Adele Kurtzman and Nellie Kurtzman

Recorded March 28, 2009 Archived March 28, 2009 01:24:39
0:00 / 0:00
Id: LMN001373


Adele Kurtzman (83) talks to her daughter Nellie Kurtzman (39) about raising children, being married to Harvey Kurtzman the cartoonist, and working a wide variety of jobs.

Subject Log / Time Code

Adele’s memory from the Great Depression of men singing in the yards for pennies, which would be thrown down from the window wrapped in newspaper so they didn’t hurt the singers.
Adele was hired at Stan Lee’s comics shop as a proofreader because she had good legs, not because she was experience in proofreading
Harvey had cancer, but could still make everyone in the chemo ward laugh.
Adele trying to run a household with lots of comics staying with the family, like Terry Gilliam.
Memories of the difficulties of raising a severely autistic son.


  • Adele Kurtzman
  • Nellie Kurtzman

Recording Locations

StoryCorps Lower Manhattan Booth


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00:06 My name is Adele kurtzman. I'm 83 years old. Today's date is the

00:14 March 28th 2009. I'm in story Court in Foley square and I am the mother of Nellie and I am Nellie kurtzman. And again, it is March 28th 2009. I'm with my mother in the storycorps booth in Foley Square in New York City.

00:36 So the first thing I wanted to ask you about was your parents. What were your parents who were your parents? And what were they like cuz I never got to know them. That's right. They Isaiah you were they were long gone. My mother was Bessie. My father was Joseph.

01:00 And the thing about my parents that I want to say is we always revered my father because he would say to my mother don't hit the children, but my mother was a glue that had kept the family together. She took in boarders a million people live with us something I've never gotten over. I I love privacy because they were constant. They were the man who sell telephones would come for lunch than met the kind of guy that UPS guy. She had an open-door policy live those people live with you know, those people came for lunch the insurance salesman, you know, it was an analyst the delivery boy was analyst

01:42 But she was the glue she saw to it that we were that we were fed and we had in a one-bedroom apartment. There was a floor of us.

01:52 My two cousins their father, my aunt Minna.

01:58 And my cousin Rena, I never saw my mother and father in a bed ever. I never saw them in pajamas or nightgown. I don't know how they went to bed or where they went to bed that you really don't have any idea. No idea. I may we just took when I was little I thought when you were grown up, you never went you never had to go to bed because I certainly never saw. I mean, I I saw I don't even know if I saw the other people in bed. It just it was the way it was you how many bedrooms are in that apartment 101 bedroom. The dining area was turned into a couple of sofas and cots and that's how we existed because it was depression time, even though my dad worked.

02:45 It was never enough money, you know, and that's another thing that I remember since it was so long ago. The landlord came to collect rent and my mother piled all the furniture against the door and she said you're not coming in and we're not going out. So when I think of my ex didn't appreciate my mother then but when I think of what she did, you know, I never saw her sick. I never heard her complain.

03:15 But she she was a did she try to be a disciplinarian compared to my father who was easy, you know, is that why you revered him? He was great, you know, I mean anyone that doesn't yell at you or criticize you is when your kid, but she was the glue did she didn't hit you a little for just for doing like all kids, you know, but not not no beatings or anyting.

03:45 Just yelling a lot of yelling and what was their relationship like

03:49 She yelled and he never spoke.

03:53 She yelled and I he was quiet and he read he read a lot. He was a reader. He he had a few friends. They would meet in the park. He took us to the park. My father had a yet. I don't know if he did this with my sister. We walked over every bridge. We walked over the George Washington Bridge and then there's a bridge that connects the Bronx to Manhattan to Brooklyn Bridge any bridge that you could walk over he took he took me anyway, I don't know about my sister. So he was the stage had to replace, you know, were you close to them?

04:33 Yes, I think so. I think so as I say, we we revered my father but she was she was the one who

04:43 It was the glue. I think it was glue. So it sounds like I mean everything you've always told me it sounds like it was tough. Do you remember like the hardest? What was the hardest part of it? All like what was the lowest point?

