Maria Hall and Kim L.

00:01 Hi, my name is Maria. I am 21 years old, and today's date is September 29, 2022. And I am recording from Charlottesville, Virginia, and my partner's name is Kim. Okay, and Kim.

00:18 Hi, I'm Kim. I'm 56, and I'm recording from Ruckersville which is right outside Charlottesville, Virginia. And my partner's name is Maria

00:31 Awesome. And Maria and Kim, why did you both want to do this interview today? Well, mine was originally because of my class that I'm taking on political dialogue. So we're trying to have more conversations outside of just between our classmates and try to engage with the broader community.

00:52 So my reason was I stopped watching the news because of all the arguing that happens. And one night I was watching 60 minutes, and they had talked about this, and I just thought, like, what an awesome idea that is to do something like that. I was on my way home one day, and on the radio, I heard it, like, being advertised for the Charlottesville area. So I came home and signed up.

01:25 Awesome. And, Maria, I'd love if you could kind of start out by reading out Kim's bio and asking any sort of questions that come to mind for you, any sort of points of interest or curiosity.

01:37 Just feel free to do that.

01:39 Sorry. You, like, head out for a second? Oh, okay. No worries. So if you could just start out by pulling up Kim's bio and I reading that out loud, and if any sort of questions come to mind for you, any curiosity points you have based on that bio, feel free to ask those questions. Okay, sure. So I am a Christ follower. I believe as a Christian, I am to love like Jesus. I may not agree with someone, but believe that everyone should be respected as a person and I should be respected in return. That's something that I say a lot, like, stuff like that with. Like, I like to make sure that people know that even if I don't agree with you, it doesn't matter as long as you're not hurting someone else. So I really like that. And then I find people and their life stories fascinating. I hate to see people hurting for any reason. I've spent time on the mission field in Zambia, Africa, ministering to the AIDS orphans that I would like to know more about. Your time in Zambia.

02:45 So we spent ten years part time going to Zambia, part time on mission trips, and we spent two years full time doing ministry in Zambia. The whole purpose was because at the time, so it started in 2001, we started going, and there was a. The huge AIDS crisis, and a whole generation of adults had died. And left all their kids, a generation of kids without, without parents, without anybody to look after them. And so God had called us over there, and we spent time with an organization that built homes. They would put a widow and then eight children. It was usually four boys and four girls together so that they could form a family. And so it wasn't like they don't really have orphanages, but it. So you had children that were being raised by a mom and not by, like, an orphanage worker. So this woman was totally engaged in these kids life. She was making them food. She was getting them to school like they were her children. I loved that idea that there weren't a bunch of Americans coming in and removing the children from their culture, because how do you change a culture if you just take everybody out of it? And so we went over there, and the way the ministry could filter the most needy kids was they would hold a vacation Bible school camp, which you do. You know what that is like most people do. And so the kids would come to vacation Bible school. They would be fed, because you can't. It's great to minister to somebody's spiritual needs, but you've got to recognize their physical needs as well. So the kids would stay there in the, like, a church building, and then we would feed them breakfast, lunch, and dinner. And through that process, because the kids came from, like, like a local community, and churches over there are involved in the community, so they would sign up kids that they felt were in a position that really needed the extra help. So they would sign the kids up and they would come. And from that process is how they would figure out which kids needed to come into the, they call them my father's home. Like, who needed to come into my father's home? And so we, we did that. We raised up missionaries, other people from the churches to go over with us to help. It also helps people recognize the needs of other places. Kind of takes you out of your own self and puts you in a place where you're pretty much everything is foreign. And so you really, one, rely on God, and two, you recognize that maybe the universe is bigger than yourself. And so we did that. And we also, I think my favorite story was we were going somewhere. It was my husband and I, and we had a driver, and we got a phone call from the ministry leader, and he said, there's three kids at an orphanage who needs to be picked up because they've got nowhere to go. And we were like, oh, yeah, we'll go get them. So we went to the orphanage, and it was. It was small. It's more like a house. And it was. It was run. It was a catholic orphanage. And they did. They did not have room for these three kids. One was a little boy who was probably seven. His uncle was taking care of him, but he couldn't take care of him anymore, so he left him at the bus stop. And this orphanage, this catholic organization, had gotten him. The other two were twins, girls who were probably about six. And so we go there, and the lady that's running the organization tells the kids, okay, go get your stuff. Okay, so here's our american mind. Go get your little Barbie suitcases that's full of all your cute little clothes, and, you know, Stanley, you go get your trucks. And. And so they came back, and the girls had a plastic bag, like a grocery bag, and in it was a pair of sunglasses and a broken Barbie. Stanley had nothing. He didn't have shoes, he didn't have socks. So we took them to my father's house. And so the girls are 19 and in college, and I just. I feel like when we can. When we can see other people's situation and kind of look past the situation, but look at what they could be, and because I look at it from God's perspective, like, those girls have become amazing based on the fact that somebody, and not us, but the ministry that took him in, took them in, cared about them, like, they simply cared about them and wanted them, you know, to thrive. And so I feel like that's my favorite story, like the act of redemption. And, of course, that's got spiritual connotations to it, but it also has very physical, tangible things to it that. That amazes me. And the places that we've been in Africa have been very friendly places. And so african people are fat. I just. I love african people. Like, the culture. I love everything about it. So that was our time in Zambia. We spent a lot of time raising Americans up to go, to prepare them. Look, there's no. This is different. You don't eat whenever you want to eat. You'll eat three times a day. And there may or may not be enough, like, doing that kind of thing, which I really loved that because it really gave people opportunity to see, one, what God will do for them and how he provides for them, and two, it takes us outside of our own comfort zone and makes us realize, like, things are so different. You know, the african culture is very different, and there's really good things about it, and there's things that maybe aren't so good. And to try to help people. Let's take the good and leave the bad. You know, don't necessarily compare or don't judge them because of their culture. They're very, like, you know, spanking. Stuff like that is very prominent in their culture, which can be very shocking to us. Discipline in that manner. And so helping people understand, like, okay, we don't do that, and we may not like that, but that doesn't give you a right to judge them based on that particular thing. Did that.

