Lauren Devine and Jordan Greenbaum

00:00 Nervous.

00:04 I sort of hope your puppy does bark. Just don't break the ice.

00:12 My name is Lauren Devine. Today is March 16th, 2021 and I'm here with my colleague. Jordan Jordan Greenbaum from Atlanta, Georgia and very happy to be here today.

00:26 Jordan, I just need to ask you what got you into what you're doing today. What was the initial thing that led to the work that you're doing? And what kind of got you into what you're doing by ended up, is a very circuitous route right now. I am a child abuse decision, which means for the last twenty or so years. I've been working at a children's hospital doing. Evaluations of children, who are suspected victims of physical, and sexual abuse. And then the last maybe ten years also focusing on child trafficking for labor and sex it so much of my work now a child trafficking and exploitation and I think that I ended up working and trafficking because I was medical director of our child protection Center for many years in Atlanta's children's hospital. And so one day our CEO calls me up and she says, Hey, I want to know what you're doing. What is children's doing?

01:26 Child sex trafficking, I was talking to so-and-so or some person that she was talking to and they asked me what children's is doing. So I'm asking you and I said, watch, I don't know nothing and I realized that moment that, that was a huge gap. In our services, that child sex trafficking exploitation is a form of abuse and we are child abuse positions and a child protection staff. And really need to know something about that than offer services. So that just watched it. And if it was great because it really, it really took off to become a real passion. And then I realize there's more to it. Then children in the United States were being sex, trafficked. There's a whole world of Labor trafficking was a whole world on global children around the world who are being sent to labor traffic in town. So now my my focus is really Global as well as within the United States.

02:25 I'm a social worker. And so I was really interested in grad school studying unaccompanied children in unaccompanied, minors and understanding. What are the different spellings for application? Went there in the United States out. What are things that are supported and you do the same. And so I was going to graduate program. That was my plan was to actually be going to a refugee camp for my internship. And any last minute they were like, you know, we're actually going to be placing you in Vietnam. There's a community there, an organization that's working to build this sustainable model to basically end trafficking but also end the organization. So basically what it was was this organization with

03:25 I'm in stride as support the community to no longer needs organization. In terms of supporting his children and youth works and lives on a garbage dump in the province. Had no access to housing, food, shelter education, really any resources. And so they everything was based on the community leaders, making the boats, making a call to what to do next to terminate who would get housing, what organization they wanted housing. I'm kind of going through all this stuff. And so I went into this internship, this observing. And I think it was one of those things fall into a field. So, fall into working in traffic. I knew I specifically wanted to work with Children and Youth and children experiencing displacement, but I think it's being stopped wasting even. Just like the public health framework for looking at what? What these kids were experiencing and looking at what things were put in place that led to them being more vulnerable. Made me really

04:25 I'm in seeing how much just the opportunity to attend school, just the opportunity to have a thing. I'm really created a shift for them and their family. And so I just observed a lot. I was there for a few months. I'm just observed and tried to provide any sense of support. I really was a lot of observation and so I came back in and works where did unaccompanied minors are going to Texas and continue to work with you that expense trafficking through that program and came to be see where I was working in foster care crisis stabilization and I came in so many clients to, you know, would mention that they had to have sex in order to get the food that they wanted where they thought that they needed to do this to get this. And it's so interesting that that was even, you know, six, seven years ago. And at the time their care providers weren't even reviewing that as a sentence of trafficking.

05:25 That person is so I can just slowly and all these experiences where, you know, now I'm working with foreign Nationals who have experienced trafficking. I think I'm realizing just in all these small places in all these systems are just the issue of trafficking and so kind of just fell into my lap, I guess in different situations, but really honored to work in the field and really honored to do the work curious. When you shared Jordan, when you mentioned that your your director called you, what is that feel like for you and you realize do. This is nothing. We're doing it. Yeah. What did you feel in that moment? What did you just feel since you know our program to be lacking something? So it but it was a wake-up call. I was at after I got over my embarrassment. She was very gracious.

06:23 But it really is. I think it it really turns the whole the whole program around in my I made it much bigger and so changed my career. So I was glad it's just two shows how fortuitous things are, you know, and how much people can make a difference, you know, whoever it was. She was speaking to was the initiator of all that and that got a lot going. On. That makes me feel good that small things can lead to big changes job situation. And what are some things that you've seen that have a change that you that just in the field of trafficking that you've seen shifts. Just since that time she came to you and talk to you. What are some things. You've been a part of that you've seen. Just yeah, just be really different. I think that over the last, I don't know 10 years or so. Maybe it's been a big change culturally. And the way that professionals child.

