Mari Keiko Gonzalez and Devon Gonzalez

00:03 Devin Kimiko Gonzales age 21 almost 22 today's date is Thursday, June 23rd, 2011.

00:16 New York City

00:18 Daughter of Maria Gonzalez

00:24 Mari Keiko Gonzalez

00:27 42

00:29 Today is June 23rd, 2011.

00:34 And we are in New York New York and I'm Devon's Mom Mother.

00:47 Hi, hi.

00:50 So do you remember what was going through your head when you first saw me? Yes, I do.

00:59 I remember when you were born and they put you on my chest and you were so quiet here really really quiet and you were in this very like tight bundle and you you already looked kind of like like your face was already formed and I like a newborn and

01:19 I don't know if it's because you were supposed to be born a few weeks before that and we had to force you out. But so you didn't even cry or anything when you were born. You just sort of sat there and you opened your eyes and you were so cute. You're so tiny and so cute and you'd really long and skinny legs what season it was July. It was really hot out. And I remember I mean I specifically remember when you were born, you know and daddy who was really he was so nervous the whole time. I'm going to get less he was like freaking out what they used to do. I don't have no idea how it is now cuz this is 1989, but I remember being in the there's the birthing room and then there's a labor and delivery and they're kind of close to you know each other but when we were in the birthing room,

02:14 No, yeah, the birthing room which is before I think that's what it's called yet. I was like watching Sally Jessy Raphael and I don't know if you know she has what she said. He's like red glasses and I don't know why I remember watching that it was on in the monitor in the hospital and they had to give me what they had. They gave me this hormone, which is called pitocin and that is supposed to induce labor or nothing was happening. Like they broke my water and nothing was going on. I wasn't dilating you were like did not want to come out at all. And so I was watching that makes trap is it was really old fashioned like in the 50 is it was like this old seat belt it was a you know, like a fetal Monitor and so it monitors when the contractions are coming and it's like this really old fashioned looking machine that I was on and that he was saying that he was so nervous. I was like yelling at him and I don't like, you know, he's like, okay, it's coming. It's coming out like it's coming on like congratulations now, it's not, it's here and

03:14 This was like really really fast. They couldn't figure out like how fast to put this drip or not. It was like Amateur hour. I was really crazy. And I was so mad. I was like what is going on? You know, like I was having contractions but nothing was happening so I could hear other people. So the show is playing there's no aux sound is it's on the monitor so I can hear everybody and all the other rooms screaming and I was like, I was scared I was so young. It was like a week before my 21st birthday. I was in college and I said to my doctor who was so funny. Dr. Diana a Kendo.

03:55 Am I going to sound like that and she said I certainly hope not I really hope that you don't and Nelson Daddy was like I mean he had to he fainted at one point. I mean I want to say that he didn't but I'm pretty sure that he did he was so worried cuz he never saw me in that kind of pain and I was like and he kept trying to rub my feet and rub my back and I was like get off of me. Don't touch me to get away from me. He was like, okay, so it's okay I get you water and he was really like, yeah, that's I remember that and then all of a sudden it was like hours of that it was hours and hours of that like about 14 hours and then when it was time to and I was exhausting and then was time to give birth to you. They're like, okay, it's time to push. I was like what? I'm so tired like I can't you just give me something in like then I'll be good there like we can't give you they didn't give me a

04:55 Everdry can have anything because I guess for whatever reason it was too far along so the skin is really fun. But when you were it was like all frenetic and crazy, but when you finally were born you just were looking around and blinking. Did you know you were going to have a girl?

05:15 No, actually thought you were going to be a boy had to choose what my name is going to be.

05:22 Well because I thought you were a boy. Your name was going to be Nicholas Nelson or Nicholas Kenzo Gonzalez Daddy's Gonzalez, obviously and but seven as you know is from Devon Pennsylvania from the Devon Horse Show and when Rachel and I When Rachel and I were when we used to ride was one of the Big Show's, you know, the Devon Horse Show the National Horse Show The Garden in South Hampton classic and we saw always say that when we were only had children we had daughters we would name him Devin and I remember when you were born I name to Devin she was like, I can't believe that you remember that and you were named after the horse show and a lot of people didn't like that name cuz then I got some boys name and without his family like they refuse to clean oven for the first few months of your life. They would call you like your middle name. They like them in the boy's name is like Devon.

