Marie Wolfe and Nancy Wamer

00:02 My name is Marie Wolfe. I am 59 years old. It is December 29th 2020 and we are recording this from East Lansing, Michigan. Nancy. Warner is my interview partner, and she's also my spouse.

00:16 Hello, my name is Nancy Warner and my age is 67. Today is December 29th, 2020 and I'm also in East Lansing with my spouse Marie.

00:28 Summary when you were growing up, what were your first thoughts about getting married and having children?

00:34 Well as a little girl and with my friends in the neighborhood, it was just a given that you were going to grow up get married and have kids and ideally live happily ever after I love children and always assumed that they were being a huge part of my life. However, as I came out to myself is gay in the early 1980s, it seems like one of the losses that was associated with that was having children being able to have children but in the early 1990s there was a moms group formed in the area and through that I watched Friends adoption Aldrin and give birth through either artificial insemination or using in vitro fertilization. So I always kept that in the back of my mind during that time. I was working in my career as a police officer with the city of Lansing Police Department leader a k9 Handler and a sergeant at the department and then I went to law school. Of time.

01:30 So did you did you then as far as considering having children in your life? What did you do then?

01:37 All right after law school, or the first thing at the top of my to-do list after taking the bar exam was to meet and I connect with dr. Sauer who was one of the leading infertility specialist in the area where I understood was quite open to assisting folks getting pregnant whether they were single straight gay would have you and I met dr. Sauer. Very first time and told him that I was single at that time. I'd like to get pregnant and have children and I heard he was the man for the job and after we got done laughing we got started down that process and I worked with him for a several years going through that process. I meant Genie in August of 2000 and at that time she was also single and she was very cute charming and sweet and we eventually dated and fell in love.

02:24 After a couple years of dating we brought a home together and moved in in 2002. I was still trying at the way to get pregnant at that time and I had tried for a total of about three years without a nail. Genie had told me though early and it if I got pregnant don't plan on her sticking around because she didn't want anything to do with children at the time. But as I came to the end of my trying to get pregnant and our relationship progressed Jeanne decided that she wanted to also try to have children and she tried for a number of years as well, but it didn't work. So I've had time I start to fill out paperwork to be considered for adoption Jenny suggested that we consider in vitro fertilization, but that was hugely expensive and it seemed cost-prohibitive to me at the time. But you said that you really felt like by that time she was born and put on this Earth to Bear a child. So it was really important to her and we progressed and decided we would try at least one shot. I've been in vitro for

03:24 Station

03:26 So what was that process like?

03:29 What have a lot of these standard hormone injections and monitoring of temperature is in ovulations and things of that nature but also the two-step procedure to that. The first portion was really difficult and very painful for Genie where there was an egg retrieval at the appropriate time in her cycle. And then we got a number of good eggs out of that and that the doctor had utilize the sperm from the sperm donor that we had identified and we're using and did his magic in his lab and we had been learned that only two of the eggs have been successfully fertilized during that time. We were in contact with the doctor or his office daily. And at one point I got a call from him that he didn't like what he was seeing Which is far as a progression of a growth of the cells. So he had wanted to do the implantation earlier than what he had. Ideallean mind.

04:22 Jean and I met him at a hospital at the hospital early on a Sunday and I think it was just the three of us and I knew at that point that I was just with witnessing a miracle with each of the implantation would they were done under a scope of sorts if you could actually see a bright flash of light as cuz I got were released under the scope a back into Genies uterus. So then we waited and it seems like a really long week we knew we had to wait for a full week. So the following Sunday we went outside we went down and Jeanne and I had a blood test and then we went out to breakfast and went home to wait and hear from the doctor.

05:00 I'm very long morning turned into an equally long afternoon and I ended up calling the on-call number at his office and was told the doctor saw her was at the Tigers game and if he'd give a call at some point, we also turn the game on the TV and fell asleep on the couch only to be woken up by just an incredible phone call. I could tell the minute. Dr. Sauer got genie on the telephone and I could hear and he was actually asking her if she was sitting down and we knew right then it was great news, but it got even better because he said that given the numbers in one of the blood test results and it looks like we're going to have twins. So they're both of the fertilized eggs would have taken we had absolute tears of joy in amazement and then for me at turn really quickly to one's a super responsibility with what was going to change our lives.

