Marisa Pavan and Terrah Pavan

00:04 My name is Marisa Pavan. I'm 41 years, old. Today, is Saturday, April 10th 2021. I'm in Little Rock, Arkansas.

00:17 The person I'll be having a conversation with today is my wife, Tara Pavilion.

00:26 I am Tara Pavilion. I'm 35. Today is Saturday, April 10th, 2021. We are in Little Rock Arkansas. I'm going to be talking to Marissa today. We have been married for almost 10 years.

00:47 What date did we make July 1st, 10:10, and then

01:00 25th 2011. We were married or married to the New Hampshire tax Arkansas in a long list of other places that we stopped on the way, but we came home.

01:20 And,

01:22 I don't know, started talking about having a family I guess. Yeah.

01:27 Pretty early on we we knew we wanted to have at least one child. So I think we're pretty set on one because we thought we could do more things if we had one concept.

01:49 But anyway, I talked to her answer to it.

01:59 For a little bit to try to figure out how we went to you know, how we go about getting pregnant and we had some good friends that had gone through long Journeys and short Journeys Journeys about you know, how to do it and they gave us a lot of really good advice and we made our first appointment.

02:24 Yeah, it was May 8th 2014.

02:28 It was interesting. I mean, like I said, we're in Arkansas, so

02:34 And we're in the probably, the most liberal part of the state and Little Rock. And the doctor was, I would say pretty cool. I mean, he had others in his practice or maybe not as accepting but we had had lots of people that went to the clinic and had good outcomes and they were like yellow treatment, but it was it was it was really good. Yeah, I mean doctor doctor, Bakr is so amazing. Great.

03:21 Doctor Surgeon.

03:26 We tried three times to get pregnant on the third time.

03:34 And what actually found out that we are pregnant while we were watching a football game which is kind of unusual, super big fans by fans sporting but somebody had invited us over until we're like, okay? And then like just kind of on our way. I'm way I'll do it. Will leave it in the bathroom will check it out time. We didn't make it to have time and it was a really, really early positive. I think it was only 10 days post-op insemination. So we got to feel very excited for a very long time.

04:20 But then you are super sexy, but then you got so bad.

04:33 Is miserable and at that. I think.

04:38 Confirm that. We were only going to have one child, one stops when we're driving to. Yeah, so then you're pregnant. You did get better.

05:01 On 51515 May 15th, 2015.

05:08 It's perfect. Yeah, she's pretty, she's pretty great. But she's, she's a handful. She's super smart and she's almost smarter than I said things that we have a really, really good at it. Valid Asian. She she validates, you know, our choice to be parents everyday, I think so. I think I'm people tell us that I don't need people to tell us that we do a good job, but it is really nice to hear that. She's really well-behaved and smart and can socialize with pretty much anybody, especially adults.

05:59 Anyway, we had her on May 15th. And then we had this crazy idea that we were going to drive for a month to New Mexico. Just stay in Tara's mother's, fifth wheel, camper. Guess my parents were out there on the job, close to Carlsbad Cavern and we drove out there and we stayed in a camper for two weeks for 2 weeks. For adults, one baby and three dogs. And it was, I don't know what, but it wasn't that bad. Wasn't she was. So we had a really good time and I may we think we learned really quickly that

06:43 You can take, like, it doesn't have to stop you to have a kid. Like, I feel like sometimes you lose sight of friends who have kids, because they like lock themselves anywhere. But, I mean, she was strapped to you five days, four days out, and we're let's go, go under, there's a farmers market. Let's go see what. I see people that comes out of your lighter. So we have been on the go and she has been very active and I think I think that's why she can pretty much jump into any situation. And yeah, I think she's adapted. Well, she's super social.

07:36 He's going to do something. She is not sure what she is. I'm just not sure that it'll be here in Arkansas.

07:45 Oh, we came back after that.

07:50 And it was about a month later. Yeah, it was June 26th 2015. I think so. She was like a month in little over named. Yeah, and you were on your way somewhere and it was a Friday afternoon. And I remember turning on the news and they had just

08:12 The Supreme Court had just ruled for same-sex marriage in Elberfeld and I was like, I called you when I got to be under all the things I said and I would Encompass has the whole range of was it that constellation of Rights constellation of rights under marriage, so I turned around and I came back and we went to the vital records.

08:46 Which would have been was in hindsight. The first of?

08:51 Four, five, six trips there. They were like an hour afterward. They probably did not watch the news as they were working know and have no idea what was happening. And so when I showed up it was and I know we can do that. Yeah, we have a Fishel was like, we have to wait for an official ruling and has to be blah blah blah before we can change any documents.

