Lisa Alvarado and Stephen Tootle

[00:02] LISA ALVARADO: All right. Good evening. My name is Lisa Alvarado 31 years young. Today is August 23, 2021. At about 3:57pm I get the privilege of being here at the COS campus with my partner, Steven Tootle, and. Yeah, new friend. Happy to be here.

[00:26] STEPHEN TOOTLE: That's funny. I was just at the COS campus. I left to come home to do this. I teach at cos. You could have.

[00:34] SPEAKER C: Just had a conversation.

[00:35] STEPHEN TOOTLE: I know we could have. Could have been in person because I was wondering, that looks a lot like the patio over by the coffee shop. Is that where you are?

[00:43] LISA ALVARADO: Yeah. I was like, I can use the pub wifi because it's super strong out here. So I was like, just in case the hotspot doesn't work, I have the pub wifi.

[00:51] STEPHEN TOOTLE: I walked right past you on my way home. I walked right past because I was leaving the Sycamore building. All right, Sorry. My name is Stephen tootle. I am 47 years old. Today's date is Monday, August 23, 2021, and I am across from the College of the Sequoias at my. Across the street from the College of Sequoias at my home. My conversation partner is Lisa Alvarado, and I don't have any relationship to the conversation partner except for apparently she's someone who uses the WI fi where I work.

[01:33] SPEAKER C: All right. I just put a question in the chat for you to ask. Stephen. Lisa. And then Stephen, you can ask it back to Lisa after.

[01:42] STEPHEN TOOTLE: Hey.

[01:45] LISA ALVARADO: Sweet. Thank you, Stephen. So share with me. What made you want to do this conversation today?

[01:52] STEPHEN TOOTLE: Somebody asked me if I would do it. And I. And my kind of. The way I approach stuff like that is generally when somebody asks me to do something, I just say yes, and I do what people ask me to do. And so there wasn't anything more to it than that. When people ask me for things, I just say yes. Am I supposed to ask her the same question?

[02:28] LISA ALVARADO: Yes.

[02:28] STEPHEN TOOTLE: Okay. Lisa, what made you want to do this interview today?

[02:34] LISA ALVARADO: Truthfully, it was Sonia. I think I really appreciated meeting her and how she introduced me to StoryCorps. I think that made me realize it's a safe space to learn how to dialogue around things that you don't traditionally get along with other folks. And I think living in Tulare county and being kind of like a wallflower, just different in my own regard, I find myself in this circumstance a lot and maybe not always skilled up, if you will. So I was intrigued, but really appreciative of her energy and her desire to Bring people together.

[03:09] SPEAKER C: All right, I'm putting your bios in the chat, so if you could read one another's bio. So Stephen, you'll read Lisa's bio and then ask a follow up question. And then Lisa, you'll do the same with Stephen's bio.

[03:27] STEPHEN TOOTLE: Hi there, I'm Lisa. I'm a 31 year old self proclaimed justice warrior. I'm really proud to be the color of earth's foundation and feel really connected to youthful energy. I was an egotistical, Liberated Lush until 2017 when my bestie made his way to the light. Upon losing him and then myself in grief, I rebuilt myself anew. I've been loving fiercely on humanity ever since. Truthfully, I'm just grateful to be here. So now I ask a question on that based on her.

[04:04] LISA ALVARADO: Yeah.

[04:07] STEPHEN TOOTLE: What does it mean to be an egotistical, liberated lush?

[04:11] LISA ALVARADO: Your typical 23 year old, living in the Central Valley, not expressing my gifts, just kind of boozing them away under the premise and guise of just doing what I want. Kind of like 18 year old out of high school who thinks they know everything. I was like a 23 to like 30 version of that, but I was also a heavy boozer, so I was very party, very party girl. So, yeah, kind of just like free spirit, bopping around. Yeah. Hope that answers your question. Yeah, you're a college professor, you get it. Yeah. You know exactly what I'm talking about. Like, you've seen kids who are there because mom makes them there, dad makes them there, right? Yeah.

[04:59] STEPHEN TOOTLE: Left a classroom full of them.

[05:01] LISA ALVARADO: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know if they have any other follow up questions or if I get to jump right into reading yours.

[05:09] SPEAKER C: Yeah, jump right in.

