David Kline, Barbara Kline, and Avram Kline

00:03 It's so November November 29th 2008. My name is Autumn Klein and I am interviewing my father Rabbi David Lewis Klein and my mother Barbara Jane Cline is in the booth and I will interview her separately, but I'm hoping she will intervene every once in awhile for accuracy and to enrich and Anna Kotor 2.

00:30 Okay, fine.

00:32 I'm ready.

00:36 Oh, I'm sorry. I Am David L Klein father of a rum Eliza and Shira husband of Barbara. I am I I retired Rabbi my last hope it was Monroe, Louisiana before that Colorado Springs before that, Philadelphia before that, New York City.

01:02 I just wanted to start and we have about 40 minutes. I'm just curious to know 1939.

01:11 Now you're bored 20 days know I was born at 35 and 35. I beg your pardon see were born. You are six-years-old know you were about four years old at the end with the outbreak of World War. I have vague Recollections of living in Port Arthur, Texas and somebody pointed out a a a a steamship going through a canal at Port Arthur with a swastika on it. So this was before the outbreak of World War 1 and World War II and we were already living we had moved to Port Arthur in 3039. I believe it was and that's my earliest memories. I remember the canal and I think I remember the other ship going through that canal.

02:07 We were in Port Arthur for the first few years of the war, but I don't have very much of a memory except rationing which began somewhere in the early forties request your father Budapest, right? And he must have had had a he must have been very aware of what was going on. I'm not so sure how aware anyone was what was going on in Europe in the early days of the war. I know that he had he was well aware of who from 38 and my uncle Eugene his brother had been a lawyer in Prague and they brought him out there just before they they they they they that Gates closed just about and and Czechoslovakia and that end late.

03:07 Later on in 38. He was aware that that anti-Semitism in this matter of fact, he was anti-Semitism that drove him out of Hungarian Hungary in 1920. When did your father he arrived here in 1920 and he in Mississippi? No, no, no he arrived and he came to a to a relative in Pittsburgh in in

03:37 A suburb of Pittsburgh Name Escapes me at the moment and he worked at as a translator in a bank for several years and then he was inspired to complete his studies to be a rabbi and he became a rabbi in Cincinnati. He went to the University of Cincinnati and Hebrew Union College in a 7 year. Was ordained the 1933. How did he meet you or your mother? He met her on a blind date conference in Philadelphia and

04:18 A woman that somehow must have been acquainted arranged the date with my mother and it was an idiot with an instant hit.

04:29 She later became the head of the

04:33 The women's group of reformers Jane Evans. I think it was not Jane Evans, but that's that's so tell me about tell me about your mother say she she was she was attacked. My mother was all but dissertation In classical studies Greek and Latin her her specialty was medieval Latin and and she was at it if University of Pennsylvania, she had a certified she was certified to teach. She said she had occasionally taught in high school English and Latin and when she met my father they were they were they that that was the end of her studies that was the end of her academic career thing to do. I have the impression that that she was going to school until she was married which is what happened and the story is that on their first date which happened in the

05:33 In the library at the University of Pennsylvania, they were in the stacks and he

05:43 Corrected her Latin. She she quoted some line. I think it was in relation to Hocus Pocus sentences it and she said well that comes from the mass. It says the Christian message that says hook s Corpus Mayo's and he said hook St. Corpus May whom this is a sort of an apocryphal story. Was it in the family and 3 days later. They had another date also in the stacks there and apparently he attempted to kiss her and she said I am saving my kisses for the man. I marry and he said I want to be that man and that was it they say where they were married about a month later. He was a man of action and what were they like his parents?

06:35 His parents your

06:39 Well, you know what they were they were a couple who had an education which I always admired is there was no way in the world. I was going to catch up with either of them and education in but in my opinion between the two of them, they encompassed all of World Knowledge, right? I remember it night after my second year slump in college. I was ready to drop out of out of college and and study with that between the two of them. But the two of them and I have a serious I packed up all my gear from a from a from Brandeis University and shifted home and instead of leaving. It's in storage. I was ready to drop out of college at there after my sophomore year. I was I was I wanted to get a good education and I was sure that I was not getting it.

