Luciana Herman and Lauren Rosenberg

Recorded March 6, 2020 Archived March 19, 2020 35:20 minutes
0:00 / 0:00
Id: ddf000501

Description

Luciana Herman (36) speaks with her colleague and professor Dr. Lauren Rosenberg (56) to reflect on the different way of life that military families live, and how this shapes military children's upbringings and military spouses’ relationship dynamics.

Subject Log / Time Code

LH speaks about the importance of documenting the history and lives of military wives and families, to form a multimodal history of military life.
LH shares the story of a picture a daughter drew a week before her husband’s deployment, and what it is like when he is deployed. LH discusses the way her children “play deployment” during this time, and her experiences parenting by herself.
LH and LR speak about the NMSU study on family trauma, and therapeutic storytelling. LH mentions children and civilian reactions to service member trauma, and how trauma for veterans can be a foregone conclusion.
LH speaks about her family not having a military lineage, her children’s military interests, and the family dynamic with her traditional family not understanding military life. LH recalls meeting her husband in college.
LH talks about teaching writing at West Point Academy, and speaks about why she and her husband have chosen the military after 9/11.
LH talks about parenting with her kids communicating with their father on weekends, and how the kids prepare questions and things to show him over video conferencing.
LH speaks about the difficulty and resentment of not comparing accomplishments and lifestyle with other spouses and families, the rate of divorce in the military, and the necessary respect for individual desires instead of sacrifice for your spouse that she and her husband share.

Participants

  • Luciana Herman
  • Lauren Rosenberg

Recording Locations

Milton Hall

Venue / Recording Kit

Partnership


Transcript

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00:00 Okay, I'm Lauren Rosenberg and I'm 56 years old. Today is March 6th 2020 and where in the krwg studio at New Mexico State University in Las Cruces, and I'm here with you Luciana Herman my interview partner. I know you since August of last year when you started the PHD program at the University of Texas, El Paso, and you're currently a student at is working. I'm working with a number of classes and I get to work with you on your teaching and also get to know you and your family and hear your stories about your life as a military spouse.

00:44 Thank you aren't my name is Luciana Herman and I'm 36. Today is March 6th 2020. We are in Las Cruces New Mexico at NMSU campus and back and Lauren Rosenberg is my interview partner and she is you are my mentor friend and teacher.

01:04 Okay good. So so I wanted to start a conversation by just asking you why you wanted to do this project. Why what true you to the military voices initiative? I believe strongly in talking to other military spouses and learning and that we as a collective have an incredible experience and that we can learn from each other. And when I found out about the initiative, I was really interested in what's already been archived. And then once I figured out that I could be part of it too. I was very attracted to me given my current research interests, which is to build em and multi-modal archive narrative Archive of military family and service life experiences. So I thought this would be a really fun way to 4 a.m. To do my research interest you were saying as we were getting ready for this interview that that you and your husband have both been kind of aware of storycorps for a long time and then

02:04 He had some had done some research into it. Can you talk about that a little bit? Yeah, he my husband has his Master's in military history from the University of North Texas in Denton and part of some of the professional development that they did there was writing reviews specifically he focusing a lot of oral history. So he did a review actually think he did to on storycorps the national initiative and what it means and being an open-source and things of that nature. So he was actually really excited when I told him I was doing this today that oh my gosh, this is so great. I love I love story Corps everything they do is so cool. And so he was thrilled that I was going to get to be part of the core. It's great. You just mentioned a couple minutes ago that you were interested in building in archives part of your academic work, but also that you have an interest in preserving service life. Can you say something?

03:04 But that shirt we a lot of times the veteran and the service member we get a lot of narratives from them. We is it as a culture could have let him narratives from them about what they've weathered how it is change them what has impacted them how they have impacted the efforts of this nation, but we don't get a lot of narratives about the families in the other people that are impacted by service life specifically children spouses parents friends neighbors me really anybody because if you support a service member you're supporting the effort and that could be, you know, sending a box of Girl Scout cookies all the way down to know my children. I have two children and my daughter is 6 her name is Olivia and my son is 7 his name is Timothy and they very much serve as well. So.

