Margaret Woody and Claudia Marshel

00:00 Create. Go ahead. Hi. My name is Margaret Woody and I am well going on. 63 years old. I'm 62 right now. Out. Today, is Wednesday, February, 24th, 2021. I'm located in the city of Richmond, Virginia. And I am my OS one small step is Claudia.

00:35 And is it Marshall?

00:44 Okay, and I am Claudia marshel. I am 59 years old.

00:50 Today's date is February 24th, 2021. I am also in Richmond, Virginia. And my conversation partner is Margaret Woody and the kids my OSF partner.

01:08 Ann-Margret.

01:13 Not sure what was number, 713.

01:17 Korean born of the first wave of international adoptees. Brought to the USA in 1958.

01:26 As an infant. She was adopted by white American couple gaming, naturalized American citizen, in April, 1961.

01:36 Our first 18 years, I threw up a Readington, Township New Jersey. One of 19 without the persons of color and a white Anglo-Saxon, Protestant or white Catholic Community.

01:51 The only reason we could survive was because we were active in scope and church, mother was New Jersey's young mother of the year in 1967.

02:04 Claudia is a 59 year old white married lesbian, her wife and her have 3 daughters. A significant moment in her life was walking her daughter's to the bus stop in the morning. After the so-called marriage amendment was a voted for by over 50% of her neighbors. It was sad and scary to realize that. So many of her neighbors believed that her family should not exist.

02:38 She is a clinical social worker focused on working with adopted children, who have attachment issues. So reforming, the child welfare system is very important to her.

02:51 Thank you all for doing that and gets out with it. All right, so I'm going to go ahead and post our first question. Each of you are going to take 5 minutes to tell the other your life story as best as you can. And I will let you Margaret go first.

03:11 Hi.

03:13 I was in the Bandon post, Korean War Orphan. And as The Story Goes, I was found in the trash after the Korean War, the country was devastated, and it took decades to repair it, not thinking US helped do that. But I was picked up by a Catholic nun and taken to the Isabel orphanage and poops on South Korea. And that Korean orphanage was a mess. I was dying of malnutrition. I was over three months old had, no, no food or drink. I really look like bad. I had 42 boils all over my body and I still have some scars for that. I love my hair short, but I can't do it short because I have bald spots in my head from that else and I have and I don't wear bikinis because I've got like

04:13 That look like vaccination marks, you know, all over my back and my legs and my hips, but obviously a. But anyway, quickly, I wanted to say that I was picked up by Molly, Holt and Harry Holt. She was the daughter of nurse of daughter of Harry Holt, which was the first person to do International adoptions in 1955. He was as crazy Evangelical Lumberjack who who started international adoption. And he basically,

04:51 Was responsible for bringing the Korean orphans to the United States in the 50s first wave. And the reason they picked me up off of the floor. Molly was looking for the babies who have died yet in this orphanage and I was laying on the floor with a bunch of infants and I gave her and they dr.cho who's still alive. Look like you had better pick me up. They saw me looking at him in my eyes, following him around in the room. So they felt like they needed to pick me up. They said this one will survive.

05:28 And that's why they picked me up and they picked up me. And another little boy who had given up. Pretty much his name was whining. John Wang mini Wang John. And he was brought to with me and Molly, Holt carried us, 36 hours from the time. She picked us up process started her. Our adoption with the Reverend. Dr. David Kim. And sent us on a plane, a cargo plane with a hundred or so other baby orphans in these little shoebox type of things, you know, and they came to the United States. We were sent flown to her home in Creswell, Oregon. And my potential adoptive mother, Julie, lurky and Kurt and father, Kurt Lurkey from Whitehouse, New. Jersey met them took a plane and met them in Oregon in Creswell, Oregon where the original Holt.

06:26 Adoption agency with started. Anyway.