07:38 The my father had my father's education was a classic European give nausea medication with Greek and Latin. We're just part of the of the ordinary menu and end and hid in addition. He knew all kinds of languages. He was he was adapting and philosophy and history of course art, which was his his lifelong application my mother. My mother was a new not only Greek and Latin literature, but poetry and modern poetry and she was all through my life. She was the good is the biggest reader. I've never met anybody who read more books except Barbara my wife.

08:22 It sounds like you revered your put your education. I never I never was able. I never succeeded in and getting good enough grades to meet their standards. I never I don't think I ever really.

08:44 Satisfied either of them that way

08:52 My father was sort of distant. My mother was much closer. I at any serious talks. I mostly had with my mother occasionally. I would be in a situation where I could have some philosophical discussion with My Father. I remember when I was when I'd already committed and then decided to go on to the Hebrew Union College. He did spend some serious quality time with me studying Hebrew. He was also good at Hebrew. He spoke Hebrew and his in his year and in the in the thirties not very many rabbis Master Hebrew very well that the Hebrew Union College crew, but he he was good at it a German Yiddish Hebrew Yiddish, not very well because that was not part of his background. He was from hungry. But but Hungarian,

09:51 Panda and Italian and French and German and of course you could read Greek and Latin.

10:03 It was a and he had a ahead for history. He he could he would he was studious about the pronunciation of it in his art lectures. He would he would see what the like people with his pronunciations. I'm assuming they were all correct. I don't know but he would rattle off the names of countries and their Capitals in their battles and the Kings and the and the artists of course, Clarksdale, Mississippi.

10:37 Barksdale we moved there in 47. I first experienced in Clarksdale.

10:46 Live in a big white house

10:50 I bet that was really for me. It was very luxurious going to school. I had been living in New York City going to PS 161 for about a year and every day we as students were required male students were required to wear a necktie and on Wednesdays, which was assembly day. You had to wear a white shirt with a necktie you had to wear a tie unless you were wearing a shirt without a collar so I could t-shirt but the baby you were at where they wore a t-shirt in those days. So I showed up to school the first day with a white shirt and a tie a necktie and I was just about laughed off the campus in the sixth grade and the began calling me a damn Yankee.

11:41 Having grown up in Texas mostly

11:47 I just didn't understand the concept of them calling me a Yankee and it's true. I lived in New York for a year. And it's true. I didn't have a Texas accent at my sister and I my sister Susie being a about two and a half years younger than a we decided that we were going to learn to speak Southern and we both tried it.

12:14 I gave it up as as is impossible to really affected but my sister really got into it and to this day she speaks the way she learn to speak in, Mississippi in 1947. I was I was I was 11 or 12 and she was at 10 and she mastered it. I didn't say I was eventually called chow chow in in the in the in the school because my hair my unruly hair at what else about Clark's.

12:53 Clarksdale when I became a teenager, I got a job at working in a dry-goods store out Clarksdale. This is this is a day some legal segregation. The car still was sick that that had a total population about 16,000 half white and half black and

13:14 Different schools different everything you you're hardly had contact with the black population. You knew they were there of course and they were the backbone of the eighth of the the economy Pharmacy everything and they were the customers of the Jewish Merchants the Jewish merchants in those days. I think the conversation was probably two-thirds made up of merchants. They could not establish themselves. I store is H&M clothing store in the white neighborhood that took a lot more money and lot more political Cloud. But the main the main street in the black neighborhood was called Issaqueena Boulevard.

14:06 And every store on that street including the including the movie theater.

14:14 I think they what was owned by by Jews and I worked in one of those that's where all of the the the Jewish kids worked on Saturday afternoons. And we would work we would go to work and maybe 11:00 and and work till 10:10 p.m. Every Saturday. And that was also where I got most of my clothes and that little that little store was called May brothers. And one of the two brothers was a lawyer but he could not make a living as a lawyer has ended as a Jew and the lawyer and the in Clarksdale. So he joined his other his brother and they they had that ran what we called a dry goods or a dry good store was.

15:03 Had clothes shoes, not Hardware, but that would be closing all kinds of clothing and I sold all kinds of clothing app.

