Latif Wali and Mozhipo Zypo Moyo

00:00 I'm Nozipho Moyo I am 33 years old, and I come from Zimbabwe.

00:08 Latif Wali. I'm 28. I come from Togo.

00:12 All right, so we are here at Monticello talking about democracy, and you know what it means to talk across difference and get to know each other. So you're both here as part of a special program. So I want to know, what is it that you do at home and what made you want to come to Charlottesville, to Uva, to be a part of this program? Okay, so we are part of the Young African Leaders Initiative, the Mandela Washington, which every year, the US State Department funds emerging young leaders into three civic. Into three tracks. That is the civic leadership, the business track, and public management. Specifically, we're under the civic leadership track, and we're under the presidential precede, which is the home of, which is the heart of democracy and governance, because we're aligned to democracy initiatives in our home country.

01:09 Yeah, I'm here for the same program, too. So we're here normally for six weeks of programs. So we were in Williamsburg, then came to Charlottesville finally. So we have some weeks, I mean, to finish. And it's very great being Monticello because, you know, it's part of what we're doing, because this experience is going to be something really complementary to what we've been doing before.

01:37 Yeah. Just out of curiosity, were you at the global research initiative in Williamsburg?

01:42 Is that where you were? Yeah, part of it. We were with them. We even had a couple of weeks of program with them. I remember.

01:51 So, yeah, I used to. I went to college at William and Mary, and so I was part of that institute before I came here. So I remember. I think I interact with some students or with some people who are part of the youth leadership initiative about five, six years ago. That's incredible. So I want to ask, you know, we don't. We don't. This is not a traditional setting that we do the interviews in, so we don't have bios. So instead of that, I want to ask if you can share, you know, for a minute, some of the background of where you come from, and, like, the most important events that have happened to you in your life that have led you to where you are now.

02:29 I think, you know, as I told them from Togo, and majorly, what happens is the background, for example, is completely different compared to the US. Yes, we are in democracy also in Togo, but we have a different kind of democracy back there. So. And some of us, as citizens, are here just because we are trying to fight hard in order to change a lot of things, not only on the political sphere, but more into the developmental sphere, the economic aspect too. And I think our participation to all that is to bring change not only to Togo, Africa, but beyond, because we need also to have a kind of unipolar world in which, like, we are under a common system where freedom of exchange, where there is this freedom of liberty, we have this pursuit of happiness and all those. So I think it's really important we being here. The same thing America went through in order to build what America is today is what also we are doing back home in order to build our countries. And I think Nozipho also is doing the same thing in Zimbabwe. We have a lot of people coming from Ethiopia and all coming from Togo and all of us together. When we do all that and succeed in what all of us are doing, I think we're going to have a better africa and a better world.

03:52 So what about you personally? What has happened in your own life that made you want to do this work?

03:57 Yeah, personally, I think, you know, I believe in democracy, I believe in freedom of speech, I believe in this freedom for you to do whatever. Respect of minority, mutual respect and understanding, tolerance inside me, I think if every kind of person has the same rights, I think it can be something really great. So that is why I think it's a kind of happiness, like me doing all that, like participating into, I mean, let's say, contributing to people's happiness for them also to have the same ideas, to be the same, like the way Americans are today. And I think it's a kind of happiness to me doing that. And me coming here is a kind of to top up to what I know already and try to domesticate it and make that a reality. Backup.

04:52 Getting the question so what are the most important things that have happened to you in your life that have brought you here? I'll speak from when I was an adolescent, when I have the first memory of 1999, when we had, that is the time when our government moved to 100% local. And that was the time when the first opposition party actually came in because it was literally more for one state's nation. More importantly, our former president, the late president Robert Mugabe, delivered one of his biggest speeches in the UN where he said, Tony Blair, you keep your England and I keep my Zimbabwe because there's never been an african person claiming land in the UK. And that is when all the chaos started. I remember helicopters falling down with ballots and so forth. There was, I would call it land reform more than land invasions. And when all those things were happening, I grew up to detest some of the things happening in my country. I've been included in protest. I've been arrested in protest. I was the first person to actually put a position paper and petition querying the age to run for presidency, where our constitution states you need to be 40 years and above, meaning asean people are the ones who do the groundwork, the dirty work in political parties. But we never get to be in the decision making. So the frustrations of being used as a weapon to push an agenda, more than me having a decision making muscle is what motivated me to push into issues of democracy. So what am I? So those are the memories that actually come the arrests. And the last fresh memory I have is November 2017, when the citizens marched with the military. And that was when we wanted Robert Mugabe out of the throne, which was one of the major mistakes that we made, because that was the push to a militarization state under democracy. So I'm going to ask you now to ask each other some questions that are on this sheet of. Because what we typically do is we have people ask questions to try and get to know each other better. So if you want to start by asking each other the third question, and then you can kind of jump around as you see fit. And of course, you can ask other things that come to mind. Along those lines. Yep. Okay, so we start from question one. Question three. I'll start with you, Wali who has been the most influential person in her life. What did they teach you?

