Lorraine Stofft and Michael Miller

Recorded November 26, 2019 Archived November 26, 2019 39:55 minutes
0:00 / 0:00
Id: mby019439

Description

Spouses Lorraine Stofft (51) and Michael Miller (66) share stories of hiking and exploring the Sonoran desert together as a couple.

Subject Log / Time Code

LS asks MM what he finds magical about the Sonoran desert.
MM describes the plant life in the Sonoran desert.
LS asks MM if he has a favorite memory of hiking in the Sonoran desert.
MM talks about crossing water in Pina Cate.
MM describes the beauty of the PIna Cate.
MM discusses his passion for environmental preservation.
LS and MM discuss environmental changes.
MM talks about the importance of getting into the wild.
LS and MM recall memorable wildlife encounters.
MM recalls a rattlesnake counter
MM discusses climate change woes.

Participants

  • Lorraine Stofft
  • Michael Miller

Recording Locations

Yuma Art Center

Transcript

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00:03 My name is Lori stofft. I am 51 years old. Today is Monday November 25th 2019 and we are in Yuma Arizona and I get today I get the privilege of interviewing Michael Miller who is my husband.

00:20 And I am Michael Miller that husband I guess I'm about 66 and again, it is Monday November 25th 2019. And this is Yuma Arizona in back of the beautiful historic Yuma theater and my my interview partner my interview or is is my wife or soft.

00:47 All right.

00:50 I'm so excited to talk to you today about something you love very much the Sonoran Desert where we live. So I wonder if you could just talk a little bit about what's magical to you about the Sonoran Desert.

01:05 Well, let me see.

01:09 How to make a long story short once upon a time. I actually never cross the Continental Divide until I was in my mid-thirties and you before that I'd lived in only green and humid climates. Although some of them were warm. Some of them were cold, but never really seen desert of that kind much. I guess I had traveled in Mexico, but in this country, I really was not familiar with the with the what we call the West.

01:45 And so I guess like quite a few people I

01:53 I was just fascinated by it. It was like moving to another planet. And yeah, I remember when I first came out here for a job interview. I was flying over a flying from Phoenix to Yuma and of course that's a really pretty exceptionally Baron stretches of desert there and thinking this is really a lot like Mars or something like that and you know probably wasn't too impressed with it in that sense. But a lot of the Nuance of of of all that area that I was flying over now, I've I've traveled it all on foot and by Jeep and so on and I I see it in a completely different way.

02:38 But you know that the geology I would have course was just absolutely completely different. I guess the difference being that it, you know, it's completely exposed right now. There was the rocking and you know, these the underlying surface of the Earth is just completely exposed in a desert but what kind of lie definition but it is I think it's really kind of the the interesting plant life really that that eventually you began to fascinate me nightlife, right? Yeah, and they say that the the Sonoran Desert has one of the most diverse

03:23 Mixes of a plant life in the entire world and so that I think you might have asked me what was surprising about it, but you know that's got to be something that would be surprising to pretty much anybody who sees it for the first time and you know, we would think that you sense so such a much smaller portion of it is that cupboard with plant life that it also would be less diverse. But in fact for some reason that makes it more diverse. Oh, that's that's one of the things that's really fascinating about it to me that you know, what it to answer your question about what's mad you lied to me? It was just his Magic Magical by definition just coming from those I lived in the midwest. I lived in Florida and I lived in in northern Europe and you know who's coming to just such a complete and replace it is just magical by definition, but it was something that

04:23 As I started getting out and around it and in the desert more and more. I just noticed that it was a side. You know that I just found so many for one thing completely different Pockets, but just just so different from anything. I would have ever imagined.

04:43 You and I have spent, you know, almost 30 years camping and Jeeping and hiking around.

04:53 The C&O Southwestern corner of Arizona and really the north Northwestern corner of Sonora Mexico and I have a couple of favorite memories like one was the El Nino winter where we rented a four-wheel drive and went on the backside of the cofus and our daughter was so small and there was this big violent rainstorm thunderstorm one night. We were up on this little Hill in a tent and it felt like we're being buffeted in the storm. But I wonder do you have any do you have any favorite memories of being out in the desert?

