Mark Alvarado and Rus Bradburd

[00:02] MARK ALVARADO: My name is Mark Alvarado. I'm 59 years old. Today's date is February 8, 2023. I'm in El Paso, Texas, and my interview partner this afternoon is Mister Russ Bradburd My relationship with him is through the basketball and El Barrio camp.

[00:22] RUSS BRADBURD: And I'm Russ Bradburd I'm 63 years old. Today's February 8, 2023, here in El Paso, Texas. I'm here talking to Mark Alvarado, and we both work at basketball in the barrio together. Mark, I guess about ten years ago, the great poet Bobby Bird, who I think we'll probably talk about a lot today, Bobby Bird had suggested to me, hey, you've got to get this Mark Alvarado guy to basketball in the barrio. He would be great. And he told me a little bit about you. And so I dropped the ball or kicked it off my foot or something, and then Covid happened, and we were doing the camp online for a year or two, but it was Bobby Bird who introduced us, and I just wanted to maybe I thought we'd start by talking about Bobby Bird and first how you met Bobby Bird, and if you remember him talking about basketball in the barrio.

[01:12] MARK ALVARADO: Well, not necessarily in the beginning. I met Bobby back in 1994 when I came to El Paso from Santa Barbara, California. I enrolled into UTEP, and I started playing music, put together a group called Border Roots. And we got to play at a place called the Bridge for contemporary arts. And Bobby was, I think, on the board of that group. And we played a fundraiser, and Bobby was just always hanging around. And so anytime we did gigs or he was able to come, he always came around. And then I met his daughter Susie and the rest of the family, and so just associated with Bobby through the music and then obviously through his book publications. I followed him that way. And, you know, we were just kind of just always cool with each other, you know, Bobby was always kind of just cool. You know, he was always just giving me the head nods up and down, like, yeah, you go, brother, just keep on doing your thing. So it was like that.

[02:13] RUSS BRADBURD: Yeah, I met Bobby, I guess, in maybe 1989. And, you know, as you know, Bobby was donating or selling us at cost the books for basketball and the barrio for many years. And every kid, you know, we have 100 campers, and every kid gets a book. And it was through the great deal. He was the publisher, besides being a great poet, I think he was a poet first and foremost, but he was also the publisher of Cinco Punto's press, the great. They did a lot of children's books and bilingual stuff, as you know. I think I met Bobby maybe in 1989. I'd gone to. I'd been living in El Paso, and I liked El Paso a lot. And, you know, as a Chicago guy, I remember, you know, the mountains were great and the food was great, and the mexican food was great, and the cost of living was incredible. It just seemed like a great place. But I had a little trouble. You know, when you're involved just in college basketball, you're meeting the car dealers and the bankers. And I had a little bit of trouble meeting the artistic people in town. I wasn't sure where to go for that. And one time I happened to see in the newspapers, there was a poetry reading. So I went to see Bobby Bird read poetry, and I loved it, and I went and I bought a book afterwards. But everybody there seemed to know everybody except me. And I think it was a very early bridge event. This would have been maybe. Maybe in. Might have been 1989, something like that, and. Or 88, something like that. And, yeah, I guess it was 1988. And so I was sort of. I didn't speak to him or even meet him, but about a year later, after a basketball game, do you remember the old Kern place Tavern, right near the university? It's closed now, but I was squeezing by. I was squeezing through people in a crowd after a game. Of course, we won. We always seemed to win the home games. And he said, nice game, coach. And I said, you're the guy who wrote that poem, basketball is a holy way to grow old. And that was sort of how we became friends. But I wonder if you. And do you remember how you met Rocky Galarso?

[04:16] MARK ALVARADO: No. Rocky was more of a situation because he would have little Mike play at his club. And so me being a musician and kind of being kind of a street urchin out there looking to see where I can, you know, put together, you know, a good night of fun and whatnot. Rocky's was a spot with little Mike, and so I went there and I met Rocky. Very kind Mandy just there at the club, working at the club. So that was the extent of it with, my relationship with Rocky was not like you and the boxing and working with the kids. So I think we might need to take a timeout. So, Russ, why don't you tell me a little bit about your relationship with Rocky, because I know that it's a little bit deeper and the foundation, part of the foundation of why the camp has even been started.

