Marvin Pettiford and Daulton Jones

00:02 My name is Marvin pettiford. I'm 84 years of age. Today's date is Thursday, March 12th, 2020.

00:10 We're in Bakersfield California. The name of the person that I'm interviewing with is.

00:17 Daulton Jones relationship for just an old friend and a young friend

00:26 My name is Dalton Jones. I am 24 years old today. Today is March 12th. 2024 in Bakersfield, California Marvin Jerry better for a relationship. He's an old tell me.

00:46 I worked. Yeah, we were talking the other day. We had planned to talk. We've been doing this for months and we finally began last night.

01:00 Fortunately, it's ending up here.

01:04 You were going to show me some trends that young people have over. We began talking about the black experience with Dad and we talked about all the black experiences from high double dip to double this double double that that by me again and let me know how it is today in your world with that with color or something. So

01:28 You know what you we know black folks. We still we still separate each other by color for summer from time to time. You have the you still have the Yellow Bones the redbones brown bones. The blue bounds. Everybody is a bone.

01:45 We got we were talking about it in terms of like colorism in like how to shut up in my family. Like I was the other grandchild because all my cousin double-dip. I was the devil different one because all my cousins were like vanilla and caramel and then I was not just chocolate. I was like double dipped in chocolate which to them was like, oh, that's great. But then to me and my God dang, I'm the different one. If I was light-skinned, I'd be the cooler cousin, right and it actually causes problems within the community of self you're treated differently. It was like that when I was growing up the doctors. Can you were

02:26 And we talked about going to little bit to the side. There's a classification you gave me that you taught me about the hair texture. Yeah, we have was a C1 C2 C3. You not tell me yes hair types. There's a hair chart that a lot of like black women father when they go about like doing their hair. So you have like three C 3A 3B 3C 4A 4B 4C and there's other numbers to but those are like me and leave the numbers a lot of like black women and black men like that's where we are. So if you're like a for your hair pattern is like a z playback failure curl is because he crawl if your 3 your head like a NASCAR also tell looser called Closer to like why that's what people want them. That's what people want to even even though. It's not like a skin color. It's like

03:21 The hair hierarchy. Yeah, that's all part of that casting system. We placed on each other and it has been intact again. I'm repeating myself ever since I was a kid, but I didn't know it had got so sophisticated.

03:42 And as as your grown-up, there's been less Netflix more sophisticated racism that you come in contact with.

03:53 I would say it has the reason I was talking with you about this. I want to talk with you about it is to let you know that in our society. It hasn't really gotten better in just gotten structured differently. We we like to use the word Paradigm as depicting a structure and the Paradigm has changed but the conversation to say exactly I think it's harder for you than it was for me. Why because remember I was trying to tell you that I grew up in a community when I was young school was in the community this to search the theater the pool room the pool everything I needed was in the community a group of Chicago on the Southside.

04:42 And I didn't have to leave that Community for everything. So all my needs were met and as a young person I really wasn't aware of the kinds of things that you would be aware of today. You don't have that community that we had before the to go to the batter that is debatable what the communities were ghettos in those days. Now when you live in an all-black environment is called ghetto and it's depressing for me to hear that and I wonder how the young people deal with it.

05:16 I hear expressions like I'm not ghetto really not ghetto. I don't know quite what that means other than the fact that maybe you don't live in a particular environment any longer. So you're telling me how to look at young people and they enter conversations they have and not maybe not I won't be insulted but at least I'll understand better about life and you know, one of the questions from what you decide that I thought would be cool to ask.

05:44 Is how do you think having that?

05:47 Living in this neighborhood when you were so young like when you were like developing and stuff or anything living in my this black space helped you as an adult. Like, how did it form you?

05:58 I think I have less fear. Then you may have the the community.

06:06 The way was struck to the way I saw it, but it's not known but I could walk the streets without worrying about somebody telling me to get off the street or you go to jail. I had that experience when I went South as a teenager.

06:22 I had a lot of experiences when I got a hold of that work cause me to cry cause me d125 many many emotions went through my head living in that Community. I did not experience those kinds of emotions as a young person. I just wasn't there.