11:26 Yeah, that was great. I love a lot. I love that I'm pre med and, like, obviously want to go into the field of, like, helping people. So I love that there's people out there doing that.

11:39 Yes. Great.

11:44 And I will also just ask him if you could read Maria's bio out loud, and then feel free to ask any questions that come to mind. And from there, I'll let you guys take it away with the conversation.

11:54 Proph.

11:55 And I'll hop on whenever just to remind you guys at the time.

11:59 Okay. I'm from New Jersey and was raised in a conservative catholic home, but I'm liberal now. Some areas important to me are LGBTQ rights, women's rights, especially related to abortion and intersection. Ality. I'm also ukrainian, albanian, sicilian, and british, which has influenced my upbringing. I'm science and fact oriented and will educate myself on topics I don't know much about. I don't understand economics much, and I'm pre med and cognitive science. So the first thing that stuck out to me, Maria, was, like, the albanian, ukrainian, sicilian, british. I mean, that's kind of, like. I was like, wow, that's a lot.

12:51 Yeah, each of my grandparents were born in different countries, so, yeah, they're. It's just, like, really interesting because I can see, like, the culture within each of them. So, like, this past summer, I went to Sicily with my grandfather and my mother, and then we got to, like, visit a ton of our family and just, like, stayed in, like, this little town in Sicily, like, right near where my grandfather was born and all of that. I got to see, like, the little fields that they grow their vegetables in, and, yeah, that was, like, really nice to, like, be able to, like, be in touch with, like, that part of my culture also. And then.

13:33 Oh, go ahead.

13:34 Oh. Like, for the rest of it, it was more like, Albanian and Ukrainian are very similar in terms of, like, Greek orthodox church. So, like, I. Even though I was raised Catholic, like, we also had. We would celebrate Greek Orthodox Easter and stuff like that. So it was kind of interesting to see how they were different, yet the same.

14:02 So just curious, what made you decide? Because Catholicism is on this other spectrum of being liberal.

14:12 Yes.

14:13 So what made you decide? Like, that is not what I want to do. I want. What made you decide that?

14:21 So there's, like, two big factors that led into that. One was that, like, I grew up going to church every single Sunday. Like, I've baptized, confirmed all of that, and then I ended up going to a catholic school. And so the catholic school honestly pushed me away from the church more than it brought me into it, because way that they would structure things and the way that they just were not open to other people was really discouraging to me. So, like, they would claim to be, like, supporting women and trying, like, it was an all girls school also. So, like, they were trying, like, claiming that they were here to support all women and, like, help everyone get on their right paths and stuff like that. But then, at the same time, like, people, like, they wouldn't let the school have, like, a club for people that weren't straight or anything like that. And they also forced them to call it the Unity Club because having anything that was, like, remotely related to gender and sexuality was just not allowed to be talked about. So things like that. Also, we had some, like, very, like, conversations with my peers. They were, like, really racist and things like that, which I know isn't, like, connected to the church necessarily. It's just, like, they become associated, and, like, they're just very privileged people that don't realize that they're privileged. Like, I understand I grew up in a privileged household, but, like, these people were just, like, saying things like, oh, yeah, like, my au pair did this today. Like, I hated that she made me Mac and cheese. I wanted, like, salmon. Like, things like that. And, like, I don't believe with, like, I don't like that. And then also in the church that I grew up going to, one or two of the priests were found to have been engaged in, like, child molestation and, like, sexual relations with one another. And I kind of was like, I don't want to be a part of that.

16:31 That makes sense. And I have to say, I think when I was reading yours, I think women's issues are important to me as well. I don't have, like, I don't necessarily relate to the abortion part, but I relate to the fact that it's easy for people to say, especially if you've suffered any kind of trauma or something like that. You know, it's easy to say, like, you know, women, you know, they're not discriminated against. But, you know, I've been in situations where I have felt, just because I was a woman, I have felt completely out of place. And so I think we have the same. Like, I do care about women's issues, including abortion. But that struck me about what you wrote, too, because I could tell that people were important to you. And I think when you start talking about groups of people who are looked down upon or shamed or, like, excluded from society, like, I could care less. Like, about that. Like, I just want to know you as a person. I don't care what group of people you belong to, and I could see that in you. The other thing I was curious about is why you're. Why pre meddle?