[05:10] RUSS BRADBURD: Yeah, I met Rocky in maybe 1984. I was at the Golden Gloves boxing tournament. I was always very interested in boxing, and I'd taken a. I boxed for about a year before I came to El Paso, just for something to do for exercise, you know, self defense stuff. And so I was at the Golden Gloves and got introduced to him by Paul Strelzen, who was the sort of the famous announcer, radio personality, Bowie High School principal. He called me over and introduced me to Rocky. And I started going to Rocky's club just for the exercise, you know. So at the end of the day, after a stressful day of college basketball, it's, you know, a very high pressure job. It was great to go and be. I was. I was. I was probably the oldest one at the gym, even in my early twenties. And I was the only white guy at the gym, of course, and one of the few who spoke English, you know. And so most everything was done in Spanish, but it was a great release for me. And no one would bother you there and say, you know, when are we going to get a seven footer? Or how come we lost on Saturday or that kind of thing. And so I got where. So any day that I was in El Paso for about the next. For the next seven or eight years, if I was in El Paso, I went and exercised, got my workout at Rocky's boxing gym, and I watched him work with the kids. And I thought, you know, if a guy got to be really good, of course he left Rocky and went to La or Las Vegas. So he never made any money from the kids. He just trained the kids because he liked kids and he liked to teach kids. And he was very. He was strict, but he was also. He had a funny manner about him where no matter who you were, no matter if you were a fat kid or skinny kid or. I remember once a guy came in with one arm, girls came in to train, and he treated you like, he called everybody champ except me. He called me Mister Russ. I was not a champ for some reason, but everybody else was champ. And he just made everybody feel special and gave them, I think gave them a purpose. And it really made me rethink why I was coaching in the first place. You know, people know that I worked for Don Haskins and Lou Henson and they were, you know, great hall of fame coaches. But Rocky was just as big an influence because it made me sort of reconsider the whole purpose of what we were doing. And here was a guy who was only coaching kids because he liked kids. He wasn't doing it for the fame or the notoriety or to get his name. You know, he was never on tv. It was just his only. His moment of glory might be the El Paso golden gloves tournament. So when he was killed in 1997, he was a victim of gun violence, but he was killed in his own home. And that's when we. We had been charging $20 for basketball in the barrio. And then in 97, when he was killed, we decided, we're going to dedicate the camp to Rocky, and we're only going to charge a dollar. And pretty soon after that, he got. Right after he was. After he died, he got elected into the or inducted into the El Paso sports Hall of Fame. And then they put a mural up for him at the army. Cause he grew up at the Armijo center. So there's. Now there's a beautiful mural, as you know. Geez, I can't remember the artist's name, but a beautiful mural of rocky working with kids. And there's books in the background and basketball and football, because Rocky was a star in three sports in high school. But did you ever. Did you ever play at Rocky's club? Did you have any games?

[08:23] MARK ALVARADO: No, I never had a chance to play at Rocky's club. But, you know, I was just. You were talking and describing him and describing the relationship. And this is really where I think I. What makes basketball in Elvadio so important, makes El Paso so important is this connection, this intersection of culture and race. Here's this white guy from Chicago who's just kind of looking for a place to work out, and he meets this legend of the neighborhood in Rocky, who's got this music piece going, and he's got this boxing thing going. But at the end of the day, it's about the kids and giving to the kids and giving them an opportunity. And I really feel like that's really the crux of what we're doing and why we do what we do. And so I just think it's beautifully illuminates the relationship, illuminates what we're all about.

[09:17] RUSS BRADBURD: Yeah. And I think the camp is dedicated to Rocky. And in the early. For a long time, from about 97 to 2007, his daughters, he had a couple daughters and a son, and then the daughter's kids, they would come and it was really a great. They would come and work. They were in charge of the kitchen. So instead of, you know, we've sort of fallen into, you know, giving the kids generic corporate pizza now and that kind of thing. It's just easier. But for a long time, they were working the kitchen, so they would make spaghetti and make sandwiches and they were very careful. So it did feel like we've sort of drifted away. We've drifted away from that. It was. We've drifted away from that, but not for any real reason. They were involved in a sort of a family, in sort of a family feeling, and they would even address the campers at the end. So I've always thought, when people ask me, there's sometimes people say, oh, it's so great what you do with kids and you teach them. There's educational stuff and. But I don't feel like. Like to me, it's just a way to remember Rocky. I mean, I can't teach boxing or I certainly couldn't teach it well, and so. And I can't, you know, and I can't do everything, but I can do the, you know, as you know, the camp is mostly dribbling drills for, oh, by the way, red, rocky's boxing gym, it was outside, you know, remember, it was in the courtyard. It wasn't. It wasn't even. There was no roof on the place, so you could go, you know, as you know, El Paso can get pretty hot. It might be 105 in the summer and, you know, at 05:00 in the afternoon, you know, working out till 630, something like that. And, you know, on cement. But there was a full size ring that had a. Wasn't it? I don't know if you call it a canopy, but some sort of COVID over it. And kids would. But nearly all Segundo kids, you know, South El Paso kids and those kids really craved the attention and he made everybody feel special.

[11:03] MARK ALVARADO: Most definitely. Most definitely. You know, also, when you were talking about Rocky and we were talking about Bobby and kind of the legends or the foundation of the camp, I wanted to ask you really quick. You know, you have been instrumental in bringing folks together for the camp and XDev basketball players that you might have recruited and guys you've kept relationships with and talk a little bit about that and how those early relationships that you started have now blossomed into what you're able to do with the camp. And they don't say no to you. It's just like, how did all that.

