Kristen Tordella-Williams and Matthew Holl

00:03 Hi, my name is Kristen tordella-williams and I am 33 years old. Today's date is Saturday, February 27th, 2021 and we are on Millsaps college campus in Jackson, Mississippi and I hear with my husband at all.

00:23 I am mess hall and 43 years old.

00:31 I'm sorry. I thought what she was doing Saturday, February 27th. 2021 Jackson Mississippi with my wife Kristen tordella-williams.

00:44 Hi, so we listen to a recording this morning. It's 6 years ago us it was before we got married. It was a little bit strange to hear a voice and he said my voice sounded different.

01:00 He's not a pretty much the same. Yeah, we talked a lot about education because I think both of our jobs require art and you're still a teacher but it is different from when it was then when I talk to about a little bit of a difference when I spoke to each other via storycorps. We run our first year teaching here in the South which would have been my

01:34 17th year teaching overall having done 16 years in the public schools in New York Upstate New York. New York City as a French and Spanish teacher and in the interview we did before I was toward the end of my first year and only year has a French and Spanish teacher in the Jackson Public School System actually left teaching after that year ended and I did not go back.

02:13 Results

02:16 Just kind of helpless and a lot of Despair and just disconnected from the entire profession and not really

02:26 Like it was worthwhile anymore. I remember you saying you can't feel the effect is at your job. So I didn't feel like the job really mattered. Despite it being a graduation requirement. It was it was a chat box.

02:45 You know having having your profession your career reduced to a checkmark on somebody's transcript was pretty the meeting. So I

02:55 Didn't want to do it anymore. I think there's more to it than that. We don't have to.

03:05 It was it was a very start change from New York state public schools, which had my experience has been that though. They have their own unique challenges. They they were functional and support for teachers and you know the vast majority of teachers. I encountered were good teachers who were interested in teaching well,

03:28 And it it seems like so to continue the story now, I didn't teach for a year and then I went back to teaching in the public school in a different way. So I became a theater teacher and instead of just being high school. I took a job at a public school, which is an Arts Magnet have students grades 4 through 12 and that's where I've been for the last.

03:58 I guess this is my fifth year there.

04:02 And I'm you know through the pandemic gate has really shown the light on.

04:09 How poor of the relations are country highlighting the things that I saw in my my first job and though I'm in a different School building. I am still associated with the same high school that I was before. There are 40 some-odd school buildings in this district is 24000 kids and you know, I service very tiny population that comes from three different school. So we have students in elementary school with students Boston from the middle school and then students from the high school where I started and it's it's a it's a totally different vibe and it a totally different job. And for the most part I felt much more at home.

04:55 There's more continuity in your colleagues a lot more continuity.

05:04 You know that the language Department before was was not really Department of his just names in a list and nobody really work together to achieve anything and there was a whole lot of communication or Karen everything we do now is is very team-oriented because we potentially have the students for 9 years in a row I'll be there has to be some vertical building as well and a lot more communication and it's it's definitely a better fit for me. I enjoy it. It allows me to do the things in my main curriculum that I've always done extracurricular Lee, which I really enjoy and personally is

05:54 Just kind of re highlight of the same issues that you know, my school my currents will suffers from the same problems that all schools this District to an exception and has problems from what I can see her administrative situation between teachers and administrators. He had four different principles Last 5 Years.

06:27 How to say that the Portables that starts prevent like the visual arts part of this school every building yet in this public school has additional cortical Portable Buildings for a temporary that are supposed to be temporary and most of them are going on fifteen twenty years of use some of their rotting and moldy in gross but my my classroom in the school has had a ceiling leak a significant one for 3 years and it's just starting to be addressed but there's just not the resources to take care of all the problems that the district is far too large to really manage itself effectively with a lot of upload being in the administration.

07:24 And a lot of the problems in communication have really been brought to the Forefront during this pandemic because

07:34 The district very clearly made the choice that all the decisions they were making and all the in all the input. They were looking for was on the parent side which you know, I respect trying to do what's right for the students, but

07:52 There was a long time when the teachers in teaching staff and faculty were not even contacted. Hey, what do you guys think or you're the ones are going to have to be mandating and like managing the classroom. Like what is your what is your input on like the decisions were making there's we were asked for was a 7 question survey with no open-ended responses and will dictate the terms. After the first semester.