04:00 There is a lot I think there's very rich narrative the the surrounds the service whether it's active veteran retired me. What have you and I would like to compile that as a more complete definition and more complete story about what it's like to serve this nation. Can you talk more about narrative? Cuz I mean, this is really interesting to me also because I do a lot of research with story and narrative and how how people construct their own stories and how they make sense of the stories that are already around them. And you were saying that that service life is all around your children and your family. So what are those what are some of those narratives look like when you in terms of your kids and your home so that's actually was born out of I brought it today is born out of a

05:00 Picture that my daughter drew about a week before my husband deployed. This is he's currently on his fourth deployment. And this one is to Afghanistan and he's been gone since July 27th, and he's slated to come home when the neighborhood of Mark May 1st. And so for about a week before he deploys, I'm a mess. Like I have all of my crying and all of my going to do this we caught the left seat right seat ride week. So where he in all of the things that he does if I have any questions about the things that he does in the house he kind of shows me plus we had just moved to El Paso last them about a month before so he had to organise the garage which was great, but he had to tell me where everything was so in the midst of all of this Delta packing and anybody who's ever seen a military member pack for deployment it is

05:56 A chaotic at best they pull out every piece of gear. They have a line it all up because they have packing list of their required and if there's something that they're missing their to go out and get it and what have you so one night, I was earlier. It was meant July and he had everything out on the floor. So I kind of left the house. I went outside in the backyard and I was crying and I didn't want my kids to see me and Tom knows the drawers. That's my husband time. He knows the girl said he was like whatever lady just go outside. So my daughter came out and she handed me this piece of paper and it was full bed long ways and it says mom on it and she drew the four of us. So it's my husband and me and then my son and my daughter and she Drew my husband wearing his patrol cap, which is the soft cap that he wears with his uniform and my son is also wearing a patrol cap because my son wants to be in the army.

06:56 And she handed it to me and she just in her issues five of the time very calmly and plainly said to me don't cry. Mommy. He'll be back no matter what we're still a family and I just thought well, I'm 35 and I can't deal as well as my kids do in the day that he left. I was of course a mess and they were fine and

07:22 To this day there really fine. They understand that what we are doing is a family specifically what Daddy is Doing is bigger than ourselves and I think they are inspired daily by that and it's really quite humbling because there is no better role model for my children and my husband and the people that we surround ourselves with and those who have heeded the call to serve in a very selfless manner but we all serve I mean if we ask we have asked our children to undergo a great sacrifice and there was no other choice, but they do so willingly I'm not going to say they're happy about it all the time. I mean Daddy Misses birthdays and Christmas and all those types of things, but they they don't sweat the small things the way I have seen some of our civilian friends and family their children. My kids are just like yeah, so we'll celebrate Christmas in May but whatever.

08:22 Why are you crying so it's a very it's very humbling to watch them serve as well so far for me and answer to your question are narrative. A lot of times looks like pictures. Sometimes it's dramatic play. They might my kids quote on quote play deployment where Timothy like packs all of his stuffed animals in his backpack and he has a pop gun and you like walks around the house saying he's going on a deployment and Olivia like stays in her room and then takes care of the house and the kids and she says that she's staying home staying home to do something important and Timothy's like what I'm going to do something important to and it's very interesting. It's to listen to my house isn't that big so I can hear everything and they loved it and like that's the way they deal with it.

09:22 Sometimes I make up songs. Sometimes they

09:27 Sometimes they get angry and then they draw and then they're better. So it's really interesting how their story manifest itself for them. Sometimes they like to read books about Timothy's obsessed with military history cuz he is his father. So sometimes he like reads about World War 1 and World War 2 and he's like, well, we don't have it so bad cuz it was way worse back then so it's very interesting frame of reference and something that I'm very humbled to watch as a parent and as a spouse and just as an American

10:06 So when they're playing these games and you can hear them, what are you? What are you doing when you say you feel humbled? So you just taking it in sometimes I laugh and I wrote one down like a note in my phone. So I could tell my husband because I said so with him being deployed and the time difference is is actually quite great right now. It's 10 and a half hours. I thinking of actually this weekend it'll be nine and a half hours, but do I have to write everything down that I want to tell him because I can't remember and it I don't get to speak to him in real time. But once a day and my children will I get to speak to him twice a week on the on Saturdays and Sundays because of the time difference. He calls me while they're at school.