15:19 Every every Saturday Clarksdale high school was night night night. Best thing in Clarksdale high school was the band. I was played flute and I really loved and then practice I love marching. I love to playing in football games. I love the concerts. And that was that was terrific. Is there anything you can add about? It sounds to me like you grew up in it and in a climate of segregation and Jim Crow and semitism is well, I could tell a story about it in the in the

16:01 The dry goods store. We have what they call those ladies shoes and men's shoes and ladies at one time. There was a customer had a customer and I was looking for a certain size and it didn't end so I asked the owner one of the one of the two, it may brothers and I said this lady is looking for Rob this shoe inside such an I couldn't find it and so he made it he went and found it and afterwards he told me he said David we we we call the customers girls. We don't call them ladies.

16:47 That made quite an impression.

16:51 It did not occur to me.

16:54 At the time that I was participating in in the in the system which enforce desegregation

17:06 One time we had a for company. I used to go home. I know where I work down there on Saturday. I would it was only at maybe a mile or so to my house and I would walk back for dinner and walk back to work and my father had my folks had company of that local Catholic Minister a priest. I was there and in those days and we're talking in about in the forties and they and in the late 40s and early 50s. The Catholic church was way ahead of the rest of everybody and terms of sympathy towards integration, which was a fairly radical thing and this priest.

17:50 Nae Nae sort of a jocular way spoke to me. It says I'll you are you are participating in the oppression of my people and I really didn't know what he was talking about. That was a

18:08 And I just was not part of my thinking at that that had no no. No should I knew about segregation on news about the that was just

18:20 It was in Mississippi in those times. It did seem to me that the natural order of the world. It was not the it was if it was unfair.

18:33 It seemed to be a natural and peaceful.

18:40 And generally accepted way it in there was no there was no threat and in Walking for example at 8 a.m. White person could walk to the black neighborhood anytime of the dead end up without any any threat of angry mobs or individuals or anybody. That was if there was any anger. You just weren't aware of at least I wasn't

19:10 Okay. So let's go to Brandeis. You were one of the first students at Brandeis what school did around for about five years? Yes, five years of the fifth graduating class. I got there in 57 + 50 + 57 + 53

19:27 I had I had applied to the University of Chicago. That was my that was my favorite kind of school. I thought that would be a great place to go. I like I love the idea of a great book series because I was I was at I was a big book reader that was one of the things that my mother got me into when it when I was in in in in Clarksdale did a lot of reading. I was not particularly sociable in the in the in the school by the lot of reading so an idea of making a college career out of reading book sounded great Brandeis was I was with a new place a new thing on the scene it and I totally Jewish environment which really a radical departure for me.

20:14 And my father seem to like the idea and furthermore. He had a an acquaintance in Memphis who was a donor to Brandeis. I'm not sure what what his connection was, but it was with this person in Memphis that I interviewed.

20:33 To go to go to Brandeis and those days you didn't go visiting campuses. I can't I never did understand why why in the in your generation we visited campuses to see where you going to go to college, but that's what we did. So I interviewed and I got a I got a problem is through this individuals influence. I got enough of a scholarship to go this guy that tuition was six or seven hundred dollars a year.

21:10 I think I got a full tuition scholarship so that it was.

21:18 The date the might night in Mississippi, but it's students were not going rarely left the South to go to college mostly went to Vanderbilt or

21:31 Or did he die? That was most popular. What did your sister go sister went to bed for two years. She went to the Sophie Newcomb in New Orleans at the end of two years later. She transferred to the University of Illinois. She was in a sorority.

21:50 Zionism 1948. Well actually in time when you were in and Brandeis 48, I was barely aware I can remember.

22:05 Actually it by my earliest memories of anything Zionist what it Where in in when we lived in El Paso. This is during World during the war.

22:16 Some distant relative

22:21 I bet that works hours of her friend of a relative or something like that passed through town and and and we we and we sang songs and I may have seen somebody do a Hora that was that was probably in the in the forties when I was at at Brandeis. I began getting involved with Hillel and

22:50 Israeli Israeli dance and song became an interest of mine at the end of my second year when I was set before ready to drop out of Brandeis the option had a possibility of going and spending a year at the Hebrew University opened up this was and so I remember on pesach calling home.