06:39 I didn't say I knew about it as I got older my red. What is a 7/8 year old?

06:51 Emmett Till and I were the same age and I remember him is leaving Chicago and going down to going south and then the incident that happened to him and the sense that all of a sudden my neighborhood. I want to stay in it.

07:07 In some ways because it was safe. I didn't want to leave.

07:12 I mean, you know that that wasn't emotional not want to leave.

07:16 By then if 15 years of age. I know that I have to be in order to grow. I just can't stay on the same street in the same Corner because the flip side of that is if you come back for five years later and you still standing on the same corner and some people were

07:32 It's just amazing. We had the ways of measuring success.

07:38 In the old days. So speak back in the day. I guess that's expression. They like to use when you went into the barbershop, but you had here to ride you got man.

07:52 And depending on your ride depending on the kind of automobile. You had that said about what your success probably was. So if I told you I had a Lincoln then I had a ride. I told you I was still driving Chevy. I had five years ago. I was in bad shape.

08:10 So are our system eBay of evaluating when I was young is West different than what it is fixed, but I can see yeah, I don't I don't know all the ins and outs of it.

08:24 Respond to that like what do you feel like a measure of success is at this point for me personally.

08:33 I'd like a different just good like

08:37 To be real I haven't I don't really care about like the money stuff. Like I think it's a great and yeah, I would also Luxor funded. I certainly understand like from me like measuring. What is Augustus me Health little to do about like what Mateo going to have in like what I'm actually

08:58 Doing for other people in the world. So like I feel successful when

09:06 I'm able to like gather bunch of people and we're both so I can move shit and whether that's like a policy or whether that's just like us coming together and talk about our emotions and doing like a healing Circle that success to me not some now. I would also like to be hunted for me and has more to do with why do I feel fulfilled fulfilled?

09:31 I think there and maybe lives a difference in where we were years ago. Everybody wanted to be successful. I don't remember anybody embracing the idea what you just articulated which I think is actually because from a no prospective now, if you do things that you like and you do them, well, you're going to be successful pretty simple math, but in those days it was always about being successful going to school getting an education as it was beaten to our heads from a very young age.

10:09 You want to talk about the barbershop love Barbershop, but they never asked about what you would do it for anybody. How much do suits cost that sort of thing. So they on this premise that that you give it to me now, I'm hearing I can't I can't relate to that ever being part of the of the agenda. I don't mean that we didn't care. I don't mean that that people didn't help but I don't think we thought about it. I think it was just an understood thing that you did.

10:46 From personal perspective. It has no real value except I didn't like bullies and I would find anybody that was a bullet for me. I think like what you just said is like how my parents talked about it like it's very much like school money goes to move out of the city do something better like the uplift generation. That's where my parents generation and I honestly think that I got fucked over a lot by the education system we talked about and that is honestly why I feel like I'm probably where I'm at now because they just put me in a position to where it was like,

11:37 I'm not going to ever succeed how they want me to succeed. So you are you have a lot of strikes against you. Yeah coming out of the gate lit is a cup doubled doubled a special education and just a dummy and general literally literally, so I was just like, I think that that like experience when I was younger of forms, like if I'm going to succeed I'm not going to see see how they want me to succeed. This is how I'm probably going to succeed to like being there for people caring that kind of stuff versus like I'm probably never going to be rich because I don't know how to do like to do the Pythagorean theorem in the second. You know, she growing the tree

12:25 It comes what happens with me as I listen to you is.

12:31 I wonder what real changes we've done for our people ourselves. There's this Society. So that's always been a press up to us as a group and then it's us the crab in the barrel kind of thing.

12:53 It seems like there's not enough.

12:57 And maybe because I haven't been involved enough that might be my fault and people encouraging us to

13:05 Look past that and help other folks do the thing. The old people like myself need to be more involved with all your folks so we can see where they're going and my hope is that I've gotten a bit of wisdom in time. I can see I can see different things know we spoke generally about

13:30 I spoke you didn't speak about it. I spoke about learning about the LBGTQ community and the only way that I learned was to church.