18:17 So I've always been interested in the brain, specifically. And then growing up, I've just had a lot of weird brain medical things that have happened in my life, not always necessarily to me, but when I was in 7th grade, a softball teammate of mine passed from a brain tumor, and that was something where I was like, wait, I want to know more. She just was saying that she was having headaches and was in the hospital, and now she's gone. And so that was, like, started my interest in it, and then it kind of just, like, built up from there because my grandma had a form of Parkinson's that, like, kind of, like, resembled Ms in a way. And so, like, I saw, like, her, like, slowly deteriorate because it was a neurodegenerative disease. And so, like, that just made me really interested in, like, learning more about it and, like, why, like, why is that happening? And, like, what can I do to try to, like, make it so that people don't have to, like, suffer through those things also?

19:21 That's amazing. That's really amazing. And so what year are you?

19:26 I'm a fourth year.

19:28 Oh, wow.

19:29 Yeah, I'm graduating this semester.

19:32 That's awesome. And then are you going to stay at UVA for medical school?

19:39 I don't know where I'm going to go. Probably not. I'm a big city person, and this is so rural for me. I spent the summer living in New York City, and so coming back here was like, I knew it was going to be a shock, but it was so much more of a shock than I remembered it being. So I'm hoping to go to school in a bigger city, but, I mean, I have to apply to Uva because, like, obviously, so I don't know.

20:11 Oh, wow. I hear you. Because when we came here, so we were living in right outside of Dallas, Texas. And we were. So we would spend some time in Texas, and then we would spend some time in Africa. And so then when we got called off the mission fields, we assumed we would either stay in Dallas or we would go back to northern Virginia, where we had come from, and we came to Ruckersville. I don't know if you even know where Ruckersville is.

20:42 Not really.

20:43 Yeah. Right. Cause it's, like, at the corner of 29 and 33 is like, ruckersville. My husband's parents lived here, and we used to visit them when we lived in northern Virginia. And the whole two hour ride from northern Virginia, I would say to Paul, who lives here, like, nobody lives here. Like, seriously? We have driven an hour and seen nothing. Like, nobody lives here. Why are your parents here? And so when we got called here, I was like, are you kidding me? Like, this is crazy. So I feel. And you're in Charlottesville. And so, like, Ruckersville is north, and it's about, I don't know, half hour north of Charlottesville. It's literally, like, we have a Walmart and a lowe's and a food lion, like, in McDonald. I mean, but, like, there's nothing.

21:45 Yeah.

21:46 Here. Oh, yeah. I. I get you. Yes.

21:50 That was, like, a lot for me. I like the closest Nordstrom. Not even that that's, like, that important is two and a half hours away.

21:58 Oh, yeah. Because, like, Charlottesville doesn't even have a mall anymore.

22:01 Yeah. It's like three stores in the area.

22:05 Yeah. Oh, I totally. I totally get. Yeah, yeah. What you're feeling there.

22:13 Yeah.

22:16 Well, I would hope you would stay at uva, but you know where you gotta go.

22:23 Yeah. It also depends on where I get in, because all of that's, like, very difficult to get into med schools, generally. Like, even if you have good grades, good scores and everything.

22:36 So do you take a gap year or what do you do?

22:40 So I'm going to. In the spring, I'm going to stay in Charlottesville because I still have my lease and I want to, like, be with my friends. And so I'm going to get my EMT certification for, like, back home because I can take, like, a course online, and I'm going to be doing that and, like, working and then working on my application for med school because I'll be applying in the spring, and that's, like, basically a year long process. So, like, you apply in the spring. The first, like, places you might hear from would be in October or November, and then you would start the following July or August, depending on the school. So, like, I will be taking a gap year, and I'm probably going to be doing EMT during that time.

23:23 And that's good experience. I mean, that's, that's good. And anybody that can, like, manage, I'm really bad with, like, blood and, like, whatever.

23:35 Like, yeah, I'm really good in a crisis, and so, like, I'm very calm in a crisis. I spent the summer, like, in New York. I was, like, doing research slash, like, working in Bellevue's hospital, like, from NYU's Bellevue hospital in the emergency department.

23:56 Really?

23:57 Yeah. So I was, like, interviewing pretty much all the patients that came in, asking them about, like, just, like, demographics, things like that. And then for my research, we were working with substance use disorders, and so we were getting data on people that and, like, what substances they were using. We were able to, like, refer them to treatment if that was something they were interested in, like, regardless of the substance that they were using. And then we were trying to recruit people for our studies, which were focused specifically on opioid use disorders. And so we were able to basically provide everything for someone who was eligible for the study. We gave them a phone, we gave them a credit card for food and all of that. We made sure that they had a stable shelter or home to stay in and had transportation for them to make sure that they could get to and from the clinics and stuff like that. So, like, I really enjoyed doing that this summer.

25:02 Wow, that sounds amazing. Yeah, that's what I'm about. Like, you can't, like, let's not make judgments on people, right? Let's just see where we can help them. Where we can come alongside of them and help them.

25:18 Yeah.

25:19 Like, I am. I just. That's where my heart is, you know? Like, people are judged so much. You know? Let's just put that aside.

25:32 Yeah.

25:33 When I was reading one of the questions, like, one of them is, like, what? Like, what are your political views? Or whatever? And I was thinking about that, and it's like, you know, my political views, I'm conservative, so obviously there's part of that, but I also feel like there's another side to that and, like, let's just think about people and what people need. Right. As opposed to, I hate politics. Cause I think it doesn't help anybody.

