Lance Carrithers and Paul Blythe

[00:01] LANCE CARRITHERS: My name is Lance. I'm 62 years old. Today is July 19, 2024. I am in Wichita, Kansas. My One Small Steps partner is Paul.

[00:12] PAUL BLYTHE: My name is Paul. I'm 87 years old. Today is July 19, 2024. I'm in Wichita, Kansas, and my one small step partner is Lance. What made you want to do the interview today?

[00:33] LANCE CARRITHERS: A couple of things. I was intrigued by the one small step process. I'd seen it in social media, had also heard it on StoryCorps, talked about. But then I met someone who participated in a conversation like this one, and she found it to be just really a positive experience. And so that was really kind of the driving point to make me go ahead then and apply and be a part of it. So that's kind of what brought me here today. And what made you want to do this interview?

[01:12] PAUL BLYTHE: Well, I saw it and you know, first of all, I count myself as a conservative, but I have a very diverse group of friends. And I suppose that, you know, to sit down and find your thinking process is something I'd think be very interesting to me. So.

[01:37] LANCE CARRITHERS: Yeah, good. So we read the bio of our partner. Paul's bio. I am 87 and live alone. I have a serious relationship with a female friend. I am a regular church member and volunteer at the local homeless shelter which I helped start. My wife and I moved to rural Newton, Kansas in 1975 so our four daughters could attend a Christian school started by three Mennonite churches. I count myself as a conservative, but like listening to other views and have a diverse group of friends. I think the thing I'd like to know a little bit more about is the homeless shelter that you helped start. That's interesting.

[02:24] PAUL BLYTHE: Twenty years ago, there was an organization in Newton called New Jerusalem Missions, and it was run by a lady called Penny Dugan. And I had, you know, at least some interest in starting a homeless shelter. And they had put in the paper that they were interested in starting one. But I knew Jerusalem was kind of a strange name and I wasn't sure when to get involved. And then they had a little thing in the paper that they were going to meet at the local rec center, which would be like the Y today. And I thought, oh, neutral ground. I'll give that a try, you know. Well, she was a very magnetic person and I really got turned on to this. And we started this thing out in the basement of the old hospital and I mean, it was primitive and we thought it would be like the occasional transient. From day one, we were never empty again. And it was mostly local people. And my response is that if you're working at McDonald's and you end up in the emergency room, you're homeless. And it was those kind of situations. I mean, it was a broad spectrum of situations. And we learned a lot running it. I was the original board chairman, she wanted her board to run it. And I said no, it needed to be a local board. And I won that argument. And there was an attorney on our. Started out as an advisory committee and we started it. And I mean, in the beginning we were down there like, I was down there like two, three nights a week. And there was just this group of us that got dedicated to it. To make the story very short, we just finished our own new three and a half million dollar building and it's paid for.

[05:10] LANCE CARRITHERS: Great.

[05:11] PAUL BLYTHE: Yeah. And I was out there last night volunteering.

[05:16] LANCE CARRITHERS: Just one little quick follow up. The old hospital, was it the Axtell Hospital or Beth Deaconess? The Axtell.

[05:21] PAUL BLYTHE: Axtell. New Jerusalem is still there. But I was going to say it was hard to get agreements between New Jerusalem and our board. And we finally moved out and moved on to the Youthville campus for probably five years and they wanted us off and that's when we started building program. Well, Lance, you grew up in western Kansas where.

[06:04] LANCE CARRITHERS: Well, I think you're supposed to read my Bible.

[06:06] PAUL BLYTHE: Oh, I'm sorry. I'm the youngest of six. Youngest of six siblings. Married to the youngest of six siblings. My wife and I both grew up in western Kansas on farms and have very similar backgrounds. And I've been married for 41 years, have been a United Methodist pastor for 35 years. And my faith influences my beliefs in diversity, inclusivity and the well being of my neighbor. Increasingly, I have encountered persons in churches that I have served with whom I have strong disagreements when it comes to social issues. I'm going to start out by asking you this. Growing up in western Kansas.

