Mario James and Lothar Konietzko

00:01 All right, My name is Mario James. I am 29 years old and I am in Lansing, Michigan.

00:09 My name is lothar konietzko and I live in Charlotte, Michigan.

00:21 Alright, so

00:24 I got the kick things off. You are mr. K which I will be probably referring you to mr. K is as we go along with this my High School AP US History teacher.

00:40 That is correct and some years ago about what was what year did you graduate? I graduated in 2011.

00:53 So I probably had you for the 2007 2008 year. I think I think I had you for regular history as well. And I got to say that before your class. I genuinely did not like learning history.

01:10 Yeah, and I sure do a lot, you know, it's wild because when I became a teacher, I really wanted to be a teacher that students enjoyed going to the class work and a lot of it I put on like a teacher that I had at where I graduated from Okemos high school, but old history teacher named Gerald Oberlin and he just pulled a great story and history and you couldn't be born in this class since I wanted to not be that boring teacher and read it going to class 4 and try to maintain that for 20 years as a teacher. Hopefully I am I would I would die for my ends at the nou few converted me to be an appreciator of History. I use in my the principles. I guess. I'm learning from history and things and

02:05 And my job dated a kind of a big part of what I do, but there's appreciation for history learning from history really ties into what we're talking about today, which would be building repairing maintaining relationships between different races of people and the United States.

02:35 Yeah, that's definitely a topic that is very timely right now with you know, the the death of mr. George Floyd and in the protests that have occurred from Adam the black lives matter movement that gained a lot of strength from you know, the current situation and mood of the country has a history teacher. It just keeps me scratch my head of will we ever learn from history and you know, most adults might run into history with a class. I did not enjoy in all this people my age, you know, they they didn't care for history when they took it but now that they're older they're the people that really like to watch The History Channel like a good documentary Love Ken Burns start reading some male historical nonfiction books, maybe even take on somebody like David.

03:35 Paula and have a stronger appreciation for history as adult than they did when they were younger and in a really interesting thing to observe and all and now I'm teaching AP u.s. History teaching economics in the class. I need call a multicultural studies. And you know, I'm hoping to still be able to do a lot of the historical subject matter, but I didn't eat pee in my elective quick question. Are they watching The History Channel for historical stuff for 4-H and Aliens? Cuz I think that's all that is locked and I don't have cable or satellite. So I really don't know what is currently on this week Channel, you know, most of the places I go for documentary stuff is either.

04:35 Ashley from DVD on PBS now especially things that you know, Ken Burns so sorry what makes you really enjoy history. I think at this point what when I started taking your class what really made me enjoy history was that it wasn't all just George Washington was just kind of what you know the public school system while at least what I had learned up until that point was pretty much like George Washington Abraham Lincoln area, and the king would like American history.

05:15 Like some some of the native people are the First Nations people, you know, you discussed but really it was confined is very confined to a few stories and I just get old they get very old after awhile and you start when you can't really tile out of the stuff together.

05:35 It gets boring real quick people would say that you know history is just names dates and and memorization of names and dates and that's where you get people who are tired and bored and fed up with it and I'll becomes a boring topic because oh, yeah 1776 we have the revolution 1941 Pearl Harbor and there's so much more than just names and dates and all there is is turning turning points in history that are associated with names and dates. But a lot of people don't look at history as where are the turning points. I think that's what makes things. You know more interesting to think about is right. Yeah. Yeah, I think when will you start to learn those in-between?

06:30 You know the events that occur that spark off, you know, the Revolutionary War that spark off, you know the world war and you know that the social climate, you know in between these stages right now. These are these Milestones is Major point is really how you can start to study history and see the development of the people and how we get to that point in the first place. Do you have a favorite area of History?

07:03 You know, I I like to pick it up. I don't know if I'd say that I have a favorite point. I would like to say that I like to recognize the patterns in history as I learn about it.

07:15 That's kind of what I point out points to my job. Now. Is that more or less than looking at?