06:22 And eventually people I called you to come and go in Japanese.

06:32 What do you remember from?

06:35 My younger days as a child.

06:39 After being all quiet as a baby about when I was younger you were always really quiet right, you were so quiet on you just would wash everything and you were so sweet and really innocent and I kind of member of you are so sweet. You were like the most innocent thing ever. You were like a little baby deer and I felt so bad in school like all these kids that were crazy and me and you just didn't understand that you were just look at people like what is wrong with you or sometimes we be at the store like if other children were having Tantrums you would just stare at them like you never had Tantrums. You never acted out you would sleep all the time, like now like you were such a sleep or I'll have to wake you up to feed you. You would like go to sleep from when you were a baby baby from like 7 at night till like 7 or 8 in the morning and you would like conch you like a bear. He was a baby eat all day like he would nurse you in the news.

07:40 Talk about but what I do remember is you were always such an observer, you noticed everything and you took everything and but you were really quiet like you sort of way to assess the situation and then you still didn't really say a lot like you just do it was so quiet.

07:59 Very creative and very very quiet.

08:03 Yeah, you're loud. Now louder. What do you think some of the hardest times or moments were?

08:12 When I was growing up for you.

08:18 Well

08:20 I mean, I guess the good thing about being such a young mother is that you don't really think about things like when you're young. I never really thought about anything. I just sort of took you all over your always liked on my hip where I was wherever we were and I never really thought about it. I think it's harder now that I'm older and obviously have a career in our life is you know, not like my life is very different but it is pretty different. You know, I think you think about things a lot of my friends now who are having children in their 40s and 50s. I can't even imagine what that's like, you stink too much are really neurotic you're worried and plan and you know, here you are you're going to graduate from college next year, you know you

09:05 Got through school, you went to prep school in Manhattan and all of these things that you did and accomplished and you know, I don't think I thought about it like that when I was in at 1 things were you know, other people say like that it was like a rough time. I didn't think it was rough. It was just our life, you know, you know, obviously when you were born it was a week before my 21st birthday, so I was really young and but it do, you know changed my life and a beautiful way I was really wild and you know kind of a handful and you know, it just sort of having you just made me grow up really quickly. So I don't think it was all of the things that happened wasn't they weren't

09:54 I don't know. I don't think any I don't think of it like that like it was a difficult times. I mean it was I guess difficult, you know, Daddy and I separated when you know broke up when you were very little like you don't remember daddy night together, right?

10:11 You know and then so being on my own all my friends were in college and grad school and I was here and I Vino had five jobs and you know, all these different things to

10:24 Fetus in like a guest and looking back now that was hard but at the time it was just sort of what I did. I was very much on my own, you know, Grandma lived in I think of the time she lived in Elizabeth.

10:37 Maybe she was in London and then Grandpa like when I decided to have a I was like on my own.

10:43 There'll I give this is what you want to do, you know, good luck. Goodbye. And so, you know on all my friends to I was very isolated. So I was pretty much on my own but we're very easy to keep me because I mean that's an interesting question. It was a question of whether

11:10 To do that or not? I remember when Daddy and I when I found out I was pregnant and dad and I were talking in the back of the building where I grew up on 95th Street. We're having a conversation outside and you know, I just knew that there was no question that this is what I was going to do, we would figure it out. I was like we're going to get married and this is what we're doing and we'll figure it out later. I wanted to you know, I really wanted to be young enough to remember, you know how to not be like how my parents were I want that was like the main thing. I know that sounds horrible, but and I was obviously grew up on that obviously, but I grew up very privileged and very fortunate and in many ways, but I just think as far as

12:00 Parenting there's parenting Styles, maybe were you know, I'm very different. You know, I think I'm very different loving realize you're very loving. But but anyway, I wanted to you know, I mean, I love grandma and grandpa but you know, they were very busy in their lives and there wasn't a very good they were. They were very and very involved in their own and their lives. My mother didn't live here. My mother was remarried and she lived away like she didn't meet Devin until you were what like nine know you were younger than that. We went to Hawaii right? That was when you my grandma my mother moved back to the states with her husband. She moved back to Hawaii.

12:57 So it was very much not.

13:03 I don't know how to say this. My family was not happy at all.