[06:55] LANCE CARRITHERS: Well, about as far west as you can go and stay in the state. I grew up barely in Stanton county on the Stanton and Hamilton county line, midway between Johnson and Syracuse.

[07:07] PAUL BLYTHE: Okay.

[07:08] LANCE CARRITHERS: Grew up on a dry land wheat farm. We were tenant farmers, didn't own any of our own land, but grew a lot of wheat out in that country. And I'm, as I mentioned, the youngest of six and quite a bit younger than my siblings. So my parents are World War II generation or were World War II generation folks because I was so much younger than my siblings. I was born when they were in their late 30s, early 40s, but my wife Then is also from western Kansas. She's from Ness county, not quite as far west, kind of north of Dodge City a bit. And she also is the youngest of six kids that grew up on a. Grew up on a farm and a little more diversity in their farming. They have a little more water in that part of the state than we had out in ours and cattle and things of that nature. Yeah.

[08:13] PAUL BLYTHE: Well, my wife grew up in eastern Colorado, and I said, that's western Kansas, only worse. So.

[08:22] LANCE CARRITHERS: Yeah, people often say, you know, it's not the end of the world, but you can see it from there.

[08:28] PAUL BLYTHE: Yeah.

[08:28] LANCE CARRITHERS: So maybe. Maybe that's a reference to eastern Colorado. I don't know. Well, Paul, tell me about one or two people in your life who have had the biggest influence on you, and what did they teach you?

[08:50] PAUL BLYTHE: My father probably had the greatest influence on me. My mother died when I was 7, and kind of like you, I was the youngest and by quite a bit, I think. My dad was 39 when I was born, and he was kind of the forever deacon. And this was in the Baptist church. A compassionate man. Called out a lot of people in the hospital, and occasionally we had somebody in our home that. There was one time there was a couple going through town and they had an accident and they ended up in the hospital. And then one of them got out and they, you know. But he was just really a very good man. Never married again, raised us four kids. And we'd gather in his bedroom at night and he'd read a chapter in the Bible. And he was just a very devout person, you know, formed a lot of my thinking spiritually. How about the one or two people in your life?

[10:38] LANCE CARRITHERS: Well, in college I went to Bethel College, and that's why I know Newton.

[10:44] PAUL BLYTHE: Oh, okay.

[10:44] LANCE CARRITHERS: So. But when I was in college, I had a friend, Amy Louise, and I was having a good time in school, and Amy Louise saw me having a good time in school. Every week she'd invite me to church with her, and I had every reason in the world not to go and would make excuses and say things like, oh, I'm not sure, you know, that that would be for me, or anything of that nature. And I don't know, she wore me down. It probably took a year, but I finally just thought, you know, to get her off my back, I oughta. Ought to just go to church with her once. And I went to church with her, and it was a church unlike any I'd ever been in. I kind of grew up in a very. Called the Pilgrim Holiness Church. Not quite Pentecostal, but pretty. Pretty fire and brimstone. Anyway.

[11:46] PAUL BLYTHE: Okay.

[11:48] LANCE CARRITHERS: And so I really hadn't had anything to do with church since my childhood. And so I went with her to church. And it literally was a commune in North Newton.

[12:02] PAUL BLYTHE: Oh, wow.

[12:03] LANCE CARRITHERS: This group of young families that all owned their property together, all watched each other's kids and had kind of a common purse out of which they did things. And they had. In the basement of one of these big old houses is where they had church. And instead of one preacher kind of pointing their finger at you and telling you that you're going to hell in a hand basket and you better sort it out, they literally took turns. And it was the first time in my life that I heard a gospel of Jesus care and concern and love for people on the margins and people who were outcast and heard a message that God loved me the way a father would love a son that had gone off and come back home. And it changed my life. Oh, wow. And, in fact, I tell that story often because Amy Louise died about three, four years ago, and I never took the opportunity. I never made the opportunity to tell her. Oh, yeah. That it was her kind of persistent invitations that brought me back into a lifelong relationship with Jesus. And I just. That's a hurt in my heart that I never got a chance to tell her that. But she had an influence on me that just became a lifelong influence. And so, yeah, that's who I'd share.