07:23 Professional to view, traffic persons, especially children youth who are trafficked in in the sense that they are engaging in survival, sex, for example, if they're going to live on the street survive and exchanging sex to get what they need gradually. We're having a culture shift, stop seeing those kids, as troublemakers, who deserve whatever, they get instead, see them as children who have been through really a living hell and are very few choices, are just trying to get by. And so the more we I think he's seen it. This I'm not going to blame that person. This look at how they got there. I think that is a really encouraging thing, but it takes time and it's far from being Universal at all, but I do see that there's more of a, of a trend to you.

08:23 Be more empathic. What it? What do you think? He's seen. The same type of thing is always happening, in a sense of, if you did this in this, this wouldn't have happened just when it happened. And I think Spencer refreshing to see the shed to realize that these are factors outside of this individual's control and they didn't choose to be exploited and they didn't choose six princess. And I think there's just, you know, trauma-informed such a buzzword, but I think truly people are becoming more trauma-informed and it's you know, I think through the Charming from trainings. We took years ago in the field and seeing people demonstrate, inform practices. It's like oh this is this is real to becoming more of a reality.

09:23 I think in the in the healthcare field, you know, 10 years ago. Nobody was thinking about traffic and nobody had any idea. It was not on our radar screens and now it's not like front-and-center, but more and more Healthcare Providers are paying attention. Oh, wow. I think I have seen that before and I got to be more careful and think, you know, recognize it. It's becoming more of an issue because the healthcare sector really has to be made aware answer trained to respond. I think we're making very slow progress there, but steady and I and I totally agree with you. The trauma-informed approach has really taken on a life of its own and health and all these different Child Learning organizations. That really has become something not quite but it's moving towards mainstream. Don't you think? And you mentioned that your kind of becoming more involved interested in working and it with international law and international studies on with Children and Youth for international?

10:23 Can you share a little bit more about that? I work. A lot of my work is with the International Center for missing and exploited children. And I head up there Healthcare the component of the health care program and my job is to try to work with healthcare providers, around the world to improve the health sectors response to child sexual violence, including trafficking as well as labor trafficking, until I'm really involved. In trying to come up with ways to raise awareness among nurses and doctors all around the world and find out about how children who are being trafficked, how they have access to Medical Care in mental health care and what the barriers are to care. And in fact, it was really kind of cool. What are the best thing I've done in the last couple years? More, something I've done. I think she was too, we did this study, and we called about 45 different childhood professionals around the world.

11:22 We interviewed them and said you have to tell me you work with kids have been trafficked in shelters or in hospitals or wherever they're working with them. So how do these kids get health care, and mental health care? And what kind of problems do they face? And it was fascinating because you as we learned so much from people all over the world and one thing that we saw over and over and over, that didn't matter, whether you were talking to somebody from a very low resource country or something from a high resource cuz it's a ferrier's were the same. That the staff are not trained, all best resources. You don't know what human trafficking is. The care. We need more Mental Health Services. It was in the United States, are the barriers to care where things there are modifiable, which was really helpful though. It's not a totally great picture. We can do something about most of them with training and technical assistance.

12:23 Really work with people inside. Okay, how can we train everybody in your staff? How can we get the guidelines together for your hospital? So that it's easier to recognize and respond. No, that's that's incredible. Thank you for your. When they, when you were doing that research. Did you get it? It, it seemed like they felt stuck, or did it seem like they found? There is a small things, and some modifications, that could be done. I think a lot of people felt in a very hopeful that their program would would work somehow. But also very thorough overwhelmed. They're just sort of universal lack of resources, people everywhere at work. We're all doing, what we can on a shoestring until there, is that sense of God, it's overwhelming. These children need so much, but there was also a lot of hope. I mean, did you feel that when you were in Vietnam, when you are facing this incredible projects with these? These kids in this community?

13:23 With her help or was it fair that, you know, I feel like my experience is and I don't know if you can really do this. It's like it's so you see these individual moments, are these individual stories are these individual clients? And it doesn't give you so much hope so. It's like, you can see this big issue. But when you're working in the field, in case management or you're working in the field as a doctor, you write like you see these moments and you're like, okay. I hope today because I saw this happened to this time. I saw this one use no, attend school. And is telling me that she's going to go to college or take this other job or you this child who didn't have access to Medical Care in Auburn. This child had fallen in a bowl of oil and was burned everywhere. And because of that, because they didn't have access to resources.