05:26 It it's so hard to depend that down because like I said that there are so many diverse sub pockets of the Sonoran Desert and like you said, you know, I've been doing this for 30 years. So we we've made our way around in all of the different major areas. I mean, obviously there's lots of places we haven't been in some places that we had to You Know cover kind of superficial you but we do, you know, he's kind of covered all the different corners of it, right? So just so hard to to begin to pin that down, you know, what kind of recently about six months ago we climbed up on top of Picacho Peak over by over by Tucson and that's it. You know that we passed by that thousands of diamond. You probably have passed by a thousand times probably hundreds and and looked up at that thing and you know always kind of coveted and when you know. When are we going to get up there and bright and we finally did it?

06:26 And any of the view around that it was and of course we did it at the most spectacular possible time. It was in the in the spring and the flowers were just crazy and in as far as you can see would see, you know, Forest of wildflowers in and you know, of course everybody else was out there preciate it preciate it so, you know, it was a huge social event. So that was that was really special but I have to say I'm on it but that's right off the interstate, you know among the favorites for me really are and in general just to kind of put in as a footnote the Sonoran Desert covers three US states and three Mexican states

07:10 So, you know, it's pretty extensive. If you if you go with stay from Northern Phoenix all the way down to the tip of the Baja. That's that's a huge area. I don't know what that is, but something like fifteen hundred miles and you know, probably even as the crow flies so so, you know, there's so many different things but I think you know, I ate as a favorite spot maybe not as a favorite individual memory, but you know for years there we would go down into the Sierra pinacate is Right which are it was kind of part of a of a of a general biosphere that includes places like the Cabeza Prieta Mountains and the right and Organ Pipe National Monument Saint and you know, the the the wildlife there and the and the plant life there have got to be, you know among the most spectacular that

08:10 Shall we we've ever seen not to mention the fact that the geology of that shield volcano in the end the giant Mark Raiders and so on so as a favorite location, you know that that really has to be at but you know favorite moments our favorite excursions. I mean like the time we went out to eat we hiked way back into the galley Euro mountains on foot and we must have been you know, 15 miles from the nearest dwelling or something in the end, you know, not meeting anybody else out there for 3 days at 4 or 4 days. I think it was three days. I think it was two nights and oh, no it what you're right. It was three nights and

08:54 And you know that at the time of the year when when was it was spring so they're wildflowers then to believe but but they were also there was also running water in there with you know, it doesn't happen all year in and of course that's it, you know an extreme Rarity. I think there are two continuously running body is water in all of Arizona, but at that time that one we had to cross and re-cross that that water is in a course, you know, it was really hard work cuz we're carrying backpacks and all that but you know just as well as a favorite memory just it just the feeling of being that far from anyting and like you said that the trip that we would that we made through the back side of the Copa mountains that that was absolutely spectacular that was that was another really wet spring and you're the wildflowers were even more amazing, but

09:54 Yeah, we we we had a vehicle with a bad time, right, you know, which actually can get you in even more trouble sometimes because you know, there's always the opportunity to get stuck but we were really far away from anything there. But you know, at least we had we had a vehicle that you know, so I don't know it's just it's just really hard to pin down any any particular memory. I mean the two week trip that we took all the way down to the tip of Baja and seeing all those amazing in dirt and diverse places, right? So and is so if you know including a lot of Shoreline, so I think it's just almost impossible to to to to pick any kind of favor mean we live here in Yuma on near the mouth of the Colorado River which of course is an iconic, you know location in United States drains. You don't have to

10:54 Country. So even even just where we're sitting right here. Just a quarter of a mile from the from the river, you know on that, you know, the downtown area down here. Yeah. It's it's almost like they're all they're all equally great. What are the reasons? I love Pina Cartier was because that's kind of an origin story for us for our relationship when we were very first met we went down into the camping trip to pinacate and that was at a time when I don't know about you while you you were born and raised in the Sonoran Desert, so really I suppose I ought to be interviewing you but you know that that was at a time when it with the way back when I've had first begun doing these Explorations. And so, you know, I didn't know anything about what I was seeing. It was just the experience your eyes just the beauty of it that you just the aesthetic beauty of it. I couldn't tell you anything about the history of

11:54 Or the you know the geology or or the biology or any of that kind of thing. It was just it was just the you know, the amazing share of your isn't being in the in the beautiful weather, of course, because in the winter time and you know, and and sometimes it would rain down there and things like that, so it's just it's just all an amazing experience what let me let me take you back to the vet story about Picacho when we climbed Picacho Peak there.

