Liz Delany and Stephanie Appleby

[00:02] LIZ DELANY: Hi, I'm Liz Delany I'm 58. It's Friday, April 22, 2022, and I am in Springfield, Missouri, and I'm with my dear friend, Stephanie Appleby.

[00:16] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: Hello, I'm Stephanie Appleby. I'm 47 years old. It's Friday, April 22, 2022, and I am in the Ozarks, Springfield, Missouri. And I am with my bestie, Liz Delany

[00:30] LIZ DELANY: You know what I love about our relationship, Stephanie? What is that? And I don't know, maybe it has something to do with the fact that you're a scorpio and I'm a cancer. I know that sounds like really, really, you know, flower girly, but we pretend to be so tough on the outside. We both wear this thick shell, like a crab or a scorpio would wear, or a scorpion. And we don't let very many people get through that shelf. And we take a lot. We take a lot on both of us, but we've got a limit. And when you get us in a corner, that's when we come out stinging and snapping. And I think that's why I relate to you so well, because I watch other people come at you, and you have to put on this big, tough, you know, outer shell. And I know sometimes underneath, it's really killing you. It's breaking you.

[01:27] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: Yeah. I feel the same way about you, but I think we should talk about why we're that way.

[01:31] LIZ DELANY: Yeah.

[01:32] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: Because I think a lot of people do not know why we're that way.

[01:36] LIZ DELANY: And it started a long time ago.

[01:37] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: It started when we were kids, when we didn't even know each other, which is interesting. So I think, for me, growing up in a family where mental illness was very prevalent, but no one talked about it was the first mistake. That was the first mistake because they should have talked about it, because right then and there, I realized it was a dirty secret and it was something that you're not supposed to talk about. Then I think identifying for myself that, wow, I'm super different. I acknowledge that I have these feelings and these thoughts. I better not talk about it then made me start to internalize every single thing that I heard, saw, whatever, when it came to deal with a mental illness. So I felt like it was a dirty secret. So with your childhood, though, I know it was a little bit similar.

[02:26] LIZ DELANY: Well, similar, but different. It was weird. Both my parents were born in the depression, so, you know, they were raised so much differently than I was. I mean, I. You know, they just had old fashioned values and old fashioned views, and in their view, mental disorders or mental illness didn't even exist. If. If I was ever having a problem, it was always, get over it. You've got way too much to be happy for. Think about the kids over in, you know, you guy or whatever. They would always give me them someplace across the world where I didn't know where it was. And they'd say, think about those kids. And so I felt guilty about my depression. I couldn't tell my parents. I didn't want to tell any of my friends. And I really didn't honestly know that it was a mental illness. I thought for the longest time that every other girl my age felt the way I do, that every other girl my age was coming home after school and laying down on the floor in her bedroom and bawling her eyes out.

[03:34] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: But you know what's so interesting about that is even though we had different backgrounds and kind of how we were raised is that pain was universal.

[03:43] LIZ DELANY: Absolutely.

[03:43] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: So that's what I mean, like, yeah, that never. That's something that I realized later on in life because I had five suicides in my family. So at some point through my illness, I intercepted a letter from my great grandmother when she was in the asylum, what they called it back then, right? And she was, had written a letter to her kids talking about how sick she was and how she didn't want to live anymore and all of these things. And I'm like, oh, my gosh. Wow, that's like, how many decades later? And I feel that way. So that, that pain, it doesn't know any time, timeframe or decade or whatever. I mean, it was just universal. And it was two weeks after that letter was written that she hung herself. And so, you know, who knows what was going on in her mind at that time, if she was preparing for that or she was obviously getting those feelings out before she decided to take her life. And so what I know now, after my suicide attempt, is that's a way to tell people, hey, I don't want to die. I just want the pain to stop. And I realized that when I went through my own illness. But anyways, back to what you were talking about. I mean, I know that both of us, when we were kids, internally felt that way. So then I think that our environment and things that happened after that then shaped who we are now.

[05:06] LIZ DELANY: I agree. I was adopted, so I didn't know what came from biology and what came from environment. And I wasn't diagnosed with major depressive disorder until I was in my thirties. So I spent a lot of years struggling, faking it, lying making excuses, you know, and depression is so weird because it can absolutely paralyze you where you don't even want to see your dearest friends.

