Lara Capuano and Naima Tillett

[00:02] NAIMA TILLETT: My name is Naima Tillett I am 28 years old. Today's date is July 6, 2021. I am at home in Harlem, New York. My conversation partner is Ms. Lara Caplano. And our relationship is we are sisters or adoptive parents, slash birth parents.

[00:37] LARA CAPUANO: Yeah. And my name is Lara Capuano I am 40 years old. It's Tuesday, July 6, 2021. I'm here in Rochester, New York, and I'm here with Naima Yeah, we have an open adoption together. We sort of co parent the same child in our own ways. So, Naima it's funny because when we have to mark down what our relationship is, there's no real box to check, though. I feel like it is. It is weird. I feel like we're sisters. I feel like in some ways I think of you as a daughter. In some ways I think of you as. Yeah, co parent. In some ways I think of you as. I don't know, like, I like to think of myself as a cool aunt.

[01:41] NAIMA TILLETT: All of those things.

[01:43] LARA CAPUANO: Yes, all of those. So how would you describe. How would you describe our relationship to people?

[01:49] NAIMA TILLETT: Exactly what you just said. I was literally thinking this morning, like, should we start calling you Aunt Lara or. Yeah, I was literally thinking, like, it's all of those things in one. It's so weird and just amazing and. Yeah, yeah.

[02:09] LARA CAPUANO: It's hard for people to understand. What. So how would you like. When I think about how we first met, of course, I think of the first phone call where. So I was in Oregon. I don't know if I ever told you this, but I was in Portland, Oregon, visiting a friend, and I got a call from the social worker saying that there was an expectant moment who was considering making an adoption plan and that she was interested in having a phone conversation. And we first spoke on the phone January 15, which is why I always send you a phone number for a text, because that's when we first met. But I want to know on your end, what was that like for you, that first phone conversation or the process leading up to that call? Oh, wow. Yeah.

[03:10] NAIMA TILLETT: I don't think we've ever, like, talked about this. Well, of course, the whole process leading up to it was like, terrible and emotional and, like, craziness. But initially when I, like, really finalized and not really got comfortable, but, like, kind of was settled on the idea that, you know, I was going to place him for adoption. I forgot what I was saying.

[03:44] LARA CAPUANO: Sorry.

[03:45] NAIMA TILLETT: Yeah, so when I kind of finally settled on the idea, I was. I wanted to have him placed with Like, African American family. I never. I don't know, it was just something like in my. I never. I always. Well, not always because it was only like a few days. But during that time, I was always. It was always in my mind, you know, he would be with an African American family. But when I went to the agency and I started looking through the, like. Yeah. The profiles and you guys, I. I saw you guys scrapbook, and I was like. I don't know, it's just like something just clicked. It was like this. This. That's it. Like you guys are. And that first conversation, it was. I feel like I remember being like, on the shorter side, but I genuinely know, like, in my heart, in my mind, that God put that together because it was just like. It was so, like, in my head, it was like, so smooth and it was just like, perfect. And like everything that I wanted to happen and all, I guess the vibe.

[05:10] LARA CAPUANO: That I got.

[05:13] NAIMA TILLETT: It was just perfect. It lined. Everything lined up perfectly. And it was. It just.

[05:20] LARA CAPUANO: Yeah, yeah, we felt that too. I know. Like, it felt like love at first listen. I know that.

[05:28] NAIMA TILLETT: Yeah.

[05:30] LARA CAPUANO: But the second I heard your voice, it was like. It felt like this. A really special connection from the very beginning. And I don't know how to describe that to people, but it felt immediately like we were going to be family.

[05:49] NAIMA TILLETT: Yeah.

[05:51] LARA CAPUANO: And I. You know, it's funny because when people think about adoption, they don't think about the relationship between the first parents and the adoptive parents. And oftentimes it's because there isn't one. And so I think from the beginning, it felt to me like it was going to be special. So much so, like, I just. From the get go, I was rooting for you. Like, before anything with Jay, I just really loved you and I wanted what was best for you to the point that I was like, there was. I was rooting for you to parent because I really believe. I knew you could. I knew you were going to be mom. And of course, now I get to see you with your three other kids and I see what an awesome mom you are. And I knew that is who you are. I knew that's who you would be. And so there was a. I had this tension of, like, I didn't want to pressure you to place him for adoption. And I also didn't want to pressure you to parent when you didn't feel like you were ready or it wasn't the right circumstances. So I was, like, trying so hard to encourage you just to do what you felt you needed to do while Also letting, like, rooting for you and letting you know that I think you could do it. And I am so curious how that came through, because I remember, like, trying so hard and not knowing what was the right thing to say. So I want to know from your side how that whole process was when we, like, came to the hospital and met you for the first time in person and met Jay, and just what you were thinking through that whole process. I mean, I know there's a million.

