Lisa Cook and Margaret Levenstein

00:01 This is Lisa Cook. I am a professor of economics and international relations at Michigan State University.

00:12 Okay, this is Maggie levinstein. I'm the director of icpsr at age 57 years old and it's May 22nd 2020. I am in Ann Arbor, Michigan and I am talking to Lisa Cook who is the chair of the icpsr council though? Our interview today is because of each other for probably about 30 years.

00:58 My name is Lisa Crook and I am a professor of Economics at Michigan State University. And I am 54 years old today is May 22nd. 2020. I am in Ann Arbor, Michigan. I am here talking to Maggie levinstein and I am delighted to talk to Maggie because as as she has already said we have known each other for a very long time and we have a connection is economic historians and we are on the icpsr among icpsr Council and it's been a fascinating time to be on the icpsr. Cancel.

01:58 Watford station

02:05 Okay, Maggie, so I want to remind your deepest thoughts here. So I could describe your role in the icpsr community. I know you did director, but tell us more about your role in the community one way to think about the icpsr communion. What makes a really interesting is that it has multiple communities and so icpsr was created at the University of Michigan and I've been on the faculty of University of Michigan for about 30 years. And so if I could get her heart University of Michigan and some part of my role is is the the representative between icpsr to the unit or from my guitar to the University of Michigan. So that's one piece of it.

03:05 Icpsr is also there about a hundred and thirty people who work at icpsr so want to on a daily basis mostly what I'm doing is interacting with our staff and faculty to help them Define their roles and figure out where we're going as an organization, you know.

03:26 Plan and implement the things that we do so there's that icpsr is also a Consortium of almost 800 universities and research institutions and around the world and soap. So part of when I'm into car that I can get our community and a large part of my role is talking to our institutions about in part why its value what you know, what they can get out of being a member of ice for my CPS are so at the current moment for example, almost all of our members in the you know, in a split-second move from teaching in regular classrooms to teaching online. And so we had to think about how do we make our resources accessible and useful to people who are teaching online for the first time?

04:26 Quickly transition we've also had to transition to on the current pandemic and hearing from our members that people are creating J2 resources created a thing called the covid-19 people had a place to put the day that they were creating for conducting right now in the middle of this. So so a part of our community is another part of my role is other kinds of communities. So that means I spend a lot of time I'm not sitting on my back porch as I am right now and I might have been the last two months in Washington and in other funeral other places around the world.

05:26 Where there are either statistical organizations or think tanks creating data resources and talk to them about the kinds of data resources that they are making available. They're building. What should they be building how to make those resources available to the community? I spend a lot of time talking to funding organizations about how to make sure that when they fund research that there were also putting funding into into the preservation of data and preserving it in the way that allows it to be accessible the other two others. I spent a lot of time helping talking to people in all different kinds of forms. Sometimes they are universities and sometimes their agencies and often times. They are various kind of learned Societies or or organizations. I'm talking about policies and best practices around data management. How do we teach people how to manage and preserve data?

06:26 Improve how we do that so that it be get successful. It's accessible and reusable and so so there are a lot of there a lot of external communities who are who are stakeholders in icpsr even though they are neither actually a member or an employee or affiliated with the University of Michigan or any of those things, but I'm part of my role is to be is to both share with them icpsr as ideas on the subject and they hear from them what they're doing so that we can always be as responsive as possible to what the research and it and learning community and that's kind of that's what it that's what it means to be to be a director of icpsr.

07:20 That's great in this role. And I'd like to ask you this covid-19 effort is huge. And I think it's timely I think that's been recognized. But what data the icpsr possesses and curates would you say is the most surprising Target?

08:01 It's so that's that's an interesting question of different kinds of things. I mean, we have many thousands of studies. I thought you like that when you first start out thinking about what are we gotten just in the last few weeks you've been getting in and so most of the day that we're looking for as you know, he is related to the social behavioral economic impact of of a cold and really is biological and so we're trying to figure out how or where they should be findable by people who are medical researchers.

08:57 What about the the American economic Association Journal that have been so difficult to receive and have openly would be deposited in one place that is useful for studying the impact of epidemics and we did a and of course there's actually an enormous amount of the economic history data that we have that looks at the economic impact of epidemics in in previous. So we have data from the 1918 flu epidemic. We have data that economic historians have created the study the impact of Apple.

