Donna Lieberman and Liana Stampur

00:04 My name is Liana Stamper and I am 30 years old. Today is March 22nd, 2016 22nd and we are at in New York City Manhattan downtown Foley square and I am talking with my mother Donna Lieberman.

00:28 And I'm Donna Lieberman. I'm 67 years old. Today is March 22nd, and we're here in Foley square and I'm talking to my daughter Brianna Stamper.

00:43 So I wanted to start off our conversation by starting from the beginning. So Mom growing up. How did you envision your future when it comes to the idea of work and your life? What did you think you were going to be when you grew up? Well, honestly, I never really gave it a whole lot of thought until I did it. I was from my earliest years. I was interested in issues of justice and equality civil rights, but I never really spent a lot of time worrying about what I was going to be when I grew up which is very different from the way. I see your generation thinking about, you know, from the time you are in college worrying about what you're going to do for a job.

01:43 I'm part of that speaks to I think my generation really didn't have the same kind of economic insecurity you guys too and part of it was I don't know me I have to say that this is something that you don't know but when I was in eighth grade, we had to write an essay every week. It was torture and one essay was what do you want to be when you grow up? I think it must have been in in in French in French class. It was an English class. And so I just wrote this essay that I wanted to be there for when I grew up and an itch. I mean I voted to shock people. I was the prettiest prude of anybody in my high school, but I wrote that essay and it's kind of stuck with me and it just came up when you did not

02:43 My next question is so you're the director of the New York civil liberties Union which you know, and I do to my question is where do you see your connection to social dress. Is it to social justice like what are your

03:00 Roots and why is this in your blood may be? Why did you have to kind of acquire these ideas? So, you know some people are born into in a right-wing families and they rebelled and become human rights activist, I guess in some ways. I had it easy but not so easy. I was born into a left-wing family and and I didn't rebel against the politics that or the values that that we're kind of that I was brought up with the values of appreciating and fighting for the right to get an education the values of racial Justice and equality, you know, my dad was was twice accused of being a communist for among other things having organized a and integrate a racially integrated VFW Post when he got out of the Navy after World War.

04:00 In fact, he lost his job at the labor board or he left his job at the labor board because after being cleared of loyalty charges when I was 6 months old the first time he was recharged with being a communist and again two years later and and you know, I was always aware of that Legacy that my parents had fled from Boston to New York, which is where he was able to find a job, but I never really appreciated how horrific that experience was until I was much much older and and you know growing up. I used to being there during the Vietnam war my parents used to read the the the national Guardian which was a left when you use paper and that had the best coverage of the war like that we would come into New York all the time.

05:00 My dad would ask me to go across the street and pick up on 42nd Street in front of the library a copy of the guardian and put down to my arm, you know and was always nervous about anybody seeing us reading it. That was the year the climate of fear that I grew up with in. I remember the March on Washington. I wasn't able to go I wasn't allowed to go. I think I was in 9th grade then and my parents were afraid to let me go but but by the same token, you know as a kid going to high school in Cranford, New Jersey Mike with a lot of support and prodding from my dad. We organized a Freedom Concert for the Prince Edward County free School Association where I got the chorus from my from my school and the music teacher from my school to perform a Freedom Concert, which was a history of the struggle for civil rights in Suburban. Very very white.

05:59 Kind of sort of Republican Cranford New Jersey to raise money for the Prince Edward County free School Association, which was the schools that were organized to allow black kids to go to school cuz they shut down the schools in Prince Edward County rather than comply with the mandate to integrate. So so this these values in a particular education and equality In My Bones from the day, I was born and I guess it's no surprise that here. I am today I have to add to that store to do now is that the poster that was hung around kind of publicize that Isabel is happening with made by your sister Judy and now resides in my apartment.

06:45 And I looked at all the time because it's like it's an artifact of our family and it makes me the poster. It's yeah, it's like this is my aunt to my mom's sister is an artist an amazing artist. I mean, that's not her profession is just her Talent Judy is an incredible scientist Dr. There's a whole other interview for hurt. That's do but she Drew just a a brown figure and a white figure and their hands are meeting and it just says like the time and date and the location, the name of the event and it's simple and powerful and look what my favorite things that we aren't even though. I don't feel like our family has a lot of likes things that we put too much value into that's one of them and it makes me so happy that you want that in your hand. I love it. Well,

07:45 I also think I should give it back to Judy but we can work that out of her house, but I think the next thing because all of this obviously led to your you know, where you are now and there's a longer story there between when you were in ninth grade, and now they've 67, you know, and you terms of your work at the nyclu, I guess. I wonder because I take a lot of your work for granted. I'll admit to it. You know, what are how do you see yourself at the end my silly like what are your proudest moments as a as a civil rights lawyer as an activist what it would have been like your proudest moments as you and you may be outside from the nyclu or maybe within the Embrace of you. So I just want to say that that you know before I came to the nyclu I never would have thought of that as my my my sold home my pillow.