09:27 It was a long cuz like I will come back tomorrow and no is the next day that I met Johna, Johna Johna, Jacobs and Jacobs. And then the other people that were in our lawsuit eventual lawsuit and they were trying to do the same thing. Their baby had been born two weeks after Tucker. Yeah, super little

10:06 They had been married in Iowa before us and so, you know, they thought the same thing.

10:15 That felt good. Cuz I was like, why? No one else is down here. Maybe this isn't it? Like something I can get done. And then when I saw them, they were like, yeah, this should be done. And I think the next day when I went back is when we met Cheryl the lawyer, some people that heard that we were up there trying to get it done and

10:37 I'm through the grapevine. She found us and said. Well, let's go have coffee. Talk about, you know what we need to do next and she was already.

10:53 Older and frail, she has health issues and Stuff vocal about.

11:08 Rights also surprised lesbian, right? And she would do a lot of stuff, you know, for free.

11:19 And I think she had already been involved in a marriage suit that was in Arkansas. That was going up.

11:28 To the circuits through the circuit courts, but overfill think made it burst into the Supreme Court ruled or whatever on.

11:44 But we had coffee and was great. And so, the other person in the lawsuit didn't want to be named as the primary plaintiff, because she worked for the state.

11:58 And she had said, not she did not see her boss. I was not ready. I had a newborn and all of a sudden.

12:17 We're here and I don't know any much about anyting.

12:24 You know, I've never been on TV before so yes, I want to make things better for other people. I want to make this accessible for others or they don't have to experience these things and I don't necessarily want.

12:43 To be that person and I'm glad. It's

12:53 Smaller.

12:55 So we're only pretty much known by like law student 6 to study cases and stuff, you know, when it was still fresh, but now that it's kind of faded out, you know, and also there was a movie star in the 50s with my exact name and spelling. So if you Google that you don't really find me have to be super specific on the other hand. I think it was like do we want this to be?

13:48 I really want her to be this. Well-known, do want to use her name, you know, it in the court filings and stuff. They don't use, they just a minor things like that. Initials things like that.

14:01 The, with the media, a lot of times, it's there.

14:07 I don't know how she'll feel about it. I don't know but I mean she doesn't really know anything about it right now, but we talked a lot about that that day and how we're going to proceed from there with the lawsuit. And so I was, you know, the username for Van versus Smith. Yes. And

14:29 Yeah, cuz we had to say that the head of the Arkansas vital records department and then a fairly liberal area have a very, very red state of, Arkansas.

14:56 Looks like we'll oasis's in the middle.

15:01 But this, this the circuit like the circuit judges in here like in Little Rock ruled in our favor, and it was actually at that time three of us.

15:13 And he ruled that all three of us could go get our birth certificates amended, but it was it was still November. Yeah, it was late of longer December.

15:25 So, five or six months later, ever since I don't remember that exact date. Everything kind of started getting blurry cuz it was, it was like a lot of hurry up and wait, but it's all kind of a blur. And I'm not sure if it's just because it was such.

15:41 You know of intense I'm or if pregnancy brain just took that from me other things, going on to write in a baby baby board, and I think that's a lot of it. I mean, that another pisses off. Yeah, we were too cuz it was like we wanted to just go up there and get it done and enjoy being parenting. Parents do not have to do all this other crap.

16:18 I was just tired of that point yet. So then it became a fine. Yay. Thank you for what you've done for us and these other two families. However, we have time, new people who were starting the fertility process and that we're currently pregnant and due soon and we didn't want anybody else to feel that. We had people that we knew who had children that were older. Yes. I tried to go get there even though I mean

16:54 Were they I'm trying to think if they were legally adopted. Yeah, because that was the only option given rights to have any sort of parental rights, right. I mean basic decisions to be in the doctor's office with her. Yeah. Yeah.

17:18 Bus. Take you had no right. You had no rights to her, even though we were married and he was conceived in our marriage in the combine's of marriage, you know, and I said that says that when a woman has another baby that the husband will be put on this assumes paternal. Yeah, even if unless that you have to do like a half a David, the other weird stuff if everybody knows that it's somebody else's. Yeah. I don't know. It's just they never changed it and they needed to. And that's, I think a lot of the things they tried to the Arkansas legislature at that point. I'm after the judge the

18:12 Search like the city judge and Circuit Judge on a trolls on it. And then the Arkansas Supreme Court put up stay over. So nobody could do nothing happens. Everything just stays where it is. Nobody moves forward. Yeah, we have two here. And so we started getting ready.