[05:44] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: Right.

[05:45] LIZ DELANY: And I think about all the time that I missed out on, but now, looking back, I'm just so thankful that I was finally diagnosed and I got treatment. I'm in recovery. Life is so much better now, and I just want everybody's life to be better.

[06:06] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: Yeah. And I think that people think that mental illness, and like you said, the lying and all the excuses is a character flaw, which it's not. That's our defense mechanism, so that we don't. It's a coping skill, essentially, because we don't want to have to get out of the house and take a shower because it's physically debilitating. And I don't think people realize that. So, you know, when I got sick, and I know you know a lot of my story, but just, you know, when I started getting sick and then it manifested to where I would have panic attacks, and then I started avoiding certain things. So if I had a panic attack at the stoplight, I would avoid that stoplight. If I had a panic attack at Walmart, I would avoid Walmart to where my entire world shrank, to where I was homebound for 14 years, could not leave my house at all for 14 years. So I developed this relationship with my grandfather, who, his mother was the one that took her life. His father took his life, and his brother took his life. He lived with bipolar.

[07:06] LIZ DELANY: No. At the time that. No, it was hereditary.

[07:08] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: I did not know that because my family didn't talk about it, which did a complete disservice to me.

[07:13] LIZ DELANY: Right.

[07:13] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: So when I got sick, me being homebound and him being at home, because he was still living with his mental illness, I mean, he used to have to go and get shock therapy treatments when I was a kid, and when he'd come back, he had a buzz haircut. And I always thought, oh, my gosh, did they shock his hair off? But it was just a coincidence. But again, I mean, had I have known what that was, I would have been so afraid of it. So then when we started talking and everything, you know, he. He started telling me about all of the family history and how all of these people have lived with this, and it. Oh, my gosh. I felt like I wasn't alone. I felt like I wasn't crazy. I thought, oh, my gosh. Okay, this is like cancer or diabetes. Why are we not talking about it like this? I mean, I knew my grandma died from colon cancer. I didn't know my great grandma hung herself until years later. So, anyways, so when we would talk, I mean, all day long. Cause, you know, I was homebound, so I had nothing to do. My kids were off at school. My husband was taking on everything, and we would just talk and talk and talk. And he said to me one day, make a promise to me. Make a promise that you will change the face of mental health. Because people looked at me and did not want to deal with me. Your mother would wrap herself up in the drapes when I would come home because she was scared of me, and I don't want people to be afraid of it anymore. So I made a promise to him. That was my mission. And, you know, people that live with mental illness, we're very strong willed because we have so much to deal with.

[08:39] LIZ DELANY: Stubborn.

[08:39] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: Yeah, we have very, so much to deal with. And those intrusive thoughts. So when we have a goal, you know, we're gonna make it happen.

[08:47] LIZ DELANY: Yeah.

[08:48] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: So anyways, yeah. So then, obviously, I got to a point where I was so ill that I attempted suicide and survived that and realized at that point that I needed to make a change, and I was gonna die trying or I was gonna die from my illness. And people like us, like you say, you know, like we said, is very strong willed, and I wanted to go out swinging.

[09:12] LIZ DELANY: I love that. And, you know, you and I became so close when you started at the National alliance for mental Illness, but I love that you turned your entire story into a purpose, but you did, too. Well, I agree. But, you know, so many times, not all of us make it through. You know, you and I are one of the lucky ones.

[09:34] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: Yes, we are.

[09:36] LIZ DELANY: And, you know, you sort of hit on something, the conversations that we're having with our children. And I was lucky enough, my son, who inherited my depression, I was open with him about it. I showed him what I had to do to manage it. I talked to him about it growing up. So when, you know, he was in his late twenties and got diagnosed, he wasn't afraid of it. He's like, oh, my mom has this, okay. You know, like you said, it's just like diabetes, and I'm tired of people treating it like it's the plague or like you're a leper or, you know, they're. It's the same. All of these illnesses are physical illnesses. Your brain is no different. It's a muscle, and it's ill. It's broken somehow, but you can fix it. You can repair it. And I think that's the point that I want everyone to know, is that I lived so many years in this quiet, you know, secret, and I just kept this secret to myself for fear that I would be labeled or pigeonholed or people would.