[11:43] RUSS BRADBURD: Go together before you came? We had other music teachers. I don't know what took us so long to get you there. I'll take the blame for that. But, you know, the camp is. I feel like it's a living, breathing thing where it's not the same every year. Like, I remember one year we brought a guy from. He was at a theater, background from New York, basketball player but he was a theater guy named Gus gauntlet, I think his last name was. And he came, and so suddenly we're doing things with theater, with the kids. And then before, you know, the times before you were there, there might be a harmonica, and then. But you used the melodica instead. And those kinds of shifts in the camp happened all the time. And then, you know, of course, Steve Yellen, who sort of co founded the camp with me, he's completely unpredictable. Somebody's always going to show up and say, well, Steve Yellen told me. And now the camp takes on a different flavor again. But sometimes, you know, I feel like the camp is still evolving and it's still improving. And I'll give an example. Did you ever meet, I don't think you met Chris Burnham. He was an english teacher at New Mexico State for many years, but he's an award winning writing teacher. Well, he was interested in basketball in the barrio, and so I brought him, and I thought, he's not much of a basketball guy. I'll put him at the free throw station. And after, like, three years of him working on the kids, on free throws, I thought, what's the matter with me? Like, this is one of the. He's an award winning writing teacher, and we have education station, and they're doing writing exercises for the kids. Like, that's how dumb a coach I was. Like, it was just, I was playing him out of position, as we would say in the, in the coaching business. Like, he's a guy that ought to be teaching writing skills. So then, okay, that changed. And then for about a decade, he was upstairs doing writing skills. But that happens all the time where I, you know, it takes me a while to come up with, you know, to, like, we had the camp going for about a decade before we realized, you know, what really helped it was so, you know, how can you tell which are your kids? Well, then we came up with the idea of different colored shirts. Like, there's twelve different color shirts and there are twelve different teams, and the orange team just go look for the kids with the orange shirts. So we're always sort of dickering with it. And next year won't be the same either.

[13:48] MARK ALVARADO: No, no. But it's interesting to me, being a former junior college basketball player in California and playing at a high level of competition. And then I come to this camp as the music director, and I have, like, this basketball background that's kind of hidden in this environment. But I'm surrounded by these great college players and guys that you did some very outstanding things. And so it's just, I think it's interesting because Bobby, what he saw, excuse me, I was playing city league here in El Paso, and I was playing with a team called the Coyotes, and they were basketball players, high school players, all star players that loved the game, never had any opportunities to go to college and play and what have you. And so I had posted one of the shirts on Facebook, and Bobby saw it.

[14:39] RUSS BRADBURD: Oh, yeah.

[14:39] MARK ALVARADO: And then Bobby saw, I didn't know you played basketball. Yeah. And he's all, well, basketball in the barrio is perfect for you, then.

[14:46] RUSS BRADBURD: Yes.

[14:46] MARK ALVARADO: You know, and so that's kind of where that connection came in, how I got pulled into that. But I'm just really honored that, you know, to the guys that you can get, the former players that you can get, and to mix them in with the art piece, I think that that's just brilliant because basketball is just the carrot, right?

[15:03] RUSS BRADBURD: Yeah. And in many ways, though, the truth is that, which makes me think of something I want to ask you about. But the truth is that I started doing that just because I thought, these kids can't pay. They were six to ten year olds, and they can't pay attention to all basketball for 6 hours straight. And so I thought, I got to do something different here. And so that was why when we started mixing in story time and music and dancing and that kind of thing. But I wanted to ask you, I have my own opinion on this, but you're one of the few guys I know, musician, you know, I'm a fiddle player, as you know, but I'm nothing professional like you, but I take it serious. I practiced this morning, but I wonder. I wonder if you. I have my own opinion. I wonder what you feel like the crossover is between music and basketball.

[15:47] MARK ALVARADO: It's performance. Yeah, it's performance. You know, I remember as a kid learning how to play the game and fundamentally learning how to play the game and practicing and putting in the time like an instrument. You have to put in the time because talent will only take you so far in basketball, and talent will only take you so far in music. So you have to put in the practice time. Right. But when it's time to for a game, I always had to make sure my socks were clean, my shoes were clean, my uniform was ready to go psychologically in it. And just like a stage performance, I had to make sure that I was wearing a heeled shoe, that my pants were pressed, and I was all together, because when I went out on stage or if I went out on the court, I was in a public sphere and I had to perform, I had to produce. And if I didn't produce, coach would take me out or I'd get booed off stage. Right, one of the other. So it's that to me that was always the correlation, was taking pride in practicing, working hard, and making sure that your appearance was together so that you not only, and you might have heard this before, sometimes you, in order to play the part, you have to look the part.