06:31 And I've lived in Whitehouse New Jersey for the first eighteen years of my life. I'm one of 19 adopted multiracial children of color in a different abilities adopted by this one couple and we grew up in an organic farm, you know and ghost chickens in the garden whole deal. And we also grew up with some races on the, especially when my black brother was adopted the Klu Klux Klan, burned a cross on our yard and burn down our Christmas tree, in the front yard and threw a brick in our house. That was like in 19656, something like that, and he has his own story. But all of us have some crazy stories about our beginning. None of us have Bloodlines together. Our DNA is not match with

07:31 Except for those two adopted Twins. And then of course, my mother is to a natural-born children, who were way older. We range in age from 75 to 2:54 at this time, you know, but seven of us are gone now, but I, I was sexually abused by one of my adopted brother's as a kid and that was a big thing. But we've worked at out over the years through many, much therapy and my main interest in life. Now, I'm a Christian I was brought up Christian, but not that Evangelical kind that was brought me over here. I'm more of a what would Christ do type of kitchen? The real Christ. Yo the Palestinian black Jew, what would he do? You know, and where is

08:31 Holy Spirit in this situation. Yeah, that kind of thing. And I am an Episcopalian right now, and let's see a basically, I'm studying anti-racism everything, I could get my hands on. I'm studying. I took a class in in contemplatively healing prayer and Trauma historical. Trauma.

08:57 Heal and Collective, trauma and God knows what else at Richmond Hill. And I learned how to be contemplatively and how to basically pray my way through.

09:09 But anyway, I developed an eating disorder from the time. I was an infant and I had issues with that, you know, picking and that, you know, when I was kid and basically, that's it, but I'm, I'm pretty well-off and healthy right now. I think it's all one day at a time.

09:38 I'm sorry, we had to step in really quick. Cuz did you all see me? Like drop out. But yes, okay weird. I wanted you to have to keep my camera off for a little bit. But I just wanna let you all know. That's the reason why they're I sent a message earlier, letting you know that, but it's okay. He went a little bit over because, obviously, you a computer was not.

10:07 Yeah.

10:10 Hopefully we can still be able to hang in, but I'm watching and I might rain that now let's just keep moving forward. So then Claudia you have before for 5 minutes to go ahead and share with Margaret your life story as best as you can. Thank you.

10:29 The, my story is not quite as dramatic.

10:33 On the 4th of five children born to my mom and dad and I was born in New Orleans and grew up there. I was part of a very large Catholic Family. My mom was one of 11 children and I have 40 something first cousins. So they big family in pretty close-knit. Growing up. My parents were divorced when I was three. So,, the single mother of five children ranging in ages from 1 to 8, and my father was pretty much.

11:18 Not involved the rest of my life. He would show up.

11:28 Yeah, not much, but we had that big family and I was literally in high school. Before I realized I had turned broken home applied to us, like, oh wait. You don't know that we have struggled in some ways. We were kind of free-range kids because my mom was working and she wasn't working. She was sleeping. So

11:53 I know I went to a Catholic school was very well nurtured by the nuns that I sometimes say, Ray had a big part in raising. I went to get my undergraduate degree as I want to be a clinical social worker. Just how I ended up in Virginia and that was

12:26 35 years ago.

12:29 I have no intention of staying but here I am all your professional contacts. And so I just got this job and then I got the next job.

12:44 I was a late bloomer in terms of coming out 30 before I came out and then

12:54 And then I decided that.

12:57 I had decided that I was going to have a baby whether or not I got married or not because that's the point. I was in my early thirties, like okay, well time to do it and then it seems I made that decision also came out. So I postponed the baby for a couple weeks but had her on my own and then warned that the woman who became my life 2 years after that. And then we had our other two girls.

13:32 I so, you know, I became a Suburban housewife which was never in any way shape or form my in my place to have happened but no girl was really

13:48 Hey, she said she needs you to do well and no babysitter or and childcare so worker, in my wife was a corporate business person. So people always ask if so, how did you decide who would stay home because, you know, husbands and wives don't have to make that decision. It's automatic. Anyway, we decided that financially, it would be better than one. That's, you know, I got older and start working part-time and came into this attachment work, probably about 9 or 10 years ago and

14:36 Just love the work that we do help and family. If you are struggling with kids who are having attachment issues.