05:49 Incredibly amazing. So Genie pregnant and you're expecting twins. What were you thinking then and how does her pregnancy go do some of my immediate thoughts were how could I keep Jeannie healthy taking care of well fed and help make our home into a welcoming home and get the nursery properly prepared for the children are the pregnancy experience itself was awesome. Genie was just a champ since she was petite and had juvenile diabetes and we'll be over 35 at the time of their birth. And this was considered to be a high risk pregnancy for the start. So we had an awful lot of doctors appointments a lot of Mana drain a lot of Education in a lot of reassurance. I was able to go to every appointment with her and together we shared in the join the amazement of the entire process as we watch the children grow over the course of the different ultrasounds. We also got to do a lot of help out and Mitzi was super helpful. She was very educational, call me voice of experience.

06:50 Genie was able to work up to the week before the children were born and we also during that time had just a lot of fun picking out names especially since we once learned that there was a girl and a boy so we were going to have a daughter and a son in terms of their name is my father's name was Philip James Wolfe and he often sign thing as using his initials of PJ. So I had always thought that it'd be great to have a boy and reverse it so that the boy would have a first name of a j and the middle name of a P4 Philip after my dad Genie agreed and we landed on Jonah Philip for the little girl. We had fun exploring last names as well and landed for her after Harper Lee the author of that incredible book To Kill a Mockingbird. I had originally hoped to name a daughter with the middle name of my paternal grandmother open, but then when we discuss the with my mom and dad Harper's name and I have mentioned that Harper opal up in exactly roll off your tongue. My mom said don't feel obligated to have Uncle do it was easy then to use the middle name for make

07:50 Mill namely because not only was it with the author's last name, but that was my mom's middle name as well. So we had Jonah Philip and her curly Genie during this time was during assistant that the children were going to have my last name a wolf and she had she had been estranged from her family since she was a teenager. So before the children were born she even went to court and legally changed her last name to mine in order for our family to all have the same last name as the wolf, which is what she told the judge then we went to parenting classes together and Cook Children's CPR class at some point during the process. We also had pregnancy photos taken and Mitzi are dual made a cast of us with my arms around Genies stomach at the point in time when she was very pregnant. Truly amazing. What kind of support did you have?

08:41 Well, we were just so blessed on in January of 2005 our friends hosted just an incredible baby shower. They were some members of Genies family who came her grandmother and a couple of aunts my family and lots of our very supportive and enthusiastic friends we had about fifty people there my brother provided and prepared the food. We got so many joyful helpful fun, baby things from toys and clothes and diapers to stuffed animals swings in high chairs and lots of Glorious books as February came. I started to wash Jonah and her Brews close with that special really good smelling laundry soap for babies. It was amazing and joyful for me to think that we had stocks that song our house and that the little feet to feel those socks would soon be here on our house after all these years of hoping and dreaming

09:32 I can imagine it was a lot of anticipation as the due date approached. What was the birth like?

09:39 Originally, the children's due date was around March 7th, and we were expected and prepared for them to come early but dr. Sarwar decided then she was doing so well that he would induce labor at the end of February. Our bags had long been packed are waiting by our door and so on that Monday morning, we went to the hospital and she needed was given the medication to induce labor. I believe it's called pitocin and we waited as she was my turn for several hours and nothing really significant occurred have a doctorate told us that it might take a while. So we went home and waited expectantly. No pun intended the next morning March 1st. We went back to the hospital for round two and we're monitoring there had been a really significant snow storm overnight and the labor and delivery was just packed after Genie had gotten the medication. We were told to go home and return of things progressed. It was a very busy place at the time, but this really didn't feel right to me that day something just fell off.

10:37 And so I insisted that they at least check out monitor the babies who we knew then 2BR join our precious son and her per our precious daughter they seem to reluctantly agree and we ended up in a back hallway where they put Genie In A reclining lazy boy type chair and hooked up to the monitors for the children. I've seen those monitors lots of times at her doctor's appointments and I had a really good idea of what to look at and what good numbers in the different ranges were when we were all alone in the hallway.