26:07 Yeah, right.

26:08 Like, and sometimes the governments are so corrupt that they don't help anybody either.

26:16 Yeah.

26:17 You know, so, like, in my opinion, churches, nonprofits, like, those are the places that needs to be reaching out and helping people. Are you politically involved?

26:36 So, yes and no. My father is very conservative, and we like to have intellectual debates a lot. So, like, throughout high school, like, starting probably junior year, um, sophomore, junior year, we were. Would basically every Sunday, it would be a political debate at the table. Um, but what we did, which I think is, like, wonderful. And I never, like, I didn't. I took it for granted because I didn't realize, like, how unique it was, is like, we would never leave the table mad at each other. We would only be asking questions and challenging each other to understand and to, like, yes, we were trying to be like, no, your point didn't make sense based on what you just said a little bit. But always from a place of just wanting to stimulate our brains intellectually and really challenge each other to think it through, to make sure we actually have reasoning behind what we're saying. And I love doing that. I think it's so much fun. And you really get to know a person through that. Yes, I'm political in that sense, is that I need to be educated so that I can have debates with my dad. He would call me right out. He's like, I don't know if there's something that I wasn't aware of. He'd be like, so what are your thoughts on this? And I'm like, you know, I don't know about that.

27:55 So, like, what do you think was, like, one of the most, like, the debate that you guys were furthest apart on recently?

28:06 We had one. Well, we actually were very far apart, and then realized we were saying some of the same things. So I think that's probably a good example would be. So we were talking about abortion because, like, since I was working in the hospital over the summer, that was something that, like, a lot of the doctors and nurses would be talking about from, like, the medical standpoint. And so I was, like, talking to my dad about that. I'm like, well, what? Like, what are your reasonings for thinking that abortion is not, like, the correct choice for, like, anyone in any circumstance? And so I was, like, asking him about that. I'm like, he was saying something along the lines of, like, when life begins. And I was like, well, I'm very scientific. So I look at it from, like, a scientific characteristics of life. So, like, a fetus or an embryo, like, that's not something that can survive outside of the host body on its own until it reaches, like, a certain number of weeks. And so, like, in the beginning of that, like, it's not alive according to, like, science. Like, very, very, like, strict scientific rules. But he was explaining, like, he's, like, felt that it was alive. And I'm like, that's, like, I understand that. Like, that makes that sense. Like, I mean, that's your belief. But what I was asking was that about, like, how does one decide where, like, that life will take precedence over the woman that's already living? Because a lot of the times, like, abortion is a life saving procedure that can happen. And so I ended up teaching him about ectopic pregnancies, which he didn't know anything about. Like, he didn't realize the severity of those because they're 100% fatal, basically, if you don't get it treated. And so we started out with him being like, no, there's no cases like that. No. And then ending up on saying, like, well, that's crazy. Why isn't that written into law? That anyone with an ectopic pregnancy can't get an abortion? That's not even an abortion. It's just a removal of tissue at that point because it's literally no chance of getting anywhere beyond a clump of cells.

30:27 And that's where it ends up in the fallopian tubes, right?

30:32 Yeah. It's either in the fallopian tubes or it's actually just is outside of the uterus. So it's, like, in your body cavity, which can be really dangerous for, in terms of, like, it could rupture, and then you would have, like, a lot of internal bleeding. It's like the idea of, like, when you're pregnant, you can have, like, hemorrhage as you're giving birth. Like, it's something that is comparable to that.

30:54 Okay.

30:55 So, yeah, we started out very far apart and then worked our way into an understanding of, like, oh, we actually, like, we wanna protect the life. It's just. Of how to do that.

31:09 And I like doing that same thing. So I have a nephew who's. He's 40, and he is, like, we are literally, like, far apart, except for the fact that people should be respected. And he and I can have those conversations, like, and it. As a matter of fact, we just had one a few weeks ago, and I said to him, I'm like, I'm really glad we had this conversation because I feel like we know each other better now. And I don't. I don't want to convince you to think like me. I'm more interested in your thoughts and where you're coming from because we're family. We love each other. So the rest of my family will not have those discussions because they end up yelling at each other. And for me, it's like, I'm not gonna get mad. What's there to get mad about, you know?

32:06 Yeah, I have some relatives that try to, like, instigate me things like that. Cause, like, they know, like, I'm going to, like, Uva, which is more liberal school, and they'll just, like, bait me. So they're like, so what did you think about what, like, Biden said or what did you think about Trump said? I'm like, I don't want to talk about this. Like, I just want to have Christmas dinner. I just want to eat my cookies. Why are you bringing this up? So, like, I won't engage with them. I'm just like, oh. Like, I don't know.

32:38 So I grew up in a very conservative republican household. My mom's 80, still republican. I don't really know what I am because I can't say that I agree with everything Biden says, and I couldn't certainly agree with everything that Trump said. So I feel like I'm one of those people, like, without a political party or something, do you know? Like, yeah. And I feel like, as a Christian, sometimes I felt like the christians that were backing him, like, so ferociously, it's like, are you stopping to hear what he's saying? Like, and I think for me and my mom, I think for her, it's kind of like the way she grew up. Like, you pick a party and you stay with it until you die. Whereas I feel like, more even my generation is like, I'm not picking a party. Yeah, I'm picking a person. And what do you think your generation, like, what's the vibe in your generation?