[07:43] NAIMA TILLETT: Things, but, yeah, there was so much going on at that point, like, around that time of me being in the hospital, like, apart from the whole adoption process. So that time for me is kind of like a blur. I think I subconsciously have, like, kind of pushed things out of my mind. But I do remember for our particular situation, I was. I felt at peace. I remember one day, you and I were sitting in the hospital room, and I just started crying. I think I was holding J. And I just started crying. I don't know, because there was so much going on. And in my mind, I'm like, I know this is just, like, this is it. Like, this is it. You guys are the perfect family. It's hard for me, but I know I'm making the right choice for him. And, yeah, it was just a lot of mixed emotions, but I never, like, at that time at all, I never even doubted that I was, you know, not making the right choice.

[09:09] LARA CAPUANO: What. When you think about the time in the hospital and maybe the days either leading up to. Or, like, right afterwards, what is the most prominent memory? I know you said it's a little bit of a blur, but what's the thing that stands out to you the most? Is it that time that we were together, just you and I?

[09:28] NAIMA TILLETT: It's definitely. Definitely that moment. Because it was just. I don't even know how to. How do you. How do you even put that into words? It was just like a mutual. Like, you knew what was going on in my head, kind of. And, like, I was, like, kind of feeling for you guys, like, excitement a little bit. And then, you know, it was just a mutual thing we had going on. And I just remember both of us, we just sat there and cried, and it was just. We didn't even say a word. I don't even think we said anything.

[09:59] LARA CAPUANO: Yeah, I think that. I think that's part of this, like, sort of this nebulous, weird, magical thing we have.

[10:11] NAIMA TILLETT: Yeah.

[10:12] LARA CAPUANO: That we've been able to enter into each other's perspective so much. Like, even the fact that you're Sitting there holding your son, and you're. You're experiencing some amount of excitement for us and all.

[10:27] NAIMA TILLETT: Yeah.

[10:28] LARA CAPUANO: Thinking was I was experiencing total grief for you and for him, you know, and so it's. I think we've been able to carry the weight of each other's experience and with a lot of, like, empathy. And I think that's what's made this relationship so special.

[10:46] NAIMA TILLETT: Yeah.

[10:49] LARA CAPUANO: For me, the moment that stands out was at the point that Jay, you know, they had given him basically, two weeks of antibiotics after, like, the meningitis situation. And it caused a lot of damage. Like, cause took us, like, caused the hearing loss and caused some delays and some different things. And so he was getting sicker kind of by the minute, even though he was born perfectly healthy. But then he was sort of, like, struggling. And so they had to transfer him by ambulance to the NICU or the PICU at a different hospital. And we all went down together, you and me and Jay and the emt, and they had him in the little incubator, and we took the elevator down to the basement, and they loaded him up into the ambulance. I always get emotional at this park. And the EMT came out, and she looked at us, and she said, okay, we have room for one parent to go. And you and I looked at each other, and it was just this moment of, like, kind of, like, handing over the baton. And I remember saying, like, do you want to go? Like, it's okay. You can go. Like, I wanted you to feel free to do whatever you needed to do if that was go with him or if you were ready to, like, go home. I just wanted you to feel free to do whatever it was that you wanted. And we kind of had this moment where you looked at me, and you were like, you're up, Mom. Like, it's time. And I just remember, like, getting in the ambulance and just sobbing. Cause I wanted you to come, and I wanted you to be okay, and I wanted him to be okay. And I just. That's the moment that stood out to me of this kind of moment where you sort of gave me the honor and the permission to parent him. And I remember really wanting you to do it with me. I wanted to do it together, which I think we really have been able to figure out how to do.

[13:07] NAIMA TILLETT: Yeah. Yeah. And it's so. I was. I have no memory of that.