18:34 Are all to argue in front of Arkansas, Supreme Court.

18:39 Wish I never.

18:41 Seen or been. And obviously I mean, why would I even know what that building really was next to the state house? Yeah, it was odd. It was very

18:58 Ornamental, I guess you would say it's like, you know, this is the kind of place where the walls are covered in red velvet. Everything's very I'm not sure that's accurate but that's definitely how it felt. You did very ornate. Yeah, but not like Dottie know. Anyway, sorry, it wasn't sure but I think that that is part of the reason you don't want to go there. I mean, there's a lot of people and black and white and all of these rethink these things that you probably shouldn't be touching, you know, it's part of it and it is sufficient that where

19:46 And then so are a lawyer argued our side.

19:50 And then arguing for the State Attorney General's office had to argue that part which is the time a really good friend of mine.

20:02 Has a really good friend. I like him a lot and I know him.

20:08 He's one of the best people, I think, I know he works for the Attorney General's office and bless his heart. He had argue against us for the state as he's wearing rainbow socks. And he makes rainbow candles and goes to every Pride event and is just very it takes. His whole family is life is to kids. The main Berry out and about like, ye and poor guys having to argue against us. And, you know, he comes over and speaks to us and he's like, hey, I'm sorry. I can't speak today and I know Papa and I was like what's good seeing, you know, very, very professional and so they argue their part and I don't really remember when the Judgment was issued but it was it was a while. It's a lot of like we talked about it and then they go and think about it for a long time. And then all of a sudden,

21:08 World against us. And so,

21:13 Larry sight. And at that time, we were still advised to go ahead with a second-parent adoption to ensure that you had.

21:24 Rights to her. Then could do all of those things. Do you remember that folder that we had before?

21:33 We had all of those papers that we did before we went to the hospital, but we had to have notarized and signed. Oh, yeah, case, something happened to me.

21:44 Yeah, we had some friends that advised us to maybe have a notary like you Slugterra something immediately after birth, you know, I sign up to get to notarize other people that may have. I mean, it's not super legally binding, but at least it shows what intent was to happen to me during labor or whatever. I wanted her to be. I wanted you to be able to make decisions for me, for me and Tucker.

22:24 And I was crazy. I don't know. We don't care anymore. Thank goodness, but we hung around and waited. I don't really remember a lot between

22:39 Like,

22:41 When it went to the Supreme Court, the really the first time, I remember cuz you have to put, you know, they have to appeal it and all this.

22:50 And then you have to wait to see if they're even going to take it up. You know, it's an option. You have to even hear it. Yeah, and so, you know that was a lot of time waiting and then they're going to hear it and then we get contacted from the lesbian center for human rights or lesbian.

23:14 Lesbian love.

23:20 I can't do that. I don't remember there in San Francisco. They're really great and they had already argued, I think, in oberfell case or help in some way with that. And so they, they found us again. And people are like, how did you bubba? But I'm like when it's stuff like that, like they find you.

23:56 After you know, during that time people were we're interested in. Even now we still get messages from people. We don't know like hey, what what do we need to do? How do we progressed with our whatever, you know?

24:13 And it was that way. I don't miss it happens. Much now, because

24:19 I thought, I think, but not as much with all these crazy States passing social issue laws. It's, I mean, even in Arkansas recently, it's just, you know, transphobia laws and medical stuff.

24:39 Is aggravating and it's like you want to stay here cuz you want to see change and where you like, you know, I like four letter. I mean, it's not, it's pretty.

24:50 You know, a little warm in the summer, but it's, it's home. This is where we're from.

24:59 And I mean everybody around us. So we have our our community and you is very accepting of everything. Everybody everything. So that's good. But I think we find ourselves in a bubble a lot. And don't realize that there's a lot of hateful people. I don't see hate. I see people asking inappropriate questions, but they don't understand that they're inappropriate. So yeah.

25:33 I guess we should talk about back on to the yeah, let's go back to the Supreme Court.

25:41 They ended up not hearing or arguments, which was kind of cool and not cool. I'll kind of wanted to go. We wanted me to see how good are teasing. One supreme Arkansas Supreme Court are favored over and turned over overturns Arkansas, Supreme Court ruling and said, yeah, we already and it covers all this other stuff.

26:20 When I go talk about it again, and we are earlier before we started talking here. We were discussing that if that case came up. Now. I don't know what if I don't know what the ruling would be because it was still, an Kennedy still very, very different crowd of cleaning. Yes.

26:57 And the BOS interesting God that we don't have to find out.