07:24 This event that's happening right now looking at the trends too determined to determine like how we are here and how we can avoid being in that spot in the future. Yeah that whole thing of chow or country is where it is at the moment with racial tension and just tension in general. You know that I always tell my students I think, you know, we really blew it an opportunity over a hundred years ago after the Civil War during the. Of reconstruction. We have the opportunity to make things right we started down that road and then that crazy election of 1876 comes along and roofer dehaes takes the White House with a compromise that put some in there and then everything goes no pun intended, but literally and figuratively

08:24 Bright and soul from that. Of reconstruction ending all the way to the 1920s, you know with return the veterans from World War 1 or African Americans not wanting to put up with being treated like crap anymore and earning their agency. If we should tow in all the same thing repeating around World War II returning and then the 50 by 60 in the city and oh my God how many times have we had an opportunity to get this issue right drive to issue of race and lationships with each other. You know, I think that's kind of what I find. So interesting about it as being able to pinpoint those things and seeing you're not only how you know, identifying them a situation would have been corrected, you know, where he knows things. I could have gone differently, but why didn't they go differently?

09:24 I think a lot of it has to do with just you know, the the Hot Topic word right now is like systemic racism and that's really all that I can.

09:36 Points to is like they're a very purposeful desire to keep African American people at the bottom in this country. It isn't just African-American people write. Is it digital Tino and Native American people. I mean if there's a history of keeping people down because by keeping people down it benefits somebody else right in the end of the question. I was trying to ask get the students to think about is who benefits from this benefits from the you know, the way the Civil War ended who benefits from housing discrimination and redlining who benefits from the school-to-prison pipeline crucial thing. I can say in all the we got it wrong after reconstruction, but you know, I have we got it wrong since

10:36 They want you know what the country has never really been on the footing of equality, right? And you know, so you won't let me strive towards I think and we have these ups and downs and bumpy periods. And sometimes I feel like we make progress and I think we have but then other times it's like two steps forward one step back. I think that's the big thing is that it comes down to like you said the two steps forward one step back and how do we just take the two steps forward and keep on that way and take another step forward and you know just really short like lesson that ratio of steps forward two steps backwards, but I think

11:24 I think as we look at things and we look at you know history and you are not what we see is that the steps forward a really kind of there like baby steps if their baby stops right there or word in a lot of ways in there.

11:43 The kind of Gibby's I would I would argue a lot of ways because you know, it's like we're giving you the right to vote but we are going to make all these voter ID laws. Are we going to start to gerrymander the the district's or we're going to make it really difficult to for you to vote in general and in your area. And so when that happens, it's like yeah, we're giving you this here's your equality that you wanted so bad, but

12:14 Is it really is window dressing? It's taking out. Forward. That's been difficult. I think right. Okay, you want to drink with the same following are you go you want to eat at the same restaurants? Here you go, but we don't have to serve you at this restaurant. If the owner chooses not to we still aren't going to let you live in this area. If we don't want you to write we're still going to keep your school's guy rages because different policies and things at that. We're going to implement and put in place. So it's like bear crawls, you know, it's almost like an army crawl and towards, you know full equality, but it's like you said it's kind of window dressing. It's not the whole thing right away. And that's just the kind of where we would like to get to I think it hadn't been for most people want to get to but I think again going back to the systemic peace of all of this the system doesn't want you to the people in

13:14 Our don't really want that.

13:18 That's that's what I would argue. It makes me think of Booker T Washington and w e b DuBois and that whole thing up the boys wanting full quality right now because Constitution says we should have for Quality right now in Washington's more gradual approach the gradualism of getting to the quality and improving Worth to the American economy, you know, it should be as simple as everybody should be treated the same equal opportunity under the law and like you said it there all these things that I've been put in place that chip away at that and you know, the 14th Amendment is it's a really incredible amount in our Constitution and I think about it just in terms of being like a teacher

14:18 In an urban School District in Lansing right where it say, hi minority population and you know some of the things that I've got to deal with that as an educator that other in all teachers in other more affluent areas don't have to deal with and you know, I'm not worried. He'll the standards that the state is set up that are almost impossible to tear each with limited resources, you know, like the whole attendance thing in the urban school district and high absenteeism. What's the reasons for the wrong reasons? Why kids are watching younger siblings while parent is off on a part-time job because they don't have any cash for a babysitter or something and we have to meet requirements of you know, so many people participating in the standardized test day.