[13:16] LARA CAPUANO: Oh, you don't?

[13:19] NAIMA TILLETT: I have.

[13:19] LARA CAPUANO: Yeah. You looked over and you said, you're up, Mama.

[13:24] NAIMA TILLETT: Oh, my God.

[13:26] LARA CAPUANO: And I started crying. You started crying? The EMT started crying.

[13:31] NAIMA TILLETT: It was like.

[13:32] LARA CAPUANO: It was the worst. And it was, like, really sad, really beautiful, really heartbreaking and really complex and traumatic, I think, for you enough that you probably don't remember. Obviously you don't even remember it. And I think, like, that when people ask, like, what is adoption like? I think that to me is the best picture because it so traumatizing and so, like, filled with grief and also a lot of, like, grace and beauty, but so much pain. It's just really layered and complicated.

[14:16] NAIMA TILLETT: Wow. That's amazing. I feel like there's. I would have, like, never even thought about, you know, something like that. There's so, like I said, there's so many things that I just, like, kind of pushed out of my mind about that time, especially the very beginning.

[14:38] LARA CAPUANO: Yeah.

[14:39] NAIMA TILLETT: But that I think. Thank you so much. I. That's beautiful. I love that.

[14:47] LARA CAPUANO: Yeah. I had no idea that you didn't remember that.

[14:51] NAIMA TILLETT: Yeah.

[14:53] LARA CAPUANO: That was like. Yeah. It was just a really powerful.

[15:00] NAIMA TILLETT: Yeah.

[15:02] LARA CAPUANO: And heartbreaking.

[15:04] NAIMA TILLETT: Yeah. Yeah. Wow.

[15:08] LARA CAPUANO: That's. Yeah. When we first discussed. When we first went into the adoption, like, I remember social workers, it felt to me like they wanted. Everybody wanted things to be really formal, like, the communication should happen through lawyers and through the social workers, and we should make a contract of what our expectations are. And I remember feeling like, no, like, what if we're just going to be family and we're just going to talk like people and decide what's going to be best for, like, what if. What if she just tells us what she wants and we respect that? And so what did. What did you expect it to look like going into it? And then how has that been different or the same?

[16:01] NAIMA TILLETT: I know for a fact I wanted. I wanted to be a part of his life in whatever way, you know, that was. I didn't know, like, specifics. Of course, I never really sat down and thought about, well, this is, you know, how I want things to go. Like, this is a plan that, you know, I want to kind of put in place. But I knew for sure that I. Whatever way like, you guys would allow me, I wanted to be there. I never in a million years would have imagined that it would turn out the way it has. Like I told you, like, a few times, like, you guys are closer to me than, like, my actual own blood, like family is. And it's. Yeah, it's so. I don't know. It's just so weird to me. But, yeah, that's. It's. It's nothing. Like, I could have, like, this wouldn't have even Been something like I imagined, but I know it's. For me, anyway, it's exactly like what I needed to be able to heal and cope and just, you know, not go, like, on a completely different journey.

[17:36] LARA CAPUANO: Yeah.

[17:38] NAIMA TILLETT: Then I have been on since then.

[17:42] LARA CAPUANO: Yeah.

[17:47] NAIMA TILLETT: But what about you guys? I know you. You did tell me during, like, right before then, you guys, there was another adoption possibly, but that didn't, like, pan out.

[18:01] LARA CAPUANO: Yeah.

[18:02] NAIMA TILLETT: Were you guys, like, going through around that time, you know, for.