14:23 Take, he was just, you know, his he was just in a situation where he was actually just having to sit at home all day and couldn't move them going to do anything and through a simple Medical Care and support he was able to then, you know, play again, smile again, you know, run that, you know, run and play with his friends and just so the moment. I feel like just show so much hope and I think even working here in the US, just just hearing stories of these situations that you just give you a lot of hopes. I feel like yeah, sometimes it's it's perspective. It's no seeing these big situations that feel hopeless and you'll full of Despair, but then you get these little snippets on your nuggets, really hopeful? I have this case. I so I my undergrad, I did African studies and I was in Tanzania for summer, which was when

15:23 And there's this man that he had no been in an accident and has lost the ability to walk. And because of that, he wasn't really able to work on the farm or help support his community. And it led to him being in situations where he was really struggling with a lot of things including depression and really struggling to feel check the nurse. That was there had located this bike that he could use with his hands, this contraption. And then he was able when she got that. He was able to help on the farm and and do everything he wanted to go to do. And it was a small moments that you seem like you said, it's the small modifications that can make huge differences and in creativity, you know, being Innovative and creative and thinking through those things. And I think watching you do for me watching creative things.

16:23 Hearing and he's creative things happening. It's just on firing to see you like how the small things can really make such a huge difference around the world. So many different ways of looking at resilience or more, just sore healing process. Behavioral cognitive behavioral therapy in therapy for trafficking survivors. It's been really helpful for these women and a nice folks. Another person in Africa who was a former Child Soldier and he was saying now i n, g over former Child soldiers. And what I do is I just treat through storytelling. I tell stories, they tell stories and they serve just get started.

17:23 Get it out. What they want to process to get it out and so good. It's clear which isn't in different areas of the world where they do things. Like what we were saying to is, you know, especially when working an unaccompanied minor program, we have these ideas and really what they found in reese. A lot of research was that connection to community for these used with everything and protective study really really love like the kids that were in his group homes with the other use that had been unaccompanied. Children actually were really thriving versus the homes with

18:23 Just a couple of foster parents because they had that sense of community and connection and of course you can have that to the Community Connector, but it was just interesting to see these, you know things that you think this is what needs to happen to. These are the things that need to happen and then realize no, actually it's not what you would accept working with Ori and the kids there. How do you think it's changed your, your view of the world? I know it sounds really. Yeah, you know, it's interesting because I was interested in the unaccompanied child population in one, starting in 2011, prior to like, the big surge in 2014. As the night. I started working at the office on trafficking, not with, or are but getting a lot of referrals from or are for children that experience trafficking starting and any know 2015.

19:23 Following that that Surge and kind of seen the ships and patterns in case Trends in and things that we are seeing and types of exploitation occurring. And I think it's, it's kind of one of those things where it's this huge. It's a population of children. It's his group of people experiencing this the sense of life. That is a lot of people for so long didn't even know what's happening. You know, this was in existence for so long. It wasn't until things really, you know, I was in the last few years people became even more where that something that's really shipped to. My perspective is just realizing like how much has happened in our world that we don't even know what's happening in 2011 needs kids. Their experiences were, you know, just as soon as you know exploitative or you know, they were running from the same types of things as they are making. Now, maybe we didn't even know what's happening. And so

20:23 Yeah, I think that is one thing that I've kind of been reflecting on. And I also just, you know, I received cases of trafficking on behalf of yeezy's everyday. And I think it's almost when it's one of those things. You just can't wrap your brain around and I'm still in your field and what you're doing every day. It's similar. Where this experience that you're you're reviewing and reading through that, someone as experienced. It, it's not it's not something you, you know, make sense of. And yeah, I think I just feel very humbled that have the opportunity to review these cases and do you know work with this population? Yes, it's a huge honor. So when I read her to read about experiences or talk to kids about their experiences at does it makes me feel very humble. I think that's a very good way of putting it in also very lucky. I guess I cannot imagine.

21:23 Living through many of the experience that these kids have had lived through. You know, I'm there 9 gives me enormous respect for resilience in children learned a lot from that. And I think I also think that I've learned to listen much more and listen to what the kids have to say it. Cuz you know, we can't assume I can't do that. What? I think it's the same things that they're thinking. My perspective is not the same as theirs. And theirs is probably more accurate, just shut up. And listen, definitely has there been a child or situation or a person that has influenced you that really sticks out.