[17:03] RUSS BRADBURD: Yeah, I think that's it. What I was going to say, I had never thought of it that way, and I think that's a really smart way to think about it. What I was going to say was that I remember for basketball, it's one of the only sports you can do alone. You can't do baseball by yourself and you can't do football by yourself. I suppose there's things you could do with a soccer ball and that kind of thing, but. But what I found was, you know, you go practice by yourself, then you go to the playground or the tryouts or whatever, and you realize, hey, everybody can, you know, dribble with their left hand except for me. Now you go back and practice by yourself. Well, I've noticed that with music, too. Is that like, geez, everybody, I can only I can't even play any, I can't even play in the key of c, but I can play in g. And now I've got. Or, you know, everyone knows this tune except for me. You know, as you know, I play a lot of old time and I irish music, but I found the similarities where you get together with a group for a music session and it's just like getting together with the guys for a pickup basketball game and you realize how bad you are or how embarrassed you are. You know, here's what everyone can do except for me, and now you can go practice by yourself. And so I think what was appealing to me about basketball in retrospect was the aloneness of it. I liked the aloneness of it. Like, I know I seem pretty social to you, but I do like working on something by myself, and I still do it now. First thing when I get up in the morning, before I get my coffee, I don't look at the Internet or my, or my email, but I go right to the, you know, I go get my fiddle out and learn, try and learn a new tune. And there's something sort of zeny, kind of. But does that happen with you? Like, did you play by yourself?

[18:31] MARK ALVARADO: You must have played, you have to practice by yourself.

[18:34] RUSS BRADBURD: I mean, both, both music and every day.

[18:37] MARK ALVARADO: I still do.

[18:37] RUSS BRADBURD: Yeah.

[18:38] MARK ALVARADO: In writing. I was going to use writing also as an example of something that's very lonely.

[18:43] RUSS BRADBURD: Yes.

[18:43] MARK ALVARADO: Right. Writing. And, you know, this as a writer, you know, you have to really kind of get into a lonely zone to dig deep, to pull your thoughts together to make something happen. Right. So, yeah, it's, it's that it's all, it's all correlated. You know, Russ, another thing that I wanted to ask you, I've been thinking about this is our relationship with UTEP basketball and our relationship with Don Haskins and our relationship with the 66 team and what that did for El Paso. And I firmly believe that basketball and the barrio is somehow related to that 66 team because what that 66 team did gave so much pride to this town, even to this day. And then with Glory road, you know, and I'll never forget watching Glory Road and my, my brother in law, who is from El Paso, at the end, when they, when they were coming in and they were playing, I think it was a Sam Cooke song and, and the guys were coming off the plane. Right.

[19:58] RUSS BRADBURD: Yeah. A change is gonna come, maybe. Yeah.

[20:01] MARK ALVARADO: And, and my, my brother in law, who's half german, half Mexican, is just in tears as that is happening.

[20:09] RUSS BRADBURD: Yeah.

[20:09] MARK ALVARADO: And, you know, it's something that really speaks to what we do. And I just, I wanted to ask you how you see the correlation with UTEP basketball and you being part of that program and how they think the 66 creates the diversity of what we provide culturally to the children.

[20:29] RUSS BRADBURD: Yeah, I think that's, of course, I would have never thought that when we started basketball in the party, it just, I thought, here's a way for we can take care of some poor kids and I can give back, but also. And keep Rocky Galarza's name alive. But I do think there's a straight line from, you know, from Will Lawrence Nixon, the great black doctor that Beto O'Rourke talks about all the time. He, you know, he sued to get his right to vote in the state of Texas. And then Burt Williams, who helped rewrite the Jim Crow law, you know, into the Jim Crow laws as a city legislature, than Nolan Richardson playing for Don Haskins and Don Haskins breaking the color line and those kinds of things. And indirectly, I'm sort of part of that. I'm the weird cousin in that family. I'm the weird cousin whose socks don't match. But I do think that it's part of it. And I think what, a lot of it goes back to is sport as an agent for social change. So I would say that is that sports is often the great equalizer where I think people are less likely to say, I don't want that guy around because of the color of his skin or his religion or that kind of thing, or his gender or that kind of thing, or his sexual preferences. It's less likely to happen in sports than almost anywhere else, except maybe music. So I think there's that aspect. I think there's that aspect of things that sports is often the great equalizer, and I think that's. But I also think. I think the real star of the basketball and the bar was just El Paso. And in my opinion, there's a warm warmth to mexican american people that are. That you don't find. Not to disparage other people. But I know that for me, I felt totally welcome. And I imagine that the 66 team. Oh, I've heard stories how Nolan would take the recruits, Nolan Richardson would take the recruits to Mexico and they would, you know, get treated like kings, and here's a steak dinner for $1.50 and dance with the girls. And isn't this great? And no one was saying, you can't dance with the mexican girls. You can't. And it's because it. I know I lived in Belfast for a while, as you know, and it's a catholic protestant thing is still very strong there. But when you get a third group in there, like I've said this for a long time, what they really need in Belfast in Northern Ireland is about 50,000 Mexicans, because then, now there's three groups, and it changes the dynamic and, well, who's our enemy now and who are we, you know? And so I would imagine that in this, I wasn't around. I was only seven in 1966, but I would imagine that they were playing in front of a largely hispanic crowd, especially when the games were at the coliseum, which is in segundo barrio also. So I do think. But I think El Paso is really sort of the star of what happened is I don't think what Don Haskins did or Nolan Richardson did or that we've done. Like, at one point, you know, Stevie Allen, of course, the co founder and co director, he said to me once, let's go to Phoenix and let's go to. I want to go to Phoenix and Memphis and we're going to go to St. Louis. And I thought, well, on paper, that all sounds good, but not the same. Yeah. I mean, would you, don't you think?