[13:45] PAUL BLYTHE: Did that continue, do you know?

[13:48] LANCE CARRITHERS: No. In fact, I was there in the early 80s, very early 80s. And I think that. I don't know for certain, but I had heard that by about the mid-90s, that commune had kind of lived out its life and broke apart. But I think through the 70s and most of the 80s, it was. Yeah, it was pretty active there.

[14:16] PAUL BLYTHE: That was kind of the time of the Jesus movement thing, and.

[14:19] LANCE CARRITHERS: Yeah, yeah. And, you know, it really was. It was kind of a hippie, dippy commune community. But they had a beautiful worship service and a message about Christ that just never went away for me.

[14:38] PAUL BLYTHE: Then how did you become a Methodist out of all of that?

[14:44] LANCE CARRITHERS: Yeah. My wife grew up in the United Methodist Church, and her grandmother was dying when we were engaged to be married. And she said, always go to church together. You know, don't. Don't one of you go and the other not always go together. And she said, and it can be any church. Just go together. She said, but I'd prefer it would be the United Methodist Church.

[15:08] PAUL BLYTHE: Okay.

[15:09] LANCE CARRITHERS: So we started out in our Life together down in Hugoton. And we visited the United Methodist Church. And I heard echoed the very same gospel message that I found in that little house church in Newton. A God of love and grace and mercy revealed in a. In a person of Jesus that asks only that we love God with everything that we have and love our neighbor the way we love ourselves. And that is built around compassion and concern for those that are. That are our neighbors and strangers and even enemies, you know, and so that's. And so that, yeah, that drew me into the United Methodist Church.

[15:57] PAUL BLYTHE: Okay.

[15:59] LANCE CARRITHERS: Yeah. You want to go to the next card?

[16:07] PAUL BLYTHE: Yeah. Could you briefly describe in your own words, your personal political views?

[16:15] LANCE CARRITHERS: Yeah, I'm pretty progressive, have been a registered Democrat, although there's been a couple of elections that I've stepped out and registered as an independent. But I keep returning to the Democratic Party. I'm on a personal level, pretty fiscally conservative. I'm pretty frugal and watch a dollar and am concerned about where my dollars go. But at the same time, socially, I think my dollars and my pocketbook should go to serve me less and serve the needs of the common good of more people. And so for that reason, I think that's kind of why that fits for me. And what about you? Could you, in your words, describe your personal political values?

[17:30] PAUL BLYTHE: Well, first of all, I'm a registered Republican, so I am not a Trumpster. I just feel in a lot of ways like he's stolen the Republican Party. You know, I guess where I disagree with the Democratic Party is that I'm not a big government person. I would go back and say a lot of the things the government is doing the church ought to be doing instead. And I will say, well, I think I might have voted for Biden in the last election, not because I wanted him, but it was my way of saying I knew Kansas was going to go Republican anyhow. And it was my way of saying, get a better candidate.

[19:02] LANCE CARRITHERS: Kind of a protest.

[19:03] PAUL BLYTHE: It was a protest vote. And I do that sometimes when I know things is going one way, I will vote the other way. Not because I necessarily want that way, but it's a protest vote. And.

[19:25] LANCE CARRITHERS: Well, you know, I have a lot of respect. As we mentioned, I grew up out in western Kansas. Western Kansas is a very conservative.

[19:37] PAUL BLYTHE: Yes, it is.

[19:38] LANCE CARRITHERS: But very pragmatic and take care of your neighbor kind of place. And so, of course, I had many, many friends that were pretty conservative Republicans, but always could see eye to eye on many things, many issues. And I think my concern also has been in the pendulum swinging to this bullying kind of whatever serves the power structure.

[20:22] PAUL BLYTHE: Yes.

[20:22] LANCE CARRITHERS: Of the party is all we're going to be concerned about.

[20:27] PAUL BLYTHE: Yeah.

[20:28] LANCE CARRITHERS: And that is where, you know, I think in my bio, when I mentioned disagreement with people and congregations that I've served, it's those disagreements when people just absolutely, you know, they get locked in because of party.

