Kristen Norton and Linda Collins

[00:03] LINDA COLLINS: 4 years old. Today's date is September 2, 2021. I'm in Fresno, California, the north side of Fresno. My conversation partner is Kristin and we are conversation partners. That's our relationship. Kristin

[00:21] KRISTEN NORTON: Yeah. Thanks, Linda. My name is Kristin I'm going to be 50 this year, so that makes me 49 today, but not for all that much longer. Today's date is September 2nd, although to be honest, I thought it was September 1st. So I'm glad we got that cleared up. I am in Fresno. I'm in central Fresno. And I'm here today talking with Linda. We're StoryCorps one small step, conversation partners. Linda, what made you want to do this interview today?

[00:52] LINDA COLLINS: Well, when I heard it talked about on npr, it sounded like something that I. During this time, we've been also closed in. Everybody I've been visiting with and everything on Zoom or whatever has just been within my small circle. I haven't had the opportunity to be meeting other people outside. And so I thought it was probably time for me to kind of stretch myself and listen to some other points of view for a while, or at least a little bit.

[01:20] KRISTEN NORTON: Oh, yeah, that's great. I had a really similar reason for wanting to do that, which is to be in a space with somebody who doesn't necessarily share all of my same concerns and values and beliefs and get to expand my understanding of that. I find that to be really a valuable way to spend time is in conversations with others who are different from myself. And this was such a great opportunity to do that that I just, I didn't want to pass it up. So it's nice to be here with you today.

[01:58] LINDA COLLINS: Okay. Did you. Are we to read this?

[02:00] SPEAKER C: So I've put both your bios in the chat. So Kristin you'll be reading Linda's bio, and Linda, you'll be reading Kristen's bio. And once you read the bios, you can ask each other a follow up question about them.

[02:12] LINDA COLLINS: I can't see all of hers at this point.

[02:16] SPEAKER C: You should be able to scroll down in the chat.

[02:20] LINDA COLLINS: Okay. Nope. Oh, I can go up.

[02:26] SPEAKER C: Oh, up. Yes.

[02:27] LINDA COLLINS: Okay. Okay. I went up.

[02:28] KRISTEN NORTON: Got it.

[02:29] LINDA COLLINS: Okay. Okay. So who first?

[02:34] KRISTEN NORTON: You can go ahead because my name comes up first.

[02:37] LINDA COLLINS: Okay. And I read yours. Right.

[02:42] SPEAKER C: Read it as it's written.

[02:43] KRISTEN NORTON: Yes.

[02:43] LINDA COLLINS: I am a white CIS heterosexual female who grew up in a small town in New Mexico in a conservative religious family. I have been an English teacher in urban high schools and a community college in California for 15 years. My students have been my greatest teachers. And I keep in Touch with many of them, including some from the first year I taught. Learning about their lived experiences has shifted how I view those who don't share my identifying characteristics, like VIPOC and LGBTQ people. Can I ask, are you teaching at Fresno City?

[03:15] KRISTEN NORTON: I am, yes. Yeah.

[03:16] LINDA COLLINS: Okay. Okay.

[03:18] KRISTEN NORTON: Yes. Okay. And Linda, you were born in Fresno. I've lived in both metropolitan areas of the state. I've been married for 50 years, have an MBA and had a career in business management and accounting before retiring. We travel a lot in the US using usually in our trailer by choice. We had no children. My Christian faith is deep and has shaped my life as has my love of God's creation. My parents and my husband's parents were from the Midwest coming to California after World War II and marriage to find jobs. I volunteer at St. Agnes Medical Center. So is this where I. Is this where we're asking follow up questions? So near? Yep.

[04:03] SPEAKER C: Yep, go for it.

[04:04] KRISTEN NORTON: Okay. All right. So Linda, I was wondering if you could tell me a little bit more about your Christian faith and the way that's impacted your life.

[04:18] LINDA COLLINS: Well, my parents were both from non Christian homes and as well. My mom was a teenager, my dad was probably closer to 20. They both became Christians and when they got married, they decided they would establish a Christian home. And by moving clear out to California, it kind of gave me the opportunity because they're moving away from family. All their family was back there. And so they immediately got involved in churches here. And we grew up in Southern Baptist churches here in this area, in the Fresno area. And so we were in church a lot, Sunday morning, Sunday night, Wednesday night, all the time. And we enjoyed it very much. We all have continued in our faith and we've all married people in our faith that our faith people, we aren't all in the same. We're not all Southern Baptists anymore, but we all still are very faithful and we serve in our churches. I also forgot to add that I am another volunteer I do is as the treasurer for the Mennonite Disaster Service here in California where we build. We provide the labor to build homes for people who cannot rebuild after disaster. Right now we're in paradise, rebuilding there and we will be building in Santa Cruz. Tom and I have been in several places in the US Building for them and that's another big piece of our deal. But having grown up in the faith, I had a really great foundation. And as we moved around and changed churches, I have relied more on my faith for stability, for comfort, for hope. As things have happened and I found it Never to fail.