15:18 In all the subgroups have to you know, you have to have 93% of your subgroups participation. You take a white school district North groups like we deal in Lansing, you know, it's white and maybe three other people that might be Native American Latino or African-American or are mixed right? So it's pretty easy to get 93% of those kids participating on state exams or as an urban School District. It's much more difficult to get 93% Whatever it is in the nine the purpose of paint in all these requirements. Otherwise your school is failing and you know when you were able to school family who wants to put their kids there, right? Yeah. I know there are a lot of kids that, you know even graduated from Everett who

16:11 Have kids now or starting, you know Adams Elementary, you know kids now or starting to have kids who very bluntly will say that they're not sending their kids to Lansing schools because they're awful and I think you know, I don't think I tell him in what is it?

16:31 About the school that was so bad that you think will not be in an issue for your children somewhere else like, you know, you know doctors, you know lawyers, you know Engineers, you know all the same type seeing all the kids that we went to school with with these things that go into in all these are there more apple and schools. There's kids are going to do the same thing, right?

16:59 I think that I had a lot of opportunities given to me because of every high school because of the diversity in the huge range of people that you know, I saw on a day-to-day basis that help me deal with people and help me live with and work with people on a hole with in my economic range and outside of it. And I think those are those kind of things are lessons that you will not learn and you know on Okemos Road example or Grand Ledge

17:35 So yeah, I think I think those I think those other those non-education factors play a huge role in what I've actually gotten out of going to Lansing school apartments for people all the time. I've always said to my students. I think that they'd Lansing kids have more advantages of going into the real world than people from were homo genius School populations because of the diversity Factor, it gives you an edge up in the job market because you do know how to interact and have relationships with other people who are different than right. I mean that's a crucial thing to really kind of stop pause and appreciate and reflect on and and I would put Lansing, you know, the table lamps and kids. I put up against the top East Lansing or you know, Farmington Hills kids or whatever wherever there.

18:35 And you know, the diversity experience to me would be something at want to chat off as yeah, that that's an employee that's going to be more valuable as the real world and economy is global. Right? So it you know, it kind of gets to this point. We're looking at all this tension in this country with each other in the sky above us vs them things going on. And you know, how do we improve relationships with each other?

19:05 Coming from different racial backgrounds. You know, I like to say we're all part of the human race and you not talk about this in all we use race to describe.

19:18 You know, but ultimately were in One race human time. And how do we how do we get towards a shared Humanity? You know that way.

19:30 You know, how do we improve relationship with each other when you look at history and history shows and sometimes the rug is pulled out from under you quite off and look at Native American history of a broken treaties that happens tonight and dangling the carrot to African Americans after the Civil War and reconstruction the rug out from under people. So, you know to me how do we improve a relationship with each other? It has got to come down to being able to to have trust we have to have to be able to trust each other as human beings to build relationship. And is that possible in the current climate that's going on in this country are people.

20:21 Trying to build relationship with each other because of black lives matter movement is not just black people involved in that movement. That's what's very interesting about. This is about it. It's a lot of white people that are taking up that that mantle I think that you're right that there needs to be a lot of truck built and

20:46 Lot of Trustees V belts in order to build strong relationships long-term relationships, unfortunately.

20:55 Why people in this country have

21:00 Broken that trust time and time and time again. I just said so there's going to need to be a huge major effort on behalf. I think about half of white Americans in this country to really make it, right.

21:17 Is why I say I just to make it right to build that trust to make people feel at ease. I think like you said too many times as the Caribbean brought out only to actually be a stick right too many times have a treaty been put in a place only for it to be yanked out from under you I think there needs to be a lot of

21:40 Maturing in NFL with white Americans

21:49 In regards to what people mean when they say, you know, having privilege or you know not being so defensive and so quick to anger. You know, when that one that phrase gets brought up or when people say that when people try to bring up things that are racist to not be so defensive and not be so blind to them. I think that an individual need on an individual level needs to just happen more people need to be much more open and much more empathetic to those those causes and less defensive said the whole issue of trust in us being able to have an open discussion and dialogue.