12:26 Near Tucson when you are at the very top of that Peak, I remember you taught looking on the back side and just talking about, you know, kind of how gorgeous it was to see the desert laid out before us and the see the colors of the flowers. Even from the top of that Peak could see these waves kind of these filled right and everything looks so soft and green from that far away. When you see that and you kind of think about taking care of this beautiful place where we live what thoughts come to your mind. What are you thinking about your question there because one of my one of my obsessions I guess is always been you're really pretty much ever since before I even became an adult has been, you know, the protection of the end and preservation of of the planet because you can kind of see how it if you can you can see from decade to decade how it gets degraded.

13:25 Yeah, this many people traveling on it. And then of course, you know that all the improvements in technology and of course the increasing wealth and all that kind of thing that I'll just trying to get multiplied together. And so, you know, it is nature never improves it always two grades and end in a being here for 30 years. I can I can just kind of see areas did become developed in an urban sprawl and and you know new projects and you know, just all all all kinds of the thought of insults for life of a better word that happened to the to the to the landscape but you don't speak in Picacho specifically a ninja says a random example eating out in other words things that have happened but also course plans for things are going to happen then end.

14:24 One of the one of the plans on the table right now, it's it and it's you know advance to a pretty it is got to a pretty Advanced point is now they're supposed to be on Interstate that goes parallel to the one that already exists there Interstate 8 or I guess is actually 10 right there next to Picacho but there's supposed to be a new one just south of there Interstate 11 that is supposed to come up from no gallus and cut through several valleys that haven't been developed in the course, then that'll cause development there. And and so where you're talking about looking down on the south side of the Picacho Peak now is the ideas there will be a new interstate down there. You'll be looking at rather than fields of wildflowers and so on and you know, I said there's if there's an old saying, you know, you can't stop progress and stuff like that. But at some point you just really have to ask yourself, you know how much it is really nasty.

15:24 Harry

15:26 Sew-in end. That's just a random example. You can just kind of Point all kinds of things something a little bit more the closer to home. Now. We've just had you think a special city council session on water allocation. And so something is happening now is that weird that I I guess I guess the way it works is a corporation that wants to develop say in order to Tituba to make a Housing Development somewhere completely, you know hundreds of miles from here will buy a bunch of the farmland and then they get through the water right for that and then they get to to Reena reallocate that water to another another area of the state and I and I think that the one word that one is the immediate one that we're talking about now is actually in that same area. It's it's visible from you know, the the top of Picacho Peak.

16:26 I forget the name of it, but I don't want to slander anybody anyway, but you know, basically I forget I think it was something like 450 acres of Farmland up near Parker has has been in Old bought bought up in the so now the Farmland will go will go will no longer be used but the water will go into the central Arizona project in and end up down there out with a new development. So you just have to ask yourself how appropriate it is to to be expanding out into areas where there is no water to support that so yeah, right and it just goes on and on and on me and things that are that have hat have happened years and years ago like this past.

17:13 For the first half of the year. I had the great privilege of of not having to work. I got a sabbatical so that I could just do these desert Explorations Indiana right about them and and mostly As you'll recall what we use that for was that we explored the lower half of the he'll Rider the part of the portion of the Hilo be basically beginning a human going Upstream to Phoenix and and that was something that it was kind of a big gap in in in in our Explorations over the years. We've never actually got down to do that and now kind of reading up on the history of that, you know, the Healer no longer Flows at all, and he used to be a significant River Oaks close above ground. Is it Subterranean? I suppose there are parts of it that

18:13 That sort of flow below ground crank, but for the most part, you know any water that we take from The Gila River Valley is is definitely you know groundwater but there used to be basically a continuous Masky forest from you all the way up to let you know about Phoenix and it's just it's all gone now and near the water's gone and and the populations who live there are gone. And of course you've had, you know, a huge impact on the wildlife and so on so, you know, I I could go on and on like that and I'm sure you could find other people who could who could you know, give you much more detail but those are just a few random things that I've observed. So I was this summer you and I got a chance to do some hiking and not in the Sonoran Desert kind of the edge of the Sonoran Desert up in Greer and I remember telling you that