13:39 And I had been a person didn't go to church church was looking for you. What church was a lie? It was a lie and church and I just I thought what the hell and I did this is what I was young.

13:58 This is when I was young I said there there's a historical data on Jesus Christ was a good dude. And that's all.. That's the end of that. I didn't have this for The Who The sophistication?

14:13 That I may have today to understand what religion is and its detriments far as I'm concerned. It's Society. That's what I think about religion. The the religion in the sense that it is.

14:29 It should be reconstructed at least Christianity. I don't know nothing about his I don't know nothing about Hindus for a while. It was a baby. I went through the whole night. You can get circumcised or you like it. Yeah, you can do that. You can do that twice it wasn't it was a ritualistic.

14:57 Okay. Yeah, I know who actually and there was a cut on the foreskin.

15:05 But interested interesting dolphin.

15:09 I didn't feel a thing.

15:11 I was into it.

15:15 It wasn't on the glans penis. Okay, it's just the force that didn't even hold me into the concept that I didn't even hold you. Yeah, and they have circumcision can't do it. Don't know why I'm even today. I'm not keen on. The reason. I went to church start at the church is one of my daughters is an Episcopal priest and a while and I thought I was doing she came home one day and said she had an epiphany. I don't even know if I knew what Epiphany mentioned that she wanted to be a priest.

16:01 She was on college. So we said okay that you're pretty.

16:06 Anyway, that's why I got into religion and I've been in it for a few years.

16:11 Same old BS invitation to a religious structure

16:37 The place of the church in Black Culture or religion or lying quiz questions on yeah. Yeah. It was a necessary structure. I think now fired years ago 200 years ago. I think it's from Roll has hasn't evolvd enough.

17:00 To address today's issues and the difference of how to get to these issues. Of course, I shouldn't criticize at church cuz I haven't participated enough to see what is doing very well be doing that buttons. This is me looking from the outside yet. So if it looks like I'm coconut a good Christian probably another good question. I think I'm a good person. I like to think that anyway, I saw the thing itch.

17:29 I watch the when I say watch the decline of read about the decline of them people involved in religion, and I understand

17:41 It hasn't evolves with them to give them a place to be comfortable and to seek a better understanding of creation. I'm not a creationist. I guess that's the word that I'm looking for. But I don't think this all the stuff which is random. I

17:59 I don't have the intellectual ability even talked about it and Beyond where I am right this minute. I don't think it was just a big explosion, but I don't know where to go over there. There's no way all people if anyone if any other people I know people will tell you this. All you need to do is believe and you'll be fine.

18:20 That's not my my head is for me personally, like I grew up in the church. Like my parents are going to my garage the month. I was born I see no a month before whole life and my grandmother was like devout Christian All That Jazz.

18:39 But for me when I think about the church or like spirituality for black with black dude with the black community?

18:51 I want to say it. I don't.

18:55 I do think that.

18:59 The current church needs to get it together because

19:05 The way that they the way that we carpet currently preaching the gospel. I don't think is going to worry about actually on his God. I think it's in a way that honors people sure. I think it's in a way that honors.

19:20 Just a bunch of pout political BS. That isn't going to help anybody right now. We're talkin right now. The church is talking a lot about. Oh, how can we do this better? How can we do this better? How can we do? I why I care so much about the people I care so much other people do the homeless people but like they don't they never really go outside the four walls and

19:44 Evidence of the day like for your question, you're saying that you're choosing to live your life like Christ did Christ didn't care about the walls of the church. He literally like he didn't care. If you lived in the walls of the church. He literally caught up in you walk. He was with the people who are in like the pits and like sat with them.

20:04 So when I think about what we need to be doing is Christian, especially like black Christians, we need to go outside of the four walls, and we need to communicate and we need to connect with people for me like

20:17 When I think about spirituality and I think about that aspect I feel like right now the church is doing really well. Not really. Well, I think the church is doing what they need, but not actually know in legal aspects of like before going to go ABCD. I guess they're doing their thing. But in terms of like the spiritual part of church, that's not there because your spirituality should

20:48 Lead you to going outside the church. It should lead you like helping the person who doesn't look like you just because like you both are human and we're not doing that enough and I think how that's played a role with black people specifically and like the Dyess boring contacts.