[05:10] LISA ALVARADO: Yeah. Cool. All right. Stephen from Visalia. His grandparents were Okies. I played music and loved history as a kid. I went on to get my bachelor's, taught my bachelor's, my master's and PhD in history and taught in Ohio, Colorado, in Georgia before moving home in 2007. I have two boys, 9 and 12, and I was pretty involved in politics and civic life for a while. I do a weekly podcast with the editor of the Sun Gazette and a weekly webcast with a guy I met at American Enterprise Institute. I ride motorcycles and play music every chance I get. That is Stephen, I guess a follow up question for you, Stephen, is as you instructed, cos. And you do a daily podcast and you're a dad of the three. What's your favorite place to educate?

[06:04] STEPHEN TOOTLE: Oh, in person instruction. Like there's no substitute for having actual Students and teaching history in a classroom, that's the, that's the best. Everything else is just a, you know, again like substitute. Somebody asked me to do something and I say yes. That's what I like to do is be in a classroom.

[06:28] LISA ALVARADO: How does it differ from being a dad? Just on a side question.

[06:34] STEPHEN TOOTLE: Being a dad is entirely different. Being a father changed my entire life because up until you are married and then you have kids, you, you can pursue these like intellectual pursuits and don't really have to worry about anything other than the pursuit of truth or whatever you find interesting. And then, then getting married, you have to then start thinking about the person who you're married to and put her needs in front of your own. And then once you have children, then you really have to put the needs of the kids in front of everything else. And everything else sort of fades in its significance once you have kids. So in other words, I had been studying history because I was interested in history. But once you have kids it becomes also the job that provides for your family. So even your work takes on a different role. But I'm now more tethered to my responsibilities, to my job as a job because I have to pay the bills. And then I'm divorced now, so now I don't have to worry about what my ex wife thinks. But I still have to care for my children every other week. So they, you know, I alternate between being a single dad and being single every week. That's been an interesting transition to make later in life.

[08:37] LISA ALVARADO: Thank you for sharing.

[08:40] SPEAKER C: I just put another question in the chat.

[08:44] STEPHEN TOOTLE: Who should ask it first? Me.

[08:47] SPEAKER C: Why don't you go ahead and ask it first.

[08:48] STEPHEN TOOTLE: Okay. Who have been the most influential people in your life and what did they teach you?

[08:56] LISA ALVARADO: I think after hearing you read my bio and the fact that I feel like I'm in this season of like looking back in like my own history and kind of like self identifying like who really did cataclysmically like shift my trajectory? I'd have to say my bestie, Anthony. And it wasn't like by anything. He wasn't this like woke human, right? Who like taught me a bunch of things. He was a human first and foremost. He didn't put a job title in front of his name. He didn't, he just owned that like that humanity piece. And some of his favorite things about humanity were like the small little joys, the small like making someone smile, like being silly. We met through a drive through at the Sonic drive Thru. I was a roller skating girl and he Was like, learning how to do the drive thru. So they had me teach him. And at the time, videos were like, hot off the press. So you could see the person driving, but they couldn't see you, right? You were in a box. So it was our first day of training. They're like, hey, Lisa, you gotta train the new guy. And I was like, gosh, I don't even work. Drive thru, whatever, I'll do it. So we have this. I was like, all right, your job is to be Suzy Cream Cheese. Just say hi, get their order, and then get them out. Drive through is quick. We're on a time, you know, one on one kind of. So the first lady came through and I gave him, like, the two sentences that you're supposed to read, and he reads it and he goes, ma'am, before I ask you, has anybody told you you look like Beyonce? Mind you, we can see this woman. This woman is not anywhere. He did not look like Beyonce. And it was just hysterical because the lady just, like, lost it. And, like, that was the first personality that I got of him. And this is exactly who he was for entire relationship of friends. So we stayed friends for like, seven, seven years. So we hit like 15 to, like 21 to 23 together. And then we really started to, like, become best friends. And he had a son, and so he's the one who transitioned into the light in 2017. So when he departed, there was, like, a big, significant loss. And I'm wondering if it's kind of similar to you and your divorce of like, just acclimating to, like, the loss of something physical there with you and readjusting. I kind of had my own readjustment period. The biggest difference was, like, the energetic adjustment, like, I really had missed, like, my attaboy, like, the other human who saw the world like I did. And so I've kind of just been on, like, a little hell bent, if you will, or heaven sent. I guess the better way to say that on a mission to kind of just, like, do that, like, say hi to people, greet people, good morning, good afternoon, how's it going? And it's really been influential to, like, be in this age and carry that, because I feel like every time someone is nice back or, like, receives a genuine compliment, it feels like this kinship between he and I. But, like, he's, you know, in heaven or in, you know, in another space. But yeah, I would say he's definitely Anthony Paul Rocha has been the most influential person for me. What about you? Who would you say is your most Influential.