10:52 Remember reporting to him that our kids were playing deployment and we were laughing hysterically because for them the dramatic play that they entered into with an Essence like an oversimplification of what they see us doing and so I thought it was hysterical that like Olivia was in her room and it comes by taking care of the house and Timothy's walking around the house with a backpack on like a patrol pack with it and underarms and he's got a he had like a civil war cap on. I mean he was dressed to the nines and Olivia's like, okay. I'll see you when you get back and I mean it was a very interesting and very sweet and honest exchange, but definitely a distilled version of what they see us doing.

11:44 That's really interesting the way they use the house to create the distance. Yes. He like went down the stairs. She stayed upstairs and he just used my appointment. That's what it looks like to you guys. Really interesting. Sometimes they also play actively they play deployment. They each have an arsenal of Nerf weapons and sometimes they fight over who's going to be the insurgents and who's going to be the good guy and they, you know, a lot of times they make stuffed animals the Insurgent so then they team up as the good guys like daddy and his friends who take on the bad guys. I mean, it just depends on the day, but it is a very sweet but over simplified version. I mean, it's a child's version of circus life.

12:35 It's really fascinating. That would be a great study 2 to look at the ways that kids play it out the way that they're kind of identifying and managing their lives through all of your lives through their play.

12:51 I wish I had that is an interesting idea. I had not thought about that because also were were very we have a lot of friends were military and they have kids. So playing army is a pretty common grammatical a game. I mean, I I don't I don't really know of any of our friends kids like when they all get together they all play army nail do it. It's cute interviews the bad guy. I mean, it's it's very interesting but I I had not thought about that. Maybe I had that there's actually a professor hear it and I miss you David Bowie be in business who is involved. There are other people in this project now and I can't recall their names but they do they do a study of military families. It's more about coping with trauma where they where they have families like play like DUIs and play box and Rihanna and re-enact the stories of their families. I mean, it's it has a completely different name.

13:51 But it's like it's like a therapeutic storytelling military family in some way shape or form whether it's indirectly or directly has dealt with some sort of, so we're we're so deep into this war now where you at least know somebody or somebody close to you has been injured. Come home or has come home very differently or I should say is a different person maybe is not does not exhibiting.

14:24 Any sort of outward wound but is fighting between their ears. We we have a lot of those stories. My children makes have a friend that we're station with at West Point. He is now getting out he's about to hit think he's a major but he he was a ranger and he lost a part of me had a below-the-knee amputation and so my children just know him, you know just know him. They never really asked about his leg, but when my cousins came to visit us

15:03 For Olivia's birthday one year this gentleman was at my daughter's birthday party and my my little cousin that the daughter she could not stop staring. But which to me as it as a civilian is a very normal reaction because if you're not used to seeing that I mean, I would be Jarred as well. I mean she was at the time so I remember speaking to them after that and I remember her saying to me, you know, what happened to his leg and Timothy very off-the-cuff was like, oh he lost it in the war.

15:40 Like it's just a foregone conclusion trauma is almost a foregone conclusion to service members and they're not to say that civilians. Don't undergo Troutman, right? It is a very apparent and 4in right in front of your face all the time. My husband lost soldiers. He lost two soldiers and one was critically wounded he shot in the head, but he survived and so that was that was a lot that was during our second second deployment. We've lost friends. We have lots of friends who deal with PTSD issues daily friends who have been medically retired and are now debilitated to the point where they can't work in a conventional setting. So it's it's not something we We heart pain, but it's something we're cognizant of and my children are also we make it we make sure that our children