22:12 A moment with a child are not a particular happen sometimes when a child and clinic and I feel like I just connect and you know that it may not make any difference but for that 20 minutes or half an hour that we're talking I feel like there's some connection and I can't show how much I respect that child and maybe through begin to get them to think about themselves.

22:48 With self-respect and I still like their life is not out of control, the movie to have a little bit of choice and people respect them and that it feels like a real personal connection. Leave and, you know, I have terrible experience 30 minutes or whatever. It is seems like there's and I mean honestly. 30-minute connection could change her life forever. You know that Mom and you hear that from from people just you know, I even think I've been thinking of influence like my father has really inspired me throughout my life and you know, he's overcome so much and his story is Izzy's moment. There's 30 minute moments. Those 15-minute interactions with people that touched him. That he said that shifted his trajectory and that really supported.

23:48 And so even though it's 30 minutes for you. It's amazing how much, how much power can come from this moment? So this is your father understand that when it went, when they were happening, or was it many, many years later. They look back or I really have any opportunities and he really struggled with addiction and, and in a lot of different things and he, he was so brilliant, but just didn't even know those next steps and where to go and came into these situations where someone was, like, I'll have this internship opportunity at the hospital for you in an abandoned house. Now, I have this trailer, you can stay and just come here and he's mom is so now he'll say, you know, that person, if it wasn't for them. I wouldn't even come today, you know, if it wasn't for that long.

24:48 If it wasn't for them noticing in and he he shared with me that there is one teacher that that when he came to school on a really bad day instead of shaming him for what he had done, the teacher gave him a book and told him to read it and it was and, you know, I didn't read it that day. He's like I read it later. But that. Teacher not shaming me and just being real with me and honoring me and give me that book is why I am who I am today while I'm able to be, you know, a father at work are you know these things? And so he said he can't locate them. So I think your question. Yeah, I think it was more later on this early. End up those moments that he really, you know, saw the influence that they had and yeah, just just reflective of what they had done. So, yeah.

25:47 It's not just a cool or can I tell, you know what you're describing? It's like these moments in your not sure where they're going. But you just feel like I'm going to do everything I can to respect this child in this moment and honor than hoping that it yeah. Don't stress and don't open them. So yeah, yeah.

26:05 You mentioned, you know, people that have changed our lives night. I remember one person in particular many, many years ago. I was in training. It really turned my life around that would back when I was a resident. I was in a Pathology residency. And so after Medical School, Pathology residency. And I replace my life, my bad. And I didn't know why I was in medicine. I was thinking about dropping medicine, but then I didn't know what to do and I've just felt awful about myself and my choice isn't really bad. But this man, Steven Geller was a cheer of the department. Would not give up on the he just refused you just you know, I would say I think I'm going to quit. No, you're not an hour and then, you know, I pull it together for the other day and he just never gave up on me except myself for their times. And after about a year. I mean this guy was for sis.

27:05 I really start turned around and found my way, but I would never have done that without him. So I reached out to him about a year ago. And I think I think it was it was nice to acknowledge it cuz he had done so much and I think it's nice to come around and knowledge and it took me years to write that letter. I just I just couldn't do it. And then finally, I did.

27:44 I don't know if you've ever had experience like that, but certain people can just really sure you're around. Yeah. Yeah, I mean definitely my dad. I think there was I think I'm really really moved by people that are quiet and that their actions speak for themselves. Like so watching, I just love to observe and I just had so many lucky experiences where I was, you know, it was actually that Tanzania trip. I watch this nurse and she was quiet, she hardly talked at all and I would just follow her around all day just watching what she did and watching the way that she had just over time, daily built respect with so many people that they trust. It heard. They trust become to her when they they needed medical support. I trusted her perspective and I think it it really is funny when I got back. I actually changed my major to nursing. Did you really did? And I took an atom.

28:44 Geology. And I know this is not, this is not my future. I stuck with, I stuck with the international witches. African studies that I was doing was pretty funny. I actually completely and it was basically a semester of just wasting my time and he's classes that I never ended up doing anything with the first six months. So that's an impact. Yeah, and she has no idea if she's one of those people. I don't even know how I would reach out to her. But your story was kind of inspire me to what do you think I'm doing in ten years where we met some years & years.

29:28 You know, when my husband and I got married.