13:10 Especially my mother my mother wanted me to have an abortion and I remember where I was working where I where I was working at this company that do tours for the Metropolitan Opera these tours in Prague Budapest and Vienna and never liked what I was wearing and I would get these letters from her. I think she was in Edinburgh. She lived in Edinboro Scotland and and she would tell me how she just really I think she was really worried. It wasn't about you. Obviously you weren't a person yet. It was the she was wanting me and I had had all these opportunities in my life and tell me again being very fortunate to grow up the way I did in a lot of ways and exposed to so many things until she felt like I was ruining my life and you know,

13:59 And I disagreed and I knew that I was doing the right thing and I never I don't listen to people anyway, so that's probably good kind of true yet. So even my mother and I love my mother, but I didn't listen to her and I'd certainly didn't listen to my father and I just did what I felt was right. I think that's a good way to be in life. You have to listen to your heart and listen to your gut and even your parents who love and adore you they don't always know. What's what's best for you. That's true except for me. I know it's do you wish that you could have raised me differently.

14:38 What do you think think that you raised me pretty well, then, why?

14:44 Been exposed to a lot of different things and

14:48 Pretty it was pretty good A grown up with you. I think yeah, what was your favorite part of your childhood? I think you had a pretty loving lovely like you're like a flower girl to me if that's even possible for Leica to grow up in the city and grow up in Brooklyn. You are very like peace and love are in a centrally don't really love her ever being sad.

15:16 Make sense. That's nice. I mean but there's other obviously there's other stuff, you know, I don't wear not talking about with Daddy and stuff like that. That was very difficult. But I don't remember that when I was younger. I don't remember any no saying bad really when I was younger. I mean looking back now maybe within the last 10 years was coming up with a child that I won't remember pretty much being happy. Happy kid.

15:51 Special to you

15:56 I feel like I was just like small young kid for like

16:02 Years until maybe the last 10 years. I don't know why I feel like I was always the same age like until I told Evan 7age until High School. Yeah, then I kind of really started doing my own thing and being on my own and becoming my own person.

16:19 I feel like for the most part I was kind of like shadowing mom and a good way. I just remember being with you all the time and you know your friends and

16:32 Being at work with you.

16:35 Vino's pretty good times. You had a lot of time. You still have a lot of love in your life, but you always had a lot of you know love in your life. And I think it's also really different when I mean, I don't know cuz it wasn't my experience to have a single mom or to grow up like that or to have that intense closeness with your mother and I think that forms you in an interesting way as a person and as a girl as it as a young woman and and then also having all of these other

17:06 People in the periphery like all the other is all the love from our family and from Justin and baths and you know, my brother.

17:16 And Josh even you know, when Josh lived with us, you know your uncle is he at any differently like that just seems normal to me, right? You know, right you and I and everyone else around.

17:31 What what advice do you think you would give others or other parents are single mothers or

17:39 Young single mothers about raising kids

17:45 That's a really good question. What advice would I give?

17:53 But you know, I think that that's I think it's very subjective. You know, I mean, sometimes it's all so people don't like to be told how to raise their children, you know, I mean, I'm so tempted sometimes I see people and how they like to talk to their children are yell at them or they're hitting them. It's like I've been in so many situations when I was younger what I've said things and it's escalated into these, you know ridiculous incidents.

18:18 But you know, I think that really the best advice is to is to listen and to not impose all of the things that parents impose on their children like, you know to live vicariously through them or you know, I think I was young enough to not maybe I just wasn't aware of certain things even though I was very mature and very Savvy and all those things for my age.

18:46 You know, one of the greatest things that I feel as a parent is that you that people are only talked about as you learned so much from your children and always what you think, you know, everybody wants to have a little like Mini Me and even though we look like we're very very different we're different in so many ways and I think that I will wear some very similar and in the ways that count or similar emotionally I think in the end and I'm had a fall or compatible but I think that you know, and then also as you get older or I found as I get older, I understand my feelings so I understand things much differently than I did when I was in my thirties in my twenties in my teens, you know, which is I really makes me feel so much more comfortable. I'm so much more comfortable still going bad so much as a person and I think that as far as back to the question advice, I think you just have to listen and realize that you know, your child is not you.

19:46 And leave it there different and you have to really understand what that means and and you know allow the person to be how they are and not try to you know, expose them to everything that you're that you have ended that that's available to them. But you have to just let people be who they are.