22:37 Realizing that each person coming to the table. Hopefully if we have trust we have to assume that people have good intentions write in order to build trust and I think that's what an interesting place to start as soon people when they start trying to talk about. This was their intention is good. And obviously there's always a chance that people's intentions or dishonorable a lack moral in. Oh goodness some like that. But you know, it makes me think about a quote from Cornell lasted into things. I was reading in his book Race Matters and you know looking at how liberals and conservatives deal with it the issue of racism in

23:23 History word in all last is arguing the Liberals have always seen it more as like in a come up with a government program to to solve this problem and conservatives looking more at well, you know take some personal responsibility and pull yourself up by your own bootstraps. And really what what I wanted to share. Is that what I like about what West was saying, he's identifying that the way liberals and conservatives political Spears looking at the issue race, is it they're looking at black people as a as people. I have it written down like people with a problem right? We're like you says,

24:05 The common denominator view of race between liberals and conservatives as they each see black people as problem people rather than fellow American citizens with problems, right? I think it's a really profound a good point because if you're not looking at somebody as a fellow citizen, you're not on equal footing each other right where all Americans are supposed to be right? Eat Pluribus Unum out of many one. Where is that right now and West also said as long as black people are viewed as a quote them.

24:42 West said that the burden falls on blacks to do all the cultural and moral work necessary for healthy race relations write an implication. Is that only certain Americans that can Define what it means to be an American and the rest just have to fit in right to me just blew my mind. You know, I'm like it took me awhile to just died a few paragraphs in that book and it's right in the introduction and you know who gets to decide what an American is right? Cuz that that's a whole part of its going on in this country right now with attention immigration policy in it in this offers is now who gets to decide what an American. Yeah, that's a good question. I

25:31 We'll probably be thinking about that for a little while. But the I mean, I think the issue is.

25:38 Who is deciding that right now? And the majority is deciding that right now and

25:46 It comes down to a lot of mostly white people are people even like having political social and economic factors in their mind about going on living their daily paper people just so caught up in the material gain of living in this country to get a head, but they don't let that they lack some of the complexity to to go down that road. And yes, I think I think when we look at the American people as a whole the reason why

26:23 We can get a lot of people will say that race issues are economic issues. Right or like an economic a race issue isn't always necessarily race issue. It can be an economic issue.

26:36 I would say that poor people in America. The American dream is is one where you can get rich to write the streets are paved with gold and all the stuff you can make it. You can be the billionaire. You can be anything that you want to be. All you had to do is work hard. That's what that's the goal. Right just one that's at historic Protestant work ethic rise back to AP US History and that whole thing of the people coming the Puritans coming out of New England, right? And so

27:13 But when we look at that, you know that we'd sew-in in because of that we look at people who are poor or downtrodden as well. You're just lazy.

27:25 Right, you wouldn't be in this position if you weren't so lazy. You wouldn't be in this position if you tried harder, this is your fault. So we really turn a lot of stop to victim blame. You know, I saw a tweet the where a guy was like, you know, this is, you know, during the pandemic himself, obviously the Panic of 2024 future listeners.

27:54 Where he says, you know, I'm working every day as an Amazon shipper for $11 an hour and they're people sitting at home on their butts making $600 a week and someone responded to him. They say you are blaming someone you were working for the richest man in the world and he's paying you your being underpaid by this man that you're blaming the guy at home without I've been laid off or furloughed who's making this money so that he can feed their family. Right? And that's kind of where we are. I feel like in America as a whole and that's kind of what we do when we look at especially like African Americans or minorities in this country is we tend to put them in this bucket of your only in this position because you didn't work on your only in this position because you're lazy you only in this position because you know,

28:49 You didn't make the right choices instead of looking it up at it. As you know, how much more complex and larger issue. I think that's kind of.

29:00 That impacts the relationship that people have interracially and how many people actually try to get to know of people in those circumstances, right? It's so much is based on stereotyping right? And it plays well intermedia, it sells things. You know, I keep thinking about the whole thing of how do you how do you get people to respect one another trust one another feel that people have honorable intentions? And then you have things that reinforce stereotypes of like what you're talking about and you know, social media has not helped that television certainly has never helped that I mean, I have to keep thinking of Jerry Springer and The Steve Wilkos Show and those two shows to me are absolutely awful television awful for this country and it is the profit the network.

30:00 And the individuals involved in their whole stick is reinforcing stereotypes of poor people in minorities right now, and then I start to see some of those stereotypes. Unfortunately with how people talk to each other inside every high school and how to handle a disagreement with each other. You know, it's like they're trying out for the Jerry Springer Show on what's the Jerry Springer Show doing reinforcing some really negative cultural stereotypes of people and it's a

30:39 It's very frustrating to watch you know, and it dumbs down our culture. It keeps us distracted.

30:47 And you know, if you look at it through history where you know minorities and immigrants have been brought in in all to try to 2.