04:57 I think we always wanted things but everyone else was in the same position in those years. So you really didn't expect anything.

05:10 My mother was a terrible sore. She would so things on the machine for us. It was pretty ghastly so they were males that.

05:22 Lot of meals rice and milk. I remember for dinner when times were tough.

05:28 But I I don't think I was aware of how bad things were because everybody was in the same boat, you know very much. So what how does I mean since you've lived through that already? How does that compare to what's going on now for you?

05:42 Or just hasn't touched me at all yet yet know it hasn't touched. No, that was those were tough times. I mean that I can remember men's singing in the backyard and you would throw panties down wrapped in newspaper.

06:03 Musicians that were people it was tough. They were African American women who sat on a remember subway station where they set looking for work on orange crates.

06:18 It was devastating. It was devastating cuz if we were bad off they were people a lot worse off than we were I mean, he always worked. I don't know how but yeah, you know and she used to say if you can't find a job go out and shovel snow shovel coal, you know, he never had to do it, but it was tough. Do you remember when when things began to change for you in terms of

06:44 Probably

06:46 After

06:49 Probably wartime things probably change during the war.

06:55 I bet that's when things changed how.

07:00 It seemed easier. I knew I was going to go to college they weren't going to pay for it. But New York state had a system of them. They will cold not when I went just before I went they were called normal schools and they were turned out School teachers and that's how I went to college. I chose a college that was far enough away from home so I couldn't come home often but close enough if I had to I would because I wanted to be free and I was a horrible teenager for that time.

07:34 My mother called the police on me once when I came home I saw police cars.

07:40 I what I was mean I was mean to my mother and that's sense cuz I thought I could do what I want when I want, you know, I was like a teenager today. What were you out doing?

07:53 Going out with boys. I didn't do anything terrible. I went out and if she said be home by 10, I would deliberately stay out till 11. I don't know why I have no idea why I behaved so badly when I hit 17, I changed I I I appreciated everything, you know, but I was I was bad. My mother used to say Still Water Runs deep whatever so, you know, how you're saying. You revered your dad, you know, they say that people look for someone like their father girl looks for a guy that's like their father. Do you feel like that was

08:34 The case for you

08:36 Well from me a sense of humor was the the biggest thing and I and I worked before I went to college at that's where I'm at your father and I went to college after what he might have been like like my daddy was quiet, you know.

08:55 And my my dad was funny in a very low-key way, you know, but your father was funny. So can you talk to me about how you met dads?

09:05 I work for I got a job as a proofreader by lying through my teeth. I couldn't even I never proof read anyting but I had a friend who could write a great resume letter and I applied for this job at timely comics.

09:22 In the in the Empire State Building

09:25 And they hired me and the guy who hired me said he couldn't care less about proof reading comic books, but I had good legs. So I'll be frank. That's why he hired me.

09:40 And I your father was a freelancer. He just come back from the Army. We had the head of the office Stanley decided that we would keep a running tally of who were the most read comics.

09:58 At the line through my teeth without proofreading. I had a sheet in front of me with all the comics that they published and I've never met your father, but I thought his work was hilarious. So I checked out and I made him the most popular. I lied. I lied to my mother. I lied to has a proofreading and I lied about the contest. So he won the contest and then when did you actually meet? He said he used to see me when it came to the office. I don't remember.

10:29 Him and then he must have called because I went out with will Elder first on a blind date and then we'll introduce me to your father to set you up or just as friends just friends, I guess, you know, and that's how it all started.

10:44 I don't know if I ever will I told him later on about the the contest but that was a close at this gets back to Stan Lee still alive. He has credits away. So where you at? All I mean is a different era is certainly in a different point of view. But were you at all concerned or what we are concerned about his line of work just cuz like I don't know what it was like well, I remember my my father said he should learn a trade because that was his generation and but he thought he had a mother who was a pain in the neck, but nevertheless a mother who encouraged him. He went to the High School of Music & Art and he went to Cooper Union and they always know this is what he wanted to do. Maybe not Comics but but are you know, he was an artist and a writer so that no I wasn't concerned at all. I didn't never never occurred to me.