[10:44] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: Or get your child taken away.

[10:46] LIZ DELANY: Even that.

[10:46] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: Yes.

[10:47] LIZ DELANY: And I was afraid that people would see through me. And so I faked it for so many years. And then when I finally came out as someone with major depressive disorder, it was so scary because I didn't know. And as you know, Stephanie, I was on the radio at the time. I'd been on the radio for, you know, 1516 years at that time. And so I had a big audience and I didn't know how they were going to respond to me. I didn't know if they were going to tuned me out from that point forward. But the amount of email and phone calls that I got after I revealed that me, Liz Delany the radio personality that you've been listening to for two decades, suffers from major depressive disorders. And sometimes I can't get myself out of bed. That was huge to let go of that.

[11:41] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: Oh, yeah.

[11:42] LIZ DELANY: And I suddenly felt nervous, but free. I don't have to hide it anymore. When I'm having one of those days, I can tell them I'm having a mental health day.

[11:52] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: Yeah.

[11:53] LIZ DELANY: It's not a stomachache. It's not, you know, all those other things that you can make up, because that's what you do when you have a mental health day. You tell your boss, I got a cold.

[12:02] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: Yeah.

[12:03] LIZ DELANY: Because you can't tell him, I'm having a mental health day.

[12:05] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: I'm anxious.

[12:06] LIZ DELANY: But why?

[12:08] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: Well, and I know, but I think, too, that's where stigma kills. That's where people don't realize how powerful stigma and judgment is, because it will kill someone that lives with the disease that we have.

[12:20] LIZ DELANY: It keeps them quiet and they quietly kill themselves inside.

[12:24] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: I mean. Yeah. And I think so that's where I feel like my recovery part. We turned our pain into a passion, which is what brought us here now. And I think that for me, when I say I got better, it's not like, oh, I just got better. I mean, it was a lot of work. I know it was for you, it was grueling. It was exposure therapy. It was all of these things ongoing. Yes. And it's horrible in the beginning, it's scary. It's triggering all of those things. But I will say that if it weren't for those steps that we had to take to get better, we wouldn't appreciate where we are now.

[13:00] LIZ DELANY: Absolutely.

[13:01] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: If we would have just taken a pill and everything changed, neither one of us did that.

[13:05] LIZ DELANY: And I don't think we would have gotten it.

[13:07] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: No.

[13:08] LIZ DELANY: I mean, if we just. If that's all we had done.

[13:10] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: Yeah. But, I mean, I know for you it was your faith, for me, it was my face. Absolutely. Counseling, exposure therapy. For me and the medications, all those things work together. And I think a lot of people come in with expectations, like, I'm just gonna take a pill, and why am I not getting better? That's. Cause that's not how it works.

[13:28] LIZ DELANY: It's like my diabetes. I have to manage it every day, and my depression is no different than my diabetes. I have to manage it every day.

[13:37] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: Every single day, and we will for the rest of our lives. And I think acceptance is a big part of it.

[13:40] LIZ DELANY: And I'm okay with that because I know that that's the way God made my body.

[13:44] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: Okay.

[13:45] LIZ DELANY: I'm okay with it, and everybody else needs to be okay with it, too. You know what I mean?

[13:50] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: But I think that's too another. Well, okay, just back to the basics, I guess, is, you know, you working in radio. I started at Nami as a marketing director, having no experience at all whatsoever. And working for Nami is not clinical. Right. It's peer led. So none of us are clinicians. We all have a diagnosed mental illness and are in recovery. So that's what drew me there is because I knew that's where I could make an impact, and I could also grow and learn about myself and my mental illness and what other people were struggling with. Homelessness, all types of substance abuse, all types of things. I wanted to know what made people tick and what coping skills people used, whether they were healthy or unhealthy. Why? I wanted to know why. And so then you worked. I had listened to you on the radio for years. Our husbands were friend. Were friends. And when you and I met was. Well, I don't know if this is particularly when we met, but you did a candlelight vigil for us.

[14:51] LIZ DELANY: Right?

[14:51] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: And then you became a board member.

[14:54] LIZ DELANY: Right?

[14:55] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: So I can remember going to the station and doing interviews for you and how passionate you were about it and just seeing you. You light up and sharing with your audience your experience. And I remember admiring you so much for that because so many people that are in the public eye don't talk about it.