[11:56] STEPHEN TOOTLE: Well, it's funny how it would relate to your stories. Like, I always. My story usually starts with my grandpa, who my older son is named after, but he passed away when I was in grad school, and now I have. Like I said, I have two sons, and my older son is named after my grandpa, and his name is Otis. So one of my sons has, like, a fairly uncommon name, Otis. But when I try to explain to my kids how love works or how what our relationship is to people who have died, the way I would put it is that they put this love in you, and then they put it in me, and then I put it in you. And so that love that these people put in us, that's what we pass on. So. But in terms of who was influential, I mean, I have to start with that generation. Like, my grandpa also had brothers, and I was close to his brothers as well. And then on my mom's side of the family, they just, like, they were that last generation of truly wild Okies. Like, wild. You know, and just they seem like they were from another time. And then once I got into school, I had several close friends. And when my own parents divorced, I became pretty close with my friend Adrian. And he was here at my house last night still. So my three closest friends, we've been friends since second grade, fourth grade, fifth grade, and we all still talk and hang out. And so my friend Adrian's Mexican and from Mexican family. And so from the age of about 10 on, I was at their house. Prolonged stretches. So I always sort of say I was, like, after the age of 10, kind of raised by a Mexican family because they were the closest thing to a family with a mother and a father, where, like, you got dinner and birthday cake and all the stuff that a family would have, you know. And then, you know, as I moved on into college, then my kind of intellectual mentors started to matter more. So my professors at cos, then my professors at Cal Poly, and then my eventual mentor in Ohio. You can't really overstate how important each of these people were. So at Cal Poly, it was people like George Kotkin and David Craig Harlan and Fresno State Victor Davis Hansen, and then at Ohio, Alonzo Hamby and Charlie Alexander and Steve Miner. And, like, you don't know who these people are, but they're all historians.

[15:23] LISA ALVARADO: Hey, they're important.

[15:25] STEPHEN TOOTLE: Yeah. And. And then, you know, I had two really close friends from grad school who I'm still very close with, who are now both historians. One teaches at the University of Texas named Derek Katzam, another one teaches at the Army War College, named Tom Bursino. And then there are people who've come along in my life who've been. I think. I don't know, you think about your life in phases, like your personal life and then your intellectual life and maybe your personal or spiritual life. The people who I go to church with in the last 10 years, or actually my bandmates from the band I was in in Ohio, were really important to me spiritually, but as. Also as friends, because I've always played music in addition to doing history. So that was. Some of my friends from the music scene have also been a pretty profound influence on my life. So, I mean, I think of it as being more like a. I don't know, a tapestry, you know, of all of these really amazing people. And I think what a really incredible life I've had that I get to be exposed to all these really amazing people, and I can't believe that I get to be friends with them. And, you know, just. I'm kind of in awe of the idea that, like, this person who is really incredible, like, this is my friend. You know, we talk on the phone. One of my friend. Actually, one of my newer friends. It seems crazy, but is this historian named George Nash who came out here to do a guest speech, and he's an old man. Like, he lives in rural western Massachusetts. And I don't know if, Sonia, if you've ever heard of George Nash, but, like, no, I haven't. The fact that, like, we. You could Google his name if you want, like. But, like, the fact that we hit it off and became friends, and we talk on the phone all the time. I mean, I don't know how old he is, but he's quite a bit older than me, you know, And I just think, like, it's amazing, you know, it's amazing that I get to talk on the phone with George Nash, and. And he's just such a good. He's such a good human being. He's such a great, nice, warm, kind person. And Peter Schramm was another one who was like that for me. Like, he passed away a few years ago, but just like, wow, I can't believe. I can't believe I got to know that guy, you know? Anyway, I'm going on maybe too long.

[18:21] LISA ALVARADO: No such thing. I mean, talking about the people who help build you. That's. I'm all about that kind of stuff.

[18:27] SPEAKER C: I just put another question in the chat. Lisa, why don't you go ahead and ask Stephen?

[18:34] LISA ALVARADO: Sonia, I Also have some follow up questions. I feel like Stephen's giving some truth too. So like, I'm like, go for it. Okay, cool. I'm. I'm curious, Stephen, like, you know, historians to part of your lineage, right? It's your own history. I'm curious to know, you know, you seem to align yourself with other historians. Like what is it about historians that's drawn to you? Is it the fact that you all are very aware of building legacy? So it's like the constant reminder of like we are walking history?