11:44 And I had so many jobs. I figured he hit it on he would hit one of them sooner sooner or later, but I only got got married. I went to college first and then I forgot how many years I went and then he

12:00 We decide to get married. He had got an apartment near Columbia.

12:06 And that we just went kinetic and got married with.

12:10 Did he propose to you and I've never asked you if he proposed in a special way. He would write to me all the time as College.

12:21 And yeah, I think it was just the way it was going to be, you know, and then once he then he said I've made arrangements to get married in Greenwich by Justice of the Peace and we had two friends and my sister came up and that was it.

12:36 So we did it is is the necklace you're wearing something bad thing the one yeah, he said that to me before we were married. What does it say? It says?

12:47 Add I miss you cray cray much with lots of little drawings. You know, this is me on the other side as well or no. No, no, that's just I think so when you first got married, like was it a struggle or or he wasn't working and then he

13:09 Bill Gaines hired him to do a comic strip on venereal disease for the Army.

13:15 Although he work for Stanley freelance. They had a studio. He he Willy and Charley Stern had a studio on 29th Street. They got a little work, but until the bill gain came along and gave him that.

13:31 That job and that's when it started. You know, he did the war comics where the ones that was a Jewish Museum. You know that.

13:40 What else did he write line, line combat, but I thought his you know, his funny stuff is what?

13:49 What got me because you don't have the sense of humor. You ain't got nothing.

13:54 Did you did you participate in his work at all like to hear? Well, he would show it to me all the time. You know it was.

14:02 When he was an editor Esquire, and I forgot the other magazine.

14:09 And all these cartoons with submit cartoons and we your father and Sarah downs and I would sit and look at the cartoons and die laughing. It was a man, especially the New Yorker guys. They were they were terrific can of the ones who submitted that so I did.

14:26 I did in a way you can you can you tell me a little bit about what it was like when he got the you know, the Mad deal and what that was like for you I knew I knew was going to come to it. Eventually. I was waiting Harvey kurtzman. That's his name and one day I was pregnant with my first child. It was a long time ago. We were still living near Columbia and Bill Gaines and Al feldstein who was an editor.

14:59 A DC Comics came and Comics weren't doing well. There was that the investigation and and your father said Comics. Let's do something funny and

15:16 They toss it around and I said, okay Harvey go for it. And that's how mad started it started as a little regular size comic.

15:26 And the cover of that comic

15:30 Sulfur around $20,000. That was his artwork. That was the first mean recently. Yes. Not too. I never owned it in heart. Your father was in the he was may have been a good whatever but it wasn't a good businessman cuz he I do remember once he and Renee go see me who did Asterix.

15:53 And another guy Danny Cunningham did these children's books and the publisher never paid them Benny Cunningham and Renee go see any went up to the guy. I am grab them by the collar and said you going to pay us or else your father. Of course. I stayed home because he wasn't going to be part of that. So they got paid and he did which was the story of your father's life, but was it exciting? Like what was it like for you? I don't know if there was excitement around mad while he was actually doing it. If not for the fact it was cuz lots of letters came when he did a cover.

16:29 Of the Mona Lisa with funny teeth. I think I can't remember exactly what that cover was. He got people thought it was a religious picture. That's how smart people were they thought Mona Lisa was a religious item and it got lots of you got lots of mail and that was exciting. That was a lot of fun and then he got a job on the Dave garroway show that you don't know that that's the that was the first Today Show, he would set up things, you know, but the set up things when it was like funny things like I can't exactly describe but you know like four different holidays.

17:09 But the day he got

17:12 To the Dave garroway show at NBC Dave garroway has been carried out on a stretcher.

17:18 But but he work for a while and then it was very difficult. He'd have to get up at 3 or 4 and you know and they in the morning to get down to the studio. So he did he did have a lot of interesting things that he did, you know, and then play boy was interested in them. They wanted him to do something.

17:36 And Hefner tried to sell him stock in the company.