[15:13] LIZ DELANY: Well, look how long it took me those days.

[15:15] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: Yeah, but it made you real. It made you relatable. And look at all the lives that you potentially could have saved, but it doesn't matter. That was, and I will say this because we both have so much faith. I feel like that was God still working on you and through you. You know what I mean? So when you finally came out and talked about it, I mean, it was that struggle that you dealt with in keeping it quiet that made other people feel like, oh, my gosh, I've done the same thing, too, and now I can come out.

[15:41] LIZ DELANY: I think that's the worst part about it, is keeping that secret.

[15:43] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: The lie.

[15:44] LIZ DELANY: It's, you know, it's so hard to constantly be watching yourself and wondering, are they gonna be able to see it in my eyes? Can they tell it on my face? Am I.

[15:56] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: Can I tell them lies? Yes. Yeah.

[15:59] LIZ DELANY: They tell I'm lying. And that's really what it was, was just one big lie. Yeah, I'm fine. I'm fine.

[16:06] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: Huh?

[16:07] LIZ DELANY: What's wrong?

[16:08] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: Yeah, I have to go home because my stomach's upset.

[16:10] LIZ DELANY: Right? Or I've got a sick dog. I got a sick dog. I gotta stay home today. You know, it's ridiculous.

[16:17] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: At least she really had a dog. Yeah, that wasn't a total, you know, all of that.

[16:22] LIZ DELANY: I think about all of the goofy little excuses that I made over the.

[16:26] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: Years, the extent that you would go to. To make other people feel comfortable because you weren't.

[16:32] LIZ DELANY: And I don't know if you were like this, because, like, I would get invited to a big party, all my friends were gonna be there. I knew it was gonna be a good time, and for some reason, my brain would not let me go.

[16:44] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: Yeah.

[16:44] LIZ DELANY: Even though I knew if I got there, I'd have fun, I couldn't get there.

[16:49] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: I know, I get that.

[16:51] LIZ DELANY: It's just so weird. It's like, you know, it just stops you from thinking logically or clearly or, you know, you just keep running this tape over and over in your head. You can't deal with this. This is too much. You just need to stay home.

[17:03] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: Yeah, I know. It's that wall that I described that you couldn't get over in your mind. You know, I knew I could go outside. I knew it was safe to go outside, but my mind wouldn't let me. It was in complete control because I knew I would have a panic attack, I'd freak out. So I just stayed in the house. It was like. I compare it to being in a snow globe. You know, I was in the snow globe and I was watching everyone else live, and I wasn't. And I think that was the turning point for me, too, when I felt better. And I tell this story a lot because it has so it's such a metaphor for what I went through. And, you know, my grandfather was a postman. He retired. And he always would say to me, put a stamp upside down on the letter when you send it to me. Cause it means I love you.

[17:45] LIZ DELANY: Aw.

[17:46] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: And so when he died of I. They called me because, you know, he lived in Kansas City. And so I had to tell him goodbye on the phone and let him go. And so that's when I had made the decision, too, that, okay, I've got to do this. I've got to do it for him. I've got to do it for me. I've got to do it for all of my ancestors that lived with this. This is a lot of pressure, but I got this. You know, I sent my mom with that stamp, and I said, please put this upside down on Grandpa's lapel and his coffin and tell him that I'm keeping our promise and that I love him. And so a lot of times, you know, still to this day, I mean, I have buttons that I had made with my grandpa's picture on a stamp, and it's upside down. So that's kind of my mantra. Or it's a reminder that I'm doing this for a reason. And I think we all need to look at the stamp upside down. You know, we all need to remember that we love each other and love each other through your pain and your heartache. And don't judge people, because you and I dealt with that a lot, I feel like.

[18:44] LIZ DELANY: And, you know, it's so hard to explain. That story made me cry, by the way.

[18:48] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: Sorry.

[18:50] LIZ DELANY: So if I had mascara rings on my face, it's cause of you. Cause it's such a wonderful story. And keep. And finding strength in his death and finding strength to carry that promise on that was God.

[19:03] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: Oh, it gave me purpose.