08:44 Pickle home and I always start at the ACLU as kind of, you know, all about free speech and like free speech is cool and everything but like we got in the war in Vietnam we have to deal with the quality that that is at the core of of of the way our society is structured and and I didn't appreciate even though my family suffered so much at the denial of free speech in the persecution that my father and the whole family suffered during the McCarthy era. I didn't really appreciate the importance of fighting for these neutral principles the same rules for everybody. And as I came to the ACLU I sent to work at the nyclu. I learned a lot about that and and actually nyclu I have internalised in the Midway nyclu values in terms of the most memorable moments.

09:44 I'm at the nyclu. We just a little bit different from like what are big accomplishments are I don't want to talk about the memorable moments first because

09:57 They have a lot to do with you. You know, I'm one of those people who you know so much is invested in my family.

10:07 And they're right there and the fact that you and Keith care about the work is like

10:20 I feel like I'm successful as a parent aside from the fact that your phones by amazing people and and but I have some like Recollections of my time here before I was the head of the nyclu. I remember when you were you must have been at least five or six going to PS 87 and and you were in the office as you were many many times. It was like 1 subway stops away practically and any emergency you were their vacation emergency you were there and and you happen to be there the day that we won the Appellate Division ruling in hope versus Perales, which was a very important abortion case that we brought in New York state.

11:14 And we have to do a press release and severe you are sitting on my lap in front of my computer and Catherine's on one side Melendez on the other side Catherine Weiss. Linda Abrams me and you we're all right in the press release and I don't know if you remember that but but I sure do and it was like a wonderful just it said so much about like why I do this work, you know another moment that I just loved was with Keith who's little older than you as you know, he was about twelve and I was at that point running the Reproductive Rights project for the nyclu and and it was a time when Jocelyn Elders was Surgeon General

12:14 And she was she had been she had said something about masturbation being an example of safe sex and she got pilloried for it. And so there I am Friday night going with key and some of his 11 or 12 year old buddies and a taxi down to a movie and he says to me we're all crowded into the backseat. He says hey mama, so why don't you tell them what you were talking about on TV this morning? I said Oh you mean masturbation? Well all the kids all these young boys just looked at me and you don't fight fight in all seriousness. I have to say I'm so grateful for the fact that I was able to do Reproductive Rights work and talk about, you know, the young people needing access to information and tools to 2 so that they could engage in healthy behaviors and and so that I could pass that along to you.

13:14 Eyes without embarrassment or crazy, you know over parenting kind of wonderful things, but you know in terms of

13:25 Some of the big accomplishments and we'll talk about the concert in a minute. I have to pinch myself constantly.

13:38 Took to believe that I am able to make a contribution to history. I mean who would have thunk that the New York civil liberties Union would be in the Forefront of the struggle for marriage equality. We represented Edie Windsor. We did a ton of work to put together that casein to make it a strong powerful taste in the one that first went to the Supreme Court to strike down the Defense of Marriage Act that is light and we did that with the ACLU and I'm with with with Robbie Kaplan from from Paul Weiss and standing there with Edie Windsor, you know celebrating my victory is like, oh my God is this real and and you know, there's a picture on the front page of the New York Times if you need me, you know at the victory rally and it's like, oh, wow, you know, it was kind of ridiculous in life.

14:34 And yet not ridiculous the most of them what the farthest thing from ridiculous ever practical basic thing, you know, and and is the nyclu has been responsible and have during the last 15 years that that you know, I've been in the director and it's not because of me it is like such a fabulous talented smart passionate team for some really important victories in another one was our Victory recently in overhauling solitary confinement in in New York State's. I mean, we shine we shine a light on on the the egregious human rights violations of solitary confinement overused. It it it has been in New York state and through a combination of in a public reports.

15:34 And and litigation which is what we do, we integrate policy work and advocacy work and lobbying and litigation. We have achieved a settlement in our case people's versus Fisher.