16:40 The space to ask questions about those types of things because it is so normal in our lifestyle that I think that they're they need to be not weary of it but understanding understanding of other people's feelings. It's interesting. You probably didn't hear yourself say this but you were just talking about our second deployment. And and what I what I hear is that deployment and military life and all of the activity that surrounds it including some really painful experiences and effects are all about kind of normal living for for your family it is and it's it's odd because so Tom neither time nor I came from a military family. Our grandfathers were my paternal grandfather and both of his grandfathers were in World War II, but we are part of the generation

17:40 Most Grandpa's wearing when we're leaving some grandma's. So neither one of our fathers was in Vietnam, but we do have uncles and such that were in Vietnam, but we are direct lineage kind of interrupted. We don't have a direct Lineage 2 service which is also add knowing that my children even at the Young ages and of course that they could change but they both very much want to serve the military and very different capacities. Olivia wants to be a veterinarian for military working dogs and Timothy wife and then armor officer like her like his dad so it's or a military policeman depends on the day, but we

18:25 We very much have to explain things to her family's all the time because it's such an odd lifestyle. So I'm Italian and I'm from the East Coast originally and good Italian girls get married and stay up being to stay near their parents so that they can take care of their parents. Well, I didn't really do that and not that my parents begrudge me anything they don't but it is very odd. You know, what do you mean he's going again? He's already been three times we have but they don't have like a a quota if they can only go so many times that he's active duty. He has to go and even my in-laws are having a hard time wrapping their heads around the fact that he's coming home and I'm in a few months time.

19:12 And the next summer he will be deployed again. It'll be in a different Mission a different capacity. But what do you mean he has to go again? He's active duty. This is what we do. Why aren't you afraid? Yeah, but I don't like I mean, I don't get I don't have a chance to really I don't get to have an opinion about it because this is my life. And if I sat around harping about it, I would never get anything done. And also what would that show my children? I don't I don't resent the military and I don't resent my husband's called to serve and I don't want my children to resent that their daddy, you know chose something because he feels compelled to do it and this happened to me. He was in ROTC way before I met him. So this was not like a he came home one day after we've been married 10 years and said, you know what? I think I'd like to go to Afghanistan. That's not really how this work. I've always known this about him and I can actually recall one night. We were in college. We were friends in college. It's how we met and

20:12 I was friends with him and a lot of the ROTC students and we were playing cornhole which is the bean bag toss game. We're playing we went to the University of Dayton and we are but we were playing cornhole and we were not partnered. So we were standing at the same end. So we're just talkin but we had different partners in the Army. I put his ass mean cuz I knew nothing about it and he said we're really only have two goals one is to command troops in combat and one is to teach history at West Point and I thought okay. Well, that's cool. And I just logically assume that that's you know, you pick a trajectory and then that's how it goes. I had no idea that you actually have two spots like that and that you have to work craft your your career towards steps like that. So that was in probably

21:12 Large fish of our senior year we graduated in May and then we didn't start dating until October. So we were already out. He was already a commission as lieutenant and he was moving to his first Duty station, which was Fort Hood, Texas and we started dating. So our entire dating career was long distance. We did not live in the same time zone until 6 months before we were married and I had moved down to Texas and we were engaged and he came home in January. We got married on July 4th. So we will get him Italy had not spent more than like a week together until six months before we were married and we still married which is great 11 years later almost 11 years later, but I I didn't really realize what what it was I had no idea and so I was kind of like aren't cool. I'm along for the ride. Yeah, let's

22:12 Because he also never asked me he never asked me to give up anything for myself. He he knew I knew him as he was using ROTC is going to go to the Army. Oh, you're going to go to grad school teacher. That's great cool. And we've always just kind of met in the middle which has worked for us. I'm sure there's give and take on both sides. It was my choice to come to Fort Bliss so that I could go and study at you tapping at my terminal degree my PhD but it was a good fit for him to cuz this is the home of the armor. So it's it worked out. But yeah, it's kind of an interesting military life family life because we are the only ones doing it. So what do you mean he can't come to my wedding like well, they don't care if you're lucky. He got to come to our wedding funny you were talking about Tom having the school of teaching history at West Point and actually you taught writing yet.