[06:05] KRISTEN NORTON: So when you do the rebuilding after disasters, can you tell me a little more about that?

[06:11] LINDA COLLINS: Well, the Mennonite Disaster Services is based in Lidditz, Pennsylvania. It's Canada and the US when there is a disaster, we have one group that will go in and do the immediate, you know, muck out. Like if it's floods or whatever, they muck them out or tear, do demolish, whatever needs to be done. And then there is always a local committee that is formed. The community forms, and they identify people who need to have their homes rebuilt and cannot afford it. Either they don't have insurance or not enough FEMA funds may be enough for the materials, but not for the building. So once someone is identified, then they ask different groups, do you want to build? And we will look at it and say, yes, we'll build that house or we won't. And once they set up the project, then volunteers sign up. We have volunteers from Canada. We have volunteers from the Amish. Volunteer a lot because we're an Anabaptist group and Quakers, and we just have lots of different people. And it's set up where we have a cook, we have a place for you to stay, and people sign up for how many weeks they want to stay, and they come and they're fed very well. There's no budget for the cook, and they have a place to stay with showers and everything and Laundromat and all that stuff. And they work for however many. How much they want. It's just the labor. The materials are all donated or paid for. And then we build a house. We finished a couple of houses down in Lake Isabella just recently. My husband and I worked down there, and we just hated to hear there was another fire going through last week because we thought not the houses we just built, but the people that once we finish the build building itself, we always have a dedication service and we give them a quilt or a wall hanging that's a quilted piece, because that's one of the big things about Mennonites and brethren and Amish or the quilts. And that's one of the things that we leave them with. And we've never had anybody say they didn't like what we did.

[08:19] KRISTEN NORTON: Wow, that's awesome. So it's kind of like Habitat for Humanity, except that it's particularly for disaster relief.

[08:27] LINDA COLLINS: Yes. Yeah.

[08:28] KRISTEN NORTON: Yeah. And so you're actually out there constructing the houses, right?

[08:32] LINDA COLLINS: We. I don't. My husband was a general contractor before we retired, so he knows it all, but. And he knows what I Can do. Whenever we're there with a group, we usually go on what they call the RV projects because we have a trailer and we take our trailer and stay there. And he'll come back and say, okay, tomorrow we're going to be drywalling. You can tape or you can sand or you can do that and I'll go do that. Whatever I can do, I'll do or paint or whatever. But when it comes to all the heavy lifting, the plumbing, electrical, they take care of that. I've also helped the cook one, one project I helped the cook because that was fun. You could buy whatever you want. We bought steaks, we bought whatever. And we had a lot of fun doing that. Right.

[09:14] KRISTEN NORTON: And it would be probably hard how many people are on a project.

[09:18] LINDA COLLINS: Usually it's 20 or so at a time. Every week they come in on Sunday night and then they work Monday through Friday and you have the weekends free. So if you want to go do something, you can. If it's an RV project, you only work Monday through Thursday and you get the three day weekend. So when we were in British Columbia, we actually went over to the coast for that three day weekend and got to see the ocean from their point of view. And it was very interesting.

[09:48] KRISTEN NORTON: What a fantastic, what a fantastic thing to be involved in. That's. I didn't know anything about that. That's really neat.

[09:55] LINDA COLLINS: Well, we kind of, we kind of run under the radar because we don't, you know, we just want to serve. We don't want to blow our horn and we serve. That's what we do. And every year you've heard about the, the auction at Fresno Pacific University. The quilt.

[10:14] KRISTEN NORTON: Yeah.

[10:16] LINDA COLLINS: Okay. Well, the men, the men's chorus sings at those at the same time. Not at the auction, but the same time. And all the offerings from the men's chorus go to Midnight Possession Services, California. So if you ever wanted to hear what they. And hear them sing, which they're very, very good, and see some of the pictures of some of the projects we do. And sometimes I'll have somebody to speak about it and you can learn more about it. But if you want to volunteer, you're welcome. We will take anybody who wants to volunteer. You can just look online at Mennonite Disaster Service and we're there.

[10:52] KRISTEN NORTON: That's really awesome. Yeah, I had no idea. That's a really great thing to do. And I mean, you know, unfortunately there's just going to be so much more need for your services.

[11:04] LINDA COLLINS: Yeah. We were watching the hurricanes coming through and some of the fires. And it's going to be difficult. But my husband and I always said that we were going to retire to something, not from something. So we looked forward to retiring so we could do this kind of stuff. I also volunteer at the hospital and he volunteers, love ink and some other stuff. So that was kind of our whole thing was the only reason we worked was be able to retire to stuff like this.