[19:05] STEPHEN TOOTLE: No, I really think that it's just because they're nice people. I love that because I'm not friends with all historians, but I, but I, you know, and not all my friends are historians, but like I said, a lot of my friends are musicians also. But really it's just, you know, it's just that they're nice. There doesn't really, I don't know that there's anything more to it. Maybe there is, I don't know. I'm sorry if that's not a great answer. But there's like, I'm attracted to people who are nice. And so, you know, when you find someone who's a really quality, high character person, you just want to learn from them. So. And again, kind of just appreciate the relationship that you have and the time that you get with them. I mean, I also, I know that saying their names doesn't, it kind of doesn't mean anything to you. So I was worried my answer was just going to seem like a list of people, you know.

[20:29] LISA ALVARADO: No, you know, storytelling is a part of me and my besties, you know, that's how we're big on oral history and we're big on telling stories of today because we know that our history is just as valid as any other retelling of history. So I was just curious if you and your besties, aside from the artists that you keep close, it's just if there was like that allegiance was what brought you all together. So I'm just really curious. I just met a woman who does diversity, equity and inclusion at co at Fresno State. And her, and her, her and her. Some of her favorite people are also like historians. And I'm like, hey sister, what's the scoop? What is this historian? And there was no relation either. So they're just curious what we have.

[21:11] STEPHEN TOOTLE: In common is this sort of like, appreciate. And I would say this might be different from my friends, is that I like being around people who, when you're having a discussion with them, facts will persuade Them. In other words, what my friends all have in common is this thing where if I'm taking a particular position or if I'm saying this thing happened and one of my friends says, well, no, that's not what happened. Here's the document from that thing that I simply say, like, well, okay, now I will never say that again, I'm wrong. And so what I would say we all have in common is these are all people who if, if they're shown to be incorrect, they just change their minds. And that's a rare quality because a lot of people really hold on to their prejudices even when confronted with facts.

[22:15] LISA ALVARADO: I think that's a purple perfect segue to ask the question that Sonia put in the chat of like, in your own words, briefly, if you maybe describe your political views as you would self describe.

[22:26] STEPHEN TOOTLE: Okay, my. I always, I mean, I have been a lifelong Republican, and it comes from the three things that are distinctive within the older Republican political tradition, and that is a commitment to individual liberty, the idea that each individual has rights as an individual and not because they're a member of a particular group. Economic opportunity, the idea of government, that the proper role of government is to do for a community of citizens what they can't do for themselves in their separate but individual capacity, but in all other things ought not to interfere. And that the, what's often called subsidiarity that you want the level of government closest to the problem, solving the problem. So individual liberty, economic opportunity, and then finally the idea of American exceptionalism, that the United States has a specific role to play in the world, to preserve representative government in the world and to serve as an example for all time and for all people that human beings can govern themselves peacefully. And so having that trio of political beliefs meant that I gravitated towards the Republican Party as a young man. Volunteered pretty young. I started working on campaigns when I was in junior high and stayed very active with the party until Donald Trump came around. And that's when it became impossible to hold my political beliefs, or I should say my political beliefs became unpopular within the Republican Party. And so I haven't changed my voter registration because I kind of feel like they're the ones who should change, not me, because I didn't change. But I am no longer welcome with my political beliefs, or at least I don't feel that I am welcome with my political beliefs in the Republican Party.

[24:54] LISA ALVARADO: Would you feel comfortable to share more?

[24:56] STEPHEN TOOTLE: What's that?

[24:58] LISA ALVARADO: I guess I'm not familiar at why I don't identify as Republican So I don't have a context to understand where the push out the disconnect from you. I love what you shared, though, about. I'm not going to change. You know, I love that. But I'm curious, like, what, what. Why are you not welcomed?