23:23 And at the end of the f t at the end of the Shader that you always say Hashanah have Bobby Boucher lying and I that's what I said on the phone to my parents. I said next year. I'll be in Jerusalem and that was my announcement to them. They were rather shocked but happy I think I had decided to do that. Can you talk about that year? I think that is the best year of my education that far at 8. It's one thing. It's what turn me around. It was the

23:58 In Israel in 1955 and 56. That was the year. I was there there was a sense of purpose and idealism.

24:09 That was palpable. That was there was a everybody refer to each other as Xavier which effect like saying comrade their identity that there was no obvious difference between wearing a suit or not wearing a suit, they were they were there was some Jews of German extraction the yuccas and they always wear suits and neckties but apart from them everybody else work, khakis and and carried their books to school and into that that carry the books in an old army surplus gas mask bag or something like that.

24:53 And you wore sandals and it was I was I fit right in on that and people had a sense of

25:06 Purpose in their existence at the University. I mean I have been did two years at at at at at at at Brandeis and working hard and everybody is setting to make grades and that just did not impress me. Why are you studying to make good grades? What other the grade somehow or other? I have value know it in mind cook you wanted to get you wanted to accomplish something you wanted to wanted to build something or do something to write somebody to do something and the world I understand at least it's it to understand what the world is all about how they were only interested in great. So at the Brandeis everybody at at at the Hebrew University people were determined to do their part to build the state to build Society take the ad.

25:56 Add value and that was why they were studying this or studying that they wanted to they had to master some field in order to contribute something. That was exciting. That's real. That's when I I got really began to be interested in in Bible.

26:17 Hebrew I had been taken Hebrew at Brandeis for 2 years and not done very well it really developed when I got to the Brandeis.

26:29 Okay, so talk talk about this decision to go to Columbia for for archaeology. When I got out of I was really not ready to plunge into into a compilation. That's what I was not smart at training was about the most of my most of my eye my class either went into the army was he were not drafted but you were expected to spend two years as a Chaplain it when they used to call tomorrow obligation. I was a pacifist at the time and I said it's an mro obligation and they they they let me out of there on the

27:13 On the condition that I go to a cabin gation, which would pay me the same amount as a as a military a chaplaincy. So I found such a place in in in New Jersey and in Somerville, New Jersey.

27:31 Sort of a semi part-time pulpit and it would allow me to at 2 to go to graduate school, which is something I wanted to do. I wanted to go to I wanted to study Bible biblical archaeology. I had the major didn't and Bible at the Hebrew Union College. I majored in. Hebrew literature at the Brandeis in my last year and that's really where I was going. So I I got into the Columbia was the only place in New York. I also I also love New York the main thing about New York in those days for me the men that the number one single attraction apart from one of the study Acadia was the 92nd Street Y where they had where Fred Burke Israeli folk dance, and I was I I just love this really folk dance and he was the number one teacher of an Israeli folk dance in the world and those days and

28:31 And there he was and I went there every every week. I never got good enough to be in his performing group. But I was a deputy. I was one of the people who went in the Inner Circle knew all those dances and kept up with them and you would dance Ever every Wednesday night. There would be a half hour of instruction follow baby. I may be 2 hours of dance and I just love that bar. You ever meet anyone that we went and I did I did I didn't sorry. You didn't meet Mom had fun didn't meet her at through through as you mean if I need Mom.

29:20 That's a great story that nothing would be better went went when you interview her. She tells it better than I do, but but it has to do with with performing together in a and I Purim shpiel at the

29:36 That that that that what will pick that up where you left off with Mom? So Glitz go back to the 6 or the 60. When did you drop out of not drop out by? When do you leave Colombia in 6666 you had it with medical degree. I had a Route 62 and I began in the fall of 63. I think it was at Columbia and immediately started taking akkadian.

30:05 And art history with Kaden was with it whether it was with with with Mendelson and Mendelson and and and our history with Edith porrada that two very good teachers lately. The akkadian was not he was interested in the sociology. I was more interested in the literature, but he was the teacher so I studied documents having to do with what we used to live on the Lower East Side and I had the whole Code of Hammurabi written out and cuneiforme on three-by-five cards on the subway ride from from Elizabeth Street up to Columbia.

30:53 Haha, I know I got through it Allen Ginsberg Allen Ginsberg showed up at my apartment building. There was a

31:07 An Indian

31:11 Poet or something rather than Vijay Chauhan who live two floors above me. This was on Lower on 212 Elizabeth Street.