21:05 I can't think of one of our movements where spirituality religion will call it religion at that point wasn't involved. Like if you think about Haiti and the Haitian revolution, if you talk to Haitian, they'll be like my magic they are magic saved as sure if you look in the Civil Rights Movement. Yeah, people were like Christian, but also they were joining together in the thing that we can't put a name to they were being taught. They were literally like being fueled by this unknown force that when we all calling God or your spirituality if you were down at the other thing to take for me

21:44 I think that.

21:47 For black people going back to this place that we can't like.

21:53 That we can't name is a vital because that's that's who we are. That's where we come from. Do you think that trying to bring a couple things together when we talked about religion or we talked about spirituality and then we look at this thing called implicit bias or biases that if we had more spirituality, obviously, that's kind of a redundant question. How are young black people doing dealing with?

22:27 Is racism what is a doing? What are we doing with racism how they how they manipulate and I should hear in front of you angry all the time because I've been ashamed and Afraid most of my life now because I never knew I never felt safe after leaving that community that I told you about. It's a young person because was always a possibility of me going to jail for nothing.

22:57 Big hard for nothing and I'm still in our system is based on Christianity. So we are Christianity and upholding the racism.

23:08 So the negative part about this says anytime you hold poison in your system it poisons you there's no doubt about it. There's a lot of emotions. I probably wouldn't have if I could just let go of most of it. So young old man talking to you.

23:31 It would be idealistic. If you could let go of the hatred that runs behind races and then runs with racism but deal with it and I have no idea how you can do that. I couldn't you know, that's a lot of questions. I feel like

23:54 I think it's just my generation just really different. What I will say is like we are definitely angry.

24:02 Aware of a fucking angry, but you don't know where to go with the anger. Is that it and what to do with it. I feel like some of us don't know what to do with it, but I do think

24:15 For black people currently weird to send a we're evolving we're different because I feel like for instance like you were around the same age as my grandpa. And if I look at like him to my dad to me or you know, I mean for you to like my little brother the way that we specifically will just like the way that we have been able to

24:42 Feebas steady progression of black men being able to deal with their emotions is it's a tremendous because if I look at like somebody in my grandfather's groped like they were not taught to do any emotional shit. They were not taught that any of it was valuable. You supposed to keep going move on get your money my dad similar things a little more sensitive but not that much and then me I'm too sensitive and when it comes to like dealing with issues of race me and my friends are the black we talk about these issues and we're like this isn't okay, like what so what we talked about like how we're feeling about it, but then also like

25:29 We're not going to stay there.

25:31 So it's like we're really angry were really sad about it or they do young people I shouldn't is not a foolish question, but I don't see I don't see you as many young people as I'd like to see involved. I've just got into my

25:49 I just don't feel like for doing out there raising the flag and going to jail question ever went to jail.

26:03 I said you feel really angry a lot of the time. How do you work through that?

26:10 I keep telling myself that caring the anger is detrimental to you.

26:17 That change will come.

26:22 And it's not going to come.

26:26 In the time frame that you want nothing in my life.

26:31 That I can remember came in the time frame that I wanted a courses exception.

26:39 But big things

26:42 Change is going to happen.

26:46 It's just going to take more time and I won't be alive.

26:51 When there is a real significant change, I think within the next

26:55 By the time you're my age things will be a better than let's pray. Let's pray.

27:06 They when I think back when I was a kid.

27:10 And I when we would go downtown Chicago with my mother didn't know it then but she would go into a store and no one would wait on her. She had to fix up by item up and go find somebody and even then it was a kind of a nasty not an asset exchange because my mother never lower himself to be anything, but the light now but I would sense it and you know what? It wasn't that doesn't exist on a large-scale anymore still there a couple years ago. I was in Starbucks. They were four people in Starbucks.

27:54 And you see why you know where forward part of growing up you start being aware of where you are and it was around you and what they're doing it like they look like it's a black thing because I have a lot of friends that make fun of my awareness cuz I like how did you know I was doing anything other because I literally see everything went around me and I think that's like a safety mechanism that black people when you move outside of where you are comfortable. You should be aware of what you doing in a lot of ways.