11:06 Shortly didn't take long but one of the sets of numbers for one of the babies did not look good and I went to find somebody and alert them once they able to come over and look at the monitors literally all hell broke loose it Turley. It truly turned into an emergency situation.

11:24 They were teams of doctors and nurses and technicians that came running from different areas and they literally wield another expected mom out of her room into the hallway and then brush genie in. I called our Duo who began to head to the hospital Jeanne and I were both really scared at that point in time. I called my dad and he was just wonderful and very reassuring on the telephone. He promised it God would be with us.

11:49 And Joan and Harper and that everything would be okay.

11:53 Did you and Jeannie have a plan to things have not gone smoothly or what? What happened next?

12:00 But we did have a plan and we put that plan into place at the staff. Let me be with me the whole way cost me a set of Scrubs telling me to get ready for the delivery. He was physically positioned in such a fashion that helps slow down the labor of that process just a little bit since I knew how important it was to her to have mids, er do love with her. I asked if we could safely wait until Mets. He had arrived to Tachi one of the OBGYNs for the practice who we knew was there and he evaluated the situation and said they would be would be able to hold off for a short trip time. I miss you arrived and Jeanne and she and I met briefly and she was very reassuring and comforting.

12:39 Then me and I were hustled into the delivery room and I had known that there would be a medical team for each child one for Genie. But I had no idea there be that many people in the room. It seems like you're about 24 people in there.

12:51 Jeannie was quickly prepped in the C-section was underway and Jonah was delivered first at about 1:12 p.m. And was very big pink healthy and crying.

13:00 I felt in that moment such joy that I never knew before is I saw him and tried to describe them to Jeannie. He was perfect. They quickly handed him off to his team. And then Harper was taken out less than a minute earlier or later rather and at that time my joy turn into shock and horror is our precious little girl with black and not moving and immediately taken by a team of doctors and staff down away from Genies Pete. Her arm as They carried her away was limp and they ran her towards the table in your a team of doctors and nurse nurses that immediately started working on her.

13:38 My joy of felt like I just ran into a brick wall at about a hundred miles an hour.

13:45 I remember hearing the doctor yelling repeatedly breathe, baby breathe.

13:52 And my heart just sank.

13:55 I quickly turned a genie and tried to reassure her that it was all going to be. Okay. She did great and I started to pray like I had never prayed before they worked frantically over a little girl and there were discussions about best procedures and whether or not to try to get her up to the neonatal Intensive Care Unit or keep her there and work on her eventually dr. Tocci and dr. Barry who is working on that the children. Dr. Tocci decided that John and Jeanne could go to one area, but the Harper would clearly need some extra care the genie and I have decided in advance that I would stay with either baby that had an issue and miss you will be with Jenny and the other baby.

14:33 After what seemed like a really long time they took Harper and I to a large room with all kinds of monitors and specialized staff. She was finally able to be breathing. Okay on her home, but her blood sugar wasn't separated from genius as they had explained it to me. There's also a concern that she may have swallowed some meconium during the birthing process and all the hustle and bustle of it was around me. I sat there with that precious little girl and she held onto my little finger for hours.

15:01 A running a large portable x-ray machine to x-ray her and see what she might have ingested, but she was alive. Thanks for the excellent care provided by dr. Berry and her staff.

15:13 After several hours and interventions Harper was doing well enough to be reunited with her mother Jeanne and her brother Jonah go to look great in the snuggle with him with his mom and Miss had been providing some support for Genie. It was magnificent to finally be taken to our room and have a chance to Marble with each other just by ourselves with what her family had just become Genie was tired, but really joyful as well.

15:36 Marie I can't imagine all the emotion and finally the joy release about being together in one room. So now I imagine the realization hits of needing to actually care for your two precious children. How did that go?

15:50 All the nursing staff came in and they showed me how to properly wrap them in their blankets and smuggle them in like burritos. They call them and change the diaper being really careful with her umbilical cord area. It turned out in the last month while Jonah had continued to grow and put on weight Harper did not likely to do to some of her positioning are there so precious and so little but they seem so really fragile to me at one point. I realized it just kind of took a deep breath Lee stroller needed care. Genie was recovering in her hospital bed not able to get up and I was going to be the one to care for them but took a deep breath and tentatively jump into changing diapers swaddling them and rocking them. That was just pure joy.