19:12 We had this beautiful afternoon out hiking got caught in a rainstorm did a big climb. It was gorgeous that I needed more experience in the wild. I needed to get out in the wild more often. And so I think that's one of the things I appreciate about our relationship is that you're good at pushing me to do stuff like that. Even though as you said, I grew up in the Sonoran Desert, I think you know, I had done some exploring with my parents and my brother but you and I really got out and did a lot more hiking and camping and backpacking than I had ever done before. So I wonder if you you know, what do you think about wild experiences? What's the value of getting out and getting wild me to just exploit the the resources is because we we don't worry. We aren't intimately familiar with it. I think I love her a lot of people if they were.

20:12 If they did get out and see it and experience it just on the ground, you know what their own it with their own eyes and and here's that, you know, maybe they wouldn't be quite as willing to like these may be looking for a fur Alternatives and and maybe even and I think you know how to answer a question on a larger scale, you know, maybe maybe two to realize on a get a kind of on a global scale that does the same thing happens everywhere right is that this is just what's immediately around us and that you know, it's valuable in itself and we really are protected and then by extension, you know, if you were somewhere else you'd see similar kinds of problems and you and you'd feel the same way about that. So that just my kind of a ripple effect.

21:10 You know me maybe we would all begin to get a lot more concerned about what's going on and you know, all the examples I mentioned are kind of I really just kind of localized. It's like well, you know, look what happens now that there's no more water in this in this really large areas matter fact because the Gila River begins way over in New Mexico and comes all the way to Yuma and sew in the Innocence. I mean the Gila River is the Sonoran Desert. I mean, it's it's kind of difficult defines the Sonoran Desert in a major way. But so so, you know, you can you can just say well you don't look what happened to that spot what happened to that spot and I used to be a forest here and so on but really when it comes down to it, even if there were no problems like that we have to really seriously be thinking about what we're doing in terms of climate change and you know, just as a as a

22:10 As a footnote to that they were it's sad that you know that the Sonoran Desert specifically will be one of the hardest hit one of the most immediately had an end in the most major way. We were just talking about a talking to a the politician the other day who said that the end is they were anticipating a 6-degree spike in the in the temperature in in the in the Sonoran Desert specifically he was talking about Phoenix and you know, that's quite a bit more than what is anticipated globally. So the Sonoran Desert is going to be one of the hardest-hit and you know, the the incredible diversity of of

22:57 Wildlife in in in a plant life that you see around Tucson and rain on the time on Autumn reservation in down to pee tecates and so on it, you know where the 6th degree rise, you know we have to anticipate is going to start looking like the Sahara or something and so that you know to it to me that's just it just isn't acceptable when you know, we have to we have to figure something out here and you know, even if it means giving up some of the Privileges that we insist on

23:29 So when you talk about, you know, threaten biodiversity, it kind of makes me take me back to real specific experiences that we've had and I'm no botanist. I'm I'm no biologist either but we have we've had the privilege of seeing some amazing Wildlife out in the desert. So I thought it would be fun to remember that one. What may be one of the most shocking was seeing a herd of Sonoran Pronghorn in panic at a single wildlife experience that we ever had because you know at that time especially I think I think they say that the Sonoran Pronghorn has has bounced back a little bit but at that time it was at a at a real low point and I remember the number 300 for some reason and and you know, the the little heard that we just saw what you're just standing next to the g-files only looked up.

24:29 And we saw this hurt over there and that must have been half of them right there. And we've told other people about that we told the the park ranger at being a cocktail and she said that's just incredible. You know, I've never seen that so we were we were just you know, so privileged and lucky to see that but right, you know, that's a that's a good example of of degradation right there, like even though you know, maybe we have managed to to bring a population back up again and still it's critically endangered but just to give another example of of the degradation near the pinna Cottage there it kind of at the beginning of what we call the desert and The Devil's Highway near sonoyta Mexico on your lukeville, which runs across in all the way to the Tina house all those mountains and you near near Yuma that there's a there's a really special.