23:12 Yes, it was an amazing opportunity. I love that and it turned into like a team effort. So he would teach his students and then he would send them to me or I would come into his class and do a workshop on and writing in Chicago style or writing academic research papers and things like that. So it worked out. I mean he has aspirations to one day get his Ph.D and digital history with emphasis on an oral history as well. So we'll see but he I think he needs to get picked up to go back to West Point for that to happen. So we'll see. I think I told you I used to being a writing group that sometimes mad at West Point is one of the members of the writing group was civilian faculty at West Point and whenever we go there which is once or twice a year, we would always worried about getting in trouble for breaking a rule like stepping on the grass.

24:12 I don't know having the wrong hair in the wrong posture and for having a water bottle that does not have a closable lid. Yes. Oh, yeah, there's lots of I mean there's a reason that that place is survived in such pristine condition.

24:28 Can you play why do you talk about Tom being already in ROTC when you met him and not and neither of you being from military background? Why did he choose to serve? So he initially his dad had thought it would be at 4 a good idea. He'd I guess as a child was interested in military service, but he wanted to be a history teacher. You want to be a high school history teacher initially and he he chose the University of Dayton, which is a private Catholic College. His sister also went there. She was two years ahead of us are three and it's not cheap in a private Catholic Education is not cheap. And so his dad had recommended to him that he join ROTC and have school paper. And of course Tom being the obstinate teenagers had no, I'm not going to do that because you know, it's my dad's idea. That's a terrible idea and then we invaded Iraq.

25:25 In March of 2003 and he and his one of his best friend Sue's roommate they watched the tanks roll into Baghdad and they said let's do it. Let's go and they both went down to the RTC office and sign on the bottom of the dotted line and fell granados. He is he's also actually he's stationed at Fort Hood right now and they signed up and that was it and he called his mom and said hey I signed up for ROTC today and she said what he didn't call his parents that there was he just he said I felt compelled and yes, they paid for his education as well. But because he was already a junior when he signed up. He owed an extra year of school. So you have to have three years of military science Ms. Classes to commission as an officer. So and I met him in his fifth year of school. So had he had had he joined ROTC from the get-go.

26:25 Probably never would have met him.

26:28 But I ended up meeting him his fifth year and I told him I said you won the lottery, but he did it and now we've been in for he's been in for almost 14 years. When does he get to retire? So for him? He can retire at 20 years if you wants to draw pension, he's done with his commitment, but he has no plans of getting out 20 years would be when you can start drawing a pension. However, he plans on re-evaluating once we had 20 and seeing where we are. Also buy that our children will be older and will be entering Timothy will be kind of entering high school. So we will take a really hard look at where we are. And where do we want to put down Roots? Do we want to put down roots? Are we done doing what we want to do for this nation, or are there more opportunities ahead for us? And then we'll kind of reevaluate then.

27:28 Or maybe you'll want Tom to move to where you go for your academic career. Well, that's the other thing is and yeah, so he if he got out that would probably be one of the most the heaviest contributing factors is do I have a spot but if we go back to West Point, I mean, is there going to be a spare maybe a spot for me there and then you can just to stay active but you just stay there if he gets a permit spot. So we'll see there so many things that are available.

28:01 So earlier you were talking about how you and Tom have a conversation every day and we can point usually during the day when your kids are at school yet usually in the morning play the late morning and then your children get to talk to him. You said two times a week Saturdays and Sundays. Yeah, so

28:25 Did the kids knowing that it's occasional? Did they do anything to prepare or did they did they plan for what they're going to tell dad sometimes so Timothy anything that comes home that's graded goes in the specific spot on my desk so that he can show Daddy because it will FaceTime with him. So it's not just by voice Olivia does the same thing. She's in kindergarten. She doesn't really have things that are graded. But if it's like a piece of art that she has made she puts it in the same spot on my desk so that she can show daddy. Sometimes they make list so recently they have been where we're making a paper chain. I told him once that the first weekend in March we can make a paper chain cuz I'm we would be close enough to May 1st that you know, the chain over take my entire kitchen. So that's what we're doing. This weekend is making a paper chain up till May 1st. He may very well be home before then, but that's the day he told them so we're going to go with that.