[20:48] PAUL BLYTHE: Oh, yes.

[20:49] LANCE CARRITHERS: And therefore anything that the party offers is right and correct. Even if it is Donald Trump. And even. And to justify or to excuse things that I've just found personally. Well, just. Just very difficult to understand. Yeah. Yet can't seem to reason with some sum over that. You know, because I'll ask, well, how is it, you know, the Republican Party that I've known all my life in Kansas.

[21:27] PAUL BLYTHE: Yeah.

[21:28] LANCE CARRITHERS: Has done a lot of good and physically pretty conservative and made sure that there was good accountability for dollars spent. How did that become what many Republicans are supporting today? So that's. Yeah.

[21:48] PAUL BLYTHE: Well, it kind of goes back to. I feel that Trump stole the party.

[22:04] LANCE CARRITHERS: Do you mind if I. So there's one of these suggested questions that says, if you had five minutes with the president, what would you say? I might switch that just a little. If you had five minutes then with Donald Trump.

[22:19] PAUL BLYTHE: Okay.

[22:19] LANCE CARRITHERS: What. In a closed room, nobody else is listening, what do you think you could say to him?

[22:27] PAUL BLYTHE: Well, I guess one of the things that I could say to him is be civil. I'm trying to think of his name, the senator from Arizona.

[22:43] LANCE CARRITHERS: Oh, John McCain.

[22:45] PAUL BLYTHE: You know, when he was sick and dying, Trump was just awful to him. And, and so I suppose that would be the one thing I would say. And I mean, he's so bombastic. There are some things that he has done that I like. His effort to talk with Kim Jong Un from North Korea I thought was, in a way, a brave endeavor. Maybe it wasn't from Trump because he's so egotistic, but I'm thinking that's what we ought to do is dialogue. And I was disappointed that not more came from that. He was, I will say, told NATO that they needed to carry more of the burden and not just the United States, you know, on military. And, you know, sometimes I think we've been negligent and asking others to do their part. I am quite concerned for Ukraine and I would disagree with the Republicans on that, but I'm not a fan of war either. So one of the things that you said is that you're belief in diversity inclusive. I've encountered persons in my church with whom I have strong disagreement when it comes to social issues. Has that been a problem for your pastorate?

[25:09] LANCE CARRITHERS: No, but there's been losses. There have been people who have separated from the church that I serve or served. I retired here last month.

[25:25] PAUL BLYTHE: Oh, my goodness.

[25:26] LANCE CARRITHERS: But the church that I served, there were people that separated from it because they felt like the church ought to be all of one mind. All of the people in the church ought to be able to agree around all the social issues, whether that was immigration, whether that was war, whether that was abortion, whether that, you know, homosexuality. On any of these issues. If we're not all of the same mind, then I can't be part of this congregation. In the United Methodist Church, we're what we often call a big tent church. It means that across the spectrum, we're not all going to agree about every issue. So how can we disagree respectfully and still find ways to worship together and serve together in Christian service, even if we don't agree in the same pew? And I think my great disappointment is that those people that said no, because I'm too uncomfortable if people don't see things the way I see them, and left.

[26:46] PAUL BLYTHE: I'm laughing because I was one of those people. I said, I grew up Baptist. When we moved to. Well, it's Berean Academy. And I'm not even sure if you. Okay, I do. We moved to rural Newton near Elbing, Kansas. Okay. And sent our four. I had four daughters, and the oldest one was a freshman at the time. And I promised. We had a bad school situation in Atchison. In fact, the seventh and eighth grade. We sent our daughter to the Catholic school. Anyhow, when we moved there, we wanted to be in a church where the other kids were in church. And so we joined one of the Mennonite churches in the area. After our kids were grown, my wife wanted to go back to the Baptist church. Well, my wife taught at berean Academy for 19 years. My daughter teaches there now, and she was a Sunday school teacher for years, and she died in 14. They were remodeling the church, and it was done, except the pews weren't in. And she was so wanting to see this. And so I asked if we could just have the. I'll call it the wake the night before the service there. And, you know, no, nothing. And so, I mean, we were just left looking for some place to have the funeral.