15:51 That is going to just change and perhaps save the lives of thousands of people who are doing time in New York state prisons, and I think you know, that's like really amazing. We know that was every Victory we achieve of course, you know, it generates more work. You have to sort of hold their feet to the fire and monitor the implementation me to another one of our victories was The Hurl Herring case, which is establishing. You have 50 years after Gideon's trumpet in over 50 years after establishing the right to counsel, you know, we filed and we had to file a major class action lawsuit to establish the right to counsel in New York to make it real for four people in New York. And we won that case just two years ago, you know, I wasn't the direct line lawyer on it, but I certainly, you know, I had something to do with bringing it and end the whole campaign around its are wheel of justice that went around the state.

16:51 Justice shouldn't be a crapshoot. You shouldn't have to spin the wheel of Justice. It should be automatic and and they're too it's going to take a concert at a long struggle and you know solitary confinement the right to counsel all this stuff isn't it's about justice but it's also about equality, you know, the people who fill our jails are by no accident and fights overwhelmingly people of color victims of of the War on Drugs, that was so crazy. And so targeted of Temple of color and is really devastating in dealing with mass incarceration has been top priority for the nyclu.

17:33 Beto another piece of that movie where where we've accomplished a lot but we're not yet there but I'm really proud of it is is shining a light on on the the disgraceful and terribly harmful practices of the Bloomberg Administration following up on the Giuliani administration of criminalizing school discipline, you know of instead of sending kids to the principal's office when they write on the desk, you know, or refused to take off their cap, like arresting them and and the New York civil liberties Union and I take a lot of responsibility for that, you know, put out a report criminalize in the classroom to document the problem that was going on and we followed it up with with an example with a report education interrupted which is about schools that safety with dignity which

18:33 Which describes schools that got got it, right somehow we didn't have the prescription for how to do schools discipline. Right? But but but we talked about schools that worked including the school run by a friend of yours and cooking her back. Yeah Academy, which really sweet of tramp did they turned around to Richmond educational complex into like from from a prison like atmosphere to like a model of progressive education that sends kids to college routinely and and it was the nyclu leading the way Nationwide to to shine a light on what's the problem of racially disparate formalization of school discipline arresting kids giving them summonses for disorderly conduct. Really we got the student safety act passed to require New York to to to make public.

19:33 How many kids were getting arrested what race were they what gender or what and and we've turned it around and we've turned it around in New York because we've convinced the the the police department and the Department of Education that that's the wrong way to go and now we're really trying working with it with the de Blasio Administration to try to change the structure so that so that the the structure of criminalization and suspensions is not what exists but it's replaced by positive discipline and and and educational supports for kids. So those are like some of the moments that I mean that the peace and education and significance of providing support and opportunity and setting kids up for Success those ideas are

20:28 Like very much so directly what influence both he and me. I mean like that's I think that the piece a lot of the big piece of the work that you do that influences Us in any other choices we've made because I think he's an immigration lawyer and works directly with family is in unit tries to provide support to young children all children, but no idea that that everyone deserves a fair shot and that in order to make real change that young people have to believe that it's possible that they have to believe that they have a shot in this is a world that set up for them. I think is something that in our own ways has run really true for for both of us and I think it's also something that as we grew up we became

21:17 Hardly aware that we had grown up with those ideas. We believe that we had opportunities in this world when I say opportunities. I don't mean like opportunities to go to The Hamptons. I mean opportunities to be successful to that our voices were significant. It was never we never questioned whether our ideas were valid that you know that our thoughts and our perspectives were significant and it was only growing up that we came to realize independently and collectively I think because of a lot of the work that you and Dad do that. There's just a huge gap in what is possible for people in this country in this world, but I think most of Italy in our city and I think that's like what has inspired us. Not only that we both went to college in New York. We both have decided to venture. I mean like, you know, we both decide to have our families.

22:17 New York be no nothing's permanent, but I think they're there's a reason why I mean this is where it not only where we come from and it's not a small town by any means it's not like it's it's hard to find things to find in a reason to stay in New York City. But this is where we feel rooted in. This is where we feel inspired to participate and I think we've experimented participating in other places and their people find tremendous success in that but there is, you know, aside from the emotional piece of being your family. There's a real lick fire on our butts to really

22:52 Do hard work and that it's the expectation that we are are working hard. So one of the things that as you were talking you reminded me that that you know, one of the big Inspirations in my life and I think in yours as well as the example if your grandma and you know, she was she was an artist and a teacher and

23:29 Yeah, and she I mean you knew her better than I did but there's a the Legacy there's a there's a legacy in in in our family that is obviously special and important and then the fact that you wrote a song things. My grandma taught me is like and it's just so beautiful.