[25:16] STEPHEN TOOTLE: Well, again, my commitment was ideological, so I believe I actually believed in individual liberty. So when I heard, for instance, candidate Trump, before he was president, disparage a, A judge and say, you know, we shouldn't have to listen to him because he's Mexican, well, that's an affront to individual liberty. That's implying that somehow this person is less valid because they belong to a member of a particular group. And I also, you know, during his campaign, he directly. And during his presidency and then his. Even while leaving office, he attacked the very idea and disparaged the idea of representative government. And as president, he did not believe in equality of opportunity. He wanted to be the one who picked winners and losers. So in all of these things, he was a direct attack on my political beliefs. He didn't believe in individual liberty, he didn't believe in economic opportunity, and he didn't believe in American exceptionalism. And so I could not support him. And I found it strange that anybody who claimed to be a Republican could because he didn't share any of the values of the Republican Party. And so because of that transition that took place, I couldn't believe that people who I thought believed the same thing I did were willing to just sort of lie or pretend that he wasn't attacking the Republican Party and the beliefs of the Republican Party. So. And I'm also, you know, I'm not. I didn't go out of my way to be offensive, but when asked, I won't lie. So when people would ask me about specific things, they would say, like, is this racist, a racist statement? And I would say, yes, that is a racist statement. And because, again, my commitment was to telling the truth and to a set of political beliefs that I think are good for human flourishing. And I, I was simply kind of. I was simply unwilling to lie. So could you briefly describe in your own words, your personal political values?

[28:11] LISA ALVARADO: Yeah, I have the privilege of being Brown, so my life is political. The cool thing about my personal lineage or my personal history is my dad immigrated from Mexico, and my mom was born here, but she was born in poverty. So she was a teen mom, secondary high school. And so her and my dad, as an immigrant, he was, went to Sequoia High School, a continuation high school. And so they both met each other at Continuation high school, an extracurricular volleyball program because they needed some extra credit and fell in love instantly, started dating, decided to run away and get married. So they got married at 18. They got married three different times, three different ways because I guess that's just what Mexicans do. They went to Vegas and did a hitch wedding and then they got married by the courthouse and then finally they got married by the church. And so growing up in that household, we were wildly aware of like poverty and like the, the phrase or nidia, which is like not from here and not from there. And my mom is what people would consider like whitewashed Mexican. And I use that with air quotes because it's not an offense, it's more of like a description of the type of Mexican within Mexican stray. I'm sure your best buddy, you know, since you've known forever. I'm sure he can attest or even you can if you've known him for that long, within that proximity, you know exactly what I'm talking about. But yeah, so growing up my dad was super vocal, but it was because he didn't have the ability to vote. And so he was like, my vote doesn't count, yours does. And so he failed the language test so many times. And my mom is wicked intelligent, so she was able to like fundraise, sell things to like always pay for these things. So we always had open dialogue about what's at stake for us. At 14, I joined a young woman's high school program talking about sexual education specifically because my mother is a teen mom. Reproductive health and education is a big part of our familial dialogue. Because she wasn't, she didn't understand health education. So I advocated SB71 at my high school level and interviewed about 500 of the students on my campus and Mainney campus and then went after the school board to implement medically accurate, non biased sex education for all genders, all types of couples, and myself, along with some other really awesome sheroes in this community and some wonderful adult mentors of act women and girls were successful. So that youth organizing and activism just lit this fire inside of me to like excavate my own knowledge, listen to my parents and really look at the system in a way that like I can mold and make malleable. Since it works, that's it works alongside of humanity. Right? You know, as a historian, things that work then do not work now because we as a society has grown. And so I've kind of had this like very radical, like nonconformist abolitionist framework to my own personal political ideologies. But I think it's because the system wasn't built for me. And I know that and I know that when I open up my mouth and have conversation, I come to realize that the law doesn't always side with me. And so it is a system that is a work in progress. And I myself as a voter and an advocate have the ability to move in that. So I guess in a sentence I'm like a nonconformist abolitionist, maybe something along those lines. My values are really big on intersectional feminism. I love what you said in the beginning of the conversation. I think it was something interwoven tapestry, something that is a perfect description of like what I fight for is like I fight for my mom, I fight for my dad, and I fight for everybody who helped raise me. And I predominantly lead with my social justice lens because for me and my family that's what's that biggest harm. But economic equity is big for me right now. So I grow with the system. Give you a mouthful? I'm sorry. Normally.

[32:32] STEPHEN TOOTLE: There was a lot there. I don't know, should we go to the next prompt or should the feminists.

[32:39] LISA ALVARADO: In me, I love talking about it.

[32:40] SPEAKER C: I was wondering if you could talk more about that, about not being a non conforming abolitionist. What do you mean by that?

[32:46] STEPHEN TOOTLE: Yeah, I guess this is my question. If you describe yourself as abolitionist, like what do you want to abolish?