31:23 It was the only Street only building on Elizabeth Street. That was that was Little Italy and I think that we were the only building where they were non Sicilians living it was a wonderful neighborhood to live in and and and not I'm not too far away of a ride down the street where they at where they they the mob was there. They was able to a very secure place to live in New York City and in the in the early sixties and Vijay happened to know Allen Ginsberg. I don't know how but Allen Ginsberg showed up there for its some party at he and his sidekick whose name was.

32:08 I can't remember but but they had a harmonium and and Ginsburg sat there and chanted and they and the other guy play date at drone the way on the harmonium and that's my memory. I didn't I don't recall him saying doing any his poems but

32:34 Hey, that was probably at the time this was this was I was I was still very new to poetry. I had I had if I had read howl or Cottage in those days.

32:52 I probably wouldn't have gotten very much out of it. Took me a long time to 2 to get into modern poetry and I did it as a slow process. The sheer determination. I'm still not very good at it. So you wouldn't consider yourself a former beat you some some real beatniks at Brandeis.

33:20 But at Brandeis I was not trying to be beating like I was trying to be normal. I was trying to be as normal as I could.

33:33 NBA

33:37 As I was fascinated by by by

33:44 By rejecting rejecting social standards. I can tell you this when I was in Israel in 55, I went to it at once I spend some time on the keyboards.

34:04 And I really liked the the kibbutz mentality a date-date the basics socialist sharing and to each according to his need I I didn't have a whole lot of needs and I was perfectly happy to to share and I think that I might have been influenced to go onto keyboards except that they were all farmers and I just didn't see any I just didn't know it was not a farmer in those days later on. I might have been but had no appeal to me Vietnam.

34:45 Vietnam I was at Columbia and in the 60s and I remember a visit to Columbia by

34:58 Jim

35:00 And his wife and daughter who were with him and daughter was very good looking and then see him it was a beginnings of the of the of the war.

35:19 It was just beginning to get get that hotter and hotter. I was beyond.

35:27 Being drafted will because I was a rabbi said that was not an issue for me. But I had become a pacifist years earlier and and I was already looking at this as a as an aspect of a total.

35:48 Waste of effort and evil process

35:55 And I got involved with a some group. It was probably it was it was it was students SDS was it was around and it was probably it was probably the same group that split often and became SDS.

36:17 One of the very first things that happened was a Democratic Society for Democratic Society and it was one of the first things they did was to have a teach-in.

36:29 And I was not an organizer with the teacher and I but I did participate and spent the teaching was withheld in the in the library and them and it was it was not sponsored by the college, but they allowed it to happen in the library and beginning at about 8 or 9 in the evening. He began having lectures from Scholars. Most of them were professors at Columbia and they showed films. I remember seeing the film that one film had to do with the Mekong River delta and lectures on economics one of the Seymour

37:17 Meld weld singer male, I think was his name was one of the outspoken that he was an economist and he spoke about

37:32 This as it as at 8 from it's a sad part of the military industrial type of stuff that they Vietnam why we eat. What was it? What was the American interest in Vietnam? What was where we attacked with? It was this was not there had to be some kind of argument and that it was entirely a spurious in my book and an n and evil to begin with my my participation in the movement was with a group that

38:07 That was responsible for making a broadside drink making a little one sheet summaries up stuff that we would read and this was not nothing secret. It was all available in in in foreign affairs quarterly. That was one of the main sources but magazines like that which were available in the library.

38:33 Contained all kinds of information in them. That was just not being written about in this paper. So we wouldn't we would put these up will you put that make make sheets with those those things and and make contact them up around campus and later on when the when the when the papers ready call them. They the

38:56 Who's that the man who who published cases in in the 70s who published the Pentagon papers came out there was virtually nothing surprising because we had been writing about this stuff like they did that did that I had been there and had just been the New York Times did not cover it. I did have a contact with a New York Times one time some demonstration me a leftist that you said I couldn't figure out why being against the war was a leftist argument 1968.

39:31 1968 we were in in New York and they somebody approached me.