29:32 Six or seven years ago. How many years ago? Did we get married? We were like, oh we're going to live in the u.s. Per you know, two weeks and maybe two months and then we're going to live in another country and just born and we have lived in the same DC for 7 years. So it's funny how you have any plans about what you're going to do. And I think we both love absolutely love what we're doing. I'm so grateful that life ended up that way, but in terms of what I'm doing, I'm hoping I'm still working with children. And actually I do. I love my job. I love what I do. It's just like it is in Vegas on her with my life and I I hope I can continue doing it. Continued learning and I'm growing. So yeah, I don't see myself doing similar work in 10 years, maybe hopefully with a little bit more knowledge and experience, but you know, we'll see. How about you?

30:31 I think 10 years. I'll probably in the nursing home. But before that, I just, I really like what I'm doing as well. So I think I just really want to keep learning from people around the world and learning about strategies that people are using to help reach kids and break down barriers to care. And, and just

30:55 Try try to reach out to as many cultures as I can, to learn as much as I can. I think it's it. It's so rewarding and I feel like I'm everyday, I'm learning something with whoever I talked to she just be something a lot. So I just, I really like doing that. I don't know that I have any impact, but I do know that, at least the sense of what least I'm trying, and I don't know what I was going to at least credible experiences so much. How do you, how do you take Jordan? How do you manage just all of that? Like, 7 things you enjoy doing? How do you manage just a burn out from your profession or hot? What did you learn? I'm sure if you're anything like me, learn the hard way of things you've burned out in moments and then realize that it's not working. So what is

31:55 I'm not very good at it, that whole works life. Balance thing is Never Enough. Somebody figured that out. Please email me cuz I don't know how to do it. But I tell you that the way I get through it is with my husband. My husband and I are very close and she is

32:13 He's just a really good supportive person. And so I think I would not be anywhere without him and so I can talk to him. I cannot talk and he's fine. He's a supportive no matter what. And when he got sick of me. I have two dogs who I got a lot from, a lot of soothing and comfort from your dogs. How about you? I think I'm in the same boat. I can take all the trainings and read all the books about self-care work-life balance, but not the best at doing it lightning. And I think part of it. It sounds like you two. It's that I feel like I love my job so much that it feels kind of part of my doesn't feel like work like my life and so it is interesting. Hi to her.

33:13 Amazing husband. Very supportive. Just kind pure-hearted, really interesting thinker. So we process a lot together and we love to travel and explore new places with the last year. There hasn't been much of that. But yeah, we love to just travel and just get away. And in terms of dog, is he actually just got a puppy ourselves and I'm sure at times you may have met him during this because I like to be a part of this conversation. But yeah, I think there is something amazing about animals. Just been a lot of comfort in the very accepting. Yeah.

34:00 Yeah, I think yeah, that's a good point. I think that's what I want to be for children in general because children are so just full of imagination, wonder and accepting. And I think that's what inspires mean. I hope to be that for children to feel accepted and supported. So yeah, that's interesting you find out. I think animals are so accepting. We have a therapy dog in our child abuse clinic and she's she's wonderful. She goes into the exam rooms and she's with the kids and sometimes they can talk to her instead of talking to somebody else and she's wonderful, but there is one thing I do remember, one child. He was a teen who had been missing her and going to do, if you would allow us, we were going to do a medical exam and you do some testing and stuff.

35:00 But she she saw a Bella and Bella and they got the whole damn and it was fine. She was absolutely fine after that because the dog was there and just made her feel comfortable and it was such an incredible moment cuz it's so cool.

35:28 My gosh.

35:31 I would love to just observe you Jordan. So what you doing?

35:42 And I'm very interesting, but I learned a lot. I learn 11 people and you know, I love hearing about your work with the Ori. That's something I'm really interested in hearing more about it and hearing what you've learned in all these connections you made when he was learning from the kids. It's just very interesting to me. So how did you prepare for that? You know, when you start work for or I work at with children, I think in. So basically what we do is we there's the trafficking victims, protection act, basically mandates for people to send us cases within twenty-four hours of their being concerns that a foreign National child had to finish trafficking. So we get kisses from all over the United States every day, you know, 5 to 15 cases a day, sometimes. Sometimes 20,

36:42 Are you 15 or 20 cases? But the wheel x 50 children and I think for me, it is really make sure that I'm home them. As I always worked in the field.

37:08 Directly with. So working you. No more remote in the sense of receiving these cases by with the client for National and you had a case to you.