[11:35] KRISTEN NORTON: Yeah, that's, that's great. And I like that philosophy. Right. We're gonna, we're gonna retire into our work in service. Right. Not retire from what we've done, but retire into service. I really like that.

[11:48] LINDA COLLINS: Well, you've got time to plan. You still got time to plan to be able to do that. So you should start looking around and planning.

[11:54] KRISTEN NORTON: Oh, believe me, I am ready to retire to any time now, believe me. Yeah. There are a lot of things I would like to retire too. And you know, that being one of them. Right. There's just so many great opportunities and ways to serve in this world and, you know, becoming aware of them and then making plans for how you want to do it I think is really important and then following through. And it sounds like it's a really good fit for your husband because he has that background for the two of you because it gives you chances to travel and also be of service. I mean, really nice.

[12:29] SPEAKER C: And Linda, do you have a follow up question for Kristin

[12:35] LINDA COLLINS: You said that you grew up in a conservative religious home in New Mexico. Where exactly New Mexico were you, Were you anywhere near Albuquerque or were you out in one of the rural areas?

[12:44] KRISTEN NORTON: Yeah, nowhere near Albuquerque. That was the big city. That was the big city. We had to drive three and a half hours to get to where they had a mall. I grew up in Roswell. Oh, wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was and still is very rural. You know, I Left there like 30 years ago and I really haven't looked back at all, except on a few occasions when I've gone back into the town. It hasn't changed really in the least. It's still small. It's. It, you know, there's not been any of those. It just is kind of a static, lost in time, kind of rural New Mexico town. So, yeah, I really like northern New Mexico. When you move up Albuquerque and then moving farther north, Santa Fe and up towards Taos, and that area is just really beautiful and full of culture and full of history and it's just, I think, one of the most beautiful parts of our country, but definitely not the southeastern part where I grew up.

[14:04] LINDA COLLINS: What religious background did you have?

[14:07] KRISTEN NORTON: Well, my. My dad moved around from church to church. My mom was a Christian Scientist, which I realize is not super conservative. It's kind of its own fringe thing. And I was really involved in like the Methodist youth group and went to church camp and. And then because I grew up with a very small town perspective of the world, and Texas, you know, the big state right next to New Mexico was full of opportunity. Right. And so my dad convinced me it wasn't really hard. I didn't have a lot of understanding of anything to go to Texas Christian University. And so I went and spent. Spent four years there getting my undergraduate degree, and then I stayed on and got a master's degree in education from there. And so, yeah, my connection to the Christian faith really runs all the way through that whole time period in varying degrees and in various churches.

[15:16] LINDA COLLINS: Texas is different. It's like a country unto itself.

[15:20] KRISTEN NORTON: Yeah. And they take great pride in that. Yeah, they really, really do. And I don't know, there's just. My dad was a Texan, even though he lived in New Mexico. Right. It doesn't matter. You're a Texan. I was not a Texan, but he really was. And man till the day he died. And I think he was hoping to convert me into one. Right. He was going to send me to college there and I was going to see the light. It didn't really work out that way and here I am in California. But he was hopeful.

[15:57] LINDA COLLINS: Do you know any of the professors in the nursing area?

[16:01] KRISTEN NORTON: I don't. You know, I've only been at city for a couple of years and I'm still trying to. And we've been in the pandemic for most of that. So, you know, I taught there one full semester and then two months into the second semester I was sent home and I've been at my kitchen table ever since. And so my opportunities to meet people and interact with people have been really, really limited. I'm part of the faculty senate and they have people from all over there, but again, we're not in the same room together. We're just on zoom in little squares. And so there's not that opportunity to really meet people.

[16:36] LINDA COLLINS: Well, I've got a really good friend that's a professor named Bridget Hine Bosque. Hein. I think she does the hyphenated thing, not nursing. She's been there for years and years and she's just like you, though. I'm ready to ret.

[16:52] KRISTEN NORTON: Yeah. And I don't even have the years and years to back me up. Right. Or that I don't have anything going for me except the idea that I want to retire to something.

[17:01] LINDA COLLINS: Right.

[17:01] KRISTEN NORTON: There's things I want to retire to. And being a part of a large system is not, you know, really what I want to be doing for a whole lot longer. But it's okay. I mean, I love teaching. I love working with my students. That's the part that keeps me. Keeps me going. So, yeah, definitely might remember that it.

[17:25] LINDA COLLINS: Does not take as much to retire as you think it does. When you retire, a lot of your expenses go away. I keep telling people the only things that go up are the cost of toilet paper and PG&E. Everything else goes down.

[17:40] KRISTEN NORTON: Those aren't even going to go up because I've been living at home this whole time.

[17:46] LINDA COLLINS: But people, people seem to think like they have to make the same amount of money they did. And so they keep trying to work to get that. You don't. You can retire earlier than you think you can.

[17:56] KRISTEN NORTON: That's encouraging. I really like that. Thank you.