08:31 Teachers who were also parents of students in the district were given accommodation to stay at home as we're pretty much every one of the district during virtual learning time. And then everyone all the parents were asked to make an accommodation Choice whether they would want to send their children back or keep the virtual and then after those choices were made the teachers were informed that they would no longer be receiving Child Care accommodations. So all of the teachers who selected virtual learning for their children suddenly had to switch their children to in-person learning or higher Health Care Child Care or it basically it just it

09:17 It really exacerbate a lot of problems that were there and I think one of the biggest problems that the district faces is teacher retention as far as I can tell there is no question for a teacher retention program. It's it's more like

09:38 Yeah, I wouldn't they would much rather hire Teach for America teachers by the score in hopes of keeping a few of them. But knowing they can hire more than next year as opposed to training teachers and making teachers feel like a part of the process to the point where they're actually yeah, I would I would rather feel like somebody in an office downtown had any clue what I went through and what I thought on a daily basis.

10:13 Because right now there is such a disconnect between what teacher say think and feel and what's actually happening at the decision-making level and

10:26 We find out as teachers hell out of the decisions after the fact because they're sent to

10:35 Another they're sent to students and parents first. So where we find out about information from students because it never comes through an official Channel and that's you know, that's that's kind of hurtful when you know, you're surprised by information that you're supposed to be an entire year of that and it's it's wearing very thin and we feel like the most neglected voice entire situation. It's easy to think about it like, oh that's that's just seems like his actual problem, but it's freaking huge problem. And I know this is been the most stressful Year my career and

11:35 It's been the most unpredictable time and it's been incredibly hard to focus on teaching and like let it like just what I know. This has been talked about all the time at like when everybody under the cement stress and the conditions are changing day today a how how is that conducive to learning? And it just makes me so mad because of the beginning of the pandemic there's all this talk of like well, it's a new future and Bubba, but it's like if we wanted to like we could have just stopped, you know what I mean and said a few people are in a billion dollars, like that's that was the I think it came to a head like

12:17 Kind of came to head for me watching our superintendent to a common Council and one, council members said we considered delaying the opening of school. This is back in August and he just seemed confounded by the question. What do you mean? That's that's what they do. There was no ability to think about the area where we didn't do exactly what we normally do that. It seems like they they talk about Innovation, but when it comes down to it Innovation means they do the same thing. They just make a video about it.

13:03 Our district seems way too into their media presence and not actually what to say and I've I tried it you hold us my heart because it's so radically different teaching in these can under these conditions and verifications and the ability for us to do you think their students or students are only capable of being so flexible when receiving so much information in such a different way to like on both sides were only so able and like

13:35 Where the one setting these metrics so why can't we be the ones to change it? Like why does it's an older van behind long and what and then why why are schools funding time to S course? Like I understand that they wanted to have some accountability but does it make sense to take away funding from a school that has low test scores. How is that logical always hate to even more reason? It's beyond test scores. It's also act there's also one of the one of the reasons that we even have the push or being back in person was because we have a 13% of our student population is by definition homeless and they don't have a thick spot where they sleep every night now in that 30% some of them are like living quite comfortably with grandparents, so it's not always like living on the street level of homeless, but

14:32 Where are there are some in that those extreme cases and we saw a distinct lack of attendance for a certain population. But what the district never made clear was of the 30 are the 26% of respondents who decided to come back in person of those 26% What did they represent as far as the people who had not been attending? Yeah. Yeah, and when the district made the choice that if every if a family did not respond at all, the default option was just a virtual. So if you have parents who don't have internet access and families who don't have you know, a fixed home where they can access the internet, how are they taking part in the survey, which if they don't they remain for sure. So there's there's just been a lot of like

15:24 And and when it when it's brought up, it's completely just unanswered. We we've had exactly one chance as teachers one live session with our superintendent this year that the entire district and that's been my big problem is there has been no chance. I'm confused but people want a chance to see a sumption that you know, they're making the best choice for everybody without actually checking it is the best choice for you.

16:11 I mean, although I do think like JPS on a hole like the fact that you were virtual throughout through the fall. I mean it does. Okay. It's like if it is actually tied to the numbers we should be getting to be all-powerful right now. Right I gave these things are actually tied to the numbers of your talk about people when things were much worse.