34:05 So I would say, specifically speaking to Gen. Z, we're more of caring about people. So whoever's doing the best to take care of people and acknowledge structural racism, things like that, and are working towards education for all, instead of saying that, but then also not teaching critical race theory, even though you have to acknowledge some things were built on slavery, that's something that you need to talk about. And so that's, like, in reference to youngkins new policy of, like, not being able to discuss critical race theory in schools, which is really just a fancy word for saying that the civil war was fought over slavery.

34:54 So it's interesting that you say that. Cause my husband was raised in the south. He was raised in Virginia. I was raised in Ohio, and we totally had different history lessons. Yeah, totally. And I don't think people realize that.

35:10 Yeah, that's, like, a huge thing is, like, they really do teach you things, like, very differently depending on where you're from. Like, even my roommates, like, I'm from New Jersey, they're from Virginia. And, like, they're like, wait, what? I'm like, yeah, yeah.

35:26 The first time I saw a rebel flag, like, I was appalled.

35:32 Yeah.

35:32 And I said to my husband, I'm like, what? What? Why do they have that flag flying? And he's like, it's the rebel flag. I'm like, yeah, I know why? And, yeah, I don't know. It's so, yeah, completely different. I have a. I have a friend that grew up in Virginia, and she says that the civil war was about states rights.

35:59 Yeah.

36:00 And I was like, what? Yeah, so I don't know, like, where New Jersey falls into that. Like, if they're more like, no, this was about slavery.

36:11 Oh, no, we were very much so. It was about slavery because, well, I also had a very liberal american history teacher, and so she was, like, very, very adamant about making sure we understood what actually happened to. Because, like, we had a textbook that was a little bit older, and so it was, like, it wasn't quite there at admitting it was about slavery. Like, it brought both sides to the story, and I was just like, but it's. It wasn't about state rights.

36:41 It's about states rights being able to have slaves.

36:44 Right, yeah, exactly. So, like, my school, like, did a little differently because, like, yes, we had. We had both sides in the textbook, but because I think that's more because we were in a catholic school and then also, like, the teachers bringing in their own opinions and their desires to try to teach us more beyond the textbook. So I was fortunate in that, that I learned the truth.

37:08 Wow. So I'm surprised. So you're in your twenties? Yes, I am surprised that that's still, like, in a. Like, I swear, when I went to school, so I'm 56. This is a while ago. We did not. It was really cut and dry. Was very like, you don't fly the rebel flag. That's wrong. I never had seen one, like, other than, like, in the history book. And it was about slaves.

37:41 Yeah.

37:41 The little town I grew up in had some underground railroad in it, and so there were a couple buildings where they used to bring the slaves from the south to the north and keep them hidden until they could. I don't know, until whatever happens. But so that's very. It's very interesting that still.

38:07 Yeah, I think things only got worse after, like, Trump's administration because that, like, led to people who weren't necessarily, um, like, as, like, advocating it that much or just, like, I guess, like. Like, the rebel flag is, like, flown in New Jersey in different places. And I think that is, like, a direct consequence of Trump's presidency because, like, I know when I was, like, little, that would never happen. Like, I never saw one until probably 2015, 2016. And so, like, there was, like, a very stark difference. Like, yes, there are people that were, like, very republican or very, like, democratic or anywhere on political spectrum or off it, but it definitely became so much more polarized and so much more aggressive. Like, whichever way you were leaning, you couldn't lean that way. You had to jump that way. And so that's kind of how it is, I guess. So I guess our generation is kind of, like, not sure what to do about that. Like, we don't like that. We don't want the two party system. We want to be able to, like, vote for someone because we agree with them, not because they have to, like, fit a certain, like, mold of what a candidate should be for a certain party. So I think my generation's goal is to abolish that.

39:28 I would love to have that happen because I have, like I said, I can't. It's hard for me. It's hard for me because I have to also recognize my. I don't want to say religious because I don't like that religious word, but what I feel like God has set as a rule or as the moral law and what other people, I guess it's that whole thing about I feel like sometimes I have to choose between, like, throwing the baby out with the bath water.

40:05 Yeah.

40:06 You know, and that I just don't. I don't think life in general is that clear.

40:13 Yeah, definitely.

40:15 You know, so, although, honestly, like, I don't believe abortion is right, I also don't think it's right to call people names or stand in front of a. A clinic and call people names, you know? So I'm kind of like, hey, why don't we kind of try to figure out what's happening in this woman's life? Like, why don't we talk to her and find out, like, what's going on?

40:43 Yeah.

40:44 And is there another alternative that she would rather do then? Okay, then let's support that.

40:50 Yeah. I think, like, a lot of our concerns, or at least, like, people I talk to about, like, related to abortion and, like, if someone chooses not to have one but then they have a child that they don't want is, like, a lot of the times, the problem is that the support stops at birth. And, yeah, I don't know if you have anything to say about that. Like, in terms of, like, I know you do a lot of ministry.