39:40 From the Democratic party asking me if I wanted to be a 2 to run for election in the for the Democratic National party convention, which was a totally Preposterous idea to me, but I did and and and I was elected Edith where it did not didn't get you didn't run this Rabbi. It didn't just rather ranas David Klein and you didn't even run it as as I was being I was at McCarthy and Jenny McCarthy was the anti-war candidate. It was the time of LBJ and and vice president after Hubert Hubert Hubert Humphrey and

40:32 LBJ was I had been participating for 2 years now? We were married for three years. I've been participating in anti-war protests and and shouting about the talk about the convention.

40:55 We were in a I I was inside Barbara was was outside. She she was with me we were taken from the hotel to the convention center where we had a badge which would which was supposed to get us in and it was supposed to be Electronica badge. It turns out that it was it was a fake electronic Gadget you you ran it through a counter but several newspaper writers discovered that it was it was a fake.

41:32 Very exciting

41:36 Process which I knew nothing that were that you had these conference with a date for the in the New York delegation which had in it to Theodore bikel. A lot of really good people that I had read about it and known about that day is Rosenthal was I open up a really strong Auntie War congressman from Long Island people. I was excited to be with this minister is named Maria.

42:16 So

42:19 We would have what did you call it? A caucus caucus caucus for the New York delegation and then there would be a caucus for the McCarthy delegation most of us in the New York delegation from where my car is it from McCarthy and

42:40 It became clear that that we were getting we were not in the we were not going to get yet candidate and now only that but the peace plank.

42:53 Which was very important to us was going to be not not included and that happened on a night the next to the last night that the piece plank was voted down and we immediately began a demonstration Richardson plan with a big sheet of black crepe and the and the convention is all about demonstration. So this was a normal step demonstration that I was there at the end and

43:26 At one point, we had a pause and Theodore bikel said time to sing a song and he let a song as remember what it was and I said it's time for a prayer and from memory. I recited grant us peace. The most precious gift of them. I was just that was a horse. It was not it was not broadcast. It was supposed to been broadcast. But but the people who run the convention control the turned it off, so it wouldn't get the broadcast but we did that and the next night most of us in the McCarthy group join the protesters outside and you were arrested and we were arrested and spent the night in jail and it was there that I got a really good in an introduction is I sat next to what I wanted a real activist that you're one of the people who had dinner yet and organizer it within the party.

44:25 And I got a politics 101 introduction into into Oregon Paula at political organization. I really did not go into politics, but at least you got exposed to what it was all about.

44:45 Marykayintouch has there and this and this at the time he was able to Lutheran. He became Catholic eventually. He became became turned out it became a very conservative writer.

45:03 That thing that was that was that was 1968. I have still got some of the memorabilia from that the same thing happened in 1969.

45:16 To me yes to you.

45:19 1969 main the main thing that was my turn to the turning point of my life. His son was born like when you were born. I became I I change my the whole the whole scene in might my being around by after that point. I had done it what I would call a social action first, Rabbi and once you were born

45:43 I think oh yes here is the point here. Here's the story we have time for this story.

45:51 Just a quick story. This was at your at you are one week old.

45:57 It was your first you were born into but this was this was the next Friday night and

46:03 I had read about this. I didn't know anything about it never happened to me before I'd was not blessed with a child but I had it on the from Abraham Joshua heschel that what you do was to you that you go to your your your your child. You put your hands on his head and if it's a boy or say a blessing for girls different blessing and then is say the Priestly blessing so you were crying at the table at the dinner table in your bassinet. I picked you up held you a tie-dye level and I started this blessing and you instantly quieted down something about this blessing. I'm not sure it's the magic of the words itself or it might have been but I was scared. I've been scared about being a father and whether I could I can do

46:54 I could be the kind of father that that that that a child needed weather and even more so

47:00 Whether I could really take care of you. What did I could protect you from the from that from all that horrible stuff. That was a potential in in the world.

47:13 And where I began to say that blessing for the second time in my life. I had what I would describe as a spiritual experience. I became absolutely critically radically aware.

47:30 That there was God out there. I was not alone in trying to be your protector that somehow brother.

47:43 There was a presence it was not that you were secure or I was Secure it's as dumb as a sense of not being alone and that may have been part of it. But from that point on I began to focus on the spiritual side of the Jewish experience.

48:07 I swear thank you for a Obby. This was an exciting opportunity and and and I'm thrilled that you did it. I hate you. You honor Me by by doing this.