[23:30] MARK ALVARADO: No, absolutely.

[23:31] RUSS BRADBURD: So you weren't born here. But you came here. You were maybe 30 when you came, something like that.

[23:36] MARK ALVARADO: No, I was a little younger than that when I came. After I finished, I had a professional music career in California, and then I needed to finish school and get myself going. So I came to El Paso because I had family here, and I always loved El Paso for the very reasons that you just described, because I believe that the greatest people in the world live in El Paso, Texas. Okay. I don't care what background you are. There's just something very unique and special about the people who live here. And getting back to Bobby Bird and how I got involved with the camp and meeting you, I don't think. I don't think it was by chance that what happened and losing Bobby and me being my first camp and us having the chance to go and read the poem in Bobby's backyard, and Bobby heard us, and thunder and lightning, and it was raining. It was just so surreal. It was like a procession. It was very spiritual. A lot of stuff was going on. And, you know, and then when I flew back to Santa Barbara the next day, and when I landed and the message came from you, and it was like, I'm sorry, mark, but Bobby's gone. And I was just devastated, because I was like, well, what does all this mean then? You know, what does all this mean? I just went through this beautiful experience. The most unique and rewarding experience of working with children in my career was in three days and meeting beautiful people and then getting the chance to say goodbye to Bobby, and then I. Saying goodbye to Bobby?

[25:17] RUSS BRADBURD: Yeah, we probably better back up. You know, every year when I first met Bobby, I said, you're the guy who wrote that poem. Basketball is a holy way to grow old. And he was astounded that a basketball coach would know a poem, or a poet, for that matter. And so. But every year for the last 20, maybe 20 or 25 years, rather than on the Sunday at camp, you know, everyone's exhausted Sunday morning, and we had to do something to get people. But rather than saying, hey, come on, get out there and don't be lazy, get out there. But instead, we would have. I do a little bit of that. But before camp starts on Sundays, we would always have Bobby read his poem to the coaches. While the kids were inside doing their stretching and warmups, Bobby would read his poem to the 25 or 30 coaches. And so he would read basketball as a holy way to grow old. And then this year, this past summer, in the summer of 2022, I guess I thought, well, Bobby was battling stomach cancer and leukemia. And I thought, who's going to read the poem? I thought, well, I'll just read the poem. And I thought, I won't be able to read the poem. I'll crack. I'll get too emotional. But. So we decided to go to Bobby's house afterwards. But I wonder, just if you could start from getting to Bobby, if you could just give your recollection of what happened.

[26:28] MARK ALVARADO: I just remember it was a bit solemn. It was cloudy. There was, you know, thunder and lightning in the background as we all pulled together, about 30 of us, as you.

[26:40] RUSS BRADBURD: Said, in the backyard.

[26:41] MARK ALVARADO: And then we started to walk into the backyard. And then as we started to read the poem, it started to thunder with rain and lightning with rain. And we were being kind of naturally blessed as we were reading this thing. Everybody had tears in their eyes as they were reading the poem. And it was a. In unison. It was a choir. It was beautiful. And then when we were done, we were saying our goodbyes, and I looked in there and I said, hey, Bobby, see you later, man. I love you. And he said, mark, I love you, too. And, you know, and to get that. That reinforcement of the love, because once again, it's all about that, right? It's about the love that we have for what we do. And Bobby represented that. And it all came into fruition right in that point. And it was beautiful. And as we were leaving, we were all crying as we were walking out. And once again, it was like a procession, and it was beautiful. And so to be able to experience that. And then when you told me when I got home that Bobby had passed, it was. I was wondering, what the heck did we just go through?

[27:52] RUSS BRADBURD: Yeah, I know. And, of course, we read the poem in unison. And I forgot until we started, it's a three page poem, you know. So we were reading it, and the.