37:24 I think it it can easily you like this. This is this is not a real person. And so it's always been so important to me to make each of these cases real and make sure that I'm seeing each of these people are real people and not just busy summary of concerns. And I find that, you know, getting into that to figure out in terms of self-care boundaries kind of have to figure out these rhythms for. Okay. This is I'm a I'm basically shaking in horrific information, one after another in processing in it and discussing it and how do I do this in a way? That's one beneficial for them, but I can do this with longevity and I'm not going to recite until

38:17 That took some time to figure out for sure. It was a process of learning. I think I find about once a month or once every couple of weeks. There's a case that touches me in a specific way and never leaves me and there's there's a few a handful that I'll never forget. And I've actually never met the child face-to-face, but I feel like I have just based on their store again, and I, I never want, I think the moment that's changes and I'm not seeing cases of human that did something, you know, I really try to practice that and try to to practice at 2. When I found out, I was working doing this work. I felt so privileged but also never wanted to just view them at these cases is numbers. And so I was coming from the field.

39:13 But I think working in the field, I realized so many of these things. I really want to work in in something more macro-policy. So I can support these systems to be better for the situation text often. And in case as I was stuck, you know, is like why can't do anything? Because this policy, I've been really grateful for the opportunity. I want to just get these cases into to, just be able to try to speak to its policy and support. So

39:44 Yeah, I think it's a journey. I think I'm still I still learned so much from these cases and from these kids every day from their cages. And yeah.

39:56 I think that's such a powerful point that that no matter how many cases you read. Each one is different somehow. And while they may seem the same in some cases and broadly the same experience as there are not at all and to keep that in mind, that every child is experiencing something differently. It is really important. Sometimes it's hard to do is just as you're not meeting them, but I think you're right. That's really, really important. Also. I think really interesting to see how kids respond on two different experiences how things are normalized their lives. Sex trafficking wasn't as bad as that. Just learning how how children see their lives and put it put things together how they interpret it.

40:56 What is it's really? It's very enlightening for me. I learned a lot from that. I just said and I think when you're working in the field and you're you're seeing these kids and you see it at the siblings. For example, that experience something in a three siblings, you may see three different responses, you know, acting out shut down. And another just acting like everything's normal and it's like, wow, this is the same experience in a moment. You may stay all they cannot see. Now is, is it when really struggling and you're like no, this is actually probably really healthy. But there it is. I think when you see that but for us to see the situation that happened in the, after effects of all, these kids may need a totally different services for, it's totally different steps. And how

41:56 Do that. And how do you think through that when you're looking at the federal government work in the federal government working on federal programs? How do you make sure that things are flexible enough to to support all those specific ever needs time to the situations. And so, yeah, absolutely. It's it's, every kid really is so different in the way they experience and the way they respond and, and even years later, you know, I think the other thing is, it's so hard to treat children in a vacuum. And the reason they are where they are is, is because of the things around them, social, and behavioral, and other situations that those have to be modified. We can't just concentrate on for fixing up the child, if they're going to return the chili toxic. It's hard because there's so many levels that have to be changed.

42:51 Inspiring. But very, very difficult tomorrow to your Jordan for people that are interested in what you wanted, what you do and what you've done with your life. What would you? What would your advice be there for someone that's interested in addressing trafficking? What would your advice and be? Okay, find out as much as you can about it and have an open mind. See beyond the stereotypes of

43:27 Child sex trafficking in the United States TV on. But what else there is younger children, older children, adults, labor, sex, and lots of different things going on. The more we see, the more we can be able to identify needs boys. As victims are different than girls in transgender. I feel like I can really help out and I really liked it weighs think sometimes in which human trafficking. Particularly I mean, really any expectation. But so many people want to help, you know, it's something I really want to be a part of him and make sure it's just because it's horrible, that people experience that. And I think something that was really helpful was just thinking, through just said that idea of everyone has a different skill set.

44:27 Every piece of the pie is needed me, all every, every single thing that you bring to the table. You may be really good. Idea. You may be really good at working with children. You may be a good teacher, you maybe in all of those things are needed. And so, just, I would just stay, like being yourself, bringing yourself to do the situation and in knowing that you have something to offer, I think it is is really important. That is so well said, Lauren a good happy note. I think there is hope there is hope. We're all in this together.

45:12 Thanks so much Jordan. Thank you. I really enjoyed this. Thanks so much.