17:41 Course, he didn't see turn that down and everyone else who bought stock that came in a nurse.

17:49 But he did it at the things. I think he was most proud of what were it was the early mad and

17:58 Frontline combat the war stuff. He loved the war stuff, you know it cuz he did a lot of research. Remember we went to the Pentagon. He would interview veterans his heart was in it.

18:13 His heart was in the Playboy stuff at the beginning but it was Grange after a while because he did it for 25 years. So we asked how long was it good for? I don't know really but he did it and I and I kind of resent people.

18:30 Saying that he he sold, you know, he said he had Fort Wylie at three children. You came along later and one child was autistic. And that was I don't know how he maintained his that because he wasn't on the autistic. He was a kind of what this is who screamed and yelled never spoke and was very difficult, especially in the early years. We would go from place to place looking for help in those days. Nobody ever heard the word ort ism.

19:02 So he maintained his funny stuff and he left Bill Gaines because he felt the artist should have a bigger share of the profit because it began to make lots of money and a wanted Bill to

19:19 Do you divide things up but still wouldn't so he left another good good move ahead. Yeah. How did you went when he did that? How did you feel about I said go for it, whatever you want to do. I would never you know, tell somebody that he had to you. No stay for any reason so he had pretty sexy career until he got sick. I mean he know he was doing mad and then, you know Trump and help failed, but those were so exciting projects and then Playboy certainly had a lot of benefits to it. It had benefits it was

19:54 It was aggravating, but he met a lot of nice enough people and it was it was fun in a way.

20:00 And we also had a good life while he had at the beginning. I couldn't go because of Pete but he traveled a lot and he went to France. He went to England other comic conventions. He was it was sold after and then, you know, you went to a lot of those things too.

20:17 We went to Naples and San Diego and

20:21 All over the country florist, Chicago Hershey, Pennsylvania, but while he was off having this sexy career, I'm just what was it like for you at home?

20:35 It was grueling because he always used to tell the story. He had a he got it was on a plane Hefner had an airplane.

20:44 Any was on the plane and the phone rings and this is Adele Adele. I'm on this plane. It has this and it has that and I said, yeah, what else is new because I think you were an infant and I was just changing diapers probably. So what he said I'm telling my wife is great stuff and she says yeah what what are you want? It was not easy. It was not easy, but

21:13 I I don't think about it not being easy when you're in the middle of it. It's only when you look back I think on your life that you realize.

21:22 People's difficult, you know it. I mean not to get to whatever but it's like you've talked a lot about it being difficult. They were the speed years and you know, and I also feel like your temperament has changed a lot. I'd like it has yes. I used to fall apart. I fell apart. I don't know when I had this Epiphany, but maybe it's a I don't know what it is. I've decided it's not worth it. Nothing is worth getting upset over.

21:55 Or hysterical and then he was sick for a long time when he had part when he tell me he had Parkinson's I so thought I didn't know a lot about it. And then we went to the doctor who explain what Parkinson's was and

22:14 And it was okay for a while. You know, what you remember cuz you were quite Young At the beginning it wasn't that bad cuz then he got cancer. So it was a double double whammy that was the cancer thing was Dreadful cuz that was the beginning of the end and I like the two years maybe a year-and-a-half taking him to chemo three times a week and I have to say when we went to chemo it was a room with

22:43 Three or four other people

22:47 Having chemo and it got them laughing and the nurse is the people who they were special people who did the chemo. You know that everyone sat in a chair and they would say it was always a joy to see him come in because he made people laugh and a very quiet understated way. So it is it was

23:09 It's I'm sure a lot of people have gone through it. It's not easy. It's you don't have you don't have a choice. Let me put it that way. Just just hearing you talk about all this now. I'm taking like first you lived in this situation when you're like 10 people in a one-bedroom apartment. Then you got married but soon had an autistic kid, and when you dealt with that and dad was off doing whatever then

23:32 She was out of the house. I was almost at the house then Dad gets sick.

23:36 And you have to take it here him.