[28:56] LANCE CARRITHERS: Oh, dear.

[28:58] PAUL BLYTHE: And Salem Methodist United Methodist Church. Well, they were kind of at the crossroads. I mean, you know, easy to find. And it sounds like you're very familiar.

[29:13] LANCE CARRITHERS: Yeah, right there on the south end of town.

[29:16] PAUL BLYTHE: Yeah, and called them up. And Nancy, who was the pastor then said, called me back and said, you can use the church. We'll provide the sound people. You can use our family life center for their dinner afterwards, and there will be no cost. It was such a welcoming thing after the other. Then they sent out an email from the Baptist church that her service would be brief, so all the seniors could go to the senior luncheon. And it was just a little too much for me. It was shortly afterwards that I started going to Salem kind of out of appreciation for what they'd done and was there up until about a year and a half ago, or probably less than that. It was after, after the Methodists announced that we're going to have gay marriages, gay pastors, etc. I was uncomfortable with that and I had a lot of friends there and it was hard for me, but I started looking again and I ended up in a Nazarene church, which is kind of back to your holiness background. I'm comfortable with traditional worship. I'm comfortable there, is all I know to say.

[31:17] LANCE CARRITHERS: And, you know, I think a lot goes into a decision to leave a church, but from my perception, when it is over, one really social issue. Because in the United Methodist Church, one of the things we, we've tried to talk about is no one is going to ask or make any congregation or any pastor perform same sex or same gender marriages or to accept a gay or lesbian pastor unless they wish to. You know, and, you know, in my denomination, they'd been fighting about this for over 50 years. 1972 is when they first put in the prohibitions against gay clergy and same sex marriages and said homosexuality was incompatible with Christian teachings. And over 50 years, we fought because everyone wanted everybody to be, again, of one mind to agree on that issue. And of course, the fact of the matter was, no, we didn't all agree. And so what happened here just this year, finally, is they said, let's just take all of that out of the. We have a church law called the Book of Discipline. Let's just take all of that out and quit fighting over it and take out all of the enforcement and the prohibitions and the things that. Where we try to make everybody do one thing and say, you know, if your church is committed to inclusivity or your pastor's committed to inclusivity of those who are LGBTQ plus, if you as a church feel like you want to offer the services of the church, like marriage, then you can do it, but no one's going to punish you. And at the same time, no one's going to punish you if you say no. That isn't who we are. We don't wish to do same gender marriages and we don't wish to have a pastor who is gay and just took out all of the energy and effort that was going into trying to make everybody do the same thing and said for the first time, let's quit fighting about it. There's more important things in the kingdom of God where we could find common ground and do something together than spending all of our energy arguing about this one thing. I don't know how we got from politics to the politics of my denomination.

[34:08] PAUL BLYTHE: Yeah, well, you know, I want to say your denomination for many years was my denomination too. So, you know, I'm thinking that's where we have discussions to a degree. And somehow I feel like we could agree on national and world politics easier than that which comes so close to home for us. I suppose that. Well.

[34:54] LANCE CARRITHERS: Can I ask you a question?

[34:55] PAUL BLYTHE: Go ahead, go ahead.

[34:56] LANCE CARRITHERS: I mean, I didn't want to interrupt your thought if you were waiting.

[35:02] PAUL BLYTHE: You know, this hasn't been an issue until this generation. I mean, kind of like not in the history of Jewish Christian thinking. And I realize, you know, I'm not one of those people, that this is a choice of that. I realize that there are people. This is a very big struggle and I struggle some with that. So. But I guess I'm really got to say I'm uncomfortable with that being a part of my faith, that we condone those things, which has historically not been a part of the church.

[36:04] LANCE CARRITHERS: Now you had a question out of your bio. You talked about how you have friends with all kinds of different values and beliefs and everything. And then in the church, though, you know, you wanted to go to a church that was more in line with the way you thought and believed. Is there a value for you in being a part of a church or a congregation where people all agree and where you actually learn and grow from listening to one another, even if you don't see eye to eye and say, well, yeah, I agree with you, but is there value in the same kinds of conversations you have in other areas of your life, in having those conversations in the context of a church or a congregation?