[19:04] LIZ DELANY: Yeah. You know, so many times I wish that I had the words to explain what it was like inside a brain of somebody's or, you know, somebody that was dealing with a mental illness, whether it be depression, bipolar, schizophrenia, whatever it is. And, you know, people have asked me, I don't get depression. What is it like? How does it feel? I don't get it. Why does it. And I don't know if you get this metaphor.

[19:36] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: Let me see.

[19:37] LIZ DELANY: But I sometimes feel like I'm standing in the middle of the mall, and it's Christmas time, so it's packed, it's crowded, shoulder to shoulder.

[19:46] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: I already know what you're gonna say.

[19:47] LIZ DELANY: And you know what story you want to get to, and you can't figure out how to get there, and the crowds are so overwhelming, and all you hear are the voices of the crowds, and you cannot put all it all together and get to the store you want to get to. Does that sound right?

[20:03] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: That sounds exactly right. But something. I was. This is where I thought you were going. But all of that sounds right. But also standing in that crowded mall and feeling completely alone.

[20:12] LIZ DELANY: Oh, God. Yeah. That goes along with it.

[20:14] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: Yeah.

[20:14] LIZ DELANY: You're completely alone in there.

[20:16] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: Yeah.

[20:16] LIZ DELANY: No one sees you.

[20:17] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: No one sees you.

[20:18] LIZ DELANY: And they're just about to trample you. Yeah.

[20:20] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: And even if you were to say to them, hey, I'm struggling. I need help. Just people looking at you funny or what's wrong with you or that judgment. Yeah. That's such a good metaphor. I mean, I really like that you're at the mall when you had that metaphor, because it's just such an.

[20:35] LIZ DELANY: You know, I think so many people get anxiety when they go to the malls or Walmart. Yeah. But I mean, just.

[20:40] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: If you can just imagine and try to navigate that.

[20:43] LIZ DELANY: Trying to navigate that. That's what I deal with every day. And fortunately, once you are in recovery and you start to get the tools in order to deal with it, it makes it so much easier. But for so long, I just. I mean, I almost hate myself for faking it for so long. Do you know what I mean?

[21:03] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: Yeah. But I think it's helpful, too, like, working with people that you are honest about what they have, too. Because if I come in one day and you say to me, hey, how are you doing this morning? I'm like, oh, I'm just so foggy headed. Like, I know you get that. I know that you know that that foggy headedness is not just me being a ding dong. No, that's okay. She's struggling this morning, and I love that I can do that and I don't have to worry about it. Or if you. You've said to me before, too, I need to go. I just can't deal with it today. I need to go home. I don't need an excuse.

[21:36] LIZ DELANY: How many times have I fallen in my office just crying, bawling my head, you know, because we both understand it. But, you know, I think if we can just keep talking about it, more people will understand it. You know, depression is the number one cause of missed work in America.

[21:56] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: I didn't know that, but I can believe that.

[21:58] LIZ DELANY: Yeah.

[21:58] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: But and I think cultivating an environment, whether it be at your office or at home or whatever, cultivating an environment where people feel safe because, I mean, after the pandemic, even people did not feel safe. And people that never had a mental illness now have them, and they're like, what do I do? We've been living with it our whole entire life. So, you know, and. But I think that that's so important because we spend so much more time with our work family than we do our home family. It seems like you have to have support. So, yes, at work it is huge. Huge. If you work for someone that, that doesn't understand, doesn't get it, that's so destructive to someone's psyche.

[22:32] LIZ DELANY: It really is. It's a lot of, it's a big burden to try to handle. And being a radio, you know, it was all about entertaining people and, you know, making a difference in the community and being Robin Williams, a strong.

[22:47] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: Yeah, you. That's you.

[22:48] LIZ DELANY: Yeah. You know, I just, I loved him, and, you know, I felt a kinship because we have the same birthday and.

[22:55] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: Because you're hilarious, I might add. People may not know that from this, but you're hilarious.

[23:00] LIZ DELANY: I'm hilarious right now. But I knew when I was watching him, the funnier he was, the sicker he was, and that's exactly the way I am. The funnier I was, the more I entertain people, the higher I got, because the sicker I was. And the only way I could mask it. Cause I didn't get drunk, I wasn't doing drugs. You know, the only way I could soothe that pain that I was having was to entertain people.