[18:09] LARA CAPUANO: So as you know, we have. We had. At the time, we had four kids already. We had three biological kids. We had our older son who was also adopted. And so we were like. Our hands were full. So it wasn't like we were just sitting around and pining away about. Of course, that situation was difficult when that placement, you know, that potential adoption fell through, but that child was able to stay with, like, a family member. So we were. It was like, we were. It was hard because we had to, like, drive home from the hospital with an empty car seat and the kids, you know, were very confused and. But the whole time we called, we said, you know, this is a maybe baby is what we called that situation. Because we really. We do want to. We want what's best for children, which if that's possible for them to stay with family, then we do think that's best. And even to your point about wanting a black family for Jay originally, like, we share that same. We share that same value. We also think that would have been great if that had been possible. Fortunately, you know, both of the boys are black, and so it's not. Neither of them are the only anything. They're not the only boy. They're not the only adopted child. They're not the only black child in the family. Actually, it was just funny because someone the other day said. Asked Harper what it's like to live in a white home, and he's like, we don't have a white home. He's like, some of us are black and some of us are white. It was kind of funny and like, yeah, true. Like, that is. I'm glad that's how he felt. But. But, yeah, so we were. We had our hands full. So when we got this call, we were, like, excited, but also, again, just pulling for you and rooting for you. And I remember thinking, like, I will love this woman and I will be there for her, and if she wants me there and decides to parent, I will walk through this with her, like, because I love her. Like, it. I. It's almost. I almost feel bad Saying that for Jay, because for me, it was about you until you. Until the ambulance ride. And then it was about both of you. Because to me, I was like, I was there for you until you told me to be there for him. And that is just really how I felt. And. And then it was about both of you. And so the process leading up to it was, you know, really, we were. We were just kind of not sure what was going to happen. And we were open to whatever you wanted, but. And then after that, I really wanted us to talk like family about what we wanted, because I was willing to do whatever you wanted, and I didn't want the fear of the unknown. I think fear rules a lot of adoptive parents. They're afraid of, well, what if they're not? What if they're not a good influence? What if they decide. What if they change their mind? What if they decide they want to be, I don't know, more involved and more comfortable with or whatever? And to me, it just feels so controlling and fear based. And on my end, I just wanted. I wanted to do what was going to be best. I viewed my role as facilitating whatever relationship was best for the two of you, and I was willing to do whatever it took. Like, we wanted. We just wanted you to be as involved as you wanted to be. And so we thought if we cut. If we. If we do lawyers and social workers, like, brokering some deal, it'll feel so sterile and impersonal, and that's not going to lead to us being like, family and being close. So we just went rogue and did whatever we wanted.

[22:32] NAIMA TILLETT: That's great. That's actually what that happens, literally.

[22:38] LARA CAPUANO: I know. Here's all of our advice, and we were like, here's what we're gonna do, though that actually might be illegal. And we're like, let us decide. We decide the law. Yeah. So that was a little bit of our process leading up to it. And really just wanting it was. We just wanted what was best for you and for your future family and for him. And I really believed that it would be okay if we just weren't. If we chose not to be afraid. We chose love over fear. And I think when I think about parents being so afraid and so controlling and then removing or like, blocking birth parents from the child's life, I just think, like, how everybody really suffers from that. And I can't imagine preventing anybody else in our life who loves our kids. I can't imagine removing them from their life because we felt threatened. Yeah, I just can't imagine doing that so to me, it makes so much more sense to be open. And I think he feels a sense of security in his identity that he would otherwise not feel if you guys weren't in his life.

[24:23] NAIMA TILLETT: Yeah, I'm, I'm. I feel the same. I think it. It has worked out like, just perfectly. I honestly couldn't. I. I've been watching this is Us. Have you seen that show?

[24:39] LARA CAPUANO: Oh, yes. Okay.

[24:42] NAIMA TILLETT: I recently, I've been binging binge watching it.

[24:46] LARA CAPUANO: Is that one for you?

[24:50] NAIMA TILLETT: Honestly, it. It isn't. There are. I feel like right now, like I'm in such a place of just like comfort and peace, like with our situation and with everything, you know, that happened. It's just like, like, it kind of like there are some moments where it's like a little bit emotional.

[25:09] LARA CAPUANO: Sure.

[25:10] NAIMA TILLETT: You know, connecting to certain situations. Yeah. But it's, it's not like, you know, anything like, crazy happening, but just the idea of like, how Randall had no idea, like, about his birth mom until he's like, what they were like 40 years old, just. I, like, I cannot, I could not ever imagine or think of that for Jay. Like, I couldn't. I don't know. I don't even know how to explain that. But that's not something like I would want to put him through. That's why for me, it was so important to just be there, like at any, in any capacity at all that I could be because of the way that I grew up, especially, like not really having any type of relationship with either one of my parents. So, yeah, that was just like really important for me. But I have a question for you.

[26:23] LARA CAPUANO: Okay.

[26:24] NAIMA TILLETT: Kind of like switching gears a little bit.

[26:27] LARA CAPUANO: Sure.