28:28 But I wanted my coffee.

28:31 Got my coffee and turn to go to go out and there's a woman behind me paying for her coffee. She had a sling on one of my arm is in a cast.

28:42 And she said wait, you can't leave I can't leave keep my wallet is missing. Okay?

28:51 So, you know and then it dawned on me give like man my wallet special you may have stolen so you can't go any place.

29:01 It took a lot.

29:03 Not to get angry that I said what good is going to do today?

29:08 Just come down.

29:10 And the clerk the Barista said man, there's a there's a bothered right there by you a cast and your wallet and your pocketbook get stuck in between the Cavs and the pocketbook.

29:23 A man got up. He look like he was white light skin to gentleman and he said something to the effect that how dare you how could you even think that?

29:40 And I just turned to look at him. I said thank you, sir for being so respectful and nice 2 years ago.

29:48 And I don't I look over then as well as I do today. So, you know, it's not that it would have been any different had I been 17 or 18 years of age.

29:59 That this was a woman may be in her sixties.

30:03 Judging from what you look like and

30:08 That

30:10 Just told me.

30:12 That may be that group of people haven't quite or Stew Hansen of the virus that they have.

30:21 Is endemic

30:23 Society White Society

30:27 In this country almost around the world. I was reading a book called steel and iron and the people to develop the weapons of steel and iron are the ones who rule the world and the end they still do it's just just the dichotomies within a within our society. I just

30:49 Mesmerizing for me as I grow older I was looking at

30:53 Morgan was Morgan's last name of the actor Freeman play God Is a black man. I don't got school. Yeah, but I'm just saying that that

31:12 That would not have happened in 1955. No, no, it just would not have happened in course. It's happening today. It's one of like both cool moments in like black history. I feel like now we're able to like have those cool like little like, oh my God, there's a black guy and then and there is the the good that that we have that we see so many dumb things like those kinds of things help me deal with this anger that's inside of me to put it into it and let it go away.

31:49 For me like, yeah, I would say like TV social media music help me like

31:57 Deal with some of like the irritation that I have died base just by being a black person like when I listen to Sade like that automatically adjust the good black pipe or for instance. Like if I wanted like release my anger so I can listen to Knuck If You Buck by Crime Mob and that is a good nick of time is a good angry black time.

32:29 That probably is a vehicle also that I used to.

32:34 Count down the anger because I know the creativity within the community I think about jazz. It's it's Resurrection. I also think about and I was thinking about this today there. You can get a graduate degree in Black studies when I was in school. There wasn't anything except the Bible talk about black and slavery was okay.

33:04 So that's why I look the Bible and I have a real hard time King David had a bunch of slaves. A lot of them have a hella slaves and it was really okay.

33:15 This is going to convoluted mean to go there. But I mean that's the kind of thing that has perplexed me about religion and church and society and how it's put these things together to place a hand all those that are minorities now, and I'm strong and then you have

33:37 No, I have never knew I was going to I was going to talk politically but we shouldn't we have no power at we have on our way, but we don't have it right now between you and I know I'm excited for this generation of black people My Generation black people because I just think we're just so you know, and we're just so different and Mike when I think about shows like that would that are on television I think little more accessible to us sure like even even the show pose for instance pose is a show it has one C6 trans women of color are predominately black women and it's a show about Ballroom the ballroom culture in New York in the 1980s and 1990s and it's the cast of literally other than one person. I want to see the whole entire main cast is a bun.

34:37 Lgbtq, like trans queer people of color. That's cool. So it's like, you know that all of you would have been shot and killed little we're fucking bosses. Yeah little quick hits can see this or like adult quick if I can do this or like you old man can see it, you know what I mean, and we can get some resolution to the anger that we've had for not being for things not being good for a lot of people. Just what do you think?

35:16 Because Nick is an angry. Angry. What do you feel like with all your gears?

35:25 What do you feel like is a good way to utilize that anger?