14:46 Figure out how to meet their needs and he'll help heal them and their family. So thank you. Thank you both for going through that exercise. And then moving on to some of the more interesting things about the pace, right? So we're getting right into it. Claudia. I'll do this to you first and then Market you can take it up and you have some time to explore this. You're not. The question is, what is your earliest memory of politics?

15:36 I guess some part of depends on. What, how do you define politics of the protest of the Vietnam War? And then

15:53 The shooting at the college the name of which I am blanking on right now in Ohio State.

16:08 Quickly followed in my memory by Nixon's resignation.

16:20 Yeah.

16:23 Again, depends on how you Define politics, but certainly the Vietnam War was their political.

16:33 Would you have more of that question? That's all you got. That's all you got, and it's okay.

16:43 Margaret. You have the flu with the question now as well. My first memory politics. Why goodness? We were always sort of political cuz my whole adoption was sort of political, you know, my mother had two told us how she had to write letters to Congress, you know, in order to get us over here and she wrote a letter to Senator Harrison Williams in New Jersey. Who and she said she in the bunch of these women. My first memory of politics believe it or not, was watching Winston Churchill's funeral on television.

17:25 My mother wanted that she was a teacher. So she had this and watching all of the major events, you know, and and also, of course, you know, everybody also the second major memory was when I was in kindergarten John F. Kennedy was assassinated and we got home from school early from that and

17:51 I was really kind of didn't understand it cuz I was child, but but I did understand the fact that the president had died, you know, and so we were all sent home from school. My second major memory, of course, was watching the Vietnam War on television during dinner, you know, also seeing the news Lee Harvey Oswald. We saw him being shot on television. That was really weird, you know, and then another memory was yunos seeing the news footage.

18:34 4.

18:37 The job RFK being killed.

18:41 In and remember how awful that was, you know, and how we were all crying, you know, because we really like RFK, you know, and Robert Kennedy and also politically watching television. The I Have a Dream thing with Martin Luther King, you know, I was very attuned to politics even as a child because my mother exposes to a lot of it, you know, my mother was a teacher and she wanted us to be aware of the world because she wanted us to be aware of helping the world, you know, and my and I also there was that political thing that happened sort of politics, but you know, mostly racial, which was what happened in our home, you know, regarding

19:42 The adoption of my brother Michael.

19:45 Let you know and then another thing that was political, which again, it depends on how you define political. But my brother Michael, that same brother, who was racially profiled, you know, we lived in a pretty affluent area, you know, in the world. Yo, and his friends were all white, but he got arrested and put in jail when he was 18 and I lost like his college scholarship and he ended up in Yardville Penitentiary. Now if, you know, and it ruined his life, it ruined his life, I mean, it ruined his life because he would came out very angry.

20:31 You know, and then I also remember the decentralisation of mentally ill people or the year were, they took him out of the

20:41 That was with the what was Geraldo Rivera, you know, when they mentally ill people out of the institutions, you know, someone and started the whole group home thing. Well, my sister I had a sister adopted sister and I won't name names, you know, but my adopted sister was has schizophrenia and yeah, I remember the whole political thing about whether she should go to the hospital where she should go, as she sits a home. You know, that was huge. I also remember the race to space, you know, I was 11 years old, when the moon landing happened and we watched it on television outside. And, you know, we set up the TV facing the outside porch and we all

21:34 I watched it like, continuously on the porch.

21:39 Courtney, are you typing?

21:44 Okay, there's some there's something from clicking noise coming from somewhere else, but thank you.

21:59 Did we pause there?