16:33 One of the things I had to do before we left the hospital was call the pediatrician's office to set up their first appointment and I remember thinking to myself. Okay. I have to be somewhere at a certain time with two little babies and he's not able to be able to go with me. So that seems a little bit daunting, but we got through it.

16:51 We were discharged from the hospital on a Saturday and our pastor her spouse helped us get them home from the hospital had previously had a local police officer double check the installation of the car seat. So we seems pretty good to go great. So it's time to take your children home. How did it go taking your little bundles of Joy home?

17:12 Well, it was an incredible trip home and getting settled in and we were so fortunate and blessed with a number of our friends had very generously circulated the sign up sheet and different people brought meals to us for their first few weeks. I so appreciated that help but Genie would later complain that I didn't protect her which seems really odd to me. I asked her what she meant after the fact that she said that I should have protected her from our friends. The very ones were coming in with food also share their well-wishes bring gifts and see the children if they weren't sleeping, but at that time she'd never said anything to me about about that. So how in the world was I to know that these repeated Gifts of love and support we're upsetting to her.

17:57 Fortunately though I was off on family medical leave for about 13 weeks. And this was a really glorious time that allowed me to be there with the children and Genie and help to get them off to a good start. My work ahead has a baby shower for us after the kids were born and we were even able to take them into that. So we had an awful lot of support of friends and colleagues and even people who were strangers to me one day while I was walking downtown in the fall. I was stopped by a woman who's very prominent in the community. I didn't have any idea. She knew who I was she came up to me and told me how proud she was that we had the children that we had a bunch of support and she just wished us. Well, that's pretty awesome giving them a lot of time. Were you able to adopt the children?

18:43 But leading up to the children's birth. Jeannie had approached me about doing what is known as a second-parent adoption to explain it as something that happened to her. She didn't want her parents or family trying to take the kids away from me or their home. I had not really given that a thought up to that point time, but we checked into that and ended up using an adoption agency and an attorney who explained it in Michigan at the time same-sex parents adoptions were not specifically allowed or disallowed given how the law was written the agency Personnel in the attorney explained that there are certain judges in the state who are performing what was known as a second-parent adoption to assist same-sex couples who are parents and protect the parenting that perfect prep rental rights in the children. So on June 15th 2005, we went before a judge platter Block in Shiawassee County is the neighboring County with the children.

19:36 In a two-step hearing process. Do you need relinquish your parental rights and the very first step to the kids and then we turned around and saw those are formally terminated and then we turned around and jointly adopted them in the second step of the hearing. We got add option orders Christina's both as the adoptive parents and Genie leave later filed with the state of Michigan for an amended birth certificates. They were issued listing us as part 1 and track 2. She said she had did that because she was starting to hear of a couple of that had twins in our County that has separated recently and the birth mother was keeping their other parents from them, but genius showed me that that would never happen to us.

20:17 And you know what it never occurred to me that it could.

20:21 How did it go with adjusting to your new family situation one of your long-time sought-after goals what happened those first months, but we settled into a routine at home that was totally driven by the sleep and feeding schedule of those precious little infants the well known to all parents of newborns and we became deliriously exhausted and course. Genie was still healing from the C-section those first few weeks. I remember looking at the clock that we had hanging on the wall and wondered if as I looked at it was it same 12:30 or 6. We ended up bringing a digital clock downstairs tour living main living area because we were really disoriented at that time.

21:02 I further understood it was really a challenge, but I looked at the clock one day and wondered aloud to Genie asking her is it 3:20 a.m. Or 3:20 p.m. We are that tuckered out at the time each morning that we would bring us back a t-shirt downstairs is our day started because the children know at that time were vomiting so much. They're quite sick and they're throwing up in all kinds of different ways was really concerning. So we began exploring with the doctors in various medical staff what was potentially wrong and how could we help them feel better?

21:32 After early morning feedings part of our routine with that we headed back upstairs for a nap and we'd have fun playing with Harper by putting her actually hiding in plain view in a different room her favorite stuffed animal which is the drafting Douglas given the tag on his backside weed Wonder aloud. Where is Douglas and she's looking she giggled beyond belief when she found them this week. Her and her brother around looking for Douglas. Then she snuggle in with her giraffe and sneeze and Joan on the same way would lovingly cuddle with his favorite stuffed animal. I named fluffle.