23:39 That's why I'll never have a dog or a cat cuz I don't want to take care of another thing. And I mean, I'd sometimes people that you should get a dog. That'll make you feel better, please no way soap for his dad that 16 years ago. And what is it? What is what would you say this phase of your life has been like and how did you spend a lot of time like agonizing over the loss or I mean, I don't remember you doing that. No, I think my van I or all my tears are dried up. I just felt so badly for him it was

24:16 He could have done so much more, you know, he was relatively and Mitten this time young. He was 68. I think it was it wasn't there and he took good care of himself.

24:30 All his life, you know the exercise d8. Well as soon as you realize there are no guarantees.

24:38 And it said in this stage in my life. Well, I'm still working.

24:46 And I have a house.

24:49 I remember when he was sick. I don't know why I just remember this.

24:54 He liked The Gardener's that we had out of, and he would point to that patch where he planted flowers. And I'd say I want my ashes buried here out and he would say now mr. Kurtzman. Let's not talk about that now and of course we did, you know, what's funny when I went to the funeral home. They give you a shopping bag and it has a name of the funeral home that I've been again in somebody else and you get get in your car with a shopping bag with somebody's ashes.

25:29 I always I was thinking the title of that movie. Is this As Good As It Gets.

25:34 I don't know. I don't know so good. You do the ask Meredith. We dug a hole in the in that garden and that's where they are cuz he was very firm about it. He said that's where I want to be buried and we did it. Have you ever thought about something like that? Yes. I have. I told him I told her that's what I want her to do and you haven't told me.

25:58 I'll tell you sometime. I'll tell you sometime. So you're still working. I'm still working. Yes. Yes. I I can't believe I did all these things because it seems to me I was always home front of the stove all those French cartoonist that came up and Terry Gilliam live with us for a couple of months in the old house and in the new house.

26:23 The new old house the old new house and the French cartoon is that came got leaving mandrica and all the others that came to stay for a while and Nikita Mandrake. It was sitting the kitchen without a shirt and a plays guitar. I said, I cannot tell you why I have to be with my psychiatrist and I'm trying to get a meal together and and Terry Gilliam would iron we had that ironing board in the kitchen, he would come down from the where you from where is so we slept in the guest room and he will be ironing on the little ironing board and that they what those were fun days in a sense, you know, it's a lot of work but it was fun. You know, they were they were were you working at a job. That's how I know. And remember when Chuck Albertson came with his two children.

27:18 And his wife cried every day because she was pregnant and he wanted her to have an abortion and she said I'm not going to do it. So every morning she woke up crying. I put her in the car and I will drive around with you Claire and Jake that was a little boy's name.

27:37 I know how to make her stop crying cuz it's been you and your 40s.

27:42 It must have been yes, cuz yeah, that's so I know you wanted to tell me about the jobs you've done and I feel like it's it's a good it's a good portrait. Well, I deliver telegrams for Western Union for one day and I realized it was no future. I was quite young then I pick strawberries on a farm that was living hell. I couldn't I couldn't straighten up at the end of the day while everybody was coming down the road with strawberries. I was still working my way up cuz that wasn't my that's not meant for me. Then I worked in a ham backpack ring. I work for Thomas publishing which was the most boring job that a person could ever have and I would put a book in the desk and I was caught but they didn't fire me.

28:30 Then I work for the government that lasted a week was a good money then but all I did was stamp papers. I said that and a guy blew a whistle at 12 you go to lunch that wasn't for me either.

28:42 Then I worked in the credit department of Sears with an anti-semitic woman. That was so unbelievable that everyone used to say and then I work at Montgomery Ward as a packer of clothes. My interesting job. I had was additions for the armed services. I read books. I work for the poet Louis untermeyer, and an author Philip Van Doren Stern.

29:07 They published paperbacks. They sent her there was still a large army in in Europe after the war and they sent these paperback. I don't know why I read the books. I have no idea, but I did that.

29:20 I work as a waitress at raft. I worked at Woolworths and Alexander's.

29:26 In college, I lived in a children's home and I took care of the kids and I taught Sunday school. I thought them about the missionaries.