22:02 I just interrupted you remember when Martin Luther King was shot because I was in school April, 4th 1968. I was in the fourth grade and my teachers came in and they were all crying. One of them her false eyelash came off cuz she was crying so much, but that was in the news about all the Newark New Jersey, we were up there then of course, it was just awful and you know, seeing all this destruction anger and it reminded me of my brother to that. I had a lot of empathy for him, you know, even though that happened to me.

22:56 That sounds crazy. But I had a lot of empathy for him because I knew what happened. I wasn't that young where I didn't know what was going on, you know, but at the same time, you know, I didn't want him messing around me. The thing I didn't have empathy for was that my parents didn't know how to deal with it.

23:19 You know, and I blamed, you know, whether I was or not. I don't know. But nothing was done about it because they didn't know how to deal with that. You know. My brother Michael and I have a relationship, you know, still and we made amends to each other over the years. And we're really right now a lot, even though he was ostracized by law, the family, you and I had to press charges with my siblings against him. You know, you had a restraining order that was pretty painful, you know, but having to testify about it worried about him getting arrested. Again, that would let you know.

24:07 But yeah, but at the time now, we talked about things, he and I, we have these really deep conversations about how he remembers his childhood. How what happened to him in jail? What happened with him? In the Foster system, you know, we've been having these conversations since my mom died, you know, and gave me a bunch of information about his birth. I mean, it made me really care about him.

24:38 Yeah, that's a good point that kind of Segway into this next question because I do want to go ahead and get through these last two. So then you all can and I have the Florida yourself, but you're doing an amazing job with getting through and unpacking and cheering already. And I can go to the perfect segue. The next question is, who has been the kindest to you and your life and I'll let you kind of go for that their Margaret. Oh my god. I've had so many people being kind to me.

25:16 It's almost like you know, when you think when you're adopted like this attachment thing with you, I was extremely attached and I worshiped my mother and father. Yeah, I worship them. I think my father was the kindest person to me in my entire life, you know, and I also have a bunch of siblings who were pretty kind. Also, you know, I've always had people that for some reason I've been LED toward people I believe in in happened to be a Christian but I believed in the Holy Spirit leading me to the people who are trying to me, you know, and always convincing me deep down that I was full of it, you know, even though I had low self-esteem and I was trying to please people all the time and you know, but I've had tons of really beautiful.

26:08 Kind people in my life. It's hard to the name one, you know, I would say believe it or not. My father was probably the kindest person to me. My my adopted father. He always German American immigrant and he told the empathized with

26:28 Leaving his country and coming to the United States, having abandoned everything that he was at the German and be assimilated into American culture in after the Civil War. So it was very traumatic for him and to be fighting on the American side against Germans. That was very traumatic for him, you know, and wanting to have a simple life and being an organic Gardener and he just read each other's minds. We just know each other so well, and

27:03 Yeah, yeah.

27:12 You know, I mentioned earlier that sometimes I talk about the nuns, that raised me.

27:22 I switched Elementary School in 5th. Grade. I went to the new elementary school and went there from 58th grade. And then to a high school, a Catholic, High School in the same order of nuns taught in that second Elementary School and High School in New Orleans.

27:46 Tropical fish near New Orleans has used, and that was the kind of white flight to that really big.

27:58 One man, in particular, sister Sue Allen was. There were a couple of us that the convent was just like a regular house in our neighborhood and we would have coffee coffee is a big thing around their house and she and I kept in touch really. I have only lost touch with her in the last, like, 6, or 7 years. Because in her, seventies she decided to be go to a mission that the order had started in Africa. I haven't had any contact with her then but she just was just such a kind person and was always interested in me and who I was and, you know,

28:58 This was very open and a happy person and I think just knowing that she was out there for me.

29:09 With so much to me and you know, over the years as I've gotten to be an adult and I think it's just the way she lived. Her life was such a good model. She you know what I met her? She was the second grade teacher to be a she was like the head of the whole order of nine and still the exact same person. She had always been

29:40 Get out. You just was who she was no matter what but her job was small or huge.