[23:27] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: Yeah. But let me challenge your thought process on this, because people will say to me that I'm funny. Maybe not as funny as you, but I like to be funny because I like to make other people feel good. If I can't make myself feel good.

[23:42] LIZ DELANY: That'S another excellent point. It made me feel better when I made somebody else feel good.

[23:47] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: Yeah. Because we didn't know how to make ourselves feel better. But if I can make you laugh and make you feel good, I'm winning because I don't want you to feel as miserable as I do, right?

[23:54] LIZ DELANY: Absolutely. Yeah.

[23:55] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: And that is why there's so much healing and helping. That's what I think, at least.

[24:01] LIZ DELANY: Oh, I agree a thousand percent.

[24:02] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: So even if you don't have a mental illness, even if you're just struggling or whatever, and you can go out and, and help somebody, I don't know, clean their house or help a homeless person or whatever. It doesn't matter. It's very healing.

[24:15] LIZ DELANY: It is very healing. I mean, I think when I came to Nami is where my healing really began. Even though I've been in recovery for about 25 years.

[24:26] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: It took it to another level.

[24:28] LIZ DELANY: Yeah, it took it to another level. There were old wounds that I needed tending to. And since leaving radio and dedicating myself to this cause, it has brought me. Well, it's made me whole again, I think.

[24:44] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: And everybody that knows you has said that you've changed.

[24:49] LIZ DELANY: Yeah.

[24:49] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: Not in a bad way, but I feel like you've evolved or not in a good way, bad way. You've just evolved. And I've watched that as your friend, because, you know, we look back at old pictures of you and I and stuff.

[25:01] LIZ DELANY: I don't recognize that person.

[25:02] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: Me neither. And I was. Well, and you weren't at the time of some of those pictures. And even now you can just tell. And I think that's just so interesting because, I mean, you can. When someone has cancer and they're going through chemo and they lose their hair, okay, then you know they're sick. Right? Or if someone has diabetes and they're losing weight or, you know, those are physical signs that you can tell. And it's different with depression, anxiety. I mean, sometimes if we haven't showered and things like that, people just think we're unkept or whatever.

[25:34] LIZ DELANY: Right?

[25:34] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: But you can tell. And I know some. Someone that lives with mental illness that knows each other. You can tell. I can go back and look at pictures, and I can exactly tell she was struggling there.

[25:43] LIZ DELANY: It's interesting, isn't it, when you know somebody that well? But it's true. Our disease, you can't see on the outside. Our illness isn't.

[25:50] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: So people don't think you're sick.

[25:52] LIZ DELANY: So people don't think you're sick or you're making it up, or it's something that you should just get over. And, you know, so many people just. Can. They just get over it. But there's something in our brains that is chemically imbalanced. You know, there's parts of it that just. The synapses aren't firing the way they should. And so that's where therapy, medication, counseling, and just talking to everybody about how you're feeling, you know, that's the thing that has been even more freeing to me, is now going back to my friends and saying, look, for a lot of years, I was lying to you and telling you that I was okay, but I'm going to tell you right now, I deal with MDD every day of my life, and sometimes I'm really hurting. And those friends that are really dear to you are going to say, please pick up this. Call me next time. Please do that. Because I don't want you to go through that. They don't. But you have to get to the point where you can be honest enough to tell them. And that's a really big step, too, to go to your friends and say, all right, here's the honest to God's truth. You know how I cancel on you a lot at the last minute, or, you know, I make excuses not to do things? Well, that's because of my depression. And I'm sorry if I hurt you, but. But this is what's happening to me. And, you know, nine times out of ten, like I said, if they're dear friends of yours, they're gonna say, next time, call me.

[27:20] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: Yeah.

[27:20] LIZ DELANY: Don't go through this alone.

[27:22] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: It's all about the casserole. Do you know what that means? No, let me tell you.

[27:25] LIZ DELANY: Let me tell you.

[27:26] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: I'm gonna tell you what it means. It's all about the casserole. This is something I made up, because when my aunt had cancer, everyone brought over a casserole, cards, balloons, whatever, to cheer her up. You know, they didn't say, hey, what do you need? They just brought a casserole. Okay, so when I was sick, first of all, I didn't get a casserole. I didn't get a casserole.