16:56 Specifically not addressed and all the things that we talked about it that time which would be like, okay now we're going to have to make sure that all the teams are wearing a mask that they're going to stay distance like a boiler did the same students every class time. I had to tell it's like how is this something that you had to be reminded? It makes me infuriated and then it's like why why do I have to tell you to like say doesn't but at the same time they're like kids, you know what I mean? They're not they're not capable of always just like thinking outside of their experience like we talked about that last interview actually and so we're the adults in the room understand this and if you'll just like this heart needs to be put in a situation where you like, well I could be the person who's infecting all these other students need a person who's like going on the community being the asymptomatic spider and like being responsible for whatever you do the virtual want to keep my job because I have no other choice but to be in person

17:56 There is not all of our colleagues believe that it's a real thing. I see other students with their masks off. I see the teacher pull her mask down to talk to somebody and send it.

18:17 I understand completely why the kids don't take it seriously because they're adults don't take it. Seriously because America yeah freedom freedom is never free except my freedom, which is the expense of everyone else and then like I do I do feels like glimpses of Hope of like the vaccination roll out and and his idea like, oh my God that maybe one day I'll be able to you know hug, somebody besides me and we've been to people who are a r-pod who is singing this year inside her house and I haven't seen my family in over a year now and seen your family. Your mom in a long is planning a gummy that you canceled it.

19:10 It's it's going to be really it is just there. I thought many times is here where it's like am I the crazy one? Am I insane special in the fall? If I am I the Crazy Ones for like being very sore right now. I feel like I'm not it is like the cognitive dissonance that you live every day. And then you have to like then have on top of that gets be the leader in the classroom and be kind of like a cheerleader when it's like the last thing I wanted to do was the guy you're going to be offered. I suffered you suffered. I was all right because I haven't been able to like understand what it is that I'm supposed to be doing in order to reach them and still feel like I'm being safe and yeah.

20:00 So I can't imagine other teachers who are in the K through 12 system had to be in prison life.

20:08 Are we currently have on our biggest day? We have 11 in my department and my colleague takes all of them so she can space them out, but then it allows me and my other colleagues to teach without a mask on so they can actually hear and see what we're doing a resume because despite having students in the classroom. Everything is still on the computer because hybrid model so the majority of our students are still at home or hybrid without without any training go ahead and do this successfully. So everybody's happy in the student body is like not ready for that one lesson for the online and one less than the in class and somehow making the Equitable or are you teaching the class people and just take it to your

21:08 Teaching is going to sit there and watch a lecture without being on their phone looking at the freaking Tik Tok which is way more interesting because it's

21:17 I don't know people it's fun. It's people like Tik Tok.

21:28 I think there's a lot of digital tools out there and I feel like without other teachers like in my internet communities. I would have been totally left out in like an alert. I'm very grateful for the for the the sharing that's happened and like the community. That's Arisen on on Facebook for me specifically with other Fine Arts instructors. Cuz without the I think I would have just like I didn't know what to do. You know when you keep things that are Hands-On building things right? Like that's the reason why things are taking the class and then and then might have a whole classroom and strong. I feel really well for my drawing classes because my teaching style had to be attacking incredibly radically in a totally different doing for my entire career, so

22:28 What to expect success or even like great learning in these under these circumstances will Harvey but to not want to be like as a teacher is my responsibility to be important information and students take an art class there because they want to enjoy it and then they just like did not and it was just like I had nothing else to pour into it because they're just a loan of crap for is it for recording recording demos and like throwing up?

23:00 Yeah, I think I think we're in a unique bow academically being that we're Arts teachers because is away from its a release. It's something usually therapeutic and enjoyable and that people who enjoy are generally do it for those things.

23:30 And they may want to learn a new skill or technique but it's not vital to them enjoying it. And then you have people who take art classes thinking it's all going to be the fun part of Art and then you're trying to teach them skills and techniques and it's just not what they signed up for and I I see it. I think you see it and students understand a little bit what it is like Oh, I thought I was just to be able to have fun and draw it, but I see it but I don't like you like you like you like performance. You don't necessarily want to learn about Theater history.

24:19 Yeah white people clapping for you. You don't want to learn about theater.