41:18 So what I. What I would feel like was a success in that situation is one. There's a lot of christian adoption agencies, so my husband and I don't have kids. It was a choice because when we started going to Africa, that would have been when we would have had kids, and we just felt like that, okay, so I've always said I don't need to have my own kids to love kids. I can have any kids. And for whatever reason, when we talked about maybe adopting, we decided we would adopt a black child, an african american kid. And we knew that although our families would love them, there might be a little, like, what are you doing? And then what happened was we got called to Africa. So that kinds of. He was like, okay, this is our path to help kids. But because of our age at the time and our friends, we had a couple friends, couples who were struggling with fertility issues. And so one of them finally decided, like, this is not going to happen, so we're going to try to adopt. And so they went to a christian adoption agency, and I was, like, shocked because it was put together an album for, like, a potential mother to show them what your family is like. And when I saw the album, I was. I was shocked to. And it was clearly, like, the way things were done, right? So they like to ski. I mean, they. It was just like this. I can give your kid a better home than anybody can give them. And that was not my friend's intentions at all. Like, they weren't like that, but that was the process. And then it was very expensive. And I just. I remember thinking, if we have children in our country that need homes and we have women who may not want to have an abortion, but feel like that's their only option, this is wrong. Like, why are we not, and specifically, as the church as a whole, why is the church not saying to these women, look, we will take your child? Because we already know there's so many people that want a baby, and if you don't charge them ten or $20,000 to get a baby, there'd be more people. Right?

44:13 Yeah.

44:14 Like, this is not. This should not be about selling babies. This should be about, hey, we have an alternative for you. As a woman who doesn't want to choose abortion, that would be my perfect world.

44:30 Yeah, I like that a lot, because I like. I think the biggest issue is it's less about what, like, happens while they're pregnant, it's more about what happens after, because if a woman chooses to have the baby and then they don't have the financial support or, like, they wanted to give it up for adoption. Again, like you said, like, it's so complicated to go through the adoption process and, like, if they want to be in the child's life in any way, there's just so many factors that, like, those aren't they. There are not good systems set up in place for people to do that, which I think is the reason, like, part of the reason why there are, like, more abortions than people would necessarily like. More people get abortions than would actually want to get them.

45:18 And I agree because I think, and it's scary. And one, a woman should not ever feel shamed or guilty to say, hey, I got pregnant and I can't. I can't take care of this baby. I don't want an abortion. But I also don't want somebody to look at me and say, you're a horrible person because you're giving your baby away.

45:42 Yeah.

45:44 So I just. I feel like, as christians, as a church, we could do more to help women who don't want to make that choice and still stand on our convictions. Right. Like, and help them.

46:03 Yeah.

46:05 So I've never bought into the fact that women, and I'm sure there are some. I've never bought into that idea that women use abortion as birth control.

46:17 Absolutely not. Yeah.

46:18 No, I just can't. I just can't see that, because that one. That's a very personal thing. Like, it's not like walking in and getting a vaccination. Right. Yeah, I don't believe that. So there's got to be a reason. Like, we need to ask women, like, do you want another option? And if you do, we can support that.

46:48 Yeah.

46:49 And so I feel like that needs to be asked in the beginning. Like, I feel like there should be, like, a neutral zone, if you will, like, not pushing them to have an abortion and not pushing them and making them feel bad. Like, just. Let's just sit down and talk about this.

47:13 Yeah. No, like, I really agree with that because, I mean, again, like, being raised Catholic, all of that, and, like, we would do, like, a service day every year, and we would always, like, make these baby diaper cakes to send to. Like, there was, like, a yemenite christian shelter organization nearby that would, like, give these diaper cakes to new moms and support them through that, because I'm sure, you know, diapers and formula and all those things are so expensive. And so I liked that we were able to do that, and I liked that some of these people were able to continue their pregnancies. Um, and, like, it's nice to see that, like, I'm. Although I am pro choice, like, I'm also not, like. Like, pro abortion. Like, that's what I feel like sometimes, is a disconnect. I'm like, I'm not, like, I'm not saying go kill, like, babies that are 33 weeks in the womb. Like. Like, that's incredible. That's crazy. That's, like, not it, like, at all. It's like, it's about, like, the woman needs to decide if, like, that's something that she's ready to take on herself. And if she's not, then, like, does she have the support to help her if she can't, like, make those decisions? As well as all of the medical factors of people, like, having miscarriages and, like, technically, the termination of that is an abortion. But, like, some people are like, no, you can't have any abortion. But I'm like, that is the clinical protocol also that's endangering the woman's life. And the, like, the Bible, like, says not to put, like, the woman's life at risk like that. And so it's, like, hard to find a balance there.

49:06 And I think. I mean, so I'm, you know, like, you're pro abortion? I'm not, but I feel like even so what I struggle with and I just have to know that God is sovereign and I let it go. But rape, like, that's. That's. That's hard. And that's why I don't think, like, we can get mad at people or we want to argue about things. Right. Because I've never been in that situation, but that doesn't mean that if a woman has been, I don't know that it. So things like that are hard for me. Like, rape, incest, like, all. I mean, that's. That's hard stuff. Yeah, that really. I mean, you need counseling for, first of all, and then, you know, to get well. So it's interesting because you say you're pro abortion or whatever they call it, and. But you still feel like there's a point at which you shouldn't do that.

50:13 Yeah, like, definitely. I think up until the fetus is viable, then that's reasonable. But once they reach viability, then that gray line. Gray area becomes a lot darker and seems a lot clearer that it's not. Like, that feels more like killing a baby. To me. But, like, when the fetus, like, can't survive outside of the womb, then that's more up to the woman at that point because, like, she has the choice of whether or not to continue the pregnancy. Like, for whatever reason, use, like, I don't know, a medical reason as an example. Like, it's not the best for her to continue on otherwise, like, bad complications could happen. Like, the. There is no nervous system. They can't feel pain. Like, conscious. Oh, like.