29:51 How do you think of her?

29:55 As one of the kinds lights in my life.

30:01 Specifically that that resonated with you specifically that you kept in touch all these years.

30:12 I think she just

30:15 With such a good person. And she

30:21 Sheep with open to whatever I told her even when I was telling her things that, you know, I would probably think I wouldn't tell my mother that I, we had a guitar group. We would play for Math, and she was like the leader of it, which meant she was, there still a bunch of us that would go over to the convent and we would practice and practice on Sunday. So I guess I am in different setting. She never asked for apartment.

31:01 Did she accept you when you came out? Or did you know her that I did? I did, and I felt pretty comfortable coming out to her and it was funny cuz one of her personal responses, you know, so yeah. Yeah, she's very accepting.

31:36 And were you brought up Catholic?

31:39 Yeah. Oh, yeah. What kind of like you when you were younger?

31:48 You know what? I was younger. I was just all in that was all I knew it wasn't until I was in college. I remember the first time I decided not to go to mass on Sunday and I didn't get struck by lightning. I thought, okay. I'm good here. I'm good.

32:11 You know, again, I, I very much a voided facing the fact that I was gay until I was much older all along. How did you know? No, I don't think I knew. I thought about it. What I was.

32:32 Like after college, but he called, I had some friends who were gay. And then when I started teaching the teachers that I got to be friends with work and then I started noticing a pattern and yeah, we have a daughter or did you say you had a child at one time or but I did that a couple a gay couple that it's not polite to ask how you had your kids. It's just like when you adopt somebody, you know, you know, it's like yeah, it's bad form to say how much did it cost for them to get you or some stupid?

33:32 With that, right? Oh my God.

33:35 I had to deal with that all my life, you know? And I'll bet I was a bad really interested when you talked about attachment issues with the kids that you work with them. If it's attachment thing is so freaking important, you know, it's it's crucial really. It's crucial to so much. I mean, how did you learn about it? That was always interested in always from when I was a little girl. I just that was always my interest and so

34:19 When I was in graduate school, I did a special program that was focus on early childhood development and developmental disabilities, and learned a lot at that point. And I did some of my early work professional work, was with mothers and young children, and I stopped working and actually dishes. I had already started working part-time and then I got this call out of the blue from one of the women that has his practice 7 and she got my name from somebody else from another friend of mine and asked me if I wanted to do this work and this is what I want to do. So I find it interesting because you were talking earlier about in your about how it was hard for. You had to stay home because it was hard.

35:19 Are you to get a babysitter for your child? Do you mind explaining a little bit or talking a little bit more more about your motherhood of that child in the timer?

35:34 Is there an attachment? It was she just had a very sensitive system and so she was easily irritated and cried a lot and

35:48 You know, so finding I mean I could have found a babysitter for the first babysitter I found.

35:55 I have to go get my daughter because she was crying so much, and when I got there the babysitter had her upstairs in her room by herself. So she crying.

36:19 Yay, right, but you know, when we hit that point and there were lots of transitions going on. We will drive more like logistical stuff to Mystical, but I just was having a hard time leaving her and somebody was going to be able to see what she needs a ride, because of more needy, baby. How old is she now?

36:49 She is nineteen and she is a lovely young adults. So when I say that with such Pride, it really is and we're so happy that she was able to to grow through a lot of that. I bet your social work background, helped her a lot.

37:26 So yeah, we been through our struggles with those kinds of issues regardless of birth or not. You know, I've never been a, I never gave birth to people, you know, and I the closest that I could ever come to that experience is being all pair too. Many of my friends children, plus being being, an older child who took care of a lot of my own siblings and nieces and nephews, you know, well, you know, adlerian Theory doesn't work in our household. It's basically who was adopted first sort of absolute midlist Childtime number 11, out of 20.

38:19 A little because of the attachment that I had to my mother and father, me and my brother Charles.