[18:00] LINDA COLLINS: I kind of knew it being an accountant, but when we did retire and I began looking, I thought, gee, I've got extra money here, you know, that I didn't think I'd have. So it works out well. The next question she has here is, who have been the most influential people in your life and what did they teach you? Well, I think for my part, my most influential people were my parents because I saw them live their faith and that influenced my faith, of course, and I've proven it too. And my husband. My husband is a people person and I'm not. So we are good for each other. He will see someone and say they need help, Linda. And I'm just kind of oblivious and. But he can see it. And then we will help. Whereas I'm, you know, I'm into numbers and stuff. So who's the most influential people put people in your life and what did they teach you?

[18:57] KRISTEN NORTON: I really think my students have been the most influential people in my life because their life experience, experiences have been so radically different from anything I ever grew up with or thought about or was encouraged to think about. And in a lot of ways had some really big misconceptions and assumptions about, based on where I grew up and the family I grew up in. And so to be working with students who, primarily students of color, many of whom are immigrants or first generation in America from a variety of backgrounds has really opened my eyes to what it means to be in America and not be white. Because that was my only experience. Right. That's who I knew. That's who I went to college with. That's what I was taught to value. And so when I started interacting with my students and they started, you know, because when you're an English teacher, they write a lot. And when they write a lot, they tell you things. And when they tell you things, you get a. You get a view into their world that other teachers in other disciplines might not always get right. If you have content to cover, you know, it might not be as easy to gain access to the lived experiences of students, but because I'm an English teacher and was assigning writing all the time, they really had opportunities to find their voice and open up. And I just learned so much that has really shaped how I view the world and my place in it, that all of them collectively, and they continue to be my greatest influence.

[20:46] LINDA COLLINS: Could you briefly describe in your own words, your personal political values?

[20:50] KRISTEN NORTON: That's a loaded question, huh?

[20:52] LINDA COLLINS: Yeah.

[20:54] KRISTEN NORTON: Especially when you have to make a.

[20:56] LINDA COLLINS: Briefly. Yeah.

[20:57] KRISTEN NORTON: All right. Briefly. So I don't know what that means. Like 50 words or less.

[21:03] LINDA COLLINS: Well, you should know that. Write an answer.

[21:07] KRISTEN NORTON: Right.

[21:07] LINDA COLLINS: Compare and contrast.

[21:11] KRISTEN NORTON: I used to hate that.

[21:12] LINDA COLLINS: Compare and contrast. I never.

[21:15] KRISTEN NORTON: Right. It's not a. It's not a thing we do very much. Not a thing we do. So. Hey, you want to go first?

[21:25] LINDA COLLINS: Well, my political values are small government. I think having worked for the county and I was the accountant for all of the human services. So I saw all this money coming in and I saw where it went, and that just. I became fairly angry. But I was so frustrated by the time I retired and everything, how much money we got, and it didn't go where it was supposed to go. And it didn't really help because you could see these millions coming in, but you didn't see any good results from it. And so I have. My political value would be that money, taxpayer money, goes to help people to work, to get them working, to get them out of whatever issues they have, whether it's mental health issues or whatever, to kind of get it fixed. I'm one of these people to get things fixed, and then. And then they can support themselves and go forward and be a productive part of society. I had a real issue with all these victim mentality thing where they were just taking advantage of the system and everything. So that's another part. I think that people should be encouraged to work. I like the diversity. I have no problem with immigration, with people coming in, as long as they come in legally and they're willing to work into the system, work, you know, work into the society. I feel that our country was based on Christian values, and I think that that needs to continue to be. That is our country. And by taking away those Christian values, I see the country as being degraded, not getting any better. So I guess I'm trying to think what else politically, that I like democracy. I like being able to vote. I voted in every election I could vote in since I was 21.