07:28 The most influential person in my life is my dad. Because I think this is a guy who believed in kind of unity among people. And also, I'm one of the people that don't believe in political success. So he's the one who brought me and made me understand the reality of, like, sometimes believing in other people, trusting other people, and, like, being inclusive and trying to be, like, trusting them, whatever the case, even though there are differences, whether race or traditional ethnicity. And it brought me to this idea. He's the one who inspired me for me to do even political science at university. And the idea behind that is to change the world as the other people are doing that. But finally, I didn't have this opportunity to do that. So I did literature, but still, me doing literature is venturing through english literature and George Orwell. So still I'm still in politics and all. He inspired me a lot. And today I am where I am because of him. And he's still alive and still pushing me through. He's a very big, influential guy to me.

08:46 Okay. For me, it's also my father. My father is that person who I used to think is more sexist, someone who would. He has a lot of patriarchy indulged in him. But funny enough, being one of his daughters, he's actually the person who would push me and say, continue. And you'd always guide me to always say, watch your step when you get into politics. You know, like, you know, in our country, people from liberation, people will be killed, abductions. So that's the person who would always motivate me and have my back. And as he gives me caution.

09:26 Tommy, is there something about my beliefs that you don't agree with but still respect six?

09:33 Well, no, it's six. Oh, we skip that. Okay. Oh. I won't say it's an issue of belief, but I feel you. Like many other young male Africans, the issue of patriarchy is still heavily indulged. And that can actually be seen even in our dialoguing class, because it has always been the voice of the males. And I've noticed Johan, and interestingly, always feel you have to be the last person who has to speak like Samari, like the chief has said. So I won't really say, but that's you being an african woman. I know that about you. Yes. So I'll ask that right back at you.

10:24 Oh, no. Okay. I think, personally, I think you are a kind of person I admire a lot, because you are part of a minority group that you understand what I mean. Like, back in Africa, these people are really marginalized, oppressed and all. And this is my first time, seriously, my first time meeting that kind of person that openly stands and speaks their mind without hesitation, without fear, ready to occupied political sits back home thinking of ruling the African Union. Back home with your standards. And this is high for me, and this is really, uh, not a shock. Not a shock. Um, it's. For me, it's, um. Like, it's a kind of. I'm really moved. Really moved. Like, I really appreciated that. I like that. And it tried to convert me into that, because in my country, for example, we don't have that. So it converted me to be like, okay, so I need also to open my arms to these people. These are people also that feel like. I feel that also go through emotional. This was like, I do, too. So it means I need also to understand these people and open.

11:55 So, for me, being an African, I don't think we're ready as Africans to legalise same sex marriages in as much as I'm gay, because I understand the context. But we need to break the stereotypes where people, when they look at the LGBTI, they only see sex perverts. So I'm happy that you're seeing that our lives have intersectionalities, that the same wars, the same struggles we all experience. So, outside being sex perverts, it's time people notice that we're also responsible citizens who are here to build better nations and better communities. I just feel it's an issue of respect, tolerance. I don't need to tell anyone to adopt or to value LGBTi, but respect and tolerance is all we need.

12:43 And I think about what you said about me. I think at least you know me, that I'm a debater, right? I'm a debate coach, so, you know. You know, debaters always like rebuttal, so they like.

12:56 Interestingly, I'm a debater as well.

12:57 Good.

12:58 But the difference between me and the Felix, as I said, your patriarchal endorsement and entitlements makes you be outspoken.

13:07 Yeah. Yeah. About Felix.

13:09 You, too.

13:10 Me.

13:10 But I'm saying, because I'm african, I understand the context. I understand it. So I've learned to like when, like, people. Like, I'm sure you heard about the comment that Felix would put, and people get offended, and I would feel probably we're thinking outside context. People should understand the context where we are, and we try to find mitigating ways to say, where do we get there? It's not about shaming and blaming and denouncing each other. Yes. Next question.

13:41 Okay. Is there anything you learned about me today that surprised you?

13:45 No. No. I think I know you very well, but can I. Can I ask a question? Yeah. So you've been here for almost three months now. No, no, no. A month. Almost a month.

13:58 More than a month?

14:00 Yeah.

14:01 You don't know.

14:02 Well, even still, I was gonna say, in the past week or two, there's been a lot of big political events happening in America. Yeah.

14:08 Yeah.

14:09 And I'm curious if you could share your perspective on being in this country and. And observing the political activities and. And how you feel it. Like, what does that make you feel?