20:08 You let me do that. What do you think your life would have been like?

20:14 Without me

20:16 What would you be doing? I be like, I don't know the bad things that you're not supposed to do in life be like smoking cigarettes. I would be like doing heroin on the street. I'll be a pro in Krakow, I would think I would be very different. I don't know. I can't imagine what it would be like, but I think that

20:52 I would probably have some other issues that I don't have. I think that I would.

20:58 I would certainly be much more selfish. I think.

21:03 And yeah, I know. As I was focused.

21:12 Do you think that I'm raising a child has kind of been the most influential thing in your life? I mean, it's definitely been the most important thing that I will ever do in my life. You know, I think that it doesn't really matter all of the achievements and all of those things. Like that's it something that doesn't matter cuz of course it does and of course I work very hard and I have very lucky to have a really good career and I'm very lucky to have done all of the things that I've done in my life and the things that I'm doing and will do but as far as

21:50 Yeah, I think it's the most important thing that you can do because you're doing it for the rest of your life. Even though the person is a grown up there. Always your child. You're always the parent just like I'm always the daughter when I go home. I'm still whatever age I'm stuck in in my parents eyes. I'm still like this fifteen-year-old, you know breath. It got sent to boarding school like that. So who I am when I go home, it doesn't matter what my Compliments are what awards I want. It doesn't matter, you know, it's like that's who I am when we're at Thanksgiving.

22:22 What age do you think Woodfin the appropriate age for you to have?

22:28 How to check in 20 for me. I mean for most people I would say absolutely not not a great idea. I think it depends on the person, you know, I'm in for me it was the time everything is about timing and I think that's really really true and he will say that it's such an old adage. It's Lena's cliche like timing is everything but it's really true and somehow I knew at that time that that was going to be my last opportunity to be a parent. I know that sounds crazy, but I feel that that's really true. I mean, you know, I'm gay. I mean I like gay people don't have children or lesbians don't have children. Of course they do but that's not what I would be doing in my life at all and

23:15 I also you know because I'm also much younger than a lot of the other editors and it in my career and you know, it's like I wouldn't I can't imagine at this age doing that. You know, I mean, I'm tired like a little baby.

23:32 I'm so it's I think it's I think that was the age that was the right age for me and it was the right time and it was exactly how it should have been.

23:43 Do you think you knew who you were at that time? Yeah, I could actually like the time that you figured out like, this is Mari. No, I mean you're still evolving and changing your whole life. I think they're different Cycles in your life. I'm in a different cycle right now. I think that there are the assertive trunks in life and different.

24:04 I mean, I already feel like I've lived so many lives so many different lives up until this point and then it's I'm not even at my halfway mark. I don't think your butt so that you know, you're going to keep changing and so it was a good moment. You caught me at a good moment when I was almost 21. It was a good time.

24:28 And it difficult on the 20th. I'm sorry, but when he's a really difficult, so get ready twenties later twenties later twenties. I think I'm not so easy for it for me. That's just what I think now knowing what I know now.

24:44 Thanks for the update Nelson earlier. Could you tell me a little bit about how that relationship kind of where you guys started and maybe go from there?

24:59 I knew nothing when I was I met him when I was very young danceteria, which was this famous club in New York in the 80s. And when we were teenagers go out dancing my friends and I think I was 15 when I met Daddy.

25:17 And I remember exactly what he was wearing. He will the first time he was wearing this like a Gucci sweat suit and he was so cute. And it was like Run DMC was playing at the theater in 1/4. There's like a hip-hop. There is like New Wave Punk each floor had two different genre of music. So, of course, we're on the Run DMC 4 and my crazy friends and I saw him and everyone is like he's so cute. He's so fine. And I was there with my boyfriend that I was trying to like ditch. I was at this guy's name is Spike and

25:56 He was such an idiot. So anyway, I in Daddy was so shy I think you get your shyness from Daddy. He was there with like all his crazy friends and one of my friends I think approached him and said, you know, my friend likes you and he saw me he was like Hey now and so I was like, I was trying to get away from my boyfriend. And so I am said to Danielle AKA squirt just come back next week. We'll come back. We used to go to dance the Chariot on house in the Roxy. That's what he said. There's a Friday and Saturday. I don't know where my parents thought. I was Jennifer's house, but we got to dance with her on Thursday fun rocking the rocks and Friday fun house on Saturdays.