[23:35] KRISTEN NORTON: Yeah, I think that. I think you did a really nice job briefly describing in your own words your personal political values. Like, I don't know. I'm not going to be nearly as brief or concise or really as clear about that. But, you know, one of the things I do want to do that I do want to say that really shines through about your Christian faith is how it's always. Well, I won't say always, but in this conversation that we've had very much in service, and I think that's such a primary foundation of a Christian faith that I understand and really can respect, is that idea of being in service to others, right? And clearly you have that, and you and your husband both have that. And obviously that came from your parents as you talked about how they shaped that. And I think about. When I think about a couple of things, I realize I'm supposed to talk about my own values, but I really want to. I really want to talk about some of the values you have and how I see some similarities between them, if that's okay, first. But when you were talking about all that money coming in and seeing where it goes, right? Like when I was in the public school system, right? Everybody says, oh, the answer is more money. And I'm like, no, it's not. I'm thinking, no, I don't see that that's really the answer here. I think maybe distribution of money differently, really thinking about how we're going to use those resources, maybe being intentional with that in ways that really serve the populations. Because, you know, even right now, they have a lot of money coming in from COVID you know, a lot. A lot of extra money coming in. And I'm just like, but where's that going? What are we doing with that? So I totally understand that question. Of all of these resources, financial resources being allocated and to what end, right? And to what end? How are we seeing them actually serving the people in meaningful ways that they're designed to serve? And I also think it's really important to support individuals and being productive members of society, right? Helping them to find that space and to acknowledge that they really do have things to offer and that there is a place waiting for them in our society. And I think a lot of that victim mentality stems from systems that have pushed them out of meaningful places. Right. Not starting even in the schools. Right. That's where I see it. That's where I've spent most of my time. And you can watch groups of people getting pushed out of the system very, very early on, whole groups. And when that happens, when they get pushed out of, you know, just a school system, where is there a place for them after that in terms of developing themselves and finding a place to really offer and honor the gifts that they bring and that they are capable of delivering into our communities that are really in need of everybody to be doing that. So when I think about my political values, I think about ways to support people of all backgrounds in living meaningful, productive lives, whatever that means. Right. And how to best support them in working their way towards that. I mean, that's part. Part of why I like to teach, but also I see so many ways in which that doesn't happen for so many people. And now that I'm at community college, it looks different because now I'm primarily dealing with adults, you know, of varying ages. Right. 18 all the way through, like my age, sometimes even your age there. But a wide range of people who are coming back to school and thinking about ways to fit into the community. Right. Ways to. To do what you're talking about ways to be productive. And one of the things I've taught in my critical thinking class was a look at the ways in which historically different groups have been marginalized and pushed out of opportunities to. To be a part of the system. And when we think about bringing, you know, when we think about making everybody have space in our communities for working productively and being contributing members of our society, you know, thinking about all the ways historically we've made that not desirable. Right. So for hundreds of years, different groups have not been acknowledged even to a certain extent. Well, definitely to a certain extent. Women, but all kinds of groups of people. And so really helping them to find a place, you know, how can they get a foothold and really feel like America has room for them, like our communities have room for them, and they're wanted and they're necessary and they're important. Because so many of my adult students don't feel that way. Right. They want to feel that way. They come in hoping that might happen for them, but they are already. So they've gotten so many messages that they don't matter from so many different places. Right. There's no single place to pin it on. Right. So many different messages that who they are doesn't matter and that it's kind of hard to think about that. But it's. And I don't know that it's necessarily a political value that I have, but it certainly drives my political interest, this idea of helping all people find a place and way to contribute to our society in meaningful ways. And it really does, as you pointed out, go far beyond just financial resources. Right. There's so many other things that different members of our community need to really feel supported and to feel that they have a place here. So I don't know that that answers the question, but that's what I think.

[30:09] SPEAKER C: Kristin I was wondering if you can kind of specify those community, who those community members are, who have been who you feel like have been pushed out of systems like public schools and like, are there certain communities you're thinking of in particular?

[30:28] LINDA COLLINS: Can I make a comment first? She was right on about the women, though. And look how long it took us to finally not. And we're still marginalized in areas because I was in business and hitting the glass ceiling and going through all the stuff I went through just to get where I got was difficult. So I can understand what you're saying about other people being marginalized. I know where they're coming from. But for me, the way was education. I had to be more. I had to have my mba, not my BS to get where the guys got. But that was the key. And so education, like you said, is very important. It is.