[28:00] MARK ALVARADO: Papers were getting wet, right?

[28:02] RUSS BRADBURD: And it was big drops coming down. I thought, we're not going to make it through here. But then. But I could just barely see him because it was a screen door, you know, sometimes you can't see. But that, you know, that turned out to be his deathbed, you know, that was where he died. But there was something about it, you know, when his son in law, Eddie, who'd been to basketball camp probably nearly every time we've had it over the 30 years, and he left me a message and I called him back, but I don't know. I think because of what you just said, not because of what you just said, but I think you've summed up. I wouldn't have been able to put it into words maybe, but I sort of felt a sense of closure. I have not wept yet for Bobby Bird. You know, I just felt like there's nothing like. It wasn't like, you know, like, for example, the great basketball player Kent Lockhart just died a week ago, and he played in the 1980s. He was a great player and an artist, but he was in Australia and he wasn't. He was no Internet, no cell phone, no. No email. And I just. It broke my heart that we were so out of touch because he was such a great guy and we got along so well. And I hadn't. I've talked to him twice in the last 30 years. But with Bobby. With Bobby Bird, I just felt like, you know, he's sort of like the official camp poet, and he was such, you know, giving the book he and Lee Bird that ran Cinco Punto's press there was such an integral part of the camp. But. But that felt like, you know, it just felt like the right way to say goodbye to somebody.

[29:24] MARK ALVARADO: I mean, for myself personally, really, I should share that. You know, being a Chicano, being a Mexican American, you know, a lot of times we have to work extra hard in order to kind of create our identity within more of a dominant society. And El Paso is not that hard. But in California, where I grew up, it's really competitive that way, you know? And so when I came to El Paso, Bobby Bird gave me a lot of validation of who I was as an artist, who I was as a human being, who I was as a person. And so for me, when you have somebody of such great stature that believes in you and it kind of tells you that, you know, what? Everything that you've been doing thus far and going forward is in the right direction. And Bobby was like a cheerleader like that for me. Right? Even after I left El Paso on Facebook or whatever, sending me messages, you know, hey, I'm seeing you. I'm watching you, man. Keep on going, man.

[30:21] RUSS BRADBURD: Well, I should probably. I should probably say mark. He's the first older person I ever met that I thought, that's how I want to turn out. You know, like, he seemed very soulful and authentic and down to earth, but also a lifetime of commitment to the arts. And he just wasn't. He wasn't interested in money or fame. It was all about the art and all about connection and, you know, I don't know if you knew, I think you probably knew his background, but. But he was he lived in Memphis, and he was. His father died when he was about three or four. Died in a plane crash, in an army test flight or something like that in Mississippi. And so he was fatherless, and he was raised by a woman named Tula, an african american woman that his mother had hired to just take care of the kids. And so he had this openness and sensitivity to black culture. And growing up in Memphis in the fifties, it's, you know, walk down. Walk. Yeah, walk down and go see Bo Diddley and go see BB King on Beale street. This is before Beale street. When Beale street was before became touristy. I never saw it before it became touristy. And so he had this. He had this unique background. I think he had an open heart for, you know, for the little guy. And I think. I don't think Bobby ident, you know, I hate to put labels on people. I don't think I was so much identified as being white. I mean, I think he had felt like he had more in common with hispanic people in El Paso and black people that played for the minors or that kind of thing. But I think he had a sensitivity to the little guy and the underdog, and he was very passionate. You know, many people, not everyone knows this. He was very deeply involved in Zen Buddhism in the last decade of his life. But he had a temper. If he saw injustice. You know, Nolan Richardson was like that, boy, you. You get on. You do something. You hurt somebody or you do something mean spirited or racist, boy, you could be on bobby birds. You would be on Bobby Bird's wrong side forever.

[32:06] MARK ALVARADO: I can identify with that. But I think, you know, just to kind of wrap this piece up about Bobby is that, you know, the greatest people in the world are the most genuine people I've learned. And I think like a Don Haskins, right, people like that of Bobby Bird and Nolan Richardson. Genuine, genuine people. And I think that's what separates good from great. And Bobby falls into that with me.

[32:33] RUSS BRADBURD: And my feeling is that his Cinco punto's press, for one thing, but he wasn't. I mean, he was well known as a poet in El Paso and in the border, and I think other poets thought he was a great poet, but I do think his work will stand the test of time. New Mexico State University just bought.

[32:49] MARK ALVARADO: Oh, wow.