35:30 I think you have to be educated. I don't mean that's really agitated bookwise.

35:36 But you've always have to have an agenda and a strategy that has an endpoint.

35:42 Point where you reach to meet that you can reach

35:47 Most probably what I would be saying is that we're going to walk two blocks today. We're not going to try to walk 2 miles of really cool. I like older I look at you like one of my elders her name is Embrace. She told me inch by inch is a fenced yard by yard. It's hard right and that's I pretty much you as an older person. I would say do something make sure you call to get the inch but don't know how to get to win in be like a punch like in can we punch the racist people?

36:27 Physically and mentally like a good like we have a whole Litany of people that don't do anything the passive. They're what we call it accumulate are not accumulation but a simulation and they want you to assimilate and if you'll see me late then it'll be okay. I still racism that has to be looked at and talked about for sure and if you can get into those passive groups.

37:03 Then things will change because the extreme racist.

37:08 I'm not quite that many although there must be thirty thousand of them. At least I do on a phone with a 30 million nachos.

37:16 Inside with you, I can start the truck here. Yeah, I think the question of my generation might be what to do with all of this like and testicle trauma in incest like all the Redwoods I can come from it. That would be a good place to go to him. I think that the younger generation I thought about this a lot.

37:39 As a parent.

37:41 My children do owe me something and that something is to make the world a better place. So that my life in this world has not been just a transient thing. Do you feel like after this conversation the ones we had before that myself in my generation are going to achieve that for y'all to think so surprisingly stop running my mouth with your statement. I was in

38:15 In the grocery store and Bots and stops on the way. There was a little conversation going there were three.

38:21 Caucasian and one Mexican and they were all somewhere between 26th and 35 Maybe.

38:29 And I told him I said I'm frightened of things won't turn well.

38:34 In the next next election for the next 15-20 years. I said that I don't want to work with crumble and they said to me sir. Don't worry. We going to take care of you.

38:48 I love that that was that was that was good to hear. So I take those things and I take him home and I'll look at them so I can logically and I caught a compound a little bit. What is so bad. I feel like I feel like you guys are in good hands like much like my generation like even though we're a little Rowdy in our weed breath Ryan and all the cool weird said that we do I feel like you guys are in good hands dealing with us. So you're not concerned just for yourselves know we don't have time to be concerned about ourselves because friends and other people before us were concerned about ourselves. So we don't have time the world is literally dying your my generation is going to do some of the worst things any Generations ever seen we shouldn't worry about ourselves. You have to worry about everybody else, especially the black people we have to make sure

39:48 We're taking care of as well as everybody else. Cuz our I really don't know why Liberation depends on everyone else on the planet because it seems to be affected. We have the movements in England. They have the moments in Germany that are trying to have nationalism the way that some people in our current.

40:13 Society of doing hard to keep away from politics. But anyway, I've learned and it's been beneficial for me without a doubt and I I'll feel better about tomorrow because of what we did today like old head like you're not like the old head that you're just like all night and they go talking like you're at your cool when you get it. I have to imprison any other thing is hard for me. Well, thank you for his conversation with me. Good. We should have done this last year, but it's okay we can still do it this year.

41:15 Okay. One of the things about my black experience that it's been beneficial and and fun.

41:28 Is the ability to

41:32 Moving our society and enjoy who we are as for group. It's just

41:39 My wife will sometimes so you did that thing today. I'll see you another black person and not are Harris and it's the sense of belonging. It's a sense of Hi. How are you? Kind of think that's a good feeling.

42:03 I say the question was about like what do I love by Michael Che what do you love? What makes you happy? What makes you happy? Honestly like this terrible. It's not terrible. But it's like when I'm at like one of my family's like Cook-Out barbecue situation and

42:22 The song trita is it treated like a lady. I don't know who it's by. I just the one I hear that song. I know it just takes me somewhere sure. And when I feel like my uncles and aunties like doing the Electric Slide to that, it's just say it's this black its bark and it's yeah, it's

42:41 It's things that we ever held onto for Generations. I love it. I can't wait till she told me she loved it even though

42:53 I love that part.

42:57 Cool