29:34 Tell him you're Jewish when you applied for the job. I did a little housecleaning there. I also work in the dress shop in Cortland. I was a waitress at The Courtland Hotel.

29:45 I was approved for your timely. I work in one breath book shopping Brooklyn after I was married.

29:54 And then I made desserts for Conrad's in New Rochelle. Remember that and for angelyn, Bronxville?

30:02 I work for Linda as in a gift shop. What kind of gift shop?

30:06 What did this crap Christmas Christmas Christmas Christmas then I was a short-order cook in an Irish Pub.

30:16 And now I'm a fun fundraiser in the grants writer. It was something else but I can't remember what it was not important doesn't matter, which is your favorite.

30:28 My favorite job

30:32 I don't think I have any favorites. I Rely didn't let I've lasted this one a long time because I deal with cartoonist and I get they donate their work and we have an auction.

30:47 The Irish Pub was my most scary job. I was so afraid of the owners. I can't tell you they they scared the life out of me when I saw them. I don't know. Why is there ever do anything for you to be scared of that? They were very nice to me. I don't know why it was it was things I'd never dealt with before like slice at that huge slicer that you slice meat on cooking hamburgers and fishing doing it fast enough to know better, but I must have been in my six days. I think really

31:25 I think so. Why did you take that job?

31:29 I don't know Rosemarie. Bridge are called me and said they need a short-order cook at the the Piper's Kilt. That's for me. I said I'll do it.

31:39 I don't know why I mean did you guys need the money or

31:44 It was nice having money wasn't much and it wasn't for long hours except when it was a holiday. Then I work long hours and it was different. It was not waitressing at rest was interesting SkyWars great uniform.

32:01 Black shoes black stockings. I think we were here net so I don't remember.

32:07 He would serve a hard boiled egg. I mean those old ladies didn't eat much. I have to tell you that came to stress, but that was that was interesting. I was seeing everyone else was Irish immigrants. Except me.

32:20 It's like a Piper's Kilt. I didn't belong there either but does well, I mean was there a job where you felt like you belonged?

32:33 Know what now I suppose I've done it for so long. How long since 1987 when I started working at 22 years isn't that long my goodness and you didn't even start that job until you were that was in your sixties? Yes. That was from one to another. What did you want to be like when when I really have to

33:01 Oh, I thought it was going to be a school teacher but then when I saw what you have to do after school you have to do you have to plan a curriculum you have to plan all kinds of things I said, that's not for me especially towards second grade I practice to add 2nd grade.

33:20 If we we did we have been the root was it and each kid was going to give

33:28 A word with it in it, but one boy.

33:34 Clung to that that word the four letter word and we all pretended that we didn't hear it. But he wouldn't stop he wouldn't stuff. He was he was a mobile eyes. I can still say it was a long time ago. He was thrilled. I mean the college itself was a crazy idea because State schools then some specialized music some specialized in there and I went to a place where they specialized in turning out gym teachers. I hated gym. I prayed for disease that I couldn't go to gym. I had to learn to swim when when they came up the road. I was going down the row I had to jump in the pool and touch bottom. I never after that I never went swimming again. That was archery. What else did we do lacrosse?

34:28 And you know how I feel I can walk from a corner to a corner, but that's it. I that was an everyone was in fact all the gym teachers at the school. I work at.

34:43 All the time to do that that at Clearview now or went to Cortland. They have very manage hairdos and they and they talk sports all the time.

34:55 But that that was another time. When is The Fish Out of Water? I didn't belong.

35:00 But I could too I could take a course in elementary education. So well though, but you had to do all those Dopey things. I mean, what's it of the soccer? And when she said to me?

35:13 You can hit the ball, but you can't use your hands. You can use your head's kind of game is that you you can't you can do your head but you can't use your hands either and Tennis when you see tennis on television, somebody else picks up the balls and you hadn't run and pick up those balls. It was not so now I know why you dropped out. So in retrospect, they're all those things you might have done. I mean that you didn't necessarily like, is there a career now you look back and aside from the fact that you had to take care for kids. Like is there a career you wish you had done?