[32:49] RUSS BRADBURD: So, you know, most poets aren't selling their. Aren't selling their archives like most people wouldn't be interested in. You know, my wife was a poet, and I feel like in some ways, you know, that, you know, I met Connie, I probably knew Bobby for 15 years before I met Connie, but in some ways, it's sort of a weird thing to say, but in some ways, it was sort of like marrying Bobby in that, you know, that it was Bobby that was giving me books of poetry to read and, you know, whereas maybe I would get him basketball tickets and that kind of thing. And so for a long time, and when I first met Bobby, Suzie was off at college, Johnny was off at college, and Andy, the only boy, was busy with soccer. So I would go by, you know, I was going by every week and sit on the porch with him and, you know, have a glass of wine and talk about poetry, and he would give me books, and then I'd bring them back two weeks later and we would talk about him. But he was the first one. In fact, he was. I think he was a little bit when I quit coaching, he was one of the ones that really encouraged me, you know, that this was. It was a, you know, I was making pretty good money when I quit at New Mexico State, so to make pretty good money to go to writing school was not a great financial move, but Bobby was, you know, was. Was very encouraging. And, you know, and Bobby met Rocky a couple times. I took, you know, one time I was taking people to Rocky's nightclub for when I. By the time I got to New Mexico state, I couldn't train there anymore. It was too far across to drive, to exercise. But I would come down on the weekends and go on a Friday night and go hear little Mike and the night drifters. Who was the greatest band ever, as far as I was concerned? Pure, pure fifties. It's one of the things that I think people outside of the border area don't understand is that the Mexican Americans love their. They love their UTEP miners, but, and they love, you know, and they love their food, but they really love the oldies. Yeah, that, there's something sort of. There's a. There's something about that era, you know.

[34:42] MARK ALVARADO: The chicano epicenter of the world and chicano culture that spread out all over the world was. Originated in El Paso.

[34:51] RUSS BRADBURD: Yes. And where style address talk Pachuco from El Chuco. But how did El Paso get the nickname El Chuco?

[35:00] MARK ALVARADO: So what happened was that the Pachuco movement of the 1940s was a style of dress. Well, it had a lingo that came with it, too. And so when the guys started to go to LA to go to work and they had that style of dress, I said, where are you from? And they said, el Chuco okay, they were from El Paso. And it was both. It was both. It was both sides. It was Juarez and El Paso. Cause it was always considered one. And back in those days, in the forties and fifties, people traversed back and forth like it was the same town.

[35:33] RUSS BRADBURD: Yes. And people don't know that. When I remember hearing this story when Don Haskins first came to town to El Paso, before he ever coached a game for Texas Western, it was called at the time that El Paso was dry and that, you know, that you had to go to Juarez to get a beer each. Isn't that weird? Cause I know where he went. The first night he was in town, he had to go out to the Morocco club. Club Morocco, which is on the edge of Sunland park in Anapara. And that he went there was an old guy named Red Menders, and Red owned the Morocco club. And you could get a steak at the Morocco club. Even up in the nineties, you could get a steak dinner for, like, $6.95. And they had those of those ugly red naugahyde booths. And. And Red was an old guy. He looked probably the way I'll look if I ever get to be 90, you know? But. But he was the one who gave Don Haskins his first, because it's outside the city limits. But at one time, Wattus was huge. You know, Frank Sinatra played Wattus, and James Brown played Watto's, and bb king played Wattus that would never have dreamed of playing El Paso. But Wattus was a big.

[36:32] MARK ALVARADO: They said that it was like Hollywood.

[36:34] RUSS BRADBURD: Yeah.

[36:35] MARK ALVARADO: That even neither Wattley, it was a very, very popular destination for artists. And so, you know, it's just. It's just the history, the culture, the legacy of this area, of this town, this neighborhood right where we are here in Segundo Barrio is. Is something that is a treasure not only to the people of El Paso, to the state of Texas, to the United States. And you really. I was fortunate that I was able to be here for 17 years and to really absorb and build the relationships with people and work in the community, perform in the community, and to come back and to do basketball and Ed Barrio is really coming like a full circle. But in the sense that continuing to give, you know, continuing to contribute, continuing to, like, light a fire in a kid's heart. If it's not music, maybe it's paint. If it's not paint, maybe it's dance. Maybe it's something that the camp is providing, and that is just a unique experience for those couple days that we're together. So I'm just. I'm just. I'm honored to be a part of this, you know?

[37:42] RUSS BRADBURD: I know, I know. You live in. Used to live in Santa Barbara, right?

[37:44] MARK ALVARADO: Correct.

[37:44] RUSS BRADBURD: And so one of the things, you know, I know immigration is sort of a hot button issue in this country, but it's not for me. I think. I think for people who lived, you know, El Paso, you know, I grew up in Chicago, and one of the great things my dad did was we never went for hamburgers or that kind. It was always, we're going to go to greek food, korean food, chinese food, Italian, Mexican. And it was through food, which is like, music and sport can often be the bridge to other cultures. But it never, it always seemed sort, you know, like, I remember the high school I went to in Chicago was called von Steuben High School, and there's 28 languages being spoken in the ESL classes. So pretty international, where it wouldn't be like that here. But the feeling that, the international feeling that I got growing up in Albany park in Chicago, that also, I think that's very much here. It's more of a single ethnicity here. But I think my feeling is that anyone who's sort of anti immigration needs to come live in El Paso for a while. I think it would change your mind. For me, it seems great. It seems perfectly fine.