24:25 You're not dramatic chick kid your extra but I mean at the same time there's they're offering in-person classes. It's like, well not the same way that I could you know, like there is like to come back in the middle of pandemic already is a privilege is Mo school. A lot of college was going to say like what I seen is like 60 to 70 per-cent. I've been completely virtual and the fact that they do even get that back to the studios and do get like that in person instruction is great and a privilege but it's like okay that comes in a class. Like I can't have all of you in the same place. I can't I can't be giving that immediate feedback that I'm used to giving and I had to find other ways to do that is all delayed and it feels like this huge amount of work. And in reality we're doing way less strong than we were before and I'm thinking critically about myself starting drawing cuz I did.

25:21 Fall flat on my face but like I wasn't really setup 62 nobody was

25:27 Yeah, there's very little space. I got there is no guy likes you fine art faculty. So we're kind of like we'll figure do something. You know, like I don't know when I compare it to my could you just at a public institution? She was like my friend and her students to be able to look for the same information the same place but then when they read it reading that seems reading comprehension so important you say you would like those templates for Matt now, it is nice for the uniformity of being able to say well it's the same console.

26:26 When you get the same exact format of syllabus and every class you go. I know where things are faster is the one that didn't take the quiz more work than you think it is. And if you'll be activating different neurons in your brain because you were going to be creating art and drama terms Urban objects of drawing them and your skills and techniques and you know, it's going to be more challenging. I'm not going to be like for me to say that there isn't like there is that I have totally that slid on my rigger I would say like, they're not they're not help with the same standards but also light

27:25 Apple unit out of the class and they Dubai.

27:30 I say like 50% of the amount of drugs.

27:34 We haven't done. I haven't done a full production in over a year.

27:44 We left for spring break last year. I had just handed out audition packets to my high schoolers and we were they were getting psyched to come back and do it that we were going to do a really interesting staging and yeah, but together in the same place to do something like that again.

28:33 And we we've already committed to not going back and forth on this year as a theater group just to be part of the solution not tempt people to be in large groups Lil Baby perform on stage Productions, but like the majority of my teaching is, you know, I I direct the spring play and I I build a bunch of stats and I am unable to do either while and like about I mean, we've been really fortunate that personally know very few people who have died from probing it. I know a lot of people and several people of active. Yeah. I know people have been affected. I I I think like there's a grease there and then there's for me I can just grief is like the

29:33 Lost parallel the opportunity. I know students feel this to end in like this like daydreaming of like, oh, what if what if you know what it is like to push those feeling down and like, you know, if I can compartmentalize my brain anymore, I would be like like Raiders of the Lost Ark Indonesia, but all of these boxes in the secret government facility.

30:06 Yeah, you have them to some extent be able to do that as a teacher already. Like if you have something going on in your life. Yes. It's okay to like share that with your students, but you still have to like you have a responsibility to show and if you can't show up then you should like take time away, but we're not in a society that values teachers of her life. So we have work to teachers. It's parallel existence.

30:47 It is haunting is it hunting is like oh, well if it were his other year, you know, I like all of the things that we had to keep that in the during the big cancellation moments as like well, okay. I mean, I feel like I've moved past degrees of the big cancel, but now we're it's just like this deeper. Yeah, I think like we have given up so much and to get everybody everybody has been to get through the day by day. You have to like focus on that and in the present moment, I like the next thing I have to do and there's just so much less enjoyment. I think in the sun's like you you talk about how you were able to answer with your other day and just just do the student who I'm getting it a little bit more like I think we've all kind of calmed us. I think a lot of that initial S my French

31:47 I think we will all hopefully there's like a little bit more equilibrium. And so it opens up that room for the band room for like to ask a question at the end of the gym call. Like they would it were that in person class for me. I've noticed that and I don't know if it's just like I seen more available cuz I definitely am available.

32:12 It was just like a waking nightmare.

32:17 Early, like 4-5 months until like the very end of this mess around like I'm finally able to breathe again.

32:25 Well, I barely hoping Monday we cuz we we've been virtual again recently due to the cold weather in San leave. The city is destroyed the back up. So I think I think we're about to go back into the classroom. And the thing that just kills me. There is we have so few students in school by the district is still just obsessed with control and they want to know where their teachers are. So we're all shuffled back into work last and so they know what room you were in using their dilapidated Wi-Fi as opposed to you know, the wife I paid good money for a home.

33:25 We're all in this little building. Yeah. Yeah, it's it's it's just again.