35:54 I would have liked to have done makeup and a department store. I would like to bake, you know, the things I did for conran for nice cuz I could do that at home and delivered. You know, that was that was that was nice, but

36:11 That's about it. I think I'd like to work in a store and meet people I know and and talk probably not sell anything, but that that would be is there anything if you could do anything now, I don't mean work-wise like

36:29 There's anything you can do like a and they didn't have the limitations of black physical like trouble walking and stuff. What would you do?

36:40 You know, that's that's terrible cuz I can never make a decision about what I want to do lead. We're not going to do it necessarily. So I like kind of walking around and looking in stores and I love going to the library. You know, I like talking to my friends at the library when I go but it's not like a super above thing. You would love to be able to do.

37:03 About to lose 50 lb

37:06 That's always a wish, wish.

37:13 No, I I I I I'm content. I love old movies if I can certain old movie so I could I just love that now. How do you want to be remembered?

37:26 I want to be remembered as never hurting anybody that's very important to me cuz when I see the cruelty.

37:34 In the world, you know in different countries and even they backbiting among some of the people I know. I hope I'm never part of that. I don't want to be remembered as being unkind and did that's that's important.

37:53 It's important to me that you're a pretty secure. That's okay. Maybe I'm maybe I'm too namby-pamby. I don't know too much of a wuss, but I would never I wouldn't hurt anybody and I couldn't do it maybe a cockroach little stuff that's about it. And do you have any advice for me for 10 years from now 20 years from now you have to it's everyday everyday has to be a good day because if you look ahead.

38:26 It's going to be Dreadful it's going to because you can't look at it. It's we can't predict, you know that old cliche and get hit by a bus and you don't want to spend and so you might as well enjoy it while you can and and just don't be mean don't be mean that's that to me is very important.

38:46 Well, I love you. I love you, too.

38:49 Pass this one last question to share even ones that they had to Bluff their way into possibly a wuss. How did you get the Agosto to just walk into a place and say I can do this?

39:06 I never thought about it. I never thought about it. I just did it the strawberries. That was painful.

39:17 And the handbag Factory that the worst thing for me is boredom and most a lot of these jobs are boring. How did I do it? I don't know if you're probably right. I guess I wasn't at once. I've changed my tooth. Will you get something is you kind of are worse but lying takes on a different genre for you cuz it's like avoidance addict. I'm I'm always in denial. Yes. I'm very big about your conflict over side said

39:52 When I lied and I lied to my mother, you know, it's it it's at that time. I wasn't guilty and I'm not guilty about lying about these jobs either although the Irish Pub. He knew I didn't I think I told him I was a waitress but I never was a short-order cook and he know what he said. You can learn it know that's why I was afraid of these guys. They put me in this kitchen that was very narrow and everyone was a giant and I'm standing there and I couldn't even reach the the broiler and then I I slipped on the grease and took a big boy and I used to go down to the cellar and Drago bags of frozen french fries. I don't know how I did it. It's only when you it's true when you look back on your life, and you say I don't know how I live with Pete.

40:41 If I have to live with Pete now remembering how it was I couldn't do it. So I guess I could like I don't know it.

40:55 It was sad because he didn't ask to be artistic and yet I resented him and I remember somebody's child died. And I said if Pete had died, it would be better instead of that. It's terrible what that does to it does and as much as you love someone that other aspect of dealing with them on a day-to-day basis when he went to summer camp, I would start counting the days when I was going to come back.

41:27 But I don't know if you remember Pete he wasn't little then I remember.

41:34 Well, you did a good job. I mean for you know, that's a lot of gone through while we kept them home for 28 years.

41:42 Cuz your father went on a search for a a good home good place for him. And he said they're like something out of Charles Dickens. I could never put my Jenny was ride anywhere with Bill Barnes as a matter fact, and he said I could never put my child in the plan. He was right. I would never people used to say why don't you send them to a state hospital? I say I would kill him first I would never do it as much as I resented his presence. I loved him. You know, you're you're torn.

42:15 Okay. Okay. Thank you.