24:02 I hate you describe. We probably didn't respected. I think I wrote a poem when I was in second grade when I was learning about similes actually know I wrote a poem about my grandma be at my dad's mom my grandma Pauline and I described my grandma be as I think the direct quote is like my grandma be is like a dumpling and my grandma Pauline it like a pretzel stick that I just speaks to her. I remember my going to be being like the soft, you know, not not jumping like that just like, you know round and accessible person that you wanted to be around. My grandma was magnetic. She was she didn't over talk which is hard to believe because of me, but she was I mean, I was the youngest of all the grandchildren so I feel like my memories of my grandma be while she lived, you know, well into my adulthood

25:00 Were kind of a lot more emotionally bass and me and my grandma made time for me. She took me to the met with my grandpa every Sunday. She was kind of she was a hard-ass woman. I mean like she not in our personality, but she worked her butt off her entire life. She raised three girls, and she you know my mama I talk often now as I'm a mom about, you know, the the differences between responsibilities that kind of in society and just based on human makeup that fall upon women versus the those that followed men and not to suggest anybody's better than anyone else my grandma really internalized those responsibilities and took them on and was a strong yet sensitive.

25:54 Woman, I mean that's the feeling Hurley actual history that she worked in a jail for a while. She was a teacher. She was my mom's teacher you organized the first racially integrated daycare center in Washington DC during World War II and my sister Phyllis was one of the kids in that take care center another example of like what must have made her a communist. Is there a line or two that you can remember from things my grandma taught me that that even if things are gonna top me starts say a prayer for those who are waiting. And for those who haven't come say a prayer for all the father to say a prayer and if you say one thing of those who think they're done, we're not getting any younger.

26:54 And then the song the chorus is from a pin that my grandma had a little Golden Pin that has a flower in the middle of it. And it says war is not healthy for children or at other living things war is not healthy for children or other living things. And then there is more button when you sang that course, I didn't have prior notice of it. I just heard it one of your shows. I was just like

27:31 No, you were crying crying and it it it is it's so gratifying to me, you know, as I think teachers are like Saints and in our society and and you know, my mom had such was not once has like push yourself on to us, but she gave us her wisdom which is like pick your battles, you know, and and she always you know, as you said, you know, validated and valued what we thought and empowered us. We gave us both my parents gave us a sense we could do anything and and and look we time it did and I see that that sort of passed on to you guys but also valuing people. I mean, I love it that both you and key work with kids and you know, you are like I've seen you with Karina it was it's beautiful.

28:31 And Clinton is beautiful with her too. And so is key and Tara but but in your work, you know, the way you work with children and Elevate them and help them grow and Thrive is really wonderful and the wakey who represents the the kids who are fleeing Central America and the violence there and helps him get the status that they're entitled to and in addition to doing all that, you know, Togo, you know organizes, you know, not just like the legal representation but the soccer game and an event for them and and the way the kids talk about it is like, you know, he make some like forget about their worries and feel that their kids again. And the thing that Gigi is always been really good at 2 that I think he definitely gets from is it

29:31 He has to take ownership of but like that he really gets from you and Dad is that like he you know, and I I have it too but that he really just connect to people when they're in front of him. He doesn't everyone who meets Chi wants to just can't help us see how kind he is and they just feel that they know it that he he is almost like you Mickey and just buy the meeting like he's got your back and then and I think he the work he does anywhere that he was working would be lucky to have him but it's it mean it's so the right spot for him because these families need to feel like somebody's got their back and they're not used to feeling like anyone's got their back and I mean he gives these you know, it's not a matter of giving right that's never been the idea. It's not a matter of Charity. It's always been a matter of connecting and and and and self-worth and that you as a person who is, you know, hopefully participate in your community doesn't

30:31 That you have the power to give that to somebody but that you have the responsibility to inspire it and them and to remind them of it and that that's those are two different things.

30:41 I want to before I want to kind of talk to you just cuz I would I hope to make you cry at least a few more times. I want you to tell me about like how you see your legacy. What do you see like what you know, like, how do you see like, why is the World's Fair? Why is this city better for like your grandchildren or you know, what? Yeah. What what's your legacy? And if you want to make me feel so, you know, I have to say that growing up in ONN coming of age and you know as a college student and through much of my adulthood feeling so empowered and feel like anything was possible and feeling basically optimistic even as a child of the McCarthy era.