38:31 Because we were infants and we were so dependent on them grow as infants and they paid extra special attention to us held us constantly. My earliest childhood memory is being held by my mother, you know, and yeah it looking at the mold that was right here on her, you know on her chest and my father's belly, you know, worrying about it cuz it was kind of round. I was thinking so I'm going to pop him. It's going to pop like a blue, but I think they paid, very special attention to my brother and I because we were dying.

39:13 We were both dying of malnutrition and they had to literally save our lives. And so they basically learned how to breed goats, because we were lactose intolerant, and the attachment came really quickly between me and my mother and father and Charles and my mother. And father. In fact until the end of my mother's life and the end of my father's life both Charles and me and my sister Susan who is also you know adopted early were the major caregivers like, you know every day until the end of my life. So it's just, you know,

40:06 I I never had that experience, but fortunately, I'm a step mother and I got married in to get having a daughter. And I met this girl, when she was 11, and she and I just love each other and we hit it off real well and I knew my boundaries by that point, you know, like, you know, she said that she's a therapist. You know, she said those foundries real early like please don't talk about my mom, you know, stay out of that and you know, if it if we have a issue with my dad will talk about it, most ourselves. You know, she got those boundaries for me but not when she was 11.

40:52 And she's amazing. But anyway, the really cool thing is that she's married to terrific guy, you know, and there are kids, you know, she's and now she has a granddaughter. She's given our family, a granddaughter, and all of us raised her. So, you know, her father and I are, you know, her dad is her biological father and mother but she was raised by her aunt. Who's my sister-in-law hit. My husband's only sister. He never gave birth to

41:42 You know, and I'm like the extra mom.

41:47 And I said, I told that to her and she says, well, your extra special mom, very generous toward me and very kind, and we've always been that way for each other. You know, how? That's my only experience of being a mom, really?

42:15 Yeah. Yeah. I say I do think that there are all kinds of ways that people can be mother's.

42:24 I think it's terrible. What happened to you though? When you know, about your, the day after the so-called marriage? And then I remember when that happened and then we'll all your neighbors. Like, what happened? 50% of your neighbors were cool. But then you have people who are saying that you shouldn't exist.

42:42 And you don't know which one I know Chesterfield county is weird. Anyway, yeah, I mean they would even allow a years. Yeah, right, you know my neighborhood at least now has become is becoming more liberal. Thanks all nice to see that that Jeff was still in Chesterfield County. So, there is there. Is there still that? Yeah.

43:16 But yeah, that's what they was pretty.

43:19 Demoralizing. And I'm so sorry you had to go through that. I understand that kind of like

43:26 Rejection by a town.

43:30 Yeah, but it's still hard because you're also trying to protect your children as well.

43:36 Light and he actually been pretty lucky with our kids, there really was only one.

43:45 Two incidents where we felt like we have to do something about it and both of those we were well supported one was the Girl Scout Troop who was fine that our daughter, but didn't want us involved. And when I told that to the

44:10 Somebody want somebody who had invited our daughter and they immediately quit that too. Started a new troop and died. It bited our daughter and the girl says kick the other leader as they were accepting eventually.

44:29 Boy, girl scouts were the Girl Scouts organization was just going to look at your local. I can get in touch with you later. But I know I did but I got your bio. I thought I have a feeling this is not going to be a person that I am falling apart from politically. Actually. We're pretty close. I have a very, very dear friend that I have to admit. I was not very well-versed in the lgbtq.

45:17 It's tough, you know, and I have like our church is very accepting. It's the Episcopal Church of America, you know, they weren't originally, you know, when Bishop forget it, you know, our first music director who's now, a priest was introduced to our church, family with him and his partner and their kids yell as much, but I do know a lot of friends and I go to Saint Thomas, but then the rest of that the church at that time, her name was Sue and she was on TV immediately defending. You know, she stood up for

46:17 All that, and it was great. It was you know, and this was the first time in my life. Honestly, this is 2000-2001. Whatever. This was the first time honestly, that, that, that issue if it came up in church, you know, like openly.

