few. One is when we are really, really young in schools, just to bring about awareness about certain culture or something, they have us get into these costumes. So one time, it was my brother and my turn, and we were trying to be Lord Krishna and. Lord Krishna, his skin tone is blue, so they painted the body, whichever is visible, in blue. And then they gave us all these different attire and get up and everything that, you know, all the jewelry and everything. And I think the makeup man did too much to the point where I was looking not like Lord Krishna. And it was very funny. They took a picture of me and my brother and. And you can see in the picture, my brother was crying, and my mom's sister always brings that up whenever we go and kind of makes fun of us. That you kind of as Lord Krishna, you kind of scared people off. The other one I think of is, which is probably true even now, is I had this habit of throwing anything that I have in my hand when I was really hungry and that I was not fed at the right moment. This was like utensils or something. Not at people, but just showing my frustration that way. So I get hangry that way a lot. Like, even now, obviously, I can't do that with my wife and stuff, but she can sense when I'm really. I'm hungry, I need something to eat. And that is something that my parents and all the people know how much I used to do that. The other piece is, I'm not a dancer, but I always dance at all of our family gatherings and, like, in a funny way and stuff. That was something that my, like, all my family always look forward to. Whenever we have get togethers, they'll say, hey, Krishna, why don't you dance? And then we have an uncle who is 70 or 72 now, and he would also dance in this weird moves with me, and we would just go crazy. So those were some of the things that I would say my family would kind of bring talk about.

[30:31] ANNE HAMBY: Those are funny. And the blue with the Krishna makes me think of your. It's like a harbinger of your status as a Boise state faculty member.

[30:40] KRISHNA PAKALA: Right?

[30:40] ANNE HAMBY: Like all the blue.

[30:42] KRISHNA PAKALA: Yes. Great point. All right, I have one final question for you. I mean, final for today. We'll have more questions for each other in the future. Do you have any favorite stories from your work life?

[30:57] ANNE HAMBY: So one comes to mind, I think, about the interview process. So when I was first going on the job market, and for those who are not familiar with this process in academia, and it might be actually different for different departments, I'm not sure. But at least in my field, there's one central interview kind of hub where all the people who are hiring and all the people who are looking for jobs, they've obviously submitted all their applications, and they get meeting time set up in a hotel. So it coincides with my field's big conference. And so what happens? Everyone shows up, and it's kind of awkward because faculty members who are representing a university rent a hotel room, and so the candidate will walk into, you know, room 1173 at the Hilton, and there are all these, like, people in suits sitting on a bed, and then you sort of, like, sit down at the hot seat at a. At a table. And it's just very strange to be in a hotel room being interviewed. But it's also super awkward because, like, all the interviews are, like, about half hour blocks, right? And so everyone is scrambling to get to the elevator at the same time. And so, you know, this is, like, 5100, 200 candidates who are running around, and so people are, like, jamming elevator buttons, trying to get up and down. Okay, so that's the context I'm walking into. I had gone camping about, I don't know, maybe a week beforehand as a way to decompress before they're, like, the most stressful event of my life. One of them, anyway. And I got really bad poison ivy, like, all over my body, head to toe poison ivy. And so I am just itching my face off. The day of my interview, it's like I'm wearing this suit and it's all I can do to keep from, like, scratching, like all everywhere. And I had interviews from easily 08:00 a.m. to 08:00 p.m. that day. It was just kind of like a. Oh, a comedic, like, is there anything else that could test me now? Maybe, maybe lightning could strike right now and the power could go out or I could like, get indigestion or something like that. But it ended up working out okay. I ended up getting a job out of it. But I just remember that being one of the most both strange experiences because of the whole hotel room situation as well as uncomfortable situations. So what was your, is your interview in your field? Is it like that?

[33:32] KRISHNA PAKALA: Yeah. I mean, they are supposed to be, you know, quite strenuous. Like, you have this application process and for one position, about 150 people apply. I mean, we don't do it in a room per se for our field. But then you have the phone interview and the on campus interview and then you get a job or not, right? In my case, I needed a job within a week. Otherwise I had to leave the country and Boise state. I got the interview and then it was a phone interview and then I was like, okay, when is going to be on site? Like, I can't wait two, three weeks and stuff. It so happened that it was just the phone interview from me. And then they suddenly decided to give me the job. And later on I came to know the story was that they probably had another person also in contention. But my advisor at that time, he was in Poland, my master's advisor, he insisted that he should talk and give his recommendation to the committee. I think that changed the game. So they were like, okay, you know, we should give this to Krishna. So that was, in a way, a very crazy experience that I'm happy that I got the opportunity, otherwise I probably would not be here.

[34:49] ANNE HAMBY: It's amazing how it all works out.

[34:51] KRISHNA PAKALA: Yes, yes. It was a pleasure talking with you and learning more than what I already know about you. So thank you so much.

[35:00] ANNE HAMBY: Thank you, Krishna. This was really great and I look forward to many more stories with you.

[35:05] KRISHNA PAKALA: Yes.