26:41 And I'm anyways, so he came back the following week and I didn't recognize him cuz he was wearing a silk shirt and trousers and like a belt and shoes and I was like, what are you wearing? You know where 15 and he was like all dressed up like right date like he was wearing this button down shirt. He looks like ridiculous, but he's so sweet. He was so shy and and his a couple of his friends were really really funny and so my friends like their friend, so we just used to hang out in groups and cruise, you know, we were just hang out all the time. He was so innocent. He never liked try. He never even tried to kiss me for like I smell like a year. I think it was that long like he would come down here and doesn't grandma and grandpa first separated.

27:28 And so grandpa had that other apartment on 100th Street and so he would come over in like cook for me like bring me his like marinara sauce and like make pasta and like

27:40 Just very unusual. Yeah, I think the night I met him was the first night that he left the Bronx. It was at the first night that he been to Manhattan the night I met Daddy.

27:49 Daredevil

27:53 So anyway, we you know, we're together for years after that off and on throughout my high school and then I went away to boarding school and you know, we always stayed in touch since I had other boyfriends. I was a little crazy and

28:10 And then I was away at college and Pittsburgh and grandma lived in Pittsburgh when she was at Carnegie Mellon and then I came back to New York and we were together and

28:20 And then I got pregnant we got married and then we separated. Yeah pretty shortly thereafter. Actually. It was pretty bad. It's pretty rough. He became an alcoholic drink when I met him all of my friends like Drank In like to drugs and he was really innocent really really innocent and then he

28:52 Yeah, his you know, his father is an alcoholic and was an addict and so is hereditary at that age is sort of when it just he became a different person when I was pregnant.

29:02 And I was like, why do you think then I think it's like that's the age that it manifests itself. I think when you have that genetically, I guess I mean I never knew from that. I never knew anything like that in my life. I never knew anybody who was an alcoholic. I never had that in my family to my knowledge and we have you no other issues thing that I was not prepared for and I just didn't want you growing up around that at all. And so

29:35 It was very he's very violent and he didn't remember things and so once I started happening, I was like, oh, yeah, this is got to go. So I think you were made.

29:48 Three or four months, so I can't even remember three or four months old and I was like, you know

29:54 Yeah, I know. Thank you.

29:56 So it was hard to break up with him cuz he wouldn't leave he just would keep coming back. You know, he get hit by cars you like black guys get arrested. If you break down the door was really fun. So, you know, nobody really knew I was very isolated. So nobody really knew to the extent of how bad that was and then yeah, and then finally I left like a lap left and I just would stay at people's houses with you. You were such a little baby. I would like to see my friend Karen's house. He really don't remember her turn and Lemay.

30:34 She lived in Hoboken G work with me at the medical answering service and he lives in Sheila's she and her sister. She's from Massachusetts from Holyoke. They all or from that area when North Northampton area and then I stayed with Stacy I would stay with all these different people until we saw her settled in and you know,

30:56 So that was hard, but it was good. It was it was good that lives in you. Absolutely.

31:05 Is that kind of where your relationship with him and did or you know, I really tried to have him have a relationship with 7 for her whole life until recently until a few months ago.

31:20 He's never gotten sober. He was sober for. Which is why we stayed together when I found out he disappeared a couple days before we were getting married. Actually. It was one of my closest friends of Sky Co they were going to bender and I didn't know where he was and he came back and I was like if this is how it's going to be like you got like you got to either go to rehab or I can't like I can't have this in my life. I need that was the only time he was sober that I knew him for those.

31:48 The one that we got married in the month after that and then he's you know been an active alcoholic sense and it's only gotten worse. So, you know, I tried to have Devin and his wife. She used to go stay there on the weekends every other weekend then. Stopped cuz I would have to go pick her up in the middle of the night and then we would try to have these control visits and some days just very unpredictable is really hard. I always wanted Devin to have a relationship with him.

32:18 So, I'm sure that was very hard for you.