51:23 You'Re breaking up.

51:26 What?

51:27 You were breaking up.

51:28 Oh, sorry. Yeah. So, like, I think that there has to be a line of when an abortion is considered, like, reasonable to go through with, or, like. Like, I do think there is a line, and I do, like, after which it's like, that seems morally, like, wrong to me. But, like, in the earlier stages, like, some people, like, some diseases you can detect really early on in the first trimester, and some of those are, like, disabling diseases where the mother is just going to have a child that's a born without a brain. And so, like, that's not a life for the baby. Like, once they're born, like, that's going to be a horrible life for, like, 12 hours of just pure agony. And, like, I don't see how that's better than terminating the pregnancy before. Like, you bring that into the world because it's only going to be bringing suffering into the world. Like, there will be no joy or life.

52:29 So I hear what you're saying. I have a friend who has a down, who had a Down syndrome child. She had three children, and the middle one, it was. The middle one had down syndrome. I was surprised she even had another one because I would have been like, oh, no, I'm doing that again. But she always says so. She's in her seventies now, and her daughter passed away few years ago, and she was about my age, and she used to bring her to work sometimes. And so it's interesting because when Debbie would come to work, like, we all enjoyed having her so much. Like, she brought so much joy to the workplace for that day. Like, she was a handful, so she would hide behind doors because she liked to scare people, and so. And so she would hide behind office doors. And then when people would walk in, she'd, like, jump out and say, like, boo. But she was such a joy. And Cora, her mom always said she's like, you know, Debbie was a lot of work, but I have to say she was one of my biggest blessings and the biggest joy in my life. And I always think about that, because I tend to feel sorry for people who may have, like, some kind of disability. And then I think back about, you know, what Cora said. Like, she's the biggest blessing in my life. She's been the joy of my life. And so I hear your argument, but then you have that side of it as well, where you talk to people who have special needs kids, and they'll say that, like, they're the sweetest person or they're. So I think that's interesting.

54:28 Yeah, I think a lot of it's, like, the quality of life for the child or baby, and, like, how long they would be able to last. Like, if they don't have a brain, they can't live. Like, that's end of story. Like, that's pure suffering for the baby. Like, down syndrome, that's a choice. Like, that's something that's going to be hard. You can give them up for adoption, or you can choose to raise them, but, like, at least you still have, like, the resemblance of a kid there. But, like, certain genetic disorders lead to things where it's, like, you will literally have to, like, move your child, like, via, like, some kind of stretcher system for their entire life. They're not going to be able to feed themselves on their own ever. And, like, things like that where, like. Like, it's hard. And there are great children out there that are disabled. Like, I did work with disabled children when I was, like, for my confirmation. Like, that was, like, my service project, and, like, those children were wonderful. But I also know that, like, certain genetic disorders coming from, like, a medical background, like, I've seen it, like, firsthand. Like, it causes so much more pain than joy. And so it's kind of, like, really, like, I understand how difficult that, like, could be. Like, I'm lucky that that's not something I've personally experienced, but, like, I can see where, like, it's really hard. It's up to the people whether they think that they're strong enough to go through that and, like, be okay with knowing that they could lose their child within a week. And if that's worth it to them, if the child's going to be in pain.

56:02 Yeah. Hi.

56:05 Hey. So I just wanted to pop in for a moment, let you guys know that we are almost at the hour. Mark. But I hear you both are very passionate about the topic of abortion. And kind of where you stand on this is really based on a lot of your individual experiences with people that you know and things that you've even learned to. And so you know, really recently, I know this topic has become more heated, you know, with the recent Supreme Court decision, and I would just kind of love to hear from the both of you. Has that led to more moments of misunderstanding, more moments of agreement with people? Like, what are your experiences? Just being both passionate about this topic and potentially even talking about this with others that, you know, just strangers.

56:57 Do? You know, like, for me, in a sense, just because the Supreme Court ruled against it, it still. States rights should still be states rights because I really feel like the government should not be ruling our country anyway. Like, people should make those decisions. Decisions. I am not the kind of person that would ever celebrate a decision like that because I know how personal it can be for some people and how either way, I would rather have a conversation about it and talk to somebody one on one about their experience or whatever than to have somebody think that if they tell me they've had an abortion or they believe in it, that I would automatically not speak to them or be mad at them. So I can't really say that, like, I've not really discussed it with anybody.

58:03 I personally have discussed it a lot, especially with my dad and stuff. And I would say, like, things definitely seemed a lot more heated. Just, like, being on a college campus and talking to, like, friends and things like that. And, like, with my family, I would say that I think it's. It's led to more conversation. I think it's also led to a lot more arguing. So it's kind of difficult to balance those. But I do think that having such, like, a high level decision led to more conversations like these, where, like, we understand more about, like, where the person's coming from and why they believe what they believe, as opposed to just saying, one stop, done. If you are happy about Roe v. Wade being overturned, then you're automatically hate everyone and hate women. And I don't think that's true because I think there are so many other factors that need to be brought into consideration. And in my personal experience, I've noticed people being more open to listening and to hearing about it because more men are realizing that they don't know anything about that. So, like, I, like, some of my guy friends have, like, actually come up and asked me questions about it. I'm like, that's great. Like, I'm so glad. Like, this is at least leading to more education. Even if it was something that. What, like, I personally don't see as, like, a great thing to have happened, at least it's leading to more conversation, more education, which I think is, like, the most important thing that could come out of that.