09:57 Text over the last you know, when they have centuries earlier than that, and we also have a lot of longitudinal data for people that you can see in those the impact of a different kinds of major help Advance on people or so. So there's other side of the 88 data is something that we Carolina to The American Nation has four think about 15 years been requiring that researchers who published in their journals make the data available, but I'm and what they would do with it would give it to the journal and it would get stuck on a website and and it was very hard to find and it was hard to make you some and the ax thing to its credit realize that

10:57 I'm well, that was a a novel thing to do when they first started requiring that that it was no longer best practice to treat a dataset as a you know, a file that was stuck at the end of a PDF, just like it didn't make sense. And so we now have thousands of data sets that have been there associated with thousands of publication from the station at icpsr and that means that both people can understand people who read those articles can get a much deeper understanding of what the content of those article but also that the people can build on them think about science as a process of building blocks that people you make progress in building knowledge by on being able to access the things that people done before throwing people write an article and they share the data.

11:57 When other people can look at that data that I can actually build on that and that are understanding of our economy. Our understanding of our is able to improve in ways that you just can't get there. As someone once said this was their advertisement of their analysis, which is kind of what they the article restart. It's not the research both the data and the software the code that used to analyze data for all of those articles other things about a lot. Is it a lot of times one of the biggest challenges that they are ye and other journals have had when they tried to get people to share the data people say I can't share my data because it's confidential. It's restricted. It's under NDA it belongs to somebody else and we have set up a set of procedures.

12:57 So that people can share at a minimum can share their code if their data are confidential we have multiple ways. We called them think of it as different tiers of access for different levels of data to protect me and make sure that is accessible in a responsible organization that respects the rights of the the creator of the data we can we can make something but in a way that doesn't impede scientific progress that doesn't impede knowledge production. So I'm so I think that's important. Is that icpsr in addition to the seven?

13:57 The committee on the status of women and the economics profession and Cecil Webb has longitude.

14:07 How to say about 25 years that it is the longest survey of any disciplinary community on the status of women in in in that in that community and that date but somehow you got access wedding. This is often the case for sea swept and yay. We also set up at icpsr and as a result of seeing a whole bunch more research that uses those data link so sit in the other things helps us to understand why it is that even Alex has remained.

15:07 Male-dominated profession while the world has changed

15:16 That's awesome. That's awesome. Quick question. Have you all approach that can be the end of status of minority groups in the economics profession at the date of that that are produced by some Gap are collected by and we actually do have that data. We have been using it just fill out the sea swept and we are asking the American Association for permission to make that data available as well. It's a different survey and it also includes all of this is so

16:10 Yeah right now, that's great. That's great that you are doing this. I want to go back to you the icpsr community species. I think that there is some unusual features of icpsr to what brought you to icpsr in the first place. Let's start there for years now, but my first my first interaction with icpsr was in the 1990s, I was an assistant professor. Am I wanted data from the US Census on

17:05 On minority entrepreneurs and the decennial census. I'm ask people questions about where they employers or employees or self-employed and also about the Democrat and their demographic characteristics. That was one of the few places. I'm starting to remember now. I used to know this I think starting in 1910 was when they asked a question, but I was so I was looking for this data and I was interested in it and and I but it was very different from the kind of work at all done work on with company records before that where you went to the company archives and created your own data set and so I was interested in a much larger sample of a company's but they're button to find information about companies that were owned by African-Americans was really hard so I can start asking you questions.

18:05 So I went to icpsr and I'm pretty sure it was Eric and do it the time with the associate director of icpsr who helped get me this data that I've been used for some things that I wrote against, you know.

18:22 That's 25 years ago and I can remember I didn't really know what icpsr was it because it was here at the building. I remember being in this room with all these tapes and books falling over and you know where this is where you went to get if you want this country. This is where you went and I didn't know what I wanted and then I didn't have much interaction at all with icpsr until

19:06 Early 2000. So at least it's a decade later. I became director of something called the Michigan census research data center. And we're making available a confidential restricted on federal statistical data to researchers and icpsr was a supporter of this even though it wasn't that icpsr had because it was Adam wasn't going to give me anybody else because of his rules about breaking confidentiality. It was but the director by the time I was very supportive of the growth of the rtc's and we decided that we would jointly promote the rtc's we would try to make make sure that that are DC jail was available to icpsr members, especially people who are in, you know, left resource institutions cuz it's mostly large.