[31:03] KRISTEN NORTON: And I think what you're saying is really important in order to have a place. People who have been historically marginalized have to not be just as good as they have to be better than, and then they have to be a lot better than. And then that will still put them below, but at least maybe they'll have a door open. Right. And so that thinking about all the extra steps they have to go through the hoops they have to have just to be considered possibly worthy is, you know, speaks very much to your point. And to answer your question, Sonia, when I talk to my students who I have a lot of students who are Hispanic and particularly and then I also have taught a lot of Hmong students. Those are the two groups that I have primarily worked with and they have some similarities. And one of them, ironically, that kind of flies in the face of what we're talking about with regard to women here, Linda, is that the women tend to pursue education and the men tend not to. And so this idea of thinking about men of color in particular, Right. And that extends to anyone who's not white, right. So this could be like the Hmong population, this could be the black population, the Hispanic pop. All of them, right. They tend to have a lot of barriers that prevent them from seeing a place for themselves in academia. Some of it is cultural, a lot of it is cultural, a lot of it is financially driven. And so this idea that they need to go straight to work and start making a living, but if they're making a living, the kinds of jobs they're able to get don't really allow them to also pursue school as effectively as they would be if they were not, say, for example, working the graveyard shift. Right. And so if my students are going to work at 10 and they're getting off at 6 in the morning, and then they're going home and then they have to be in class at 8. And then what just happened, right? Like now they have a class with me for three hours and they didn't sleep all night and when are they going to do homework? And that's just one class. And what about their kids? And what about. Right. And so all of these stressors just kind of start to build up. And they're working and they're trying to provide for their families and they're trying to better themselves simultaneously. And the conditions are not such that they're able to really juggle all of that successfully. And so thinking about ways to support them in doing that, you know, the kinds of jobs that men of color tends to get are the graveyard shifts, Right. The night shifts, because, you know, men can handle that sort of thing. And then the physical labor, right. So they'll be the ones moving or, you know, moving things or working like at Amazon or picking in the fields or any kind of like something that requires physical strength. Because that's what men are good for, Right? Also, they can provide. And so then you think about them wanting to go to college, and a lot of them have expressed the idea that their family's like, wait, what are you doing that for? We need you working. You've got to be supporting us. You've got to what? That's just. That's for sissies. That's what women do. Why are you doing that? And then the extra pressure on them comes and it says, if you're going to do it, then you better be good at it and you better not fail and you better make it work because if you don't, you're a loser. And then you gave up all the stuff you should be doing for your family just to be a loser. Right. And so they carry this idea that they really have to be successful and nothing in their life has prepared them for that. Right. And nothing in their current circumstances are supporting them in that. And so men of color are a particularly vulnerable group for some of these reasons even, you know, and I have the ones who are trying to make it work. I have some in the past have had students who are coming back after military careers and now they are looking for, you know, what am I going to do to continue to support my family. And usually they're coming back with some medical issues as a result of their service. And so that's a complicating factor for them. And so there's just, I've really learned there's so many barriers that I have never had to experience, couldn't even conceive of that are the day to day realities of these people as they're trying to make space for themselves in our communities in meaningful ways. Right. That aren't just their brute strength or their manliness. So they can work all night but really take into consideration what they want to be doing and how they want to be serving. So anyway.

[36:02] LINDA COLLINS: Do you ever feel troubled by people with the same beliefs as you, that is people from your own side of the aisle and how they communicate those beliefs to others? Well, of course from a religious perspective there are people that call themselves Christian, that their lifestyle does not reflect the word, that doesn't reflect the Bible. And that really troubles you when you see that, how people respond to them and you know that that's just not right. So that's the kind of thing that troubles me. And the. But you might consider them having the same beliefs. I do. And also right now on the political side of it, some of the conservatives, some of the stuff that, you know, this anti vaxxer thing and all that, it's like, where's your brain? You know, how can you be considered conservative? And you're talking like that and it just, it's just, yeah, those are the kinds of things that bug me about having the same beliefs. But I mean being from the same side of the aisle, but they're not reflecting it.

[37:11] KRISTEN NORTON: Yeah, yeah. And you know, I have, I have some, I have some trouble with their ability, not conservatives, but liberals or Democrats with their ability to get on the same page and to really figure out how they want to move forward and to really Find leadership. I think, you know, finding leadership is something that both parties could really benefit from. You know, a good leader is so rare, and a good leader can unite. And a good leader can bring people from different belief systems together around common goals and find those similarities as Americans. And we just have not had one for a while. And, you know, it would be nice to see a good leader rise up anywhere at any level. Right. Whether it's as governor or as president or as whatever. Right. Just somebody who has some vision and some ability to unite. So I am troubled by the lack of leadership I see in my party.

[38:31] LINDA COLLINS: The lack of willingness to compromise, too. The lack of unwillingness to compromise. They won't even try to get close here.

[38:40] KRISTEN NORTON: Right, right. And I think. Yeah, I agree. That idea, to see other perspectives, which I think is one of the great things about what we're doing here, is that ability to really think about it from the perspectives of other people. And I don't think. I don't think people who have been elected are thinking really about anybody but themselves.

[39:06] LINDA COLLINS: Right. As soon as you're elected, you begin to campaign for the next election now.

[39:12] KRISTEN NORTON: Right. And it just sort of, you know, takes away your ability to be in the moment and serve the people that you said you wanted to serve. You know, I think one of the themes of our conversation today is really about service and all the different ways that can look and all of the different ways to bring that. And our political leadership seems to have lost sight of the fact that it's designed to serve and just seems to be thinking about its own. Their own selfish ways to gain. And I don't understand that.

[39:49] LINDA COLLINS: I think part of it's because some of the people that are most vocal are on the very far ends. They're the fringe, and that's who they're saying they're represented. They're not thinking about all of us, people in the middle of the bell curve that they really should be representing, not the two ends.

[40:08] KRISTEN NORTON: Right. Yeah, I think that's a good point. Right. Who has the microphone, who's being given it, who's taking it? And. And what are they using it to say?

[40:19] LINDA COLLINS: I remember Nixon and his silent majority. And what. When he brought that up, how many people responded, yes, I'm part of this silent majority. And I thought we need somebody to bring out the silent majority again.