[38:49] MARK ALVARADO: There's something kind of holy and spiritual about El Paso, and I experienced it when I worked in this community. I would come from up near Fort Bliss, and I would have to come and park on the streets to go to the office here at the center. And there was always a group of ladies. They were at the bus stop, and they were going to catch the bus to go clean the houses up on the west side. Right. And so they were always chattering, talking, but when they would see me coming, they would stop and they would say, good morning. How was your evening, sir? Good morning. And I would say, good morning. Buenos dias. Comos de. Como malacio. Right. But doing that day after day after day after day after day after day, I realized that they were giving me a blessing that's carried me on to this day, because for people to take the time to acknowledge you is acknowledgment of respect. And that's something that's unique about El Paso. And El Paso people are like that.

[39:51] RUSS BRADBURD: Yeah. And you mentioned. I forgot. I'm really glad you brought up Fort Bliss because I hadn't thought of that connection. But, you know, Nolan Richardson, the groundbreaking, pioneering basketball coach, he, you know, he grew up playing at Fort Bliss. And there's Fort Bliss, of course, is the army base. And there were african american soldiers would come there. And I guess in the 1950s, early 1960s, there was a man named Hilton White, and Hilton was a New York guy, and he was the one who recommended the New York players that Haskins play with, that Haskins recruited from Willie Worsley, Willie Cager, who's still in town here, Neville Shedd, and then later Nate Archibald. They had all played on Hilton White's playground in New York, and that Hilton was sort of there. But Hilton White had come here in the sixties and had realized it's not perfect, but it's a pretty good place for african american kids to get, to get accepted and treated equally and that kind of thing. So one of my great regrets, Hilton White passed away. He died fairly young. And I just feel terrible that I never met him. But I do think we've talked about El Paso and Nolan Richardson and Don Haskins and Rocky Galarza. But Fort Bliss also has a role in that, I think, is that many of the first African Americans who came here came to work in the service and live at Fort Bliss, and many of them stayed.

[41:07] MARK ALVARADO: Well, definitely because there's a VFW, african american VFW right here in the neighborhood. I don't know. Are you familiar with that?

[41:13] RUSS BRADBURD: No, but I didn't know that. But we're right down the street from Douglas school, the african american school that, where Nolan Richardson went until 1954.

[41:21] MARK ALVARADO: I was really fortunate to have a relationship with coach, with coach Nolan and a small one with coach Haskins, but being able to sit down with both of those guys at the same time with two hall of Fame legendary coaches.

[41:33] RUSS BRADBURD: I never did that.

[41:34] MARK ALVARADO: Yeah, and to play pool with Don Haskins, I never did that either. And I want to talk about basketball, but let's talk about life, you know, let's talk about you, or let's talk about what's going on, you know? And coach, you know, was Nolan was, you know, El Paso to the bone and used to love to see him chop it up in Spanish with local guys and kids that he taught at Bowie that remembered him and just, you know, one on one within the community. And I just think that's just a beautiful experience.

[42:03] RUSS BRADBURD: Did Don Haskins take your money in the pool?

[42:06] MARK ALVARADO: I didn't want to play him at first, but then he told me, don't worry, we're not going to play for money. This is just for fun.

[42:10] RUSS BRADBURD: You're okay then. I never saw him do it, but there's others. There's legions of stories of him hustling people, losing on purpose the first couple games and then race it to $100.

[42:20] MARK ALVARADO: This was later, this was later on in his, in his life.

[42:23] RUSS BRADBURD: It wasn't, he didn't need the money.

[42:25] MARK ALVARADO: Maybe I didn't have any to give anyway.

[42:28] RUSS BRADBURD: So that's fun to think. It's fun to think about the history of it. But, of course, at the time, you don't realize the connections and the, and the, you can't connect the dots at the time.

[42:37] MARK ALVARADO: But, you know, I just think, in closing, Russ, I just think that this opportunity to talk a little bit about El Paso basketball and Navarro, the legacy and all the famous people that we, that were associated with, it just, it's the platform and the foundation for us to continue doing this program. And so once again, I just wanted to thank you, man, for wait.

[42:58] RUSS BRADBURD: I got to be a part of for 30 years. How much more do we have to do it?

[43:01] MARK ALVARADO: I don't know, but you've got a lot of young people involved, so we've got to keep on moving forward.

[43:05] RUSS BRADBURD: I know it's hard to believe 30 years have had happened, but anyway, yeah, it's great to see you, Mark, and we'll stay in touch. Of course. We'll see you at basketball camp next.

[43:11] MARK ALVARADO: Thank you so much.