[26:28] NAIMA TILLETT: I was looking at the list here, and one of the main reasons I, like, I really was focused on you guys is because I could feel like that you guys were like a beautiful, loving, happy family, like through your picture profile and everything. So I want to know for you, like, growing up and then like once you and Tom started you, your family, what was like a typical dinner for you guys? Like, how.

[27:01] LARA CAPUANO: How did that look when, like before Jay or with Jay or do you mean.

[27:08] NAIMA TILLETT: Well, you personally, like, growing up as a kid and then like before Jay.

[27:15] LARA CAPUANO: Okay. Okay. So when I was growing up, you know, there was two. There were sort of two lives, you know, like I. There was it. So before, when I was younger, my mom was a stay at home mom and she was sort of like a Suzy homemaker, like the typical. Made everything from scratch, big family. She was kind of like, you know, Just like super engaged in carting us to all of our things. But then there was all in one year, my parents got divorced and my brother was murdered, as you know. And so there was that. That was kind of like there was a before and there was an after. So after the divorce and after Adam was killed, my mom had. You know, she was a single mom now. She had to go to work. And so it looked totally different. So there was like sort of this. What maybe appeared on the surface as this idyllic kind of childhood with a lot of kind of dysfunction under the. Under the surface. And then afterwards, the dysfunction was very much at the above the surface and was visible. So life for us looked more like a typical single mom situation where we were like fast food and. Or making food at home, like, waiting for my mom to get home and running around from sport to sport. And she was. She was a tough lady and she did her best and she did a lot for us. And. But yeah, it. It wasn't like both situations. Neither of them felt so super stable as a kid because the first. The first version was not actually stable, and then the second version was very obviously unstable just because there was so much trauma. And so I guess, you know, once we. Once I was a mom and married and had kids, I guess I wanted that to look different. And so, yeah, we were. Dinners around the table were. Have been very consistent, especially while they were all little every night around the table together, they. Yeah, they all, like, helped out with their little. They all had their little jobs clearing their dishes and, you know, helping with different things even when they were little. And then when Jay joined the family, dinner got much louder, as you can imagine, and much messier. There was a lot of food covered. Like his hearing aids would be covered in tuna fish or something so gross. Or he would eat chewing on his hearing aid, which was really gross as well. But yeah, so, I mean, I know that your childhood and my childhood are very different, but I think we both had a lot of trauma and instability in different ways. And so I think you could probably relate. I see you parent very. I mean, so you're such a great mom, and I see you so engaged and so gentle with your kids and so sensitive of their boundaries, and you really protect their boundaries in, like, a really a beautiful way. And so I'm. I guess my question for you is the same thing is like, how do you feel like your upbringing affected who you are now?

[31:20] NAIMA TILLETT: Oh, well, definitely I wanted to have the opposite of what I grew up with from not having my Parents being adopted, I guess, technically by my grandfather on my father's side, that was completely abusive. Powerful in every way you can think of. And, like, I was thinking about this the other day. Like, there was literally a time where there was, like, four or, like, five months where, like, no one spoke, like, in the household. Like, I don't know if you can imagine. Like, there was four of us.

[32:24] LARA CAPUANO: Wow.

[32:25] NAIMA TILLETT: Two teenagers. My grandfather and his wife. No one. Like, the person that's supposed to be taking care of me and, you know, making sure that I'm okay as a human being and just, you know, providing the necessities that I need to survive is not speaking to me at, like, at all. Like, not even a good morning or a hello. Like, and that happened for, like, months. It was such a toxic environment. So I wanted, like, the complete opposite of that. So I try. Even now, I'm still learning. I'm still, like, trying different things to just make sure that Jaleah and Jeremiah have, like, to make sure that they don't have any type of experiences that I had. I want them to feel comfortable. I want them to be able to speak to me about any and everything. I don't want them to, you know, have any type of. I don't want them to feel like they have to hold anything back. Yeah, so I try. I recently started reading about conscious parenting and just kind of, like, doing different things and trying different things. And I honestly, I told you this before. I learned so much from you, just watching how you are. You and Tom, actually, how you guys are with the kids. So, yeah, I just. I try really hard to. The things that I kind of needed when I was younger, and I try and try to start early so that, you know, they. I don't want them to have to, like, heal from any trauma. I don't want to be the reason that, you know, they have to go to therapy for years.