30:58 Go up the ladder of opportunity in this country. Sometimes they've been they've been used right like okay someone's out on strikes. So, you know, we're going to bring you in the back door while all these other people are out here in the front or picketing you're going to come in and be strikebreakers and instead of being mad at the management and the owner of the company you're mad at people who are taking new job works. The Mexicans were taking your job versus directing that anger and organizing it at the people who orchestrated that bad play for their own benefit. And you know, well that loves to figure out ways to keep us distracted and racism does a great job keeping us focused on being pissed off at each other versus figuring out. Okay, how can we lift all boats up in this country maintain the core democratic values of freedom.

31:58 Quality opportunity pursuit of happiness

32:02 But you know, good has to involve all of them. And I don't think we're at a point in our history at this moment in 2020 where the common good is something that people are valuing like they used to know. I think I think you're totally right eye. When I look at the American people today wouldn't you know using the same analogy, you know all lifts all boats. I think most people are concerned with my boat, right? Like what's my boat doing? Let me lift my bow we can see what the masks and I feel like honestly it become such an individual.

32:49 Like I'm such a toxic individuality to say I care more about myself in this moment that I do about the whole I'm not willing to wear masks in a store. I'm not willing to you no cancel my summer plans or whatever to help reduce the amount of spread of this virus looks like but I think that translates economically and I think that translates

33:19 Filipina like what you're saying about the picketers? I'm mad at you because you stole my job. And that's as far as it is as far as going to go doesn't go any further than that Mimi Mimi Mimi. We're very individualistic and very me focused and this country and because of that a lot of social programs get caught a lot of funding for public education after-school programs, you know, childcare those kind of things that get caught because people who will never be millionaire. So we'll never be the Bill Gates's are Steve Jeff Bezos of the world don't want to pay a little bit more taxes and and because they believe that one day they could be those people don't want the rich people.

34:10 And I think that's got to your point about the media and everything. I think that's all that stuff kind of plays its role and keeping us separated keeping us.

34:22 Differentiated from each other and keeping those differences. How do we maintain good relationships to improve relations with each other? Why do we want to improve relationships of each other right and do other show us a path for improving relationship in a West is talking about internet book? He says we have to see the basic humanist and American Miss of each other and it's hard to do in today's current political climate when were in the separate tribes of liberal Conservative Republican Democrat, you know, accusing progressives of being socialist accusing people were conservatives to be Nazis in all those are all stereotypes to and they all serve their own masters, you know, so this this mentality that's going on it is causing division.

35:22 It's breaking relationships as well as breaking the nation apart and you know our national motto, right? It's a little bit, probably mispronouncing the lamp butchering it but we know that it means out of many one right supposed to be one country was hard to be one country of Americans if we can't build relationship with each other. So where Where Do We Go From Here Right in August of 2020 during a national endemic. How do we build relationship with each other? And how do we maintain quality relationships with each other and it involved, you know, we have to be willing to take a risk to to get to know people were different than us.

36:14 Right, I think.

36:17 I will say I think I had a very long conversation about the protests and you know the drill the hole George Floyd incident everything with the murder of George flood.

36:33 And with a white lady who have known for a very very long time and took it as a moment. I generally don't like to have these conversations I do when I don't but she's kind of on the other side of the fence or husbands of police officer and Captain do very little wrong in her eyes. And as we were talking about this stuff on and on and on and I tried to explain to her like why the protesters were so upset. Why is a black man in America? Like I don't always feel safe all the time and got it and at the end of the conversation she goes. Thanks for listening to URL.

37:12 Weather like how how are you? How is that? How is this? You know, what time for you to vent? You should be listening to me. You should be trying to understand like what we go through in this country and I feel like a lot that again and I don't want to like sound like I'm blaming white people for everything you guys have done a lot.

37:40 I guess I'm being up to the minorities in this country. That's who needs to be doing listening at this point.

37:49 Minorities have done so much listening and we've been the ones with had to fit in. We've been the square peg in a round hole for a very very very long for the entirety of the u.s. History.

38:07 At this and it hasn't worked. It doesn't work for us.