31:36 I have to say that I feel like my generation has done a crap job for you guys. You know, we've left the world in in in crisis in constant Waters, even though we don't feel it so directly as say during the Vietnam and and World War II and you know, the very existence of the planet being in Jeopardy because of these climate, you know deniers and and greedy powerbrokers, but gosh that was dragging it. Yeah, but I think that that, you know, the older I get sort of the more appreciative I am of that Legacy is about little things little victories and big ones and I feel it's my biggest Legacy as my mom would

32:36 I said and did I think is my kids and their kids and and Karina is well on her way and you know having built the nyclu from what it was when I became the head of it. I am I think that that it was left in a wonderful place by my predecessor who kind of recruited me there Norman Siegel, but we've grown incredibly and expanded our work not just our size you all over the state to to you know, shine a light on on on the values and the problems that our society faces in terms of race, you know, I was raised to worry about race even though I grew up

33:36 White suburb in a pretty white suburb of there. I was documenting racial inequality in Cranford, Cranford, New Jersey and and you know having put the nyclu into a place organizationally where we are capable of achieving both short and long-term goals focused on racial Justice and Racial equality, which is unit the legacy of slavery. You know, my mentor was Arthur kinoy he told he weaves in law school those of us who went to Rutgers the people's electric law school learn so much from him and from his example as a people's lawyer and about how the roots of the problems that we have today in our society are so much the products of our failure to ever grapple with an undo the harms of slavery the legacy of slavery.

34:36 You know racial justice has been my top priority for the nyclu and for my life, you know really from the very beginning and and I focus on education and Shining a light on the importance of Education the value of Education. I see it as a key to the Future and I see you know, and and and it's it's part of the key to opening up and I'm doing the legacy of racism at the work we've done on school discipline and to end the school to prison pipeline is huge. He had to work we've done to 2 to stop through discrimination against immigrants who are trying to cut be here and go to school, you know, which is like as American as apple pie, you know is is like really important work and and the legacy of of a new way of approaching the work of a human rights organization and I pray

35:36 Talk about human rights and civil rights because it didn't human rights are more positive rights not just freedom from government, but freedom to he and I could get Healthcare to have economic Justice to have equal opportunities.

35:52 The the the the the legacy of creating a a way of doing things and we don't have it. Right but of integrating you're using the legal system using the legislative system using the power of advocacy and and and public education in furtherance of the goal of winning popular support for what's right and and and and pushing both small campaigns like getting transparency about, you know, police Behavior the impact of it on on on communities of color the impact of educational policies, you know, that's an important structural Legacy at the ACLU and it's a model that that ACLU Affiliates all over the country are now using not just because you know, we came up with it at seeing what a great idea we have to if you weigh to be effective.

36:52 And and you know as we talked about racial Justice people are often talking about you to criminal justice to me. It's more important to talk about education educational just been better than criminal justice because it's feels so much more positive, but we have huge problems in this country and I feel like that, you know, I've helped the nyclu make a contribution the other Legacy. I don't know if it's a legacy or not. But I'm so glad that you as your graduation present present to the nyclu started Broadway stands up for Freedom are we called it something else back in the day, but but but but that has grown to a wonderful Nino coming together of the New York civil liberties Union and the Arts, you know to to to support our work and to celebrate. I think that's that you in the concerts, you know happens once a year every summer and it's the acknowledgment and the celebration of your work.

37:52 And it's an opportunity that he meant being a people's lawyer like talking about me know that the opportunity for the people some of them are artists and singers and performers, you know, it's it's an opportunity for the people to not just a thank you, but to it's it's fuel for the fire, you know to keep to inspire each other and to remind each other to keep keep it moving in small ways and big attend. I was hitting I was so thrilled last year when we had as our honored guests Edie Windsor and I along with Eric Garner's. Yeah, man, Malcolm who is ramarley Graham his mom. And and and this is Bob Bob Muhammad buys mom, you know who came, you know, representing the breadth of the nyclu we cover a whole lot of turf we fight for human rights wherever we need to and and and I think we too kind of a great job and I also love

38:52 The fact about the concert that I get to sort of be a soccer mom is always wonderful, but for me, the thing that gets me like just moved me is the fact that you and Clinton performing to sing beautifully and and and make that our whole family is is there supporting the same goals keep Rings zillion friends now and sell Sicilian tickets daddy brings like all his clothes and it's the concert. I like to hear by the concert. Is that both key and I didn't have weddings even though we're both married to our get a tire and me to Clinton and we always joked that our wedding is the concert every year because that's really the opportunity to round up all of our friends and you know instacart each other love on each other and remind each other that we're here all of our family our chosen family. We don't have much time mom. So we've got to wrap this up.

39:53 And I want to say thank you. I'm proud of you. You're like the best mom and dad's okay to I love you.