[32:53] LISA ALVARADO: Ah, okay. So like I think when talking about like the system itself, like abolitionist abolitionism. Right? Just abolition in general. I don't, I'm not, I'm not interested in punitive punishment as a form of like actually growth. It hasn't worked for us in the past and it's definitely. If it ain't, I mean if it's not working and you're not going to try something new, then the system is stuck. Right? So like I definitely believe in like an abolishment of like the way that we view.

[33:23] STEPHEN TOOTLE: Right.

[33:23] LISA ALVARADO: Just looking at the prison system, school, prison, pipeline, those, you know, those points of that conversation. The nonconformist piece is as a community organizer now a lot of the radical folks that I work alongside, there's, there's a lot of negative tone, there's a lot of the harm that lives inside of our bodies that we're looking to channel. So the way that folks go about this work is also harmful. And not a lot of people are able to like work through dialogue like you and I, because a lot of those harms are forefront and so present so the way that people go about solving them is just to, like, replicate harm. So, like, the nonconformity piece is really just to name my own way to, like, how I would solve. So, like, I'm a healing based person right after Anthony passed away. Like, just open up my eyes to, like. You can't solve harm with harm. Love is the only thing that's able to pull you into. Into another energetic presence. So theoretically, if love is the only thing that's powerful enough to pull me into another space, what would that look like politically? Because this whole discourse and this whole. No one's taking accountability to your point earlier of, like, it just gets so tense, you're not able to see. Yeah, I just think that there's a new way, maybe a more human, human based way to go about the abolitionist work.

[34:49] STEPHEN TOOTLE: Okay, are we supposed to continue the conversation or is there another prompt?

[34:56] SPEAKER C: Yeah, I've got some prompts. Give me one second. Why? Here we go. So I just put one in the chat.

[35:09] STEPHEN TOOTLE: I've lost track of who's supposed to go first also.

[35:12] SPEAKER C: Well, Lisa, why don't you ask Stephen this question I put in the chat?

[35:17] LISA ALVARADO: Yeah, totally. Steven, question for you. Is there anything about my personal views? Pardon me? I'm on your bio. Is there something about my personal beliefs that maybe you don't under. You don't agree with, but still respect?

[35:31] STEPHEN TOOTLE: Yeah, I suppose I don't agree with that. The system was not built for you, but I understand that it comes from a desire to achieve justice. So I can certainly respect the impulse behind why you would say something like that. But I definitely don't agree with the idea that the system, such as it is, is not something that you couldn't. That really wasn't built for you, and that is something that you couldn't thrive in.

[36:23] SPEAKER C: And how does it make you feel to hear that, Lisa?

[36:28] LISA ALVARADO: I think it makes me want to share more. I'm excavating this myself as I decolonize my own framework. And I think the way that I come to understand this is like, you know, they say the system isn't broken. It works exactly how it's used to. Right. And it's just like they. They use a conversation of, like, slave patrol turning into the police force turning into, like, correction officers. And it's just like, our job was to, like, suppress. Right. I'm sure you're a historian. You hear this narrative all the time, right? Where it's just like, I'm trying not to bring that energy into this, but how I feel hearing that is not acknowledged. But you don't agree because you don't see it that way. So I understand. You don't, you don't. You don't agree with me, but it's because you don't see it that way. So I understand and I know you don't mean any malice by it.

[37:33] SPEAKER C: Is there a system that you can point to specifically? Lisa? Like, just, I mean, I know there's many, but like, one in particular.

[37:44] LISA ALVARADO: I think, of what my indigenous community has been doing prior to, like, where structure has been set in. I think as I continue to learn about a decolonized framework, I derive a lot from my Native American brothers and sisters, specifically the Yokuts here. I think Darlene Franco, for us local folks, can, like, reach out if we want to learn more and hear from her specifically. She's more brilliant and wise than I am. But from my, from my understanding of like a decolonized framework or like, it's just really the interdependence when you talk about, you know, at 10 years old, you embrace your best bud and, you know, the family took you in. It's those types of systems of care that I look towards. And I know that there's not like a, that's not like a, you know, state of the United States, but I think as a framework of like, this is the opportunity that was gifted to us. We take it and we don't say, damn, we have to feed another mouth. It's like, awesome. Look at our friend has the ability to have another friend here that's not like him, not, you know, and there's this camaraderie in this kinship. And look at, in hindsight, it lasted 20 plus years. It's like, it's like predicated on the different but human right and not, and not even related to human to human. It even goes into human to animals, human to how we look at our trees. And it's like, to me, I see what we're in now as a hyperinflation of white patriarchal colonizer mentality, right? Like the overuse of things, the overproduction of things, the over waste of things. I think if we look at interdependence foundationally, those lenses require us to look at our relationship with the land, our relationship with humanity, our relationship with commerce. So prior to even pressing play, there are dialogues with council within this interdependent structure before we actually see what comes to fruition.