[37:12] PAUL BLYTHE: Well, I feel that where I'm at now and in the Nazarene church that I'm in, a lot of the people were not historically Nazarene, but I think that they would be a people that are comfortable with a more conservative religious or spiritual view. Well, they definitely would be or they wouldn't be there. It's just where I'm comfortable and, you know, both emotionally and spiritually, I guess I appreciate the struggles that people, you know, that deal with same sex urges have. I'm uncomfortable with condoning that with marriage and et cetera. I mean, yeah.

[38:31] LANCE CARRITHERS: You know, you asked me about the church and we kind of got off onto the United Methodist understanding of human sexuality. But in my congregation, there was probably more fallout when we tried to address racism than there was in addressing human sexuality.

[38:55] PAUL BLYTHE: Okay.

[38:57] LANCE CARRITHERS: Shortly after the George Floyd incident.

[39:00] PAUL BLYTHE: Oh, yeah.

[39:02] LANCE CARRITHERS: In our congregation, we took that as an opportunity to say, you know, the white church has a responsibility to start talking about this. This isn't an African American problem. This is a problem for America. And. And the church has a place to start talking about this. And we did a study on white privilege and just kind of historically how racism systemically has happened within the United States. We had people that became very offended by that, personally thinking that we were calling into question their character around whether they personally were racist or overtly racist in their actions or intentions. What we were trying to do was talk about how systemically, as a country, there are systems that have held people of different skin colors at a disadvantage and how to just recognize that and own that and say, yeah, that's something we have to be more aware of. That was a. That was a bigger powder keg.

[40:19] PAUL BLYTHE: That's interesting.

[40:20] LANCE CARRITHERS: Than homosexuality in our congregation. People got very offended and. Are you calling me a racist? Are you calling some of my best friends? You know, oh, yeah. When that argument comes up, then I just. I immediately kind of furrow my brows. But it was interesting. We had a much more difficult time talking about race and historically and systemically, how race has been a part of our history than we have talking about human sexuality in our congregation.

[41:04] PAUL BLYTHE: Three generations of my ancestors were slaveholders, owners. My father was born in 1889, and there were ex slaves still working for the family at that time. And I'm trying to think of his name now. Just say old Dan. My father talked about a lot. I think his father, in a way, was kind of a stern man. And this guy was an ex slave, and he was kind of the guy that would take my dad fishing, that sort of thing. And I can remember once as a kid looking out the window and there were some black people going by and there's some black clouds going, which was, you know, and he put a stop to that. And now, to carry that a little further, Acheson was a town that was about probably 20, 25% black. I mean, you know, I mean, it was next to Missouri, our church, and I was on the pulpit committee, and the Baptists, you know, they go choose their pastor. We got a pastor from Ness City, and one of the black churches was in pretty bad disrepair, and he made an effort to unite that church with our church. I mean, that exploded and I mean, it definitely didn't happen. But I also learned a lot from him, and we've been lifelong friends, and he and I were about the same age, and he's still living out in California, and we still communicate some.

[43:53] LANCE CARRITHERS: Well, back to the.

[43:54] PAUL BLYTHE: Yeah, go ahead.

[43:57] LANCE CARRITHERS: Back to the question of just the political divide in our country and the kind of just stranglehold that we seem to be in. What do you think would help our country move forward and change for the better?

[44:29] PAUL BLYTHE: Well, I don't know. Part of it is that there's got to be some civility in Washington. I would feel like maybe both parties need to move toward the center a little more. I'm a registered Republican, but I'm really disfranchised with them. I'm not a big government person. But it's got to be back to some civility in Washington, which just isn't happening now. And I do blame Trump a lot for Trump and the Trumpsters for that. It amazes me how much the Republican Houses got on board with that.

[45:36] LANCE CARRITHERS: Well, you know, I have to agree. It's just. It's like politics has become about getting and preserving power rather than anything that is designed for what really would benefit the common good for us as a country. I mean, there used to be compromise built around is there a common good? Is there something that we know would be beneficial for people, make our life better? But now it seems to be about, if the other party's for it, we're going to be against it. If the other party's against it, we're going to be for it. More as a way of just drawing the lines and keeping power. Yeah, there's very little confidence.