59:40 And I agree, but I also feel like, on both sides, like, the right, the left, whatever, you know, like, you hear conservatives say, oh, abortion, like, nobody can ever have another abortion in their life. And then you would hear the other side say, you know, oh, this is like a horrible day for women. And I'm like, okay, like, this is not the end of womanhood. Like, let's, like, put this all in perspective, people, because I do care about women and I care about, I care about their emotional as well as their physical. And I feel like if we could talk about it and agree to disagree, you know what I'm saying? Like, I don't want, I may never change anybody's mind, but that's okay. At least I'll understand where you're coming from. I would love to have more of these conversations because I just feel like we're just getting nowhere.

01:00:49 Yeah, I agree with that.

01:00:52 And in the end, like, what good does that do? It does nothing. And it's, you know, like walking by somebody who's really hungry and saying, well, I hope you get to eat today. And they just keep moving. Right? That does nothing.

01:01:10 Absolutely. I think, you know, the backbone to a functioning democracy is the ability for people themselves to take part in that democracy. And I think when we don't give ourselves that know, chance to be able to communicate and, you know, have these sorts of dialogues with community members and individuals who might have different beliefs from ourselves, we, we grow further apart. And unfortunately, in some ways, that's sort of where we're at, I would say, as a country sometimes. And so, yeah, I really, I really thank you both for being able to provide some perspective to that question. And I think what I hear from it is, you know, there is, there's a lot of discourse that's already been happening, but sometimes when an issue is brought to light, more people enter that discourse because maybe it's something they didn't initially see or think about before or simply because it didn't affect them in their lives to say, like, hey, wait a second. Even though this isn't about something I can relate to, you know, what does this mean for this person? And why should I then care?

01:02:20 I'm just amazed that, oh, gosh, I'm not a man hater. Please, please know I'm married. Been married for 30 some years. I do not hate men, but I'm just surprised that we have old men, white old men making all the decisions. Like what? Like, for me, that's like a woman's issue, right? Like, hey, wait a minute. Like you said, all those guys coming up asking you questions because they don't have any idea, but yet those are the people who would be making laws.

01:02:59 Yeah, that's also with, like, not having any doctors that they're consulting for, like, medical things like that. Like, I totally agree. You need to have, like, more diversity in terms of, like, backgrounds of education as well as just like, the people that the laws are actually going to be impacting.

01:03:17 And, you know, one of the things that we learned going to Africa, because you're the minority and it's not necessarily, there's not a race issue where we served. So it wasn't black and white, but it was american, not zambian. And obviously they could tell you, well, they could tell we were nothing zambian because we're white. And so when you are the minority, like, it gives you a whole new perspective of what minorities feel like in the US. Like, we would be at the bank and an African would just cut the line in front of us. And when we would look at them, they were. They would be like, we're zambian. We don't wait in line. And there wasn't anything we could do about it. Like. Right. Because we're the minority. So it really helped us understand. Okay. Yeah, we don't feel this at home, but, boy, I could understand what somebody at home who's a minority could feel like based on those experiences. I think everybody needs to get out of their comfort zone and really, like, it gives you more compassion.

01:04:37 I think one last thing I'll just say is that I think on that topic, representation really does matter in these spaces, whether we're talking political spaces, non governmental, organizational spaces, just being able to travel, Kim, as you detailed, being able to have that perspective that you just simply wouldn't get. Being the individual you are. You know, that's. That's simply, you know, how we get to know each other as people and get to, you know, fight for one another and be able to kind of advocate for one another in moments like the both of you, I think, really beautifully highlighted in your conversation. And so, yeah, and with that being said, you know, I did just want to give you both a moment, if you had any last minute sort of questions or comments to share with one another, because I will be having to hit stop soon on the record that, you know, you can feel free to do that right now. I just want to say that I had. It was really enjoyable to be able to, like, talk about all of this and also to, like, see someone who came from a background that was, like, similar to mine in terms of, like, the church and all that. But also to see that that's not, like, the defining factor in terms of, like, meaning that you have to act a certain way or fit the entire, like, stereotype of someone who's more in touch with their religious beliefs.

01:06:09 And I enjoyed it too, and I enjoyed your openness. And I love the idea that you and your dad do this right? Because that has prepared you to not be so short sighted. And I love the idea that you're very young and that I get to get a look into your generation. And seriously, if you ever need a place to have pizza, you can come to Ruckersville. I mean, I would love to, like, have, you know, just have, like, I don't want to be in your business. I'm not weird or anything like that, but just, you know, just to say, hey, let's go. Let's go have some coffee and see what else we can discover that we know about it. You know, we're on the same page.

01:07:00 Yeah.

01:07:01 Or volunteer someplace together based on the fact that we both, you know, a soup kitchen or something like that. So. Nadia You're free to pass on my email address to Maria, and if she wants to get in touch with me, that's great. And if not, that's okay, too. Of course, I won't sit up and cry at night or anything.