25:28 Spring there, and it was where people used to load up on water. And obviously it's extremely important to the wildlife. Well, you know, one of the things that's one of the unique aspects of the of the Sonoran Desert is that it's in two countries. And of course, the two countries has its it divides the US and Mexico and an insole course, there's all the political implications of of migration of people right and you know, you're not you're not in obviously but you know, I don't need to go into the all of the aspects of that. But so one of the things we're doing now courses is picking certain places where we can kind of get away with putting up a wall. And so they're they're working on putting that 40 foot. Wall right down through Organ Pipe National monument and that.

26:28 Spring I was talking about quitobaquito is renal cyst. Right on the board has no way that you can put a wall through there without just basically destroying that his story has been there for thousands of years, obviously so and and maybe even slightly more importantly than that is that, you know, something like the Sonoran Pronghorn which which needs a huge range right now to be able to migrate back and forth from north to south if you block that off it will it will surely, you know, basically kill off that that species because it won't be able to do what it's you know, what kind of program to do, right?

27:11 I have another really stunning Wildlife memory and that's when

27:17 We got done with a backpacking trip with a group of friends in aravaipa Canyon and we were driving the car away from the trailhead and right in the middle of the road was this big bushy tarantula. He just looks so proud and I couldn't hit the brakes fast enough so might the chassis of my car, you know it right over the top of them, but I didn't hit him cuz he was squarely underneath me but then we stopped a car and we hopped out and we just went over and kind of hunker down and looked at him he was so beautiful. You know, we know people who have been camping out in the desert for one reason or another like way out in the middle of nowhere and and had hold tarantula migration passed over them.

28:17 What is Passover them? Right so, you know seeing Wonder Angela probably doesn't it isn't really that impressive. But since you mentioned aravaipa Canyon, I mean, I guess if I had to take two spots in in the Sonoran Desert that I would say have got to be these the most beautiful I would say aravaipa Canyon is one of them because that's one of the two rivers in Arizona that rides all the time and that's just you know that the spectacular down in there is it's a it's a canyon that has a free flowing water and of course, you know, lots of tall trees and you know sycamores and all kind of thing or the other place I would have to name is me you might have to help me with the name on this but when we were over by the chiricahuas there, you know, there's a there's a canyon kind of on the northeast side where where you know that they have a lease.

29:17 Used to go out. They still do have cabins that you can oh portal portal. So I want to say Oak Creek, but that Sycamore Creek feels like it has Oak in the name of it. But but that's a that's a true deciduous forest there. Right and we were there in the in the fall when all the leaves were and and it was you know, we saw all kinds of things like a little herds of javelina and right here and kuwata Mundi, but but just just the the air. It's in there. You can kind of see it from a long ways away is just as beautiful wooded area that for whatever reason it it it just has it is just exceptionally Lush right in there. But the memory of that night was we went out for an evening hike right and we were coming back and it was

30:17 It was starting to get dark and all of a sudden we start seeing these things can a floating around us and it was the kuwata Mundi with their tails that was picking up their big bushy tails. And so they were sort of all coming across the canyon the same direction that we were and that kind of all walking at the same speed and their tails were at the same level look like one great big, you know organism coming towards us but it was about twenty-five kuwata Mundi both javelina and maybe not unique to the Sonoran Desert, but certainly representative of the Sonoran Desert Rain types of things. I never even heard of it before I am out here, right? So another Wildlife memory happened right in the air by the canyon. We were hiking out talk about that. I almost stepped on a rattlesnake it was again, it was April and it was and you know again, you know,

31:17 Are our weather is warming up and and you know every year we have a few or cold days and and it warms up soon or in all that kind of thing. And and that was that was what was happening here was that it wasn't really time for the snakes to be out but it was unusually warm. So, you know, I'm just minding my own business hiking across the trail Darren and you know, I'm carrying a pack so I got my head down and so I didn't even see it till I was right on top of it and you know it instinctively suck my pole out it just kind of it as you know it to defend myself or whatever and it was coiled and I missed it by a millimeter, you know, and then then managed to jump out of the way. So I don't know I guess that was that was one of the close calls that we've had out there. I suppose we had some other close calls, you know, almost falling off cliffs and stuff like that, but that that

32:17 That was a memorable one right there right now. We've seen a few you've heard a few that we didn't see but you know, they're everywhere out there. So I guess that's the that's another side of it. All right is 10mm have no respect for me as well as a love me. Right? So you talk a little bit about this project you worked on a project to your sabbatical all about the Sonoran Desert and the key concept was sense of place and I want to know if I could you just talk a little bit about why sense of place is important kind of what I was referring to earlier on was that you know, if we can somehow connect with the environment around us rather than sort of shutting it out or or you know, I think there's something built into our culture and I can take it but a couple of different ways but you know the the idea going back to probably the beginning of Ra.