22:04 L during those first weeks and once I just treasured reading to them working with them on tummy time as they learn to hold their necks up their heads up doing stimulating activities with them rocking holding them feeding them dressing them even changing their diapers bundling them up and putting them in there either one stroller or their dual jogger and taking walks around your neighborhood is spring turned into summer. It was nice to feel the warmth of the Sun in the gentle breezes and I probably push them all throughout our neighborhood. I love loving them and helping them grow and develop

22:43 What did you do to decide about logistics of daycare and supporting the family at that time?

22:49 We decided that it was a very important us to have one of us stay home and actively raise the kids as opposed to sending them to daycare to have other race other folks raised them that works for some families and that's at the great option. But that was really are strong preference if we could swing it and well with tight financially we were privileged to be able to do this on my salary and Jeannie decided she'd rather be the one to stay home with the kids. So she had quit her job and my job offered same-sex partner benefits and I could ensure the children on my health care as well since I've adopted them. So Genie was covered as well as the kids Insurance wise and I return to work and after I ended up returning to work we were so blessed to have our friend Aunt Sue who is willing to come and drive over to the house every day over a 35 minute drive each morning to come help Jeanie with the children and stay with them all day during the week until I got home at night.

23:45 Well, I was at work. They call me everyday and I need to talk with him over the phone or they leave these really cute silly messages with the babies making cute sounds in the background.

23:55 When I got home from work in the evening, we would have fun cheering the kids out to her car and saying a very playful goodbye to Aunt Sue when she left every day or second parent adoption birth certificates arrived in the mail. And at that time I was on top of the world and we are finally getting a handle on the kids food issues at the end of each glorious day with the children. We would pick up the house already are home for the next day of parenting and child fun later when I look back and try to figure out what was wrong. I think about the time that we were working with Joan and Harper and trying to discover what they was going on food-wise and they had some significant food allergies and they were really sick for a long. Of time with severe gastroesophageal reflux disease or GERD.

24:40 After we learn about their allergies to one of Jonas was the penis and Genies go to comfort food with peanut M&Ms. So clearly he was getting that through his her breast milk, which probably wasn't helping the doctors have recommended a special formula and that then meant the genie would have to stop breastfeeding at children and I'm sure that played havoc on her body at the time and hormones. But anyhow each night to get off to head upstairs to bed and I get down on my knees after he got them tucked in and thank God for those children and our family and I'd ask him to protect them. And also keep those children safe in the please not let them die from SIDS the sudden infant death syndrome, which was quite a concern.

25:24 And I felt in my heart that God was reassuring me that Sid's wouldn't be an issue for those kids. But the children were going to have some challenges in their lives a little did. I know Norwood.

25:36 Yes, they're honestly a lot of challenges caring for newborn twins even more. So with babies with health issues when did things begin to change in your relationship with Genie?

25:48 On President's Day of 2006 which is the same week of their birthdays. I was scrubbing the kitchen floor on my hands and knees when Jamie came over and said that she had had enough of being in a relationship with me and she's done. We've been struggling a little bit as partners off and on but this really blindsided me. I felt a super deep sense of panic, you know, well other relationships head and ended that I hadn't life knows were devastating or upsetting in their own right for different reasons. This was drastically different because of the involvement of the children and I really felt a great fear in a panic and tried to call me discuss this with Jenny and at that time she could see my pain in my concern and we stood in the kitchen and she reassured me. Don't worry, you will always be there equal co-parent. They will always be Jonah and Harper wolf and I took great comfort in that. I wanted to take them great comfort in that.

26:42 Only later when I fill my tire disbelief and horror when Jeanne had casually told me one day that she was a good liar. I kind of put that all together. I mean when the world says that what type of person would take pride in that?