[40:32] KRISTEN NORTON: Yeah. Somebody the silent majority can rally behind. Because, I mean, there hasn't been really anybody to gather that group. Right. Because the silent majority, I think, comes from all places, all levels. Yeah. Not one or the other. So, yeah, a leader who really understands that. So, yeah, I'm pretty disappointed in the leadership.

[40:58] LINDA COLLINS: Aren't we all?

[41:01] SPEAKER C: Kristen just put a question in the chat, if you could ask that to Linda, please.

[41:05] KRISTEN NORTON: Linda, was there a moment or experience in your life that helped shape your beliefs?

[41:12] LINDA COLLINS: Not really a moment, because, like I said, I grew up in the church, and that shaped a lot of it. There have been several kind of moments of clarity. Having retired, I've been able to be in Bible study a lot more. And I'm able. As I go through. As we go through all the studies, I'm seeing things differently. And I can see how the Bible is in levels, kind of. And you have the first level where you just read it, and then it has a lot of depth to it. And I can look back now on points in my life, and I can see where that ministered to me at that point. And it's different now. Ministers to me in a different way now. Some of the points I guess, that shaped would be, of course, as a child growing up in a church, some of the people that poured their lives into me to make sure that I was schooled, that I had the knowledge to make the decisions I made. And then getting married was a big. Was a big thing. You know, it was a big change in life and everything. But these 50 years have been wonderful. I would have. Wouldn't have been half the person I am if I hadn't had done life with Tom. So it. Those are the kinds of things that have. The experiences that have shaped my beliefs have made them stronger, because every time I had issues in my life, every time I had problems, every time I had celebrations, I could see God in it no matter what. So my beliefs have just been strengthened over the years with everything that's happened.

[42:52] KRISTEN NORTON: Yeah. Is there a favorite part of the Bible that you have that you come back to that speaks to you in different ways? I mean, there's probably more than one.

[42:59] LINDA COLLINS: Oh, yeah. I just love Genesis is my favorite book. I just love Genesis. Everything in the whole Bible is in Genesis. You just. As you read it, you begin to understand that this was just all the beginning. And then everything else just explains it. It just explains what was there. And the Psalms. I love the Psalms because they. David and the other writers of the Psalms experience life. And so whatever experience you have, you can find it there and you can see what their reaction was, and. But they always end up praising God no matter what. And you have to come back to that.

[43:31] KRISTEN NORTON: That.

[43:32] LINDA COLLINS: That's. That's what it's all about. So it's. Anyway, yeah.

[43:40] KRISTEN NORTON: A book. Like a book that works for me like that. I don't know if you've ever read anything by Rumi. Have you read anything by Rumi?

[43:47] LINDA COLLINS: I don't think so.

[43:49] KRISTEN NORTON: He's a. He's a Sufi poet from persia in the 1100s, 1300s, a long time ago. And, you know, he. He kind of walks the mystical side of spirituality, and he has so many poems. And it's important you get the right translation. Right. Because. And that matters also, actually, with the Bible.

[44:12] LINDA COLLINS: Right. Yes, definitely.

[44:14] KRISTEN NORTON: The different translations of it. And so the Coleman Barks translation of Rumi is something. And I, you know, I just come to. It doesn't matter what kind of day you're having. You open it and you read it and you're like, oh, I see. Good. That's nice way to speak to me. I see it. And, you know, I think that's probably how the Bible functions for you, is that there's just this message from spirit that comes through and says, let me reframe how you're thinking about this.

[44:41] LINDA COLLINS: Yeah.

[44:42] KRISTEN NORTON: And, you know, just give some insight. So, yeah, I definitely. I definitely understand how words can have different meanings at different times, even though they're the same words. Right. Yeah.

[44:56] SPEAKER C: Kristin I put another question in the chat for you to ask Linda.

[45:00] KRISTEN NORTON: Okay, Linda, is there a political social issue you've recently changed your mind on? Hmm.

[45:11] LINDA COLLINS: I don't think anything recently. There was. I did make a big change several. A lot of years ago, but when I was young, I believed. I thought abortion was okay. When I was young, I didn't because I never wanted to have children. I thought if something had happened, if the pill had failed or something, that I didn't want children. But then as I've gotten older and studied more about life and how God has given us life, I've realized that abortion is wrong. So it's. That was a big change for me. But it wasn't just recently. It was quite a while ago. But I have gotten more and more strict in that belief, I guess you'd say. More and more, I'm thinking that God gives life, we have no right to take it away. Plus, if you look at the societies and the civilizations that have fallen, you know, the Romans, the Assyrians, the Greeks, all the way back the end of their society, toward the end of it, children are dying. They're either offering them to idols, they're doing abortion, but the children are dying, every single one of them. And I thought. And that's what we're doing here in America, we're killing our children. And so that has really become a kind of a more in depth issue for me than it used to be. I guess I didn't really change my mind recently, but it's become more important to me.

[46:39] KRISTEN NORTON: So you must be pretty pleased with what's happening in Texas.