[46:24] PAUL BLYTHE: I'd agree with that.

[46:25] LANCE CARRITHERS: There's very little talk. You know, you say move to the middle, and I just question how that'll ever happen, because there's too much at risk to. Oh, but what if we lose a House seat? What if we lose a Senate seat? Because I was willing to vote for something that I thought would help people, but it is too much aligned with the other party.

[46:50] PAUL BLYTHE: Well, I suppose also with that, I'm concerned about, I'll say, the alliance between big Business and big government. Is there an experience that you've had or witnessed that brings you hope or makes you fearful for our country's future?

[47:24] LANCE CARRITHERS: Boy, I'd like to talk about hope.

[47:26] PAUL BLYTHE: Yeah.

[47:29] LANCE CARRITHERS: To be honest, I've seen very little signs of hope on the political horizon. And I see many things that make me anxious, afraid, concerned. You know, at the risk of just sounding like I'm parroting a political line, I am worried about our very democracy. I'm worried about our ability to function in a way that has peaceful transfer of power, that has the will of the people in elections, that is won out. Yeah. Those are the things that make me concerned. I wish I could say more. Makes me hope. But what about you? What are you concerned about? What are you hopeful?

[48:28] PAUL BLYTHE: Well, certainly I'm concerned about, I'll say, the influence between big business and big government. I'm concerned about the big emphasis on military. I'm concerned about the debt. I mean, and that's one of the things that I think we've just dug a deep hole and we just anymore, you know, the government spending seems to have no end.

[49:11] LANCE CARRITHERS: And as a farm boy, I'm also concerned about our planet, you know.

[49:16] PAUL BLYTHE: Yeah.

[49:18] LANCE CARRITHERS: Are we losing the ability to create some kind of a sustainable world that we can hand off to our grandchildren? And that worries me, too. So through your life and you've got more experience than I do, what's some of the most important lessons you think you've learned in life?

[49:50] PAUL BLYTHE: Wow.

[49:51] LANCE CARRITHERS: Or a important lesson, maybe in the time we have left.

[49:56] PAUL BLYTHE: Okay. Going back to my dad, that human beings are human beings and human beings have value. And it kind of amazes me where he grew up in a family where there were slaves and ex slaves, that he was such a strong person for the equality of people. One of the things that I thought about pushing our church to do is have some dialogue with like the AME Church and maybe some experiences together, because I think the people in my church need that. But human dignity, I think, is one of the things that.

[51:10] LANCE CARRITHERS: That really resonates with me. And that's why I think looking for things that benefit the common good are so important to me. It is that sense of all persons are of worth, sacred worth. And one class or one race or one group of people should not have more benefit than another group. And while I see that played out, you know, individually, I see it played out also on a larger scale. And so when politics serves the interests of a few, and you yourself said, you know, the big business alignment with big politics, when it serves the interests of a few. I find that repulsive. And how can it serve the benefit of all?

[52:13] PAUL BLYTHE: Yeah.

[52:14] LANCE CARRITHERS: And that's. I really resonate with what you said about, you know, human dignity, human worth. The most important lesson you've learned.

[52:24] PAUL BLYTHE: Just we're getting close here. One of the things I didn't mention, I've done mission construction work in Haiti and that was an eye opening experience. It was one of those things. When we left, we talked about all the things we were going to do for them. When we came back, we talked about all the things they did for us.

[52:50] LANCE CARRITHERS: I too have done work in Tanzania, in Africa. Those are life changing experiences. You come back and realize what you learn about the abundance that they have. Even in their poverty, there's an abundance and they know how to share that and live within that. That it isn't always about material. The things that we in the Western world think are material needs. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I've enjoyed very much our conversation, Paul.

[53:29] PAUL BLYTHE: I have two Lance and I'd probably like to continue it.

[53:34] LANCE CARRITHERS: Yeah, I would as well. I would as well.