26:58 But continuing with that week we did end up holding the children's one year birthday party on February 26th, that was the same day we had the baptized at our church and then planned well in advance for Jeanne rock my world and ended our relationship my parents and siblings and their families came up to East Lansing and the number of our friends came and we had two sets of godparents because I figured two babies for godparents that thing just wait for me I'll Minister Karen was awesome and I was so happy and blessed and proud as she walked around the sanctuary carrying our babies and the congregation sang the song. I was there to hear your borning cry which is the ritual for baptisms at our church. We done took everyone out to celebrate and had birthday cake then ended up all over the baby's my dad who is struggling with a terminal illness. He then he was there although he wasn't feeling very well that day.

27:47 Do you mean I continue to live in the house and work together to care for the children? But on Saturday June 10th, we were planning to go to a friend's celebration party as they had finalized and adoption. Do you need it want to go with me? So she has said she would take the children to some of her friends in the morning. Bring them home around noon and then I could take them to the party.

28:07 Why Was preparing their food that day to take with us the phone rang and it was Jeanne of the day that would change my life forever she said that really cold voice that she Jonah and Harper weren't coming home ever again

28:21 And I fell on my knee sobbing and she said to me after I asked her when I was going to see the children again that my lawyer could contact for lawyer.

28:31 Unbelievable. So your worst nightmare just occurred what to do next.

28:38 What I was beyond devastated I didn't have a lawyer. I was avoiding her assistant prosecuting attorney which was a job that I really enjoyed and valued and the ensuing Court battle when I file for custody was absolutely horrible. There are a lot of unpleasant stories with that court case but one that I'll share and I'll save most of them for later is that in a deposition? Jeannie's attorney even would count the numbers of hours that I was there during the week with the kids while they were awake and just really Snidely remark that I barely saw the children. Anyways, like why did I need to be in their lives and course? He didn't add the weekend hours or anything like that, but she also totally it intentionally left out the fact that somebody had to go to work and be able to provide for the family pay the bills. It was incredible and Beyond hurtful, which sadly I think was the point where you were you seen Jenny are the kids at this point.

29:37 Go ahead and initial couple very short visitations with the kids. And then there was a dismissal won a challenge with the court process that was being appealed. And then one day when I was at work, I got a phone call from a police retirement from a neighboring jurisdiction for my house who said ask me what the status of my of my relationship with the children was I told him that things run a few at that point in time and he said why don't you come get your children because otherwise they're going to have to go to foster care and I didn't know what had happened but what he explained with the genie and had a bit of a mental breakdown had threatened to kill the kids and herself and she was being taken to the mental health hospital and they needed care for the children. So, of course, I jumped in my car and home. The car seats and was able to take them and I had them for three incredible additional weeks that I just pressured the reunions with and we just had great love and joy, I've been know there was a time when that pussy

30:37 Judge at the time. I said, I wasn't going to get any more parenting time because in his mind giving my status I had already had enough parenting time. So there was a reassignment of Judges at one point and I was waiting for the next court date and I remember asking asking Genie through my attorney to her attorney to be able to see the children and take them to see my dad who is dying.

31:01 Jeannie refused my dad ended up buying a few months later.

31:07 Before his passing though. He told me that he would watch over all of us and the kids from heaven and I took a lot of comfort in that.

31:15 The result do what the court was ultimately that despite some ups and downs mostly down. I lost any and all rights. I had two parents join in Harper and that changed my life forever shirt change theirs as well. Genie basically took them from our comfortable middle-class life into poverty.

31:34 I had offered a number of times during the entire court process to pay child support in Genies response to me always was I'd rather be on state assistance and take anything from you at our last hearing date the judge made his ruling just missing my custody petition and he also ordered that I pay all of Genies label bills Not only was at emotionally and financially devastating but it just about crushed me.

31:57 But when the judge left the courtroom that day I got down on my knees and I prayed for Jeanne and for Jonah after Harper and I knew I had to forgive her right there on the spot.