[27:49] LIZ DELANY: Nobody brought you a dang jar.

[27:50] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: I didn't get a card. I didn't even get a casserole. But I think that just speaks to how people empathize with a physical illness as opposed to a mental.

[28:03] LIZ DELANY: Yes.

[28:03] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: So I don't want to give you a casserole, because I don't want to encourage you to go on like this. You need to tie the bootstraps up and go on and go on with your life. I don't want to enable you by bringing you that casserole and thinking that I condone what you're going through right now because you're doing it on purpose. So to me, it's about the casserole. When you're looking up to other people to say, I don't. When you're depressed and you're sick, I don't want someone to say, what do you need? I don't know what I need.

[28:33] LIZ DELANY: Right.

[28:34] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: How about you just come over and be there? You know? So I think that's another important thing to remember when you're dealing with a friend or a loved. Loved one that's dealing with a mental illness. Don't ask, just do. What would you do if they had cancer?

[28:47] LIZ DELANY: And the other thing is, you don't have to have any answers.

[28:50] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: No, I didn't want answers.

[28:52] LIZ DELANY: No. So many times I just needed someone to be there.

[28:57] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: Yeah.

[28:57] LIZ DELANY: There was no word spoken. There was no conversation. There was obviously no casserole.

[29:02] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: Yeah, right. See what I'm saying? I'll make you one.

[29:05] LIZ DELANY: Yeah, thanks. I mean, but, yeah, that's exactly right. You show up. Just show up. You don't have to know anything. All you have to do is empathize, sympathize, and then we'll go on about our day.

[29:19] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: And you know what? There's probably times that I know for you because you are a private person, even though you're on radio. You were on radio.

[29:27] LIZ DELANY: Yeah, but my personal life was very private. Yeah.

[29:30] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: There were times where I probably wouldn't want someone just to show up. I probably wouldn't have answered the door.

[29:35] LIZ DELANY: Yeah.

[29:36] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: But I would know from that person making the effort I could call on them.

[29:39] LIZ DELANY: I secluded myself a lot because after, you know, well, when you. You know, you do a show every single morning, you're talking, constantly interacting with people, and then I go and do my other work, whatever it might have been. Yeah. Getting home and shutting it off was, you know, what I enjoyed. You know, the radio business is just constantly bam, bam, bam. It's always moving and there's always noise. So when I got home after the show or after work that day, the quiet would be what I needed just to kind of get all of that, you know, I mean, like, the show's over. Let's just be quiet for a minute. And then, you know, after a period of time, you start to think, okay, uh oh, now I'm alone with my thoughts, which.

[30:32] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: Idle time is dangerous, but let's talk about this now, because this is something that. Because that bothers me is now both of us are public figures. We're in the public eye. And I went through a recent traumatic event that you know about.

[30:45] LIZ DELANY: Right.

[30:46] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: And I got sick. I started to get sick again with my mental illness. So now I've got this pressure on that I'm an advocate for mental health, that I do all of these things now, just like you. And what if I get sick again?

[31:02] LIZ DELANY: Right?

[31:02] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: What if I get sick again?

[31:04] LIZ DELANY: You don't let anybody down.

[31:05] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: Yes. Because now you've worked so hard to get to where you're at. But you still live with this. And so it's. That's very triggering. That's a lot of pressure. And I think a lot of people put that pressure on you now because they're like, well, you made it through all that. You can make it through this.

[31:22] LIZ DELANY: Right?

[31:22] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: You know? Well, how the heck do you know? Yeah. So I think that's something that now, you know, just. Just saying that life isn't perfect after recovery.

[31:31] LIZ DELANY: Oh, no. And anybody. I mean, life isn't perfect, period, for anybody, whether they have a healthy mind and body or not. But, you know, the point is that, like I said earlier, once you get the tools, once you're in recovery long enough and you get the tools, at least you can get yourself through it. But it's just like, miss. It's gonna flare up.

[31:51] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: Yeah. That's so true. That's a good way to say it. And I. I think a good coping skill is grace.

[31:56] LIZ DELANY: Yeah. Give yourself a break.

[31:58] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: Not even you showing yourself grace, but other people showing grace without judgment, let me add. Because all types of people can say they're showing you grace, but then they're.