33:33 A lot about checking boxes and control and it feels a lot like were in like an abusive relationship where you know, a controlling abuser is worried about where you are all the time. Yeah and checking up on you and it's not about what actually is happening. The education bounce about the the the look that's being presented. I think she wants to show these teachers in the classroom and show the static ation that absolutely nobody feels well valued because it's a woman's job and you know, that's not true anymore when can get other jobs, and I know that this is

34:28 Tiger jumping a man in the teaching profession. Your artwork is undervalued regardless of her gender. So it's like

34:37 Sexism impacts boats all people all Sexes and this is endemic in our society. We we we value the teacher who do sacrifices everything is changing from her hospital bed. Looks like that is not. Okay and I don't believe this is major issues before the pandemic like in Oklahoma will the teachers striking you saw a lot of different states where teachers are striking and it's like this is been at this is a problem is going to continue to be a problem and it is similar to the infrastructure in Jackson. Like this has been a problem is going to continue to be a problem regardless of who is in the white house until we decide to come together and change it and

35:20 I I I hate to say this, but it doesn't give me much hope looking at how people responded to the pandemic.

35:27 And I like oh, I need to put a mask on for Mike to my for my neighbor. Who's a hundred years old right? Like yeah. Okay. That's not a problem.

35:38 And I think the Articles only tangentially related to what I'm saying. I feel like it's more that we have.

35:52 Educational doctors who are in positions of power in an Administration who have very very very limited actual classroom experience. Like they might have talked for two years. I became a principal then became an administrator. So their time as a teacher

36:13 Is so tiny of a part of their experience in a school that when they're making decisions for teachers and reference that classroom experience. That's as bulshit. You know, it it be like

36:28 You know if if this were a restaurant.

36:33 And I'm the general manager and I've been working there for 15 years in this new kid comes in his rolling silverware. He's like, well, here's how I think we should run the line those decisions. You have a fucking been here yet. I grow some silverware for another like like that. Anyway by I kind of want to shake some administrators and just say

36:54 Go to actually teach some classes at not one for a couple of years. Yeah, and then come back with your bullshit theory on how we can make this better because you might see this has nothing to do with our actual job. And then when they try to enact pedagogy is it is laughable or PLC. Sorry.

37:21 It's such an exhaustive and like complete process and they're basically labeling faculty meetings as PLC and it's just it's not it's ya.

37:32 It's like saying you're part of Mensa because you know where the Mensa meetings happen. Like I went to visit PLC in Safe Haven actor that you can't you know by a curriculum and say you've changed things, you know, you're just forcing teachers who actually know how to teach the bends teaching to something that you read an article on and decided for money. This is reminds me of just like why there so few people going to and then like this will never be a problem for the people in power because they can pay in the love of the people who go into teaching and don't like it become administrator as long as you get the fuck out of the class cuz they don't like me because of the administrator.

38:32 I don't know if it's the snake eating its own tail. And I did it does it does it bleeds it leads in where it leads hour or two until like the education is the basis for yourself up. If you don't have access to a good education and you can't pay to go to collect. I don't want to talk my graduating seniors to go get their masters because I think like you're going to be even more and then maybe you'll get a job as a professor and then one second and then you will and then you will have to be in even more. And then like maybe you'll land the lucky. Like I landed a lucky job position but bite by virtue of like somebody that I knew right and

39:22 I I don't know if it's a hard thing, but I want her to be more diversity and The Undertaker and undervalued for the rest of your profession.

39:39 Is Joy conversation we had today?

39:43 Pickle wrap it up there. I am lucky though. I think I think for me like being able to make art and connect with students who want to do that. That's like what keeps me there isn't that connection keeps me in the classroom. I know you like it's been an extra hard year because it doesn't feel like that's been loved like the majority of my time as I've been spent that way with his mother been able to do that with with students again and like feel that connection again in that spend a little bit reinvigorating be like, oh, yeah. I remember why I want to do this in the first place, but I have that loss again like that grieving of that loss in like

40:21 Yeah, it itches like season 2 that that feeling of like why am I here? What am I doing here? Like isn't even worth me sacrificing my life to be here and the Jordans are being now is not worth my life to be in the classroom right now. Not anymore.

40:38 But yet here we are doing it for now for now. We are doing it teaching teachers kids.

40:52 Yeah, I think do I run for office and change the system? I don't know. I don't have an answer anyway.

41:02 Yay, now storycorps gets a window into our little brain parts.