[46:42] LINDA COLLINS: Yes, yes, yes. Because I think we've made it so easy that we have. We have contraception. We have all of these ways not to get pregnant, but we've made abortion so easy, it has become the method of choice, which I don't think is correct. Plus I've talked to and talked to women who counsel with women who've had abortions and talked to people and realize that it devastates a lot of women. It just. They don't realize when they do it, it's afterward that they have this devastation in their soul and it's so harmful for our people. It's a trauma for them.

[47:25] KRISTEN NORTON: Yeah. I'm just thinking, you know, that idea of contraception, definitely, although they've really limited women's access to that also. But I'm also thinking about the ways in which that law prohibits it. Even in cases of rape, in which case there's no chance of contraception or an incest where you really don't. No choices involved there. And so when we start to think about it like that, I'm just wondering if that shifts how you view it.

[47:55] LINDA COLLINS: Well, the last time I read any statistics on it, which was a while ago, the rape and incest piece was like 0.009%. It was such a very, very teeny tiny piece. You couldn't say all the rest of it's okay because of this. It. It just didn't. Right.

[48:15] KRISTEN NORTON: I just think of making exceptions in those. 0,000 cases. Yeah.

[48:20] LINDA COLLINS: I could probably identify. I mean that. That's something I would definitely want to consider because I could see a woman who was raped or especially incest. Incest. It's so, so evil and so traumatic. Anyway, it's something that.

[48:34] KRISTEN NORTON: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I, you know, I just think in a lot of ways it. It doesn't consider that this is not always women's choice. Right. This getting pregnant is not always their choice. And so I was just. When I was looking at the Texas law, I was thinking particularly how they were really adamant about those also being included in this. In this ban. So I was just wondering if that was a place for you to.

[49:06] LINDA COLLINS: I would be interested. I would be interested if they keep any Statistics of how many women starting now, you know, how many women, because of the law, begin to get contraception that didn't before, and then how many would have been out of rape and incest compared to all the rest? Yeah, having been a mathematician and accountant and everything, I'm always into the numbers. Don't give me the numbers.

[49:32] KRISTEN NORTON: Right. No, data is really important. I just think about, in terms of rape and incest, it doesn't always get reported for obvious reasons, you know, and so. And by reported, I mean to somebody who's actually doing the counting. And then do you count it as rape if they. If they make accusations and then the person doesn't get charged? You know, so there's just all these complications and gathering that sort of data, even though it would be nice to have it, that data in those cases is not always reliable because of all of the shame that goes along with the victims and not wanting to, you know, say, hey, this is what my father or my uncle or my brother was doing to me. So I'm just, you know, thinking all of the. All of the ways in which that data just might not be as completely accurate as we would like. So, look, Sonia, do you have more questions for me for Linda?

[50:27] SPEAKER C: We've got five more minutes. We got five more minutes. And these are some suggested questions, if you'd like. You can choose any of them, or you could come up with your own if you like. But, yeah, just to kind of close things off.

[50:44] LINDA COLLINS: How can we come together after a pandemic and a divisive election this past year? I think you hit the nail on the head with the leadership. We need leadership that's willing to say, I'm for the people. This is what do the people want? We need to do what the people want. Not what you want for your campaign or what you want for your particular little group of people, but for the whole. And I think if we could find a leader that would look at the whole rather than the pieces, I think that would help us come together.

[51:17] KRISTEN NORTON: Yeah, I think so, too. And I think, you know, having conversations with people and looking for common ground, you know, one of the things I've learned in our conversation today is despite the fact that we disagree on a lot of things, there's still some common ground, you know, that we can agree upon and some, you know, some things that we both value. So that was a really good takeaway for me today to start. Start to think about looking for that common ground with other people just for myself. Right. In which ways might we see things the same way, so that when we start to differ on it, we can start from the place where we agree and then think about what might start to bring us back together to that place. Right. So that's one of the things that I think has been really important, and one of my big takeaways from today is how can I look for places that actually align with my values, even though the whole big picture maybe doesn't. Maybe parts of it do?

[52:28] LINDA COLLINS: I think volunteering at the hospital has just been wonderful because we are very different. All of us volunteers, but we all come together to volunteer at the hospital, and that's one of those. We found common ground there, and we're all serving, and we love it.

[52:46] KRISTEN NORTON: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a really good example, too, of being in spaces with people who might have different motivations and reasons for serving, but everybody's in the act of service together. So I think that's a. That's another good thing to think about.

[52:59] SPEAKER C: All right, well, on that note, thank you so much. That was really great to witness this conversation. How was it for you both?

[53:11] LINDA COLLINS: Oh, it's always fun to talk to somebody else, to meet somebody new, right?

[53:17] KRISTEN NORTON: Yeah, I feel the same way.

[53:20] SPEAKER C: All right, well, thank you so much.

[53:22] KRISTEN NORTON: I'm going to.