33:17 And everything else you notate it to dominate nature and basically team is Sir and exploited not like kind of thing and then so so it really goes back to the beginning and Western Civilization may be the beginning of all civilizations. I don't really know but you know, I want one way of thinking about it. Is that okay civilization? However, you wanted to find that but a lot of of cultures have an end, of course these types of cultures are dying out. But but mostly what we would call indigenous cultures know that the cultures of people who for not even Generations, but, you know way big mud something much bigger than Millenia the people who who, you know come from that land probably seemed to be a little bit more.

34:17 Interested in preserving it and not only that but they probably look Beyond preserving it to actually feeling as if they're part of it and and connecting to the indigenous peoples in the Amazon as a really good example. So and so when you know an outside culture comes in they just don't have the same connection to it and you know don't don't feel beholden to feel motivated to to preserve it but rather to exploit it and and you know try to extract all of the resources and and you know, maybe move on to the next thing to be exploited. So maybe if we could somehow learn from those cultures that that seem to have been able to coexist, you know in a symbiotic relationship with nature then maybe we have a chance of you know, beginning to turn around to their the prices that were facing.

35:19 So so you let you know I just felt like the most important thing I could possibly do to you. Don't get my two cents worth in 2 to the sort of articulate that that position and you know articulate the idea of that and it's not just a matter of preserving it it's a matter of I mean, I I don't think we're ever going to be motivated to preserve it unless we actually have that, you know can develop that actual sense of Consciousness about it so that it's that that were really part of it rather than being something completely separate because we're just not right. I want to ask on take a moment to ask him. What what gives you hope for the Sonoran Desert?

36:06 Well, I don't know. You know, I've had a couple interactions with some of the native peoples who seem to still you know, I have that that that feeling about it and you know, I don't want to speak for them. But I think if if I were one of them myself I probably would be a little bit of resentment. But in any case, you know about about what it what it used to be versus what it is now, but you know so that I feel like going to the continued existence of some of those cultures.

36:43 It is it is a spot of of Hope where you know, if we can do it if they can continue to articulate the the philosophy that they've always had and try to keep that word out there and stand their ground and that that's an essential piece of it. I said, I would say if nothing else and of course, you know, I know a few people here and there but I guess you know, I guess the the answer that everybody would like to hear would be optimistic one, but I'm afraid that if I had to lean one way or the other I probably would feel a little bit more pessimistic about it all because when I look at it what's happened over?

37:38 Pretty much I guess the hundred years and and and also see pretty much on a daily basis literally on a daily basis some new for pozole. You know, some new some news some advancing, you know issue like I was talking about the water allocation or the the wall, you know and in Organ Pipe in that kind of thing that mostly what I see is we're going the wrong direction.

38:10 Well, you have any questions for me about my life in the Sonoran Desert. So I mean literally I guess you've lived your entire life and you went to what yummy you went to college and in Flagstaff, which is outside the Sonoran Desert, you know still in in Arizona. So, you know, you probably have more of a perspective on it than I do and you of course obviously, you know, you've been on virtually all of the trips that I've been on what you've done it all together. So I'm you know, you probably just start, you know asking you the same questions you ask me. I'm I'm sure that you have and I'll just as intelligent answers as I do. Well I could tell you that so I grabbed my parents took me to the Sonoran Desert museum Arizona Sonora Desert Museum multiple times world-class Museum in Tucson, Arizona, but and I was a Girl Scout

39:10 I got you some stuff outside, but you know, it's been an incredible pleasure and an honor to be your partner in exploring the Sonoran Desert. It's absolutely been a total thrill.

39:26 So I have loved doing it.

39:32 I guess you were going to ask me about the sources or something, but I guess I could spend a lot of time. I think we are.