46:36 United Methodist, I wouldn't even know like lifetime Episcopalian, you know, station is sexual orientation with affect the day that marriage amendment was passed. We married, our administrator who happened to be with a woman and she got married that day or the day after and it was a big deal. But real dear friends of mine. One of them was married to a man for many years and she was nervous about telling me that she was with this woman and she invited me over for Christmas, you know, shortly in about two or three years after her husband that passed. And she introduced me and I could get it. I got it right away.

47:32 Get out and so I can so she when she told me I'm like, yeah. Yeah, you don't have to tell me. I knew that all along. What are you cheering?

47:42 The most people said to me, when I finally came up, came out like 5 years after her orientation. That was like, yeah, you know, so I don't like you would with any human being. You, you also don't get into questions about how they have their kids or didn't have their kids, you know, or cuz because I've learned that, you know, cuz I've also said things incorrectly, like, especially with my trans friend, you know, like they are getting used to being the bad men that thing that was hard for me, but

48:35 Yeah, it's a no-brainer now.

48:39 Yay, and one of my good friends.

48:44 Child has just come out as non-binary. And so we were all talking about we don't we're happy to use the appropriate. It's the plural for singular that really annoying.

49:00 I'm at such an age thing because our kids just now. I just say his name, the name that he prefers or she prefers depending on what they identify as you do or where they're moving towards.

49:17 Right, I just said, okay. Well, what's the name? What's your name, you know?

49:24 And it's the name is easy. It's the pronoun that card right but it will have five extra minutes to hear. Well, you know, we've all kind of been adopted in a way. I haven't way you do like think about it. I adoption is a huge thing. But the in my face in my in my face, I believe that you know, as human beings. We need to adopt each other a lot better, you know, absolutely. Absolutely. You have and I don't I don't necessarily have a religious day but I left the Catholic Church a long time ago. My Life Church is a Unitarian Church. Although I'm often that ass is there.

50:24 But I have a very, you know, spiritual Viewpoint of the world and appreciate the role of the role that religion can play. The positive role that religions can play in. Our world can appreciate that. I formed, you know, the desert fathers. They didn't know what the heck after Jesus was killed, you know, and so I think that going back to the spiritual part of why you actually we're in the middle of your spiritual life to begin with.

51:16 And how you realized that there was something bigger than yourselves or whatever if you are of that, you know, cuz some people are not the other and that's fine too. You know, I just think that what we're working for right now in the Episcopal Church in in Virginia is to become a Beloved Community.

51:41 Yeah, because this was formed on the back of the indigenous, people who were and colonization and slavery, bright bright, and black lives do matter. Hello. If you can't, people can't get that. I don't get that, you know.

52:04 Yes, yes. Yes, but I also have friends from New Jersey who, you know, I still can love you in spite of your white fragility.

52:21 I have siblings, but I feel the same way about. I have to just pay attention to what they're saying, and not like it. My thoughts involved in it. I have to come, he'll figure out where they're coming from. I grew up in the factory town where jobs are taken and things is, you know, so I just have to really listen.

52:43 You know, in order to understand rather than making them explain themselves.

52:50 Right, right. And, you know, might actually my goal, not understanding who I was going to be funny. I think it's important for all of us and all of us, regardless of which side of the political Spectrum, we fall on because

53:11 Do you know I like to know when I start raging about the the right, you know, I think about my brothers and I don't you know, I think about the people who have relatives that I have that I know are good people. I do love them. Right? And I'm and I love them and I know that they want good for the world that races a lot left.

53:37 That's a different piece. Right? I've heard that when you resent something about somebody else, or when you're angry with something about somebody else. There's always something in you that you have to re-examine.

53:55 Or look at.

53:57 Right. We are going to try to wrap it on that note, which was perfect.

54:06 That was fun.