38:11 In order to move forward the people who need to be listening are the people who have not been listening historically why people are listening and becoming more empathetic and becoming more understanding I think and that is when we can move forward unless it turns out to a point where you know,

38:36 Black people and other minority groups can rise up financially and economically and we no longer need the influence of you know, the white Americans were in power. Do we use kind of create our own, you know spaces without the fear of people coming in I guess and then taking over but then you're still going to have those tribes. You're still going to have those issues with relationships. So I don't know if that's the best thing. I think you're right that people need to be listening. Right and it if there were time for white American and American General to take a moment causing stepping back reflecting and hearing others. It's definitely know right and you know,

39:28 How do you get people to to consider another point of view when they're so wrapped up in dog? Right that being dogmatic in your thinking? What can you do with somebody is dogmatic right there people that you know, I've always said I don't do crazy and other people you run into in life that are crazy and I've always said I'm sorry, I can't do crazy because crazy isn't going to listen and unreason. Right and that part of it, you know white supremacy is wrapped in a dogmatic, you know blanket and the systems that are in place that try to lift people up or, we under attack by other people with different thinking

40:20 In all end, if we don't have those dialogues in and take the risk to talk about these things and in accepting some responsibility for our for history and trying to make amends world would she know there are points in time where we try to do this. But again, it's like two steps forward and one back and it's some point, you know, I'm sure it's gotten the old long ago before now, you know, the two steps forward one step back thing is is old and all and in all Martin Luther King had a book.

40:54 Call Where Do We Go From Here always wanted to read it. Pretty sure you wrote it in the 60s late 60s, obviously before he died in all but a lot of people never look at King pass 1963 in the I Have a Dream momently King is trying to deal with these deeper issues of classism poverty, Urban racism and

41:18 You know, it's a it's complicated.

41:23 But it's not on hopeful. There's hole and minute. We lose hope and trying to find a way forward that's going to be a bad time. I think there are people that are in that mindset. I think there are people who are hopeless and become homeless, you're open to thinking that sometimes can push you on two different push you over the edge, you know, you see that around you see that around the world.

41:59 Brett settle and I think that we are in a place in this country where people are getting hopeless like to your point. And I think that's what's you know, pushing things to the to the point that they are right now right with the man with the craziness is going on in Seattle.

42:23 All of the defending the police things, you know that's going on right now. These movements are being pushed by people who do not see any hope. They don't have any hope and they don't have any trust in the the current body right that exist and they're ready to burn it all down and start all over and I think that in order to if the people in power want to maintain the system that they have right now than they need to make some real significant changes quickly because the as this goes on people are going to get this more we look at instances are we look at it events like apartheid ending in South Africa?

43:08 I mean they had a very bloody exchange right like the rap that a lot. But once it was done, they didn't go through a super long. Of time a hundred plus years, you know pulling down statues and renaming buildings and taken these awful people off their money and they did it like right now they just did it and that is something that has been a long time coming in this country I think and

43:38 I think it's time. It's it's time for that stuff to happen because you don't want to like you said you don't want to push people to that stage of hopelessness because only bad things happens there right let that you know, kind of wrap up our discussion kind of brings us to this point where we're in a moment of time. There's some hopeful signs that we could be. I think we are at turning point, right? And so the last turning points in history that were at and I'll cause and effect and then cause and effect. We're at a point like that right now how will this turnout in 20 years? Hopefully, I'll be around a 20 years to see how it turns around. And now I'm hoping that we're going to go in in a Direction that's beneficial to people versus one that further divides us.

44:34 Fingers crossed that it all ends. Well as well as well. So I've enjoyed this discussion with you Mario. I appreciate the fact that you want to have it. It's a complicated discussion. It's one worth having I wish more people would you know embrace the possibilities of talks like this. It's made me want to go in and look at some of my books in my bookcase and I thank you for that and I am thankful that I had you as a student and I am humbled that you are touched by my teaching.

45:14 Yeah, I know. I am I talk about you all the time to my friends to teachers to you. No answer the household and family about how he your class really put things in a different perspective for me.

45:33 And showed me a different side of of American history that I did not know really existed and made things a different made things a priority that hadn't been before so I encouraged my sisters and take your class. I encourage my friends to take your class.

45:53 So yeah, I was when I when my mom brought this up to my attention, you know, the whole story car thing. You were pretty much the only person that I thought of that have this conversation with so I appreciate you taking the time to have it and it's been I hope we can continue having this conversation cuz it's too deep to be done in 1 minute 30 minute segments of storycorps history in American history is very interesting and I really hope that people come to that conclusion.

46:33 We can only hope that they learn from Italy.