29:25 And so they have been knowing that we are the end is in sight. They have been making lists all the things they want to do when Daddy gets back because again, he left shortly after we got to El Paso. So a lot of our Maya and the Children's Discovery of El Paso has happened irrespective of Tom so we will go to new restaurants and daddy hasn't been here yet and we want to go to you know, Wet and Wild and there's so many that we need to show him our neighborhood hiking trail and he hasn't even met our new dog. So many things that are there they're making less and then they talk to Daddy about those types of things. They also ask him questions a lot. So Timothy again having similar interests to Tom, you know, how I asked me like Mommy, you know, who was the blah blah blah blah blah and such and such a world like Tony. I don't know right it down Daddy.

30:25 Then he and Tom will talk about like different Weaponry systems and historical. It's ridiculous my brain hurts listening to them talk but it's great because they, still very active as well as a parent which I think is important for him to still feel like he's part of the day today.

30:46 So we're getting near the end of our conversation before we run out of time. I was just wondering what you can share with other sit for military families. What about your experience? Do you think is valuable?

31:00 So I think it's valuable to recognize that everybody's experience is different and it's supposed to be I think it's really hard to not compare yourself, especially when you get into a Groove and your husband or wife or whomever your spouse has achieved in a different milestones in their career as a spouse. Sometimes it's hard not to compare will how come so and so's husband is doing such and such and it's it's not it. I mean that's one of the benefits of service life is that there are so many different avenues that you can take and still serve the greater Mission. So I think that's something that I've learned along the way I buy it by Nature not a typically a very jealous person to begin with but sometimes it is really hard not to compare like what how come this family is only deployed once and we've deployed four times or how come this guy only goes for 6 months and

32:00 Have to go 492 a year. I mean sometimes it's hard but the comparison is the thief of Joy so I think that's valuable and additionally

32:10 Something that makes it work for Tom and me cuz we're also at the point in our career where a lot of people are choosing to separate divorce, you know, it's it puts a terrible strain on your family. But something that makes it work for us is that I am still Luciana and he is still Tom so it yes, I am also mrs. Herman. I am also Mom, I wear a lot of different hats but he is never asked me to be anything other than Luciana and he's always supported my oh my harebrained schemes. He loves the fact that I'm getting my PhD even though it's put in an incredible strain on us as financially and with childcare and he has never once said, you know, maybe you should give that up so you can stay home. I mean, that's just not who he is. He is very excited to come home and help and I've never really asked him.

33:10 Wanted to do anything other than become so for us we just were still eat. We're still who each other always has been and we will respect we're respectful of each other. We honor each other and we we make the choice to be together. So it's it works for us, but there are a lot of times where if you don't have as a military spouse, if you don't have your own thing, especially moving around all the time, you can resentment can creep in and I know for myself I have to have my own thing. I have to feel you know, academically fulfilled because I'm an academic. That's who I am. So I've been able to MacGyver a career.

33:54 What's in elvive. Everywhere? We've left even if it's been online. I have I have kept my foot in the pool every where we lived and I think that for me Luciana has made all the difference. So when I'm entering young spouses or fiance's or whatever and they say what how do you make it work? I said you have to be you. I mean, yeah, it's fun to be somebody else's wife. But I'd much rather just be myself to tell you what I'm at a military man. I don't introduce myself as mrs. So-and-so because a lot of times people will attach rank to that and I don't I'm not in the Army. I don't wear a rank and my husband will also walk up to everybody that I'm Tom which is usually doesn't happen this in a typical response, but that's the way we are. We're just timing would, we just make it work?

34:46 That's great. I think unless there's anything else you want to mention. We're at the end of our time. I really appreciate you taking the time and rearranging your schedule. So you could come and interview me today. I hope that you enjoyed my my musings. My pleasure. Thank sweet Alana will see you in class.