[39:38] SPEAKER C: Lisa, I was wondering, though, if you could talk about a system.

[39:45] LISA ALVARADO: That you've.

[39:45] SPEAKER C: Encountered personally, that you felt like Wasn't built for you.

[39:51] LISA ALVARADO: Yeah, a system that wasn't built for me right now. So for example, I am a 31 year old Brown woman born of an immigrant parent and a teen mom. That means because of poverty, I was born on a specific type of town. Right. Like that's just how the cookie crumble. They got together. What could they afford? I'm in this part of town. I also went to that kind of school district my parents couldn't afford, so I got to go to my aunt's house. So like as a system of care, just like the school wise, the school wasn't able to like handle a child like me. I'm hyperactive. I'm, you know, I was an undiagnosed ADHD kid. So like I'm bouncing off the walls. I, my mom and my dad were gone for work, so I kind of took care of my siblings. So I get to school and I'm erratic and hungry all over the place. But I'm, you know, a high achiever. So I work school. But then it's like I get this homework. We find out homework really isn't supportive for students anyways or still assigning it. It's like, it's like the school system the perfect. We didn't think of the student, we didn't think of the familial body. Like even course curriculum. How are we obtaining a new level of humanity when the course curriculum is derived for you to succeed in a world where it's going to be automated by the time they graduate? So it's just like, I don't know if that's like a visionary or a little too lengthy or maybe a little off pocket. But like the system isn't meant to serve me. The system is like meant to serve the system. Right. So like here to educate, just plump out educated folks. The easiest way to do it is like the Henry Ford style it up and you know, assembly line it, you know, elementary, middle. I don't know if that necessarily serves folks. It's definitely not health and wellness based. Yeah. And I think even now you're looking at folks within Covid. It definitely does not serve humans.

[41:58] STEPHEN TOOTLE: We're over.

[41:58] LISA ALVARADO: Yeah, I'm gonna stop. I feel like I'm babbling.

[42:01] SPEAKER C: Stephen, I'm wondering like as an educator, how. What do you think of that commentary?

[42:09] STEPHEN TOOTLE: Well, this isn't my class. This is a conversation. So I treat this conversation differently than I would in a classroom setting. So I'm trying to kind of honor the process of listening to a story. So in a way, I think it's better to just let her speak.

[42:37] LISA ALVARADO: Sure.

[42:40] SPEAKER C: I just put another question in the chat. Could you ask that to Stephen? Lisa?

[42:48] LISA ALVARADO: Yeah, sorry. Sometimes my phone won't populate the messages. I have to zoom out. Okay, awesome. Steven, is there something about my beliefs that you do agree with? Oh, wait. Nope. Lied. Just making sure you guys are paying attention. Stephen, do you ever feel misunderstood by people with different beliefs than you, perhaps other people on the side of the other side of the aisle?

[43:15] STEPHEN TOOTLE: Sure. Mostly because I feel like there are some automatic assumptions that go with the labels that other people put on me. And, you know, the idea, if you were to write down the sort of labels that other people would put upon me, that I, of being a Christian, conservative, straight white male, Republican, these are all things that for other people, each contain a lot of weight that really has nothing to do with me. And even the terms themselves have nothing to do with me. And they're not even necessarily ones that I would want applied to me. So it's pretty common, especially spending my entire professional life in academics that I. And with the rise of identity politics in the last 15 to 20 years, really coming to dominate academics, it is frustrating and disheartening how often it's. Again, sort of your commitment to truth or to facts is not persuasive. Reality doesn't matter to a lot of people. All that matters are what labels do you put on yourself and what labels do you put on other people. And that's what matters. And I find that to be counterproductive and also a fundamental misunderstanding of who I am. So do you ever feel misunderstood by people with different beliefs than you and how so?

[45:47] LISA ALVARADO: Absolutely. I love what you said and want to elevate what you said about labels. That's why I'm like, really intentional about the language that I use because it actually causes people to pause and, like, consider the label itself. And if it's not a label they're used to, it's like they'll receive more after piece of what I share rather than the label itself. And, like, kind of have new linkage. Yeah, I get a lot. I get a lot of flack from folks because I'm brown. And now that I'm like, this is what's really funny is like just my hair. You said something about the describers that people even talk to you. And it's like, sometimes you won't even use those. It's like, so spot on of like, I have big curly hair now. I didn't know how to comb this mane of mine, and I went to a woman, brown, who was brown and had curly hair, and she taught me some things. And so now it's just like this big fro. Anywhere I go. People see the hair before they see me. It's bigger than my mouth, it's bigger than my brain. It's bigger than my heart. For some reason, it's just the first thing you see. And people immediately think that I'm, like, this expert. And it's like. And I just thought that's the perfect description of what people see when they see labels. It's like you don't. You no longer see anything. You just see that label, that identifier. So I'm a big proponent of dialogue. I don't think we have enough of it, especially in this day and age. So, yeah, I guess to your question, I definitely feel misunderstood. Yes. And I. I wish. I wish people would hear more because like you said in the beginning, if you indoctrinate to the original ideologies of the Republican Party of commitment to equity, commitment to life and liberty on the pursuit of your own terms without any interference, then we are more alike than we are different. Right. But if you told me that you are a Republican, heterosexual, white, cisgendered male, and, you know, queer, femme, bipoc. Identifying. Right. Like staples. Right. Like, it's like, we wouldn't necessarily be having this conversation, this somewhat big. Right. But, yeah, here we are.

[47:57] STEPHEN TOOTLE: Indeed.

[47:58] SPEAKER C: All right, so we've got a few minutes left, so I'll open up the floor if there's any final questions that you all that you both wanted to ask. If not, I'm going to put one in the chat to kind of help you along.

[48:16] LISA ALVARADO: I have a question regarding just history.

[48:20] STEPHEN TOOTLE: Okay.

[48:20] LISA ALVARADO: So as somebody as educated as you in history, living in the Central Valley, and, you know, you talk about people denying facts all the time. That's why it's such a breath of fresh air to be with your best buds, because it's, like, cool. Matter of fact, we can adjust and then move forward. How does that work for you in an educator perspective of, like, how backwards Tulare county is with the way we treat women and, like, the knowing of systemic oppression, the knowing of that historical, like, time capture. What. What are you doing to help bring that to, like, actualization for people in your classrooms? Because, like, we are, you know, a heavy county of people of color. So, like, you're dealing with people like myself who are wrestling with, like, these policies and these things that don't. They don't validate our existence. But you're in a perfect position to share matter of factly, how this works. Like, how do you wrestle with that and what works?

[49:20] STEPHEN TOOTLE: Well, I'm in a somewhat unique position because most people who kind of went on my career path wouldn't find themselves back in their hometown. You know, you have to follow the job market. But I made the decision to move back to my hometown and partly because at the time, I was married and I wanted to raise my kids in an environment that was a little more connected to reality because it would be very easy in academics to move around in circles where you would not see reality. And so I decided to move back to my hometown and actually leave academics entirely in order to do so. And I just kind of got lucky that I got a job at COS because, I mean, it's the only college in town and they've only hired three history professors in the last 50 years. So you can't assume that you're going to get a job just because you moved here. But you in terms of. And I think about this too, because a lot of my friends are in what might be considered more elite institutions, but they write books that nobody reads. And I touch a thousand students every semester. And I don't. I feel like the place where I can do the most good is here. And I feel a sense of mission teaching here that I wouldn't feel at any other college. I don't know if that's an adequate answer to your question, but the reason I came back here was so that I would live in this environment and my children would live in this environment, and I would be able to maybe tell a story to my students at COS that they could relate to, because I did leave. And I can tell my students, you know, we sometimes call it Valley. Itis like, you wonder I'm smart, but am I just smart for the Valley? You know? And then, so I bring scholars to COs who are from Harvard and Yale and Princeton and elite institutions and put COS students in front of them so that they understand that they. There aren't any real limitations on what they can achieve and they just need to take the blinders off and understand that those opportunities are all out there for them and they should just go and take them.

[52:28] SPEAKER C: Well, I think that's a good place to wrap things up. How is that for both of you?

[52:35] STEPHEN TOOTLE: It's good.

[52:36] LISA ALVARADO: Yeah, it's good. It was a conversation.

[52:39] SPEAKER C: All right, cool. Well, thank you so much for. Yeah. Your time and participating in this. I know it's not always easy wrestling with these kinds of conversations. But one small step, right? Pause the recordings.