32:21 It was really hard and really know what's going on, you know, and it wasn't like I grew up without a father but at the same time I did like he was always there but wasn't really like we have this relationship and

32:39 Spanish-speaking resisted and away and I love my father. But do you remember when you were in kindergarten and I told you that he had an illness and he was an alcoholic to remember when I talk to you about that. I told you that he was sick and that it was I mean around him. I mean, I remember like incense is when I was younger in with my cousin when we would be together, but I don't ever really remember. I like how it happened or why are you know leaving but

33:14 You know, you just get those like flashes here and there like being with him and then no real like memory know nothing significant, but then when you're older once you were older, when did you realize that he had we talked about it all the time that he had a drinking problem just didn't really make sense. Now, you're around people they drink, you know people get drunk you don't really realize I mean I didn't live with him. So I don't think that I really understood what that meant. I mean,

33:48 That wasn't it just didn't make sense. I don't think and now it's kind of you know, it's starting to make sense, but you know.

34:01 Yeah, unfortunately, he missed out on a lot on a lot of stuff he did.

34:12 Is Parenthood what he expected it would be?

34:18 I don't know. I mean, it's actually I don't think I really expected anything. I don't know what I

34:25 Again, I think it's cuz I was young. It's like when you're that age, you don't really eat his do things. You don't like I said, I'd never really thought about it. I just

34:34 Do what I have to do and I'm certain that it's much better than I could have ever imagined it to be but it's also I mean I've done with my daughter so it's easy to say this but you know, if I wasn't no, I mean if she wasn't my daughter should be somebody that I would want to have in my life and be friends with you don't have very close to a lot of her friends who are like my other children and you know

35:02 Hello there young people in my life that I Mentor or yeah, I'm friends with so.

35:08 Parenting is

35:10 I like it.

35:13 Do you have a favorite memory of Devin that you don't have to be one in particular but the ones that are special especially special.

35:26 I guess like a time in our life maybe that I like when we lived on Bond Street. Yeah, we had a we rented a brownstone in Brooklyn, which is how we initially moved to Brooklyn three story Brownstone and Devan how these animals like bunnies and guinea pigs and mice and Cat and I have been staying with us all the time. I was like, I was like a circus for a little bit and then just sort of ran all over the place in that house.

36:06 And you were so cute. You were so little it was rolling your eyes in pre-k. So about in a few years after that like three years three four years old.

36:20 I was living in that house. I was at the age or the timer. I think it was like your age and and also being there, you know, you were so always have this in a sense but is that age? I love that age 4 through 8 portrait. Yeah. I remember actually one incident that Devin knows the story when she used to have a pacifier and she would suck on all the time and I said to her you know what Deb you're getting a little big Devon's really good when you prepare her for thing. I remember that. I remember this day I can visualize yeah.

37:02 I remember it very well, you know people would say I should be in her stroller. She's you know, kind of like this big baby and I want to say you were in kindergarten but I don't think you were that you weren't when you were so maybe you were like four or five you might have been getting ready, but I would look younger. I know but you remember you had your pacifier this white pacifier and you suck on it all the time or bubbly and I was like that you're getting a little old. You might want to think about losing the pacifier or so when you're ready, like eyes are prepare her and like other people and all these books that I was reading Lee like cut the pacifier which I thought was really strange for the you just take it away or you let your kids cry. They're always like parenting things that I never did like your house crying don't get up but everytime you cry. I'll get up with you hardly ever cried. I'm going to leave you in your room crying that's like so mean, but anyways, so, I remember I said to you and then

38:02 A few days later. It was maybe a week when I was reading you a bedtime story sat up. And you said to me you took your pacifier out of your mouth your bobo and you handed to me you're like, okay, I'm ready. Now. I don't need it anymore. Like really are you sure you're like, I'm ready. I was like, okay and then that was it when you're ready. I prepare you and then you like, okay. I'm good. Now, I just need a little preparation and you like to know?

38:39 We're almost out of time. But before we end on feminist, like I see what do you think some of the most valuable things you've gotten from your mother learned from her everything? I kind of every time I do anything I kind of think whether or not my mother or not you approve or if you would

38:59 You know, if you would tell me to do whatever it is that I'm considering and you know, I definitely

39:09 Treat people how I would treat you which is with respect. I hope and you know, Lovin

39:19 Can I see I guess, you know, just how you treat me. I treat people how you treat me and

39:27 And that you taught me a lot and I appreciate it and I appreciate Galen.

39:33 We have a ways to go very compassionate. She's probably one of the most compassionate and empathetic people. You are very sensitive.

39:53 Thanks T. Thanks,