32:09 So sorry Marie how how devastating given the magnitude of this decision? How do you manage to continue and Go On

32:20 Well, it was an easy. I'm a Christian though in my faith and belief in God and Reliance on him the support of some incredible friends and my family and my Minister really help keep me going in the aftermath of this very devastating chapter of life. I landed on the idea of wanting to live in order to be able to see how life would turn out. I also knew that I really needed to own an embrace my forgiveness of Jeannie because as a Christian when you say the Lord's Prayer, what's the point if we can't forgive others as God has forgiven us, which we stay in their prayer besides I could not hear you all those negative feelings towards you if I wanted and hope to heal

33:00 You might try to honor the children in ways that I can I make various donations in their honor. I sponsor a day through our local public radio station w k r on their birthdays this year. The dedication is going to read and sell them as it does every year just changes the the year but it says in celebration of Jonah and her purse 16th birthdays with love from Marie there other mother and you Nancy my wonderful and so patient spouse you and I will put flowers on the altar enter Church celebrating their birthdays on or about March 1st. Every year number them. Rihanna said it has been heartbreaking to see your heartbreak over and over again in the eight years. I've known you I remember the first time we met over dinner in 2012. This would have been six years from when you had last seen John and Harper tears welled up in your eyes just mentioning the children the pain and hurt was so very real and present in your life and truly at the very service of your thoughts. Were you

34:00 For the most caring thoughtful and generous selfless rice-like woman. I've met and as our relationship grew and we decided to share a home together. I remember walking into your home the first time the still find the nursery room with a crib changing tables and all the accessories that made for a warm loving place for Harper and Jonah didn't realize the incredible love you have for children and I see you're actually bar nieces and nephews and know beyond a shadow of a doubt that you are the best parent any child to be blessed to have them provide to them and help them grow into adults. You truly have a god-given gift.

34:41 What are your thoughts about being able to see John and Harper again someday?

34:47 Well, that would be just glorious.

34:50 I know my mom is convinced that this is going to occur someday, and I'm hopeful that maybe as they get older that will happen. So I try to focus and stay healthy and get ready for the day that they may try and contact me I sure pray for them daily and I've set up a state document so that they'll be recognized as the role they have in my life. And you know, I feel so awful for so many reasons and one is that as I was raised but if you want something Southern Gul work real hard give it your best effort and see it happen through sheer strength of your own efforts. And in this matter, I feel like I did all I could and it didn't work out so that I could still be in their lives. So I really do feel like I failed.

35:33 And you're the one of the things that saddens me greatly as they missed out on so much here. They had and have loving grandparents Aunts Uncles cousins godparents and loving support of friends including answer to who would all love to see see them and love them to support them in some form or fashion. And you know as a side note that case I mentioned earlier in our County with the two women in their twins going to the oral argument at the court of appeals to offer my support months later that case was decided in favor of non birth parent was able to maintain a frontal relationship with her children. I knew it always felt that the laws would be changing as they have continued to but I also said we had the feeling that it would be too long or too wouldn't be soon enough for John on Harper and I really sad to me very very very unfortunate.

36:32 Well, I have to tell you I would start by Whispering into their ears. Like I did every time when they were little I just get ahold of him and I tell them that I love them.

36:43 More than all the grains of sand on this Earth on all the beaches.

36:49 And then more than all the inches in a trip to the moon and back combined together and that was just how much I love them for starters.

36:59 So it's hard, but in the meantime.

37:03 My hopes and prayers from John and Harper are that they feel loved and safe and are given opportunities for a great education and wonderful life experiences. I hope they have good people in your life.

37:18 I hope that you wanted Harper is drunk people and have good coping skills. They're respectful and have good moral compasses. I hope they're curious about the world and people around them and I continue to believe this doctor tanks that look like ago.

37:35 Did the Arc of the moral universe is long and it bends towards Justice.

37:40 I also believe that God is in charge and I'm really hopeful that the future may bring about a meeting with Harper and Joanna that could perhaps lead towards re-establishing our relationship.

37:52 I wish those children.

37:55 And her mother Katie

37:57 The best and I'll continue to pray for them.

38:01 I think it's so important then in our World memes pop up on Facebook and things like that about you can be anything in the world can be anything you choose to be. So choose to be kind.

38:15 That's how I approached the world to be kind and to try to recognize that. We don't know.

38:23 At any given day anybody you need what they may be dealing with and kindness.

38:31 And love and support have gotten me through a long way and I'm so grateful and so DLC. I thank you, Thank you for your role in my life and helping me to recover and heal and have a productive and wonderful life and I think you for your support in this to my thank-you Moran. Thank you for sharing the story. It's heartfelt story and will be in through this together. Thank you so much.