[34:30] LARA CAPUANO: Yeah, Yeah, I see that, though. I see. When you say conscious parenting, I see that. I see how intentional it is. I see that you're not resisting who they are.

[34:45] NAIMA TILLETT: Yeah, that's. That's a really big one.

[34:48] LARA CAPUANO: Yep, it is. And that's so much of parenting for a lot of people is trying to force their kid into this expectation, right into this. Try to force them into a reality that isn't natural for their child. And I really see you seeing the kids as they are accepting them, and not only just accepting them, but, like, facilitating that and fostering that and encouraging it. And I think that is. That's not easy to do, especially when you're trying to heal your own trauma. But you're doing a really good job. And I just want you to know that I love you so much. I'm incredibly proud of you and proud to know you. I'm so thankful I get to do life with you. And, you know, you mentioned this is us and Randall, and I'm glad that that show. The show is super well done. And I think they've consulted with the right adult adoptees and birth parents and people who can speak into what it's actually like. They really have captured the experience of the adoptee, I think, really well. Yeah, I know it's different for everyone. It's not like monolithic experience, but I think they've done a good job. And what I love about it is I love that you get to see. See the pain that you have spared Jay from by being willing to be in his life and being willing to be in our life and to let us love you and get to know you and be a part of your. Your family's life and be a part of ours. It's a gift.

[36:41] NAIMA TILLETT: Yeah. I'm. God, I'm so, like, grateful to you guys just for, like, who you are. Like, it's really. It's really a blessing that we have. We were able to do things the way we do them.

[37:01] LARA CAPUANO: Yeah.

[37:02] NAIMA TILLETT: And just the type of relationship that we have.

[37:08] LARA CAPUANO: All right, I have one last question for you.

[37:11] NAIMA TILLETT: Okay.

[37:11] LARA CAPUANO: So we're not black. Surprise. I know that was a concern for you initially, and that's totally fair. I wonder, what do you think about that now? Have you. Has that been a concern? Has that been a regret? Especially through this last couple of years as racial tensions have only come more to the forefront in America? What. What are your thoughts on that of J. Being in a multiracial family instead of an all black family?

[37:50] NAIMA TILLETT: I am not. I don't have, like, any concerns about it or regrets about it. I know that there are, like, certain experiences that, you know, he won't necessarily have, but I feel like you are, like, a complete ally and, like, activist, and you do so much. And I know that you. You teach the kids. You guys are, you know, you're out protesting and marching with the kids, and they know, you know, about racial inequality and injustice and all of these things. And I know that he learns.

[38:41] LARA CAPUANO: The.

[38:41] NAIMA TILLETT: Truth from you about things, and there are certain things that he gets from you from a different perspective that something wouldn't be able to, like, truly get or, I guess, understand if he was with an African American family. So it's like kind of a different. It's different, but I have no. I have no regrets or concerns about that whatsoever, because I know he. You know, like, he. He's learning, and he knows, and he will know as he gets older. And I know that you guys protect him, and, you know, you do things. Sorry. You do things. You know, I don't want to be, like, the correct way, but you know what I mean?

[39:50] LARA CAPUANO: Yeah, yeah. Trying. We're trying, at least. Yeah.

[39:54] NAIMA TILLETT: And that comes across very clearly. So. Yeah, I have no worries for him. Not from you guys. And I know he'll be prepared for life.

[40:13] LARA CAPUANO: Yeah. I think having you guys in his life, too, and having a diverse friend group around him, I think helps a lot with his racial identity in him. He will have questions and he'll have experiences, and he'll have. There are things that we can't teach him. And so I think it's. It's just another reason why it's so important that you. You guys are in his life to help with that, the formation of that. The racial identity piece and the cultural piece. And just having you guys in his life is going to be crucial as he figures out what it means to be black in America.

[40:51] NAIMA TILLETT: Yeah.

[40:54] LARA CAPUANO: All right, well, thank. Thank you so much for talking to me and for doing this with me. I love you, and I appreciate you so much.

[41:02] NAIMA TILLETT: I love you, too. I love that you even had this idea. This is great. I'm so excited for the.

[41:08] LARA CAPUANO: Me, too. All right, I love you. I'll talk to you later.

[41:13] NAIMA TILLETT: Okay, bye.