20:05 Barely, which universities that can afford to have Senses rdcs at them and and icpsr was really committed to making sure that people other people and graduate students to earn less resources. So Myron, and I met and talked about that and talk about how to add a series of collaborations between wheeling on how to improve act and then I became director. So then what

20:58 Where was my first interaction with ICP start? My sister went to the summer program in her second year at the University of Chicago and the political science department. She loved her time in Ann Arbor say she said she called home every weekend talking about fantastic Fairy Tail, like a little child her trips to MCI the weekends greathouse the great house. He was living in and everything. She was learning that she had the full icpsr Ann Arbor experience Chicago. That was my first introduction when I started looking for data to use for my dissertation. This is one of the places that was recommended that I go to First.

21:51 So I would respect you community. What do you appreciate most about our community? You describe several aspects of it? So what do you preciate most about it? What do you think is most unique about the community itself?

22:16 So I would say the thing that is is that I like most about the ICP and our community is that it is about inclusiveness and ask and that's partly because that's so fundamental to its mission was always there their researchers was about providing access to data and access to knowledge though both the data and the summer program really are about expanding access and that's so that's what I've always been Central to the mission of the organization. That's what it was created to do. But I think that most of the people who work at icpsr on the council are always committed to expanding what that means and I think the things that kind of product that people and icpsr get the most excited about our projects that expand access in in new kinds of ways either a new data resources.

23:16 That's what they should have locked up and difficult for anybody to get an hour or more broadly available or about making the resources that we have available. We have a more accessible to people from whether their new members or you know, undergraduates or you know our students who just didn't know anything about I think most people would really like it if we could do more reaching beyond the traditional academic Community to community policymakers and people who are thinking about an enchantment to shape policy and that's always kind of little bit I think a little bit of a stretch for us because the was necessary to do that really requires on

24:15 More resources in 7 segment different resources, not that we have but that's what we always try to think about that as we're doing things though thinking about how to make our data accessible to journalists. For example

24:28 I thought about a lot of people and icpsr some books that they realized that we had. We had dated have been deposited over decades that were a surveys that have been done mostly by public health researchers on the city of flint and they be able to access these data is identifying all of those data resources and made them acceptable so that people could get to them and and it doesn't it doesn't make anybody in the doesn't make them, you know, it doesn't give them a statistics training in itself to make you feel resources in the community.

25:28 High school students who want to be possible to find them because they are, you know identify there is part of the open date of Flint repository. So I think that they could do that kind of thing and works its way into a lot of the things that we do it why you know anybody say to lumos is another example of that. We're really concerned that there might not be a priority on maintaining Federal data resources and their people make sure every month.

26:28 Is a social human need for this?

26:32 We with the expertise, you know, we can't you can't do everything but you know, how is it that we can do with the knowledge that we have?

26:44 I think I'm actually it's really it's really clear. It's actually one of the cool things about working at icpsr. They're all his people introverts, which I am not.

27:04 But they're techies a date of nerds with a Miss but mission-driven passion. They want to they want to serve and I think people to think about how people want to do Services people who are out there being so freaking something in these are these are not their personality is different from that. They're still use them in a way that is that serves others, and that just makes going to work more fun.

27:33 So, you know that was going to be my next question to there are so many data and so many data sets and is a lot of technology that you guys used.

27:45 What inspires you everyday on your job? Is you everyday?

27:54 Well, I suppose, you know, the Triggers on a day-to-day basis. It's

28:02 It's because you have those those big goals of big ideal, but on a day-to-day basis a lot of it is for me the kind of the human interaction the son of empowered to do things that they care about and helping them to learn how to work together to do so and there are things like in the summer program so which

28:35 For the world who doesn't know if they're listening to this summer program in quantitative methods and usually as in the case of your sister people come to Ann Arbor and they get the stuff here. I'm over the summer and actually both of my daughters while they were in college. And you did a class and you and your graduate students, but actually it is a lifelong learning different disciplines of all the times the life course, but this this summer it's online and and so wanted it. So that's that's been a big Challenge and

29:35 I need some fireworks with challenges. We also trying to figure out how do you how we make this an opportunity? So we have expanded and we've offered we've been working with some African universities to provide reduced tuition and scholarships for people from Africa to study in the summer program online. That is actually much more accessible.