14:21 Sorry. I'm going to touch these. You know, it's a bit sensitive, but I need to talk about that. This Roe v. Wade thing. I think, you know, I. I know America about freedom of choice. I mean. I mean, I. Human rights and all. And America inspires not only America, but the whole world about that. These values. Right. And as far as democracy is concerned, I think all majority of democratic countries take America as an example. So especially this recently, the decision in the Supreme Court really surprised me, because we are fighting hard back home in Africa in order to change a lot of things, so that human rights, we should still have improvement into the human rights domain. And what I'm trying to see right now is, like, America went completely, like, thousand steps backward, like, completely with the decision regarding Roe v. Wade. Sorry for me to say that. I know that a lot of people might be seeing it completely different, but my point is this. America should still, at least still recognize people's rights and whatever they want to do with their own body and whatever we still need that. It's really important, because this kind of decision is going to lead our countries back home, our presidents that were marginalizing the minorities, to still do that. So this is really, for me, it was a kind of shock.

16:02 I'll speak as someone who works with sexual reproductive health and rights mainly. So interestingly, is that when it comes to USAID funding, already when the Trump government came, we're having issues with the keg rule, where when you have a funder, take, for instance, Netherlands, who are pro, and then we cannot sign a contract with them, then you need another fiscal host. These are the struggles that Africans face, where we need to find ways in getting access to american funds and values. But for me, democracy is what people say. I think this is an awakening moment where we need to see. For me, it's a drama unfolding, because basically the court has taken the decision. They say the decision has to go back to the people, to the state, assumingly it's a free and fair environment. It would be interesting to see, do people who are american citizens, through their states and voting, actually affirm to the human rights notion when it comes to abortion rights? So the principle of taking it back, I think that is democratic. But it would be interesting to see that pillar, because there's a difference between something that is on paper and something that is an attitude and a belief for people. And for me, that is when we measure the sincerity of citizens of America and their belief systems more than what their constitution preaches and makes the world to believe. So I know you guys have to head out in a couple of minutes, so I want to end on this last question, which is, in your interactions with people here, what has been most surprising and what has kind of affirmed some of your thoughts about Americans or american culture? For me, the most surprising is the disparity that is still embedded in America when it comes to racial discrimination. Racial discrimination is still portrayed in systems of governance. You think America is a God. But my aha. Moment was to say, America is still going through its journey. When I went to Williamsburg, we had the opportunity to meet the councillors, the chief of staff, and all. When it comes to black american, black Americans, it is still a struggle to assimilate them because of this racial disparity. So that has been my aha. Moment to say, we thought this was the land, but these are the inner struggles that are really not portrayed in the Hollywood movies that we see. But for me, the how moment was to say, Africa and other countries, we have our own struggles. This is when I found the similarities with America to say it is. We need to push that. I'm noticing how the women's league is actually pushing people to vote. That is still the same struggle in Africa where we're trying to get women to vote. After we get women to vote, it's still a struggle on getting women running for public office. So it's interesting to find that the biggest nation, the biggest United States of America that runs democracy is having those struggles. So it's been a learning phase, and I feel more. I feel I can relate more with America, more on an exchange than when I thought it would be an answer book type of approach.

19:28 I think for me, too, it's still about the racial segregation thing. This is something that is really crucial. And, you know, it's hard for me to still say that. I still ask myself this question after all these years. We are in the 21st century. We have. We just finished a naturalization ceremony right now, and. But still, we still have this segregation. We still have these African Americans here suffering, just. Still being themselves, just. And if I see how this division occurs and me that's now coming from Africa to come, and I be here, like, how is that going to be? I remember in Williamsburg, I never told you this typo. I remember in Williamsburg, we went to eat in a restaurant, and two guys told me, like, what are you guys doing here? Go back home. So it means these are people who. They didn't know whether I'm, like, an African American or I'm just coming from Africa, but just telling a black person, go back home. This is really sensitive, and this is too emotional. And I also. Yesterday I was with Davina. We made a very big tour of Charlotteville. And, yes, this is a very cool place. But at the same time, she was telling me, just recently, there's been, like, a lot of racist things that happened. The KKK went downtown, and, like, this is not a good image of America. This is a very big aha moment to me. I'm like, come on. I'm not expecting this. Even though from back, from the other side, we know this still continue. But I wasn't expecting this to be too big and too.

21:21 For me, what's been interesting is that for America to be America, it's a nation, from what we have been learning, where people actually migrate to America. And it's interesting where the people who have migrated feel the power to segregate others more. For me, that was, I mean, after fighting the colonial revolution, slave trade came. And I find it very funny. I find it very silly, but anyway, but besides that, there's a lot we need to learn. Were inspired and motivated by the infrastructure, the systems, and all people's attitudes are secondary, but we feel there are more things we can adopt and fine tune going forward, going back home. And yes, after the naturalization ceremony. With that I've seen, I feel the need to come to America, probably for learning or to work, but I don't think I would really want to be a citizen here.

22:20 I knew you're going to think that. Yeah.

22:23 I'm that obvious. Maybe it's the pan africanism in there, but yeah, it's a great place for, for personal and professional development, but I doubt it's a place I'll call home when. I'm not sure when the next shooting would be.

22:35 Yeah.

22:37 All right, well, thank you both for coming in the tent and sharing your story.

22:42 Thank you. Thank you for hosting us.