27:05 All right. I'm really glad we don't have to find out. No doubt. It's a it's one of the saying somebody asked this recently. Like what was it like and I was like, I'm glad that we did it but I don't know. I mean, I would do it again in a heartbeat. Yeah, it's not the most fun and I'm glad it didn't get as big as like over Fells or anything like that because

27:28 Like you said this morning you were like, what? There's an ABC like a national ABC article about it off like yeah. I did not need that kind of ready for it. But I did get a lot of interesting calls and interviews from lots of different, you know, new sources. Yeah, that's a double-edged sword. That

27:55 You really have to think about when you do things like that. Take up cases like that because

28:03 It's scary. And I'm glad like I said that I'm not easily as findable or people didn't seek us out to be mean to us purposefully. Yeah, and he definitely did. Not read the comments on the local news. Unless you just don't do it. Why doesn't he brought up the point earlier? Why is it even

28:34 Like somebody else's. I think that's the part that I can't get my head around because like our daughter.

28:47 I have an anonymous sperm donor and closed at like she can never find out. Yeah, like he doesn't want that. That's fine. That's what we wanted. So we chose we will pay the consequences.

29:10 Yeah, man, whoever you want to put on the birth certificate is like, you know, cuz no one else is going to fill that spot and I think that's what I didn't really understand. Yeah, it's like why I leave it blank? When somebody standing there waving their hands saying, Hey, I want to be that other person that helps you or helps raise this child. No matter. I mean, because opposite-sex relationships. That is just presumed.

29:38 I mean.

29:41 At the time we you know, we wanted we wanted the same rights as everyone else. And I mean we did all the things in order, you know, so yeah the fact that wasn't extended to us was

29:59 Very frustrating. How did you feel like your

30:04 Family handles all of it. I don't know. I don't I don't think that it was an acknowledgement that it was happened. But something we weren't really going to discuss it any link. Yeah. It's going to have my family is in my family's I think more

30:21 Liberal than yours. At least a little more open-minded. I'm sure my dad was like, her last name is forever, but I think you got here.

30:42 But,

30:44 It's just weird that it even had to happen. And I think that now that

30:54 I don't know. I've gone through all of this and staying home and teaching her from home. And I think we just had a lot of time since we've been home for over a year now, you know.

31:14 Which is a story for another day and I think that we were so caught up and just living our lives and trying to enjoy it. And then there's just going to be sparse moments of, you know, where the Supreme Court or I felt like we were very much like surrounded by. We've been very fortunate to be surrounded by very supportive. Now.

31:47 They were very like everybody was always, you know, I mean people that we didn't even know what show I think by the second day of me showing up at the health department Lake people were coming to sit with you.

32:09 No. Ready to give us those birth certificates.

32:14 But I don't know.

32:17 I enjoy the fact that we have as crazy as some of that.

32:24 TV interviews. Where

32:26 I had an interview in the middle of all of it and the guy asked me if she could come to our house and I was like, yeah and I had gotten off work, a little early. So I came home and she was taking a nap and so was Tucker. And then all of a sudden I thought I was going to do the interview by myself. And then that was going to be super sleepy.

32:53 We have a kid who's just woken up needs to eat in the kitchen.

33:01 She's not happy. Happy, not the most joyous interview, but

33:08 And I like the fact that Tucker will always probably have that because I doubt that the new station 11 like yeah.

33:18 Archived somewhere. And that's kind of why? I think I wanted to do this.

33:25 Interview, or this conversation with you? Cuz it's some point. I mean, maybe she would want to listen to it again and say

33:34 Or somebody said later be like what were they thinking?

33:44 I think that we forgotten a lot of the hard Parts cuz as humans, I think that we just yeah, cuz if we remembered all the crappy shit. Well Dad and I think the final results in the

34:04 You know, of the end.

34:06 The outcome, you know, it makes it worth it just like, throwing up for 26 weeks and you feel all the feelings that come along with it. But, you know, there's a magical part of our brains to just kind of let us forget it now.

34:28 Ord.

34:30 Yeah.

34:33 I do it again.

34:36 Yeah.

34:37 Treasure chest with you.

34:41 I want one day. This was anybody else. You don't have to thank God.

34:49 Well, mark your calendars cuz

34:53 Yucca root of anime.

34:56 Sunday.

34:58 Be a household name. Yeah, it's possible. I mean, in, in hindsight, if it had gotten bigger, that would have been terrible for the little ball of personality and wants to be the center of attention or that she is. Yes. That's true.

35:19 Should have just like yes, the cameras here.

35:30 Anyway, we need to go get her.