[32:10] LIZ DELANY: Going over to this person saying, God, she's crazy.

[32:12] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: Yeah. So I think walking the walk, we've had a lot of. It's not acronyms, is it? What's that called? Metaphors.

[32:21] LIZ DELANY: Metaphors. Metaphors.

[32:21] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: In this conversation, you know, you want to review casseroles, stamp mall.

[32:30] LIZ DELANY: Yeah. You know, this is what I really want to happen in every coffee shop across the country.

[32:37] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: Yeah.

[32:37] LIZ DELANY: I want women and men to sit down and start having conversations about their mental health and how they're coping. Because you can find laughter in the stupid things you do.

[32:49] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: Yeah.

[32:50] LIZ DELANY: You and I have found a way to laugh about our illness and be okay with it.

[32:57] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: And we cry about it, too, though.

[32:58] LIZ DELANY: Well, yes, but the point is, if we can be okay with it, then you can be okay with it. General public. Do you know what I mean? General public. If I can make a statement to the general public. Crazy isn't contagious, is number one. And two, I'm okay with my mental health. You need to be okay with it, too.

[33:20] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: And finding that person that you're in the mall with that hears you, sees.

[33:26] LIZ DELANY: You, grabs your hand, and gets you out of there.

[33:29] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: Yeah. That's. I think the most important thing is just. Is surrounding yourself with people that maybe don't get it. I mean, I have migraines. I have friends that don't have migraines. And they've said to me before, oh, my gosh. I've never had a migraine before, but I can only imagine what that's like. Those are your tribe. Those are the people you want in your corner that. That want to understand.

[33:49] LIZ DELANY: Yeah.

[33:50] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: You know what I mean? That want to get it. And so I think it's. It's difficult sometimes to explain something to someone who doesn't know. Just like my male gynecologist, who has no idea what a period like, oh, boy. You know what I'm saying?

[34:01] LIZ DELANY: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Try to describe that.

[34:03] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: Yeah. But he sympathizes and he acknowledges, but he's never lived it, so that's. That's different. Having the lived experience takes it to another level, I think.

[34:12] LIZ DELANY: I do, too. I agree. And hopefully, if you and I and others like us just continue to talk about it, everybody's going to get the picture that it's not anything to be afraid of. You don't have to lock me away. I'm in recovery and I can still live a full, fulfilling life with my illness.

[34:35] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: Yeah. But, you know, the medical, the medical side of it, too, is still very primitive. I think we have a long way to go for that.

[34:42] LIZ DELANY: We do, but we've come a long way.

[34:44] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: We have. But it's still not about what it.

[34:45] LIZ DELANY: Was 1015 years ago. People were still whispering about mental illness. And now I think, you know, you see these sports figures coming forward or the celebrities.

[34:59] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: Yeah, celebrity.

[35:00] LIZ DELANY: Yeah. Mayim Bialik, who's going to be a guest speaker at the NAMi convention, she deals with major depressive disorder all the time. And the more people that come forward and say, hey, that's me, too, the more, the easier it's going to get to talk about and not feel. Not feel like you're going to be judged immediately.

[35:24] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: Well, it's just like talking about sex in school to kids.

[35:27] LIZ DELANY: Right.

[35:28] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: You know what I mean? It's not going to make someone go have sex. You're teaching them how to have safe sex. Let's talk about mental illness in schools while you're young. It's not going to make someone kill themselves. It's not going to make someone say, oh, I have a mental illness. We're giving them the tools and opening the conversation. So, I mean, I think it's all how we approach things.

[35:48] LIZ DELANY: You know, in science, they teach you about every part of the body except the brain.

[35:53] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: I know.

[35:54] LIZ DELANY: And how it works. And my goal, my dream would be to get that kind of education in all of our schools.

[36:02] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: Yeah. I think it starts young. It starts young when you're going through all those emotions and puberty and all of that, and you need to differentiate what's normal and what's maybe something that's affecting your everyday life, but, yeah, I mean, I think. Good point.

[36:16] LIZ DELANY: You know what? I'm so glad to have you.

[36:18] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: I'm glad to have you, too.

[36:19] LIZ DELANY: Love you, Stephanie.

[36:20] STEPHANIE APPLEBY: I love you. You. I love you more.