30:03 Financially just out of so we're trying to take advantage of that the greatest opportunities and I think so, that's kind of like what is it that motivates you everyday? What does it get you excited? It's that people are trying to think. Okay haddawy, you know, you know what the platform for the classes and how do we make sure that all the tools and then have we actually make this into something that that

30:48 Is it going to be the same as Arduino usual program, but maybe we create some other opportunities for people that we couldn't have done. Otherwise, I might think we're going to ask 2020 young women. I'm quantitative methods in political science summer program because they don't have to pay for them to travel to Ann Arbor and pay for their house this summer instead. We're going to have 20, so I'm really excited.

31:25 Awesome, awesome pivot just to give a sense of your origin story are two questions that I have first. I don't you want to be when you grew out what's the biggest leadership lesson that you can impart from your time as director?

32:03 Long time I want to be in teacher cuz I love my teachers and then I want to be involved in the women's movement and then I thought I would be a journalist and and then

32:37 And that

32:41 That was pretty much know. I actually like a plan was to be a women's Studies major and I selected a college because it had a women's Studies major as I thought I would do such a women's studies and history or women studies in Psychology or something like that. Only those were those

33:09 Didn't fit my interest and

33:18 Glitches in the early days

33:32 Alright, okay, very early days, right? Yeah, okay, but I work on with your written in history. So and I anyway and I want to study women in the French Revolution and I Am Woman On The Faculty who was doing there in the French Revolution. I got there and then she didn't get tenure so so

34:11 Economics course by accident because I didn't get into what I meant to get into is trying to get into and I'm like I actually was like, what is this do I want to do this? And then and then I liked it. It was really interesting. I'd always thought a lot about you, I never thought about it that way.

34:34 I think so.

34:51 I'm single. So I remember thinking that I would like to it. I was really enjoying my economics courses that I I didn't I didn't want to be I didn't want to be a professor. I thought I want I thought I would go and work in economic policy or something like that and then they'll not going to get to graduate school today if you get some focus on more of an academic track and but I but even then I I sir thought I was going to do macro and at the time he can Onyx and macroeconomics in particular was kind of in crisis and the leading lights.

35:30 Like my you know, my professors want me to

35:40 Mathematically that there can be involuntary unemployment anybody was ever been unemployed doesn't know that you don't like this is like an insane question and I'm not spending my life this way and and Langley how how the choices that companies make affected choices on that people have in society more generally in the path of the economic development anyway, so I cancel.

36:21 Anyways, now I became a professor cuz what he going to do, right, but

36:28 I'd like people as a side. I don't mind that I'm not I don't I don't not teaching at all anymore. I haven't been I was still the first year. I was at night. I felt terrible the whole time cuz I was neglecting.

36:58 I know my neck and I feel like I am both learning every single day and a team of people that are creating things together, and it's are not high in terms of

37:17 Helping to build young individuals and you know that you know, it's different if it's it's different, but it's similar.

37:30 Right, right, right. I mean turdly with icpsr you setting people on a new or different intellectual trajectory. So I think that this is definitely something that has come full circle and your experience. It seems like I want to make sure we get to this last question about leadership wants a big leadership lesson that you can import from your time at icpsr.

37:58 As we don't get lessons in leadership from economics. That way we don't retweet this out like unless you're at the fed or someplace like that at least in Academia. I mean regularized in other places like the Federal Reserve System. We don't have them. So I'm genuinely curious about the lessons you've learned and that you could impart to people who are listening.

38:25 I was able to mine is to listen to people that might not

38:36 What are the

38:41 One of the Ways to Be an Effective leader and to have fun being a leader is to listen to other people you learn things. You actually make better decisions and you and and you so

39:02 Cogitate in worries over things a lot. I have to making myself step back and listen and pay attention to other people as you know, what they think it's something that I have to remind myself to do but it but if it makes you throw up and makes you more effective and and and much and you learn things you do you get perspectives and that's really important.

39:31 I was saying is I think one of the chief lessons I've learned his than academic liter to absolutely can't do it alone. Nothing.

39:44 Okay magazine, I think we've come to the end of our time thank you so much. Well, thank you. Thank you for leading icpsr Council. It's really it's really it's really fun to work with you in that role.

40:06 Add savings tree with you. I'm learning so much every day. Every beating is a new adventure and I can see how others intellectual trajectories are being pushed and changed. So